Reclining on the plane


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There have been several discussions online lately about this but I hadn't seen any here so I was curious what folks thought. When sitting on an airliner in coach/economy should you be allowed to recline and how far? Are you entitled to do so if the seat is designed to let you recline? Should you ask the person behind you if it's ok? Should you be allowed to use one of those knee defender devices?

I think we all agree that planes have tight seating in general and understand that to get room you usually have to pay significantly more money.

Personally I never recline and even if I did I would probably ask or at least only recline minimally if someone was sitting behind me. I believe they need to do some engineering to see if they can come up with a seat design that allows some reclining without compromising another passenger's space or use of their tray and without using up very much space on the plane.


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Technically, you can totally recline as far as the seat will go. In some planes that means whacking the person behind you in the face; that's how they cram you in nowadays. So it is not expected, but is usually extremely welcome, for you to ask the person behind you -- in a lot of cases they'll love you for reclining more instead of hating you for reclining less.

Personally, I don't recline my seat unless I absolutely have to. Yeah, no one has ever actually thanked me, but I know how much it sucks when the person in front of you is lying in your lap, and I don't feel like I'm really giving up a lot to spare them that. Then again, in light of other recent threads, other people here will tell you with a straight face that you should recline as far as you daggone well please, breaking the seat to recline further if you can get away with it, because you'll probably never see those people again anyway.

Ultimately, it's up to you.


The only two times I flown in my life the seating didn't seem to support any form of reclining, nor was there enough space to straighten my legs...

Sovereign Court

On international flights you seem to get a lot more room and I wouldnt worry too much about reclining. Smaller jets though there is just nowhere to recline. I mean you can but I wont. A few hours of sitting up isnt going to be an issue.

On a related note, a friend and I always observe the middle seat armrest rule. Person in the middle gets both armrests as a nice bonus for being stuck in the middle. This rule is unwritten but one I like. However as Kirth says some folks will push their arm away while giving them the finger and consider that acceptable behavior because nobody ever does them a courtesy.

Liberty's Edge

I've never figured out how to make it recline.

Sovereign Court

lucky7 wrote:
I've never figured out how to make it recline.

A welcome feature.


It's an interesting question, and I suspect the age and nationality of the responder matters quite a bit.

I first flew frequently in the late 1970s in the U.S. (California to Hawaii, actually. Poor me!), back when planes still had smoking sections (!!). Expected behavior was that the moment the flight attendant announced it was permitted, EVERYONE put their seats back -- you were weird if you didn't, and people would glare at you.

Fast forward to the late 1990's and early 2000's when I had to fly for work throughout the continental U.S. and Canada. I'm fairly short (5'6") and found that even with my laptop case under the seat in front of me, I had plenty of room, even when the person in front of me reclined.
Again, for most flights lasting more than 2 hours, the moment the "you may recline" announcement came, everyone did so.

I would love to know what happened from the time I was laid of in 2003 to my latest flights of 2009+. All of a sudden, I am cramped beyond belief. I don't weigh any more, and I'm not any taller, so either old age is catching up with me, or per-person space has shrunk to the point that even I notice it. Reclining seats come right into your face, intruding on your personal space, and I notice very few people reclining. Those behind them look very put-out.

So my uneducated opinion is that since planes allow it and have specific rules as to when you can and cannot do it, reclining is permissible and blockers should not be.

However, in terms of being polite and humane, reclining on modern sardine cans is unbelievably rude.

Permitted? Yes! Nice? No!

EDIT: And Pan's "Middle Seat" rule? Never heard it, but awesome!


I have to recline some. My posture is horrid, and sitting up straight for any length of time kills my back.

Dark Archive

I'm 6'3". No reclining makes me an unhappy person.


Cr500cricket wrote:
I'm 6'3". No reclining makes me an unhappy person.

Exactly the sort of person I'd love to hear from!

If you recline AND the person in front of you reclines, is it more comfortable than being straight up?

