Do I have to level my toon?


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Shadow Lodge 4/5

Holy crap I feel young.

Again.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

After 6 years of trying, I finally got my GF to start playing PFS a few weeks ago. Total nooB. She's still trying to learn "all those funny-shaped dice".
At the game store we play at, from now on, I'm going to make sure she calls her character a 'toon', the GM a 'judge', and ask for a 'cert' after the 'mod'. Oh, man, this is gonna really irritate a bunch of people here -including me. We'll see how this goes. ;)

Scarab Sages 2/5 5/55/55/55/5

I thought 'toon' originated with Disney's Toontown Online. Guess it is older than that?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

I thought it was from 'Who Censored Roger Rabbit?' (the book that the film was based on).

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

I first heard it used in place of the word character playing Everquest in the '90s. I was told back then that it was because we were all playing cartoon characters...

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

So, can I EV train my glass cannon special sweeper in PFS?

Do I get to select max IVs in any stats, and is my PC allowed egg moves, and prev-ed Move Tutor moves?

What held items are still legal?

Liberty's Edge 1/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't refer to my figure as a pawn. I don't refer to my character as a toon. I don't talk about tapping a spell when my character casts it . None if this has to do with my age, however grey in the beard I've become. It is a recognition that different games use different jargon and that using the jargon appropriate to the game in question is an indication that you take the game seriously and you have enough respect for the people that invest their time in it to adopt the local terms. When in Rome...,

Silver Crusade 1/5 *

I don't call my PFS characters a "toon", but I'd love to come up with a decent short version of character. When typing "char" works, but that doesn't work verbally.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

"Chav", it fits most PFS agents I've met.

Dark Archive 2/5

There already is one: PC for Player Character. A term as old as DM.


Since I started this thread, I feel inclined to answer the origins question, as least from the perspective of when I first heard it, and this includes all three words: toon, aggro, and proc - I first heard them in Everquest.

I'll get to leveling my toon straight away...

1/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Personally, I don't get why people get their underwear in a bunch over terms. I'm old school and I have no problem with "toon." In fact, I think it's a great word to use because it's short and easy to say. This is a game, it's not some sacred religion or some memorial honoring the dead.

If there's anything that makes me empathize, however, it is the popularization of "rouge" for rogue. That one bothers me because where something like toon or Acom is useful for efficiency, the proliferation of rouge felt more like intentional stupidification (yes, I made that word up) of the boards where it was used.

Silver Crusade 1/5 *

Nebten wrote:
There already is one: PC for Player Character. A term as old as DM.

I don't like PC. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.
N N 959 wrote:
This is a game, it's not some sacred religion

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?

*

Nefreet wrote:
Woran wrote:
This thread brings back memories

Me, too.

I played a MUD from ~'94 until the early 2000s.

Those were the days.

And the nights. And over break, the days and nights. :) Food? No. We can do that tomorrow....

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

Curaigh wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Woran wrote:
This thread brings back memories

Me, too.

I played a MUD from ~'94 until the early 2000s.

Those were the days.

And the nights. And over break, the days and nights. :) Food? No. We can do that tomorrow....

And sleep was for the weak

4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lamontius wrote:

differentiating that MMO players are not "normal gamers" really bothers me

you are not better or special because you use pencils and dice instead of a keyboard and mouse

By "normal gamer talk", I meant "normal talk among gamers", i.e., "terms that you can reasonably expect anyone in the gaming community at large to understand without explanation." (If I were trying to say "MMO players aren't normal gamers", it would have been punctuated "normal gamer" talk, but that's a pretty subtle grammatical distinction--sorry for the lack of clarity.)

Rather than suggest that MMO players aren't "normal gamers", I'm asking MMO players to recognize that there might be tabletop gamers who don't also play MMOs. I'm the one who's "not normal", in this situation.

On a Pathfinder board, you should only assume that 3.5 and Pathfinder jargon is "normal talk" for your audience. Anything d20 RPG terms outside of that system is iffy, and any terms from any RPG other than a d20 system probably need to be explained. For example, I would not randomly use terms like "DCV" and "PD" and "rPD" without any explanation, because that's jargon from a specific game system instead of "normal talk" for the audience I expect to frequent these boards.

Sczarni

Fromper wrote:

She never said MMO players aren't "normal gamers". She said "treating MMO jargon as 'normal gamer talk' really bothers me". And I kind of agree with her.

