Voadam |
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The Temeraire series has dragons in armor when they go to war and it feels appropriate and in genre.
When I ran Demon God's Fane it had an encounter with a vrock in nonmagical plate mail. It felt out of genre for the demon and metagame cheesy in application to boost AC with low value loot. I don't picture most fiends with armor.
I prefer 4e's style where they have their stats based on their combat role and their equipment is mostly descriptive. So a normal ogre is a brute with low AC, high hp, and high damage where a civilized ogre soldier wears full plate, has high ac but is not as brutal on damage as his brute cousin.
Voadam |
wraithstrike wrote:Hmm. On this point, I may have been calculating CR wrong? At least in my homebrew, I've always used the creatures treasure to add to it's equipment where appropriate, and never adjusted the CR. I thought the monster creation chart was a starting point and appropriate WBL treasure was added after the fact