I'd love to see a discussion on, "What makes people the most comfortable given the untenable situation," rather than, "Is this rude?"


I sometimes recline, but I have never noticed on any flights I have had (except maybe international) that the seat actually goes all that far back.

at any rate, I have never been inconvenienced by the person in front of me, nor has anyone had problems when I did recline, so I didn't even realize this was an issue until recently

Sovereign Court

I sometimes recline, it really depends on the flight, whether I need to grab some sleep on the flight, who I am sitting next to, etc. I am 6'3" as well.

And I let the person behind me know that I will be reclining before I do so. Mainly due to almost having my laptop get crushed (the area between the tray table and the back of the seat decreases rather dramatically and the area where the tray table goes becomes a laptop screen trap) by someone who did not let me know they were going to recline before doing so, but also because it is the civil thing to do.


I've flown domesticly in Australia a few times, and to Thailand and back onces.

I've never seen seats reclined all the way back interfear with the person behind them.

Maybe Australia has more space between rows, less incline in their chairs or maybe I'm a poor judge of space.


If I'm in a seat there is no argument: The person in front of me can't recline. Airline policy is trumped by the laws of physics.


I don't recline to be polite to those behind me and am terribly bothered by people who recline. Suddenly my knees are jammed up against their seat, I can't get my tray down properly or see the screen, I can't get anything I might have under the seat, and getting out of my seat becomes a high DC (for me) test of flexibility.


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Pan wrote:
On international flights you seem to get a lot more room and I wouldnt worry too much about reclining.

When we flew to the US in 2008 (I think), we used Iceland Air with a stop in Rejkjavik (Frankfurt - Boston). I was happy with the stop, because the plane was horrendously cramped to me. I´m about 6´4´´ (1.96m), with really long legs. If this was more room than in domestic flights in the US, I probably would not have been able to sit in that kind of plane. If the person in front of me reclined, they basically crushed my knees. This flight is the reason for me not to do long flights anymore - seats with enough space are too expensive, and now my back is getting real bad (the age...), I could not stand being squeezed into a seat for more than, say, two hours. The 8+ hours to the US, combined with the mad customs procedures, are enough for me that I´m deterred from visiting the US again. I´m happy with travelling by train through Germany and Europe these days - with cities like Prague within two and Vienna within four or five hours train ride from Dresden, where we live now, who needs international flights anyway ? ;-)


I have no problems with people reclining in front of me. If some jerk thought to block someone, and that jerk was sitting next to me, they better hope they haven't intruded in MY space in any way...or I'd start blocking them with anything and everything.

They need to get to the bathroom...sorry...that's my space you have to go through.

Want the armrest...but blocked the recliner in front of you...I can see we are going to have violent armrest wars.

Normally, I will get a window seat, no real need to recline there, it works best if you snug your head between the seat and the window to tell the truth, or an aisle seat. The aisle is far more important for simply relaxing...as I have no where else to put my legs normally except cramped up for several hours.

AS I plan accordingly, I haven't had problems with those reclining in front of me.

Bigger problems with people who take up all the luggage space for carry ons (luckily I normally travel light, with a bag that will fit under the seat if needed), or pack their carry on above my aisle seat and then let it fall on my head when we've landed and they are unloading it.

That and people that are large enough that they probably should have gotten two seats instead of one (once again, plan accordingly) and take up all the space of those on either side of them also.

Dark Archive

Legendarius wrote:
When sitting on an airliner in coach/economy should you be allowed to recline and how far? Are you entitled to do so if the seat is designed to let you recline? Should you ask the person behind you if it's ok? Should you be allowed to use one of those knee defender devices?

I don't think you have an automatic right to recline. Yes, seats have the inbuilt functionality, but there are a lot of things that, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. I think it'd be better if they removed the function altogether. If it comes to a situation where, for whatever reason, you must recline, you should definitely ask the person behind you. If they say no, then perhaps asking someone beside you if they will switch seats, and repeating the request with the one behind them, will eventually provide someone open to your request to sacrifice their own comfort for the sake of yours. I don't know about knee defender devices, but I know I liberally use my knees to defend my comfort and much needed leg room.