I've seen a lot of MMO players who seem to treat all gamers the same and assume that everyone knows their online slang, as if it's universal among gamers just because MMOs are the most popular type of game right now. They need to realize that there are different groups of gamers, each with their own jargon. Online gamers and tabletop gamers are two different groups. There's some overlap, but when one group assumes that everyone from the other group knows their slang, there's going to be confusion.

Having just moved to Las Vegas, I can attest to this. It gets even stranger when you consider many professional and semi-professional gamblers who've been at it for sixty years and have never touched an RPG or MMO consider themselves gamers as well.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nebten wrote:
There already is one: PC for Player Character. A term as old as DM.
I don't like PC. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.

Political Corectness rubs me the wrong way, too.

Silver Crusade 1/5 *

trollbill wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nebten wrote:
There already is one: PC for Player Character. A term as old as DM.
I don't like PC. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.
Political Corectness rubs me the wrong way, too.

I was hoping I wasn't being too subtle.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
On a Pathfinder board, you should only assume that 3.5 and Pathfinder jargon is "normal talk" for your audience. Anything d20 RPG terms outside of that system is iffy, and any terms from any RPG other than a d20 system probably need to be explained. For example, I would not randomly use terms like "DCV" and "PD" and "rPD" without any explanation, because that's jargon from a specific game system instead of "normal talk" for the audience I expect to frequent these boards.

I agree, except for one detail. The assumption around here that all Pathfinder players know 3.5 has been a pet peeve of mine since I started.

I used to play D&D and AD&D 1st edition, back when those were two separate games, along with some other RPGs of the time. Then I went 20ish years without playing any table top RPGs, and when I returned, 4th edition and Pathfinder were the newest versions of the game. I ended up sticking with Pathfinder for the past 3 years, but I've never seen or played 3.5.

So when people mention things that are 3.5 specific and missing from Pathfinder, I notice instantly, and it bugs me.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have to admit, I hate when people say 'toon' when they mean their character as well

I'd also like to see people get away from terms like 'meat shield', 'heal bot', 'boss monster', and dopey abbreviations like 'pally'

Scarab Sages 2/5 5/55/55/55/5

Marc Radle wrote:

I have to admit, I hate when people say 'toon' when they mean their character as well

I'd also like to see people get away from terms like 'meat shield', 'heal bot', 'boss monster', and dopey abbreviations like 'pally'

I don't see that happening any time in the near future.

1/5 * Venture-Agent, Missouri—Blue Springs

It took me a long time in MuDDs and Everquest to stop referring to my characters as PCs. That always seems to confuse people online. I now just refer to them as my characters. I do use 'Main' and Alt' however when referring to my, well Main Character and my Alternate characters, in online games. Of which, I've pretty much played them all.

Oh, and I don't think it got answered yet. But Aggro is another old MUDD and early MMO programming term. I forget exactly what it is short for, other than Aggressive. All it means is the range that that particular 'mob' would respond to the PC. Monsters of course are Aggro (aggressive), while a Merchant NPC is not. Well, except in EQ, when you could attack NPCs accidentally...

Anyway, as a 40 year old P&P role player that also has been playing computer games for as long or longer, I do find the cross-over of terminology and other aspects of the two 'worlds' interesting.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/5 **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nebten wrote:
There already is one: PC for Player Character. A term as old as DM.
I don't like PC. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.

Mac user eh?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dorothy Lindman wrote:


By "normal gamer talk", I meant "normal talk among gamers", i.e., "terms that you can reasonably expect anyone in the gaming community at large to understand without explanation."

On a Pathfinder board, you should only assume that 3.5 and Pathfinder jargon is "normal talk" for your audience. Anything d20 RPG terms outside of that system is iffy, and any terms from any RPG other than a d20 system probably need to be explained.

"Toon" is pretty well established as a synonym for "player character". Any number of people have come here complaining about its use, but not a single one seems to have expressed confusion about what it actually means. Anyone who came into this thread not already knowing would easily figure it out from context.

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
For example, I would not randomly use terms like "DCV" and "PD" and "rPD" without any explanation, because that's jargon from a specific game system instead of "normal talk" for the audience I expect to frequent these boards.

That analogy doesn't hold up - PD and rPD are a) specific Hero System jargon for b) things that don't really exist in Pathfinder. "Toon" may have originated in the MMO playerbase but it a) isn't actual MMO terminology (the documentation and such generally just refer to "characters") and it b) refers to things that exist both in MMOs and tabletop RPGs (i.e., player characters).