Sovereign Court

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GreyWolfLord wrote:


Bigger problems with people who take up all the luggage space for carry ons......

don't even get me started on carry on baggage and overheads.


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Pan wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


Bigger problems with people who take up all the luggage space for carry ons......
don't even get me started on carry on baggage and overheads.

The airline world would be vastly improved if the overhead bins were removed entirely.

- Tall people would have more head room while seating themselves.
- We would all no longer have to stand there stupidly in the aisle as some asinine hoarder tried the infamous lift-n-stuff of a 50-pound oversized bag into the overhead bin. Over. And over. And over. Again.

I have come to loathe the overhead bins as few other things in my life, as far too many passengers are willing to stop the entire boarding process just to get their "The store said it was legal size" overstuffed bag into the overhead bin.


NobodysHome wrote:
Pan wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


Bigger problems with people who take up all the luggage space for carry ons......
don't even get me started on carry on baggage and overheads.

The airline world would be vastly improved if the overhead bins were removed entirely.

- Tall people would have more head room while seating themselves.
- We would all no longer have to stand there stupidly in the aisle as some asinine hoarder tried the infamous lift-n-stuff of a 50-pound oversized bag into the overhead bin. Over. And over. And over. Again.

I have come to loathe the overhead bins as few other things in my life, as far too many passengers are willing to stop the entire boarding process just to get their "The store said it was legal size" overstuffed bag into the overhead bin.

Good lord no. Then I'd have to deal with baggage every time. And I travel light. Never had any problem fitting my bag into the bin.

Sovereign Court

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Its gotten ridiculous when it comes to overhead bags. people bring the hugest heaviest small bags they can pack. Then fight for overhead spots. I used to get stuck at the back of the plane then I have to sit and wait for Granny Smith to get her bag down and wheel it out. After granny smith its Cheapo McPacks everything and his borderline rule breaking bags with his family.

I have had a lot of luck going up to the desk and telling them I'll check my bag if they wave the fee and move me to the front. Works more often than not. So many people bring so many bags they always need folks to check theirs.


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thejeff wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Pan wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


Bigger problems with people who take up all the luggage space for carry ons......
don't even get me started on carry on baggage and overheads.

The airline world would be vastly improved if the overhead bins were removed entirely.

- Tall people would have more head room while seating themselves.
- We would all no longer have to stand there stupidly in the aisle as some asinine hoarder tried the infamous lift-n-stuff of a 50-pound oversized bag into the overhead bin. Over. And over. And over. Again.

I have come to loathe the overhead bins as few other things in my life, as far too many passengers are willing to stop the entire boarding process just to get their "The store said it was legal size" overstuffed bag into the overhead bin.

Good lord no. Then I'd have to deal with baggage every time. And I travel light. Never had any problem fitting my bag into the bin.

My brother's the same; 6'1" and never checks baggage, but I've traveled with him and it's just, "Walk down the aisle, throw my bag in an empty space, move on."

The problem is the usual: A few poorly-behaved passengers turn what SHOULD be a simple "shove-n-forget" into an endless flight delay. I've seen flights delayed by 15-20 minutes just by the overhead bins.

Either flight attendants enforce a, "If you can't casually put it up there, you can't bring it," policy (which they won't), or they stop allowing it.

I'm tired of being late because other people can't lift their own "carry-on" bags...

EDIT: It's gotten to the point that we *always* drive the 7 hours to L.A. because even though the flight is technically 90 minutes, adding getting to the airport and through security (1 hour), the inevitable delay due to oversized carry-ons (15 minutes), car rental (30 minutes), and driving where we're going (30-60 minutes), we're suddenly perilously close to taking just as much time by plane. *And* it costs more.
Next year we're strongly considering driving the 12 hours to Seattle rather than flying, again because flying is such a nightmare dealing with people who can't manage their carry-ons.
We've never had an issue with security, or parking, or ticketing... but carry-ons... *Shudder*.


I'm 6'2'' and I fly for work basically every week. I recline a little because even on short flights if I don't it hurts my back. I try not to lay all the way back 1) because I don't want to and 2) because I'd rather not be in the lap of the person behind me.

If the person in front of me reclines as much as they can, which isn't much, it can be problematic for my knees, but not devastatingly so. If i'm ever on a flight longer than 2 hours I'll purchase an upgraded seat.

The best plan would be for the airlines not to jam us in like sardines, but for the time being I'll work with what I have.


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Regarding Overhead bags:

As mentioned I travel for work. I never check a bag. Mostly because it takes far too long to pick things up at baggage claim assuming it makes it there at all. If i'm only traveling for three days it's just not worth the hassle.

That being said I have a very specifically sized roller bag. It fits precisely the way it should. Additionally, it takes me about 5 seconds to stow it and 2 seconds to retrieve. I've got it down to a science.

I've seen plenty of people who simply fail to understand that the plane is not their living room. That topic is endless so i'll stick to the baggage thing. Loose, large, and/or misshapen bags are the worst. It doesn't help that typically they are carried by some of the most scatterbrained people I've ever witnessed. The kind of people that you watch for about 10 seconds and wonder, "Who ties your shoes for you?"

At 6'2'' 200 lbs I am what one might call "a big guy." As such I tend to help small, elderly, frail, and otherwise slow people with their bags. It's not a problem and it's generally altruistic. However, I still wonder when they were packing how exactly they were planning on getting the bag that weighs as much as they do into the overhead bin. I suppose some people rely on the kindness of strangers.

Anyway, I have no real points to make. I'm just ranting.


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Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Regarding Overhead bags:

As mentioned I travel for work. I never check a bag. Mostly because it takes far too long to pick things up at baggage claim assuming it makes it there at all. If i'm only traveling for three days it's just not worth the hassle.

That being said I have a very specifically sized roller bag. It fits precisely the way it should. Additionally, it takes me about 5 seconds to stow it and 2 seconds to retrieve. I've got it down to a science.

I've seen plenty of people who simply fail to understand that the plane is not their living room. That topic is endless so i'll stick to the baggage thing. Loose, large, and/or misshapen bags are the worst. It doesn't help that typically they are carried by some of the most scatterbrained people I've ever witnessed. The kind of people that you watch for about 10 seconds and wonder, "Who ties your shoes for you?"

At 6'2'' 200 lbs I am what one might call "a big guy." As such I tend to help small, elderly, frail, and otherwise slow people with their bags. It's not a problem and it's generally altruistic. However, I still wonder when they were packing how exactly they were planning on getting the bag that weighs as much as they do into the overhead bin. I suppose some people rely on the kindness of strangers.

Anyway, I have no real points to make. I'm just ranting.

We like your rants, Tiny Coffee Golem!

And I really do want to emphasize: I see a ton of "professional" travelers who are NOT part of the problem.

The problem is the 10% of passengers who have no concept of what they are doing and delay everyone else, and the flight attendants are unwilling to "Just Say No" to them...


NobodysHome wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

...

Anyway, I have no real points to make. I'm just ranting.

We like your rants, Tiny Coffee Golem!

And I really do want to emphasize: I see a ton of "professional" travelers who are NOT part of the problem.

The problem is the 10% of passengers who have no concept of what they are doing and delay everyone else, and the flight attendants are unwilling to "Just Say No" to them...