Silver Crusade 1/5 *

Tim Statler wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nebten wrote:
There already is one: PC for Player Character. A term as old as DM.
I don't like PC. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way.

Mac user eh?

If I wasn't an online gamer, I would be, but PCs are just so much better for MMOs.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Why do so many people care what terms we use, as long as everyone at the local group understands what's going on? When someone in my group says "We Greyhawk the bodies." I know what they mean, even though I never played Living Greyhawk, and even though that isn't how wealth works in PFS.

Scarab Sages 2/5 5/55/55/55/5

Mystic Lemur wrote:
Why do so many people care what terms we use, as long as everyone at the local group understands what's going on? When someone in my group says "We Greyhawk the bodies." I know what they mean, even though I never played Living Greyhawk, and even though that isn't how wealth works in PFS.

Okay, I'll bite. What is 'Greyhawking' a body, and how illegal is it?

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

As I understand it, the Living Greyhawk campaign was notoriously stingy on gold. In desperation, PCs would loot bodies down to the fillings in their teeth, in order to afford new gear.

Sczarni

Chris Mortika wrote:
As I understand it, the Living Greyhawk campaign was notoriously stingy on gold. In desperation, PCs would loot bodies down to the fillings in their teeth, in order to afford new gear.

O.o

....What does Living Greyhawk have to do with it? I thought that was just standard procedure.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Belabras wrote:
Mystic Lemur wrote:
Why do so many people care what terms we use, as long as everyone at the local group understands what's going on? When someone in my group says "We Greyhawk the bodies." I know what they mean, even though I never played Living Greyhawk, and even though that isn't how wealth works in PFS.
Okay, I'll bite. What is 'Greyhawking' a body, and how illegal is it?

In which state? It includes additional acts that may be illegal on the books in texas.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Belabras wrote:
Mystic Lemur wrote:
Why do so many people care what terms we use, as long as everyone at the local group understands what's going on? When someone in my group says "We Greyhawk the bodies." I know what they mean, even though I never played Living Greyhawk, and even though that isn't how wealth works in PFS.
Okay, I'll bite. What is 'Greyhawking' a body, and how illegal is it?

Basically, in order to get all the possible gold from a Living Greyhawk scenario, you had to make sure you took everything that wasn't nailed down, and, if you could pry it loose, it wasn't nailed down. That process, where you searched an area extensively, stripped all the dead bodies, etc., came to be known as greyhawking the bodies.

Of course, that can be important because of a couple of oddball rules interactions in 3.5, too.

First, LG had what was known as overcap gold, the extra gold in a scenario that was above what was awarded to the PCs for successful completion. It could be spent during the scenario for certain things without affecting the final gold received from the game.

Second, dying was a way to, with overcap, increase your character's Wealth by Level, independent of crafting.

Anecdotally, I had my 9th level Fighter/Barbarian/Pious Templar die during a scenario, and got raised, making him 8th level. At the end of the scenario, it turned out that we had underestimated the amount of overcap gold, rather than just enough to raise my PC, there was enough overcap to have resurrected him, 25K instead of 5K, so we still got full gold rewards for the scenario, despite paying for a raise dead during the course of it. And, of course, that meant my PC was now 8th level with what amounted to 9th level gold...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MrRetsej wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
As I understand it, the Living Greyhawk campaign was notoriously stingy on gold. In desperation, PCs would loot bodies down to the fillings in their teeth, in order to afford new gear.

O.o

....What does Living Greyhawk have to do with it? I thought that was just standard procedure.

In other campaigns such as Living City, the PCs were rich enough not to have to bother with the chump change. Not so with Living Greyhawk, so mining things down to the last copper had special meaning there.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the problem many people have with using terms like pally, toon etc is that they just sound so silly. D&D and Pathfinder are games, of course and meant to be fun - but people are still serious about the game. Kind of like a baseball or soccer player - the game is fun and they love playing it, but they still take the game seriously. If someone starts using silly terms or doing dopey things, (like calling a baseball glove his 'brown catchy thing') it tends to diminish that.

It also reduces immersion, much like someone giving their character a goofy name. If the rest of the group works hard to come up with cool names for their character and then one guys names his character Bob Boogiepants, it immediately makes the game feel silly instead of serious and diminishes the work and effort the rest of the group put into their character and the game.