I do wish there were professional traveler only flights. Basically you can't get on these mytical flight without booking through your company website. No kids. No "Civilians." Just get on. Stow your shit. Sit down. Then wait patiently to order our mid-flight Vodka Tonics. Also, no talking. The only acceptable phrases are, "pardon me," "thank you,: and "Vodka Tonic Please." That's it. Everyone get on your laptop/device or read your paper. I don't care what you do, but STFU so I can ready my e-book in peace. I have noise cancelling headphones not for the plane noise, but for the inane chatter I can't help but overhear.

*sigh* in a perfect world.

I was on a 2 hour flight surrounded by some teenage cheerleader squad. I actually couldn't understand what they were saying, but they were saying it for two hours plus. It was all very very emphatic with lots of hand motions, so I'm sure it was a terribly important conversation. /sarcasm I felt like Jane Goodall.

I imagine that's what hell would be like.

Edit: In summary I'm not a fan of being forced into situations with "the unwashed masses." I just want to get to work then home. I'd prefer not to have to get on a bus full of zoo animals in order to do so. Teleportation technology cannot get here fast enough.


NobodysHome wrote:


EDIT: It's gotten to the point that we *always* drive the 7 hours to L.A. because even though the flight is technically 90 minutes, adding getting to the airport and through security (1 hour), the inevitable delay due to oversized carry-ons (15 minutes), car rental (30 minutes), and driving where we're going (30-60 minutes), we're suddenly perilously close to taking just as much time by plane. *And* it costs more.

Of course, you'd lose much more time than the oversized carry-on delay if you had to wait for baggage.

Mind you, if I got to bring a carry-on bag and no one else did, that'd be great. :)


thejeff wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:


EDIT: It's gotten to the point that we *always* drive the 7 hours to L.A. because even though the flight is technically 90 minutes, adding getting to the airport and through security (1 hour), the inevitable delay due to oversized carry-ons (15 minutes), car rental (30 minutes), and driving where we're going (30-60 minutes), we're suddenly perilously close to taking just as much time by plane. *And* it costs more.

Of course, you'd lose much more time than the oversized carry-on delay if you had to wait for baggage.

Mind you, if I got to bring a carry-on bag and no one else did, that'd be great. :)

Continuing the epic derail...

You'd be surprised. For my job I had to take a bunch of hardware with me so I *had* to check my baggage. Every. Single. Flight.

Fetching my checked baggage never took more than 15 minutes. Except at Oakland International. They're AMAZING in their outstanding slowness. And I never lost a work bag. Two personal bags on my homebound flights, but both were found the next day...
EDIT: Lost by... SURPRISE! Oakland International...


I am a large man. I am somewhat overweight, but my issue on airplanes isnt related to that, its that I am large. My legs and hips are thick, not because of fat, but because I play soccer, and I run. My shoulders are wide. I could be anerexic, my shoulders would still be wider then the typical airline seat.

My size makes flying 'economy' very unpleasant, in particular because the size of my legs, hips and rear end means I am effectively elevated compared to most people. This makes reclining an issue for me since regardless of my posture, this will bring the seat in front of me in contact with my legs.

We all know airlines have in recent years added seats to coach to up profits. That means less space. For example, recently I flew from new york to europe. I made the mistake of flying united to london, but on the way back I flew luftansa. It was the same 747 plane, but there was a dramatic difference in the leg room between united's flight and luftansa.

Most of the airline seats were initially designed for the amount of space luftansa and most european carriers allow between seats. Typical american airlines have significantly less room now. So the fact that you are able to recline, doesnt really make it ok.

The seat isnt being used in the manner it was designed for by the airlines. Particulary on domestic flights, if you recline, you are being a jerk. Plane and simple. Unless you have some sort of medical issue, you are placeing your comfort above that of the person behind you. In my book that is never ok.


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First World Problems, amirite?

Sovereign Court

On the topic of waiting for baggage, its actually gotten sooooo much faster because nobody checks anymore. I probably should shut up about this little secret but I have been off the plane and had my bags in hand before people on the plane have gotten out while waiting for overheads to come down and get out.


Pan wrote:
On the topic of waiting for baggage, its actually gotten sooooo much faster because nobody checks anymore. I probably should shut up about this little secret but I have been off the plane and had my bags in hand before people on the plane have gotten out while waiting for overheads to come down and get out.

The few times I've had to check a bag I've had the opposite experience. I flew into Dallas a few weeks ago and it took 30 minutes to get my bag. The poor girl from the car service kept having to have the driver circle the airport.


Pan wrote:
On the topic of waiting for baggage, its actually gotten sooooo much faster because nobody checks anymore. I probably should shut up about this little secret but I have been off the plane and had my bags in hand before people on the plane have gotten out while waiting for overheads to come down and get out.

Indeed except on international flights, where checking is still common, then its slow as heck, but those are also generally larger capacity planes.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Pan wrote:
On the topic of waiting for baggage, its actually gotten sooooo much faster because nobody checks anymore. I probably should shut up about this little secret but I have been off the plane and had my bags in hand before people on the plane have gotten out while waiting for overheads to come down and get out.
The few times I've had to check a bag I've had the opposite experience. I flew into Dallas a few weeks ago and it took 30 minutes to get my bag. The poor girl from the car service kept having to have the driver circle the airport.

Yeah, last time I had checked baggage we got out, from fairly far back in the plane, though without any great struggle with bags that I remember, walked forever through the airport to get to the baggage claim, then still waited a good 15-20 minutes before bags even started coming.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I almost never use the overhead bins. I always stuff my bag under the seat where I can get to my snacks and entertainment.


Kolokotroni wrote:
The seat isnt being used in the manner it was designed for by the airlines. Particulary on domestic flights, if you recline, you are being a jerk. Plane and simple. Unless you have some sort of medical issue, you are placeing your comfort above that of the person behind you. In my book that is never ok.

I disagree with this. If you just arbitrarily throw your seat all the way back, then yes, you're a jerk. It's a seat, not a couch. (See "not your living room" above)

I recline my seat SLIGHTLY (2-3 inches) because that's the only way that i don't have back pain after sitting there for 2 hours. Now I don't have a "medical condition" so much as the seat is just that uncomfortable. It's disgraceful how most airlines treat people. One less row on the plane is sufficient to solve most of the problems we've mentioned. Since there's not a better option we'll continue to fly because we have to.

I too am big, but not fat. My shoulders alone are wider than the seat and there's precisely nothing I can do about that short of amputating an arm. I'm not asking for much, but I'd rather not amputate an arm just to be polite.


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I have "feelings" on this subject.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I almost never use the overhead bins. I always stuff my bag under the seat where I can get to my snacks and entertainment.

I'd love if I could fit three days worth of work clothes into my backpack. Sadly, my trusty roller bag will have to remain as part of my arsenal.


Kolokotroni wrote:

I am a large man. I am somewhat overweight, but my issue on airplanes isnt related to that, its that I am large. My legs and hips are thick, not because of fat, but because I play soccer, and I run. My shoulders are wide. I could be anerexic, my shoulders would still be wider then the typical airline seat.

My size makes flying 'economy' very unpleasant, in particular because the size of my legs, hips and rear end means I am effectively elevated compared to most people. This makes reclining an issue for me since regardless of my posture, this will bring the seat in front of me in contact with my legs.

We all know airlines have in recent years added seats to coach to up profits. That means less space. For example, recently I flew from new york to europe. I made the mistake of flying united to london, but on the way back I flew luftansa. It was the same 747 plane, but there was a dramatic difference in the leg room between united's flight and luftansa.

Most of the airline seats were initially designed for the amount of space luftansa and most european carriers allow between seats. Typical american airlines have significantly less room now. So the fact that you are able to recline, doesnt really make it ok.

The seat isnt being used in the manner it was designed for by the airlines. Particulary on domestic flights, if you recline, you are being a jerk. Plane and simple. Unless you have some sort of medical issue, you are placeing your comfort above that of the person behind you. In my book that is never ok.