The same is true when people try to use goofy terms. Calling a character a toon (which is obviously short for cartoon, for crying out loud) just makes the game feel that much more goofy.

Here's a question for you. Let's say you add a new person to your group - a group that loves to play Pathfinder, D&D or whatever and puts a lot of time and energy into making the campaign great. The new person creates his new character and tells everyone "I'm playing a bam bam wacky wack names Beepoo Fudgepants who specializes is using a pokey poke."

The player explains that he like to call fighers 'bam bam wacky wacks' and spears 'pokey pokes'. There, now everyone at the table knows what he means when he uses those terms right? So, should everyone allow him to continue, even though those ridiculous terms make the game feel silly to the others at the table? Or, should the group explain that, even though he might like using 'bam bam wacky wack' for fighter, it's not correct and the rest of the group would like you to start using the proper term

It's the same with toon, pally, heal bot etc. The game has actual terms for these, and I think you should respect the game, the people that created it and the vast majority of people who play it and don't like the dopey terms enough to use the actual, correct terms.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Marc Radle wrote:
(stuff)

It seems like you think people use terms like "toon", "pally" or "healbot" because they just like them better than the actual terms. In reality, those terms are used because they're shorter/faster than the actual terms: "pally" is short for "paladin", "toon" is shorter than "character" (or even "PC"), and "healbot" is waaay shorter than "cleric or oracle who specializes in healing as his primary focus".

It's not an issue of people disrespecting the game by wanting a more lighthearted set of terminology; it's an issue of people wanting to speed up the out-of-character segments (like checking party makeup before the session) so they can get on with actually playing the game.

Your 'bam bam wacky wack' analogy shows that perhaps this didn't occur to you. In the future, if something seems needlessly offensive/disrespectful, perhaps a brief pause to consider other motives might be in order?


Jiggy wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
(stuff)

It seems like you think people use terms like "toon", "pally" or "healbot" because they just like them better than the actual terms. In reality, those terms are used because they're shorter/faster than the actual terms: "pally" is short for "paladin", "toon" is shorter than "character" (or even "PC"), and "healbot" is waaay shorter than "cleric or oracle who specializes in healing as his primary focus".

It's not an issue of people disrespecting the game by wanting a more lighthearted set of terminology; it's an issue of people wanting to speed up the out-of-character segments (like checking party makeup before the session) so they can get on with actually playing the game.

Your 'bam bam wacky wack' analogy shows that perhaps this didn't occur to you. In the future, if something seems needlessly offensive/disrespectful, perhaps a brief pause to consider other motives might be in order?

Whatever the motivation, the effect might still be the same.

Even if a player is using "toon" because it's shorter, it can still shift the tone of the game towards silliness.

So the reason some people don't like them might hold even if the reason other people use them isn't intended to be disrespectful.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

thejeff wrote:

Whatever the motivation, the effect might still be the same.

Even if a player is using "toon" because it's shorter, it can still shift the tone of the game towards silliness.

So the reason some people don't like them might hold even if the reason other people use them isn't intended to be disrespectful.

If Marc Radle understood the terms to be well-intentioned shorthand, he wouldn't have used an analogy in which the goofy terms are used in place of much shorter "real" terms. So although in theory a well-meaning term can still be offensive (for instance, one that's rooted in racism or sexism, even if not meant that way by the speaker), it looked like Marc's experience was perhaps based on a misconception, so I took a chance that perhaps his discomfort could be easily remedied. Couldn't hurt to try, right? :)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

To be fair, bam bam wacky wacks have been overshadowed by laser pew pews since 3P0. While the CoreBeyonce hulky smash 'ems are great with their rage 'em ups, the new AceyGeeWhiz! gave us the compelling hulky spell 'ems, hulky sing 'ems and non-pally divine warrior bible thumpers (which has the best archetype, Bruce pallee)

2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i dont get it

Shadow Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's ok, neither do I.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

*slow clap*

kinevon wrote:
Second, dying was a way to, with overcap, increase your character's Wealth by Level, independent of crafting.

Completely Off-Topic:
Did anyone ever try to abuse the multiclass rules to get 100% XP penalties and play their character forever, amassing all the wealth? Or did the campaign have something to prevent that? It was an amusing thought I had once.
Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Whatever the motivation, the effect might still be the same.