It's all part of the competition for lower airfare. Less room between seats means more seats on the plane. As much as everyone complains about service and space and everything else, people consistently go for the cheaper option, probably without realizing what they're driving.

Are those european carriers regulated in the ways that US carriers no longer are?


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

...

Anyway, I have no real points to make. I'm just ranting.

We like your rants, Tiny Coffee Golem!

And I really do want to emphasize: I see a ton of "professional" travelers who are NOT part of the problem.

The problem is the 10% of passengers who have no concept of what they are doing and delay everyone else, and the flight attendants are unwilling to "Just Say No" to them...

I do wish there were professional traveler only flights. Basically you can't get on these mytical flight without booking through your company website. No kids. No "Civilians." Just get on. Stow your s&%*. Sit down. Then wait patiently to order our mid-flight Vodka Tonics. Also, no talking. The only acceptable phrases are, "pardon me," "thank you,: and "Vodka Tonic Please." That's it. Everyone get on your laptop/device or read your paper. I don't care what you do, but STFU so I can ready my e-book in peace. I have noise cancelling headphones not for the plane noise, but for the inane chatter I can't help but overhear.

*sigh* in a perfect world.

This is why business class exists. Or do you somehow think that your airline that excludes a huge portion of its potential customers would somehow not cost more per flight? If an air carrier catered exclusively to business passengers, they would invariably have fewer passengers per flight, meaning costs would be higher. Effectively every ticket on such an airline would cost what a business class ticket costs, maybe even what a first class ticket costs. Not that you would mind flying everywhere first class ofcourse, but it would cost.

From your description I presume you were flying economy. There is zero chance of you having economy prices on flights without said unwashed masses. The numbers simply arent there.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I'd love if I could fit three days worth of work clothes into my backpack. Sadly, my trusty roller bag will have to remain as part of my arsenal.

Well, I don't have the problem with checked bags, since I'm never on a time crunch when I fly.

(Since the only flying I do anymore is PaizoCon.)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I almost never use the overhead bins. I always stuff my bag under the seat where I can get to my "snacks and entertainment".

Is that what they call whiskey and porno mags these days?


Kolokotroni wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

...

Anyway, I have no real points to make. I'm just ranting.

We like your rants, Tiny Coffee Golem!

And I really do want to emphasize: I see a ton of "professional" travelers who are NOT part of the problem.

The problem is the 10% of passengers who have no concept of what they are doing and delay everyone else, and the flight attendants are unwilling to "Just Say No" to them...

I do wish there were professional traveler only flights. Basically you can't get on these mytical flight without booking through your company website. No kids. No "Civilians." Just get on. Stow your s&%*. Sit down. Then wait patiently to order our mid-flight Vodka Tonics. Also, no talking. The only acceptable phrases are, "pardon me," "thank you,: and "Vodka Tonic Please." That's it. Everyone get on your laptop/device or read your paper. I don't care what you do, but STFU so I can ready my e-book in peace. I have noise cancelling headphones not for the plane noise, but for the inane chatter I can't help but overhear.

*sigh* in a perfect world.

This is why business class exists. Or do you somehow think that your airline that excludes a huge portion of its potential customers would somehow not cost more per flight? If an air carrier catered exclusively to business passengers, they would invariably have fewer passengers per flight, meaning costs would be higher. Effectively every ticket on such an airline would cost what a business class ticket costs, maybe even what a first class ticket costs. Not that you would mind flying everywhere first class ofcourse, but it would cost.

From your description I presume you were flying economy. There is zero chance of you having economy prices on flights without said unwashed masses. The numbers simply arent there.

I said "perfect world" not "realistic."

However, business class only solves the legroom issue and that only to a small degree. It does not solve any of the other issues.

Sovereign Court

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I almost never use the overhead bins. I always stuff my bag under the seat where I can get to my snacks and entertainment.
I'd love if I could fit three days worth of work clothes into my backpack. Sadly, my trusty roller bag will have to remain as part of my arsenal.

Yeap, when on business I couldn't get away with just a backpack if I tired.

Shadow Lodge

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NobodysHome wrote:
Is that what they call whiskey and porno mags these days?

Did they ever NOT call them that?


thejeff wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

I am a large man. I am somewhat overweight, but my issue on airplanes isnt related to that, its that I am large. My legs and hips are thick, not because of fat, but because I play soccer, and I run. My shoulders are wide. I could be anerexic, my shoulders would still be wider then the typical airline seat.

My size makes flying 'economy' very unpleasant, in particular because the size of my legs, hips and rear end means I am effectively elevated compared to most people. This makes reclining an issue for me since regardless of my posture, this will bring the seat in front of me in contact with my legs.

We all know airlines have in recent years added seats to coach to up profits. That means less space. For example, recently I flew from new york to europe. I made the mistake of flying united to london, but on the way back I flew luftansa. It was the same 747 plane, but there was a dramatic difference in the leg room between united's flight and luftansa.

Most of the airline seats were initially designed for the amount of space luftansa and most european carriers allow between seats. Typical american airlines have significantly less room now. So the fact that you are able to recline, doesnt really make it ok.

The seat isnt being used in the manner it was designed for by the airlines. Particulary on domestic flights, if you recline, you are being a jerk. Plane and simple. Unless you have some sort of medical issue, you are placeing your comfort above that of the person behind you. In my book that is never ok.

It's all part of the competition for lower airfare. Less room between seats means more seats on the plane. As much as everyone complains about service and space and everything else, people consistently go for the cheaper option, probably without realizing what they're driving.

Are those european carriers regulated in the ways that US carriers no longer are?

Agree, I am never going to just pick the cheapest flight again. I was headed to a very expensive 2 week 'vacation' for my brothers wedding, so I sort of had to go on the cheap. But in the future, I wont fly an american carrier again, period.

And yea those european airlines have far more regulations on not being allowed to make passengers miserable. I particularly liked my hop with aegean airlines (greek airline) where they offered as snack to the passengers even before the saftey briefing was finished. Boy do they know their customers (never deal with a hungry Greek, we are intolerable).

And also there is the fact that European airlines have real competition. Eurail. It is an entirely reasonable option for a European traveling within Europe to take a train instead of plane. Competing with Trains means comfort has to be a priority. Because there isnt a monumental difference in the time it takes to fly vs take a train from london to paris. But for the price of a plane ticket, I can probably get a cabin on a train if I shared it with one other person (I generally dont travel alone). A few hours longer travel time is generally worth the comfort of train travel to alot of people.

Liberty's Edge

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Regarding Overhead bags:

At 6'2'' 200 lbs I am what one might call "a big guy."

If you are a big guy what am I at 6'6" and around 280? If I am flying cattle far my knees are already into the seat ahead of me before anyone tries to recline (not counting exit rows). That is why we tend to fly 1st class these days (that and the 3 free checked back with a higher weight limit). :)


I flew on Air Emirates from Rio to Argentina. It was AMAZING! I was in coach and it was still AMAZING! Friendly, educated, and poised staff. Beautiful spacious plane. The mean they served was actually quite good. The Flan was especially and surprisingly good.

I'd fly them again in a heartbeat and i'd even be willing to pay more.


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Kolokotroni wrote:
And also there is the fact that European airlines have real competition. Eurail. It is an entirely reasonable option for a European traveling within Europe to take a train instead of plane. Competing with Trains means comfort has to be a priority. Because there isnt a monumental difference in the time it takes to fly vs take a train from london to paris. But for the price of a plane ticket, I can probably get a cabin on a train if I shared it with one other person (I generally dont travel alone). A few hours longer travel time is generally worth the comfort of train travel to alot of people.

God, I'd love to have a good rail system in the US.

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