Even if a player is using "toon" because it's shorter, it can still shift the tone of the game towards silliness.

So the reason some people don't like them might hold even if the reason other people use them isn't intended to be disrespectful.

If Marc Radle understood the terms to be well-intentioned shorthand, he wouldn't have used an analogy in which the goofy terms are used in place of much shorter "real" terms. So although in theory a well-meaning term can still be offensive (for instance, one that's rooted in racism or sexism, even if not meant that way by the speaker), it looked like Marc's experience was perhaps based on a misconception, so I took a chance that perhaps his discomfort could be easily remedied. Couldn't hurt to try, right? :)

Oh, I don't think those terms are actually offensive or even intentionally disrespectful necessarily and there's no misconception on my end. I'm sure people using such terms are doing it innocently and mean no harm by them. Oh, and I'm pretty sure I speak for a LOT of people than just me personally :) I think most people just dislike the terms and I offered my opinion as to why. And I also completely agree that offensive and disrespectful is more the realm of racist, sexist or hate speech.

I guess I don't buy the argument that someone uses 'pally' instead of 'paladin' or 'healbot' instead of healer because of some conscious, intellectual desire to choose the most efficient terminology in all cases. I see it more as part laziness and part wish to sound trendy or something. Really, is it that hard to type or say paladin, healer etc? Of course not

And is it really so imperative that conversations such as discussing party make up be distilled down to 3 second code phrases? I don't think taking 5 minutes to actually talk about such things is that big of a deal. Besides, it's kind of insulting to turn to a player who spent hours or even days developing his character and is really excited to play him and say "so, are you the healbot or the meat shield"? Why reduce all the hard work, energy, pride and excitement down to a dopey catch phrase?

I would hope that if someone calling his character a 'toon' and then others explained that the term is pretty silly sounding, is not really a short hand for anything and actually reduces the fun and immersion for everyone else .. I would hope that person would understand and try to change

1/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

ugh

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Marc, there is space in between "I'm have a conscious, intellectual desire to choose the most efficient terminology in all cases in an effort to shave a few seconds off of my conversations" and "I'm lazy".

It is normal for people to use shorthand for terms that they use a lot. Are people who don't say "automatic teller machine" lazy, or do they have a 'conscious, intellectual desire to choose the most efficient terminology in all cases'? Do you say "automatical teller machine"? Why?

Do you have a job? Does your job have any abbreviations or shorthand that you use? If so, which of the categories ('lazy' or 'conscious, intellectual desire to choose the most efficient terminology in all cases') do you fall into?

People using shorthand for common terms is normal, and you do it too.

1/5

because I know and use WoW terms
I cannot roleplay or be respectful

Silver Crusade 1/5 *

Lamontius wrote:

because I know and use WoW terms

I cannot roleplay or be respectful

They totally nerfed monks with the Crane Wing errata.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Or to put it another way, Marc, shorthand terms are so common in everyday life that it would be strange indeed for that to be the reason that you don't like terms like "toon" or "healbot". I suspect there's something else about them that bothers you, rather than the simple fact that it's shorthand for the "real" terms.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, saying toon instead of character is more efficient? Typing or saying pally instead of paladin is a big time savings?

Jiggy, I'm not trying to start anything here. Folks (other than me) were commenting that they disliked the term toon for character and I thought I'd try to offer an explanation as to why, that's all. Toon, in particular, just sounds so silly and childish to a lot of people, it just really rubs the wrong way

Lamontius, not at all! But, if you are playing an RPG at a table with a group of people that don't play World of Warcraft, would you still use World of Warcraft-specific terms, or would you switch to more conventional RPG terms?

1/5

thejeff wrote:

.

Even if a player is using "toon" because it's shorter, it can still shift the tone of the game towards silliness.

That happens when the listener decides to infer something silly.

The first time I herd toon I immediately understood why it was used. I did not think it silly. I can't control what people think. What I can control is what I intend. If someone insists on inferring something not intended, then that's their problem. Obviously there are words and figures of speech which are offensive, regardless of intent. I'm sorry, but the word "toon" is not one of them.

Quote:
So the reason some people don't like them might hold even if the reason other people use them isn't intended to be disrespectful.

No, it doesn't hold. What hold's is that people can always find something to be upset about and then try and then insist other people change behavior or claim offense.

In America, if you aren't a victim, then you are disenfranchised, so people are constantly trying to play the victim.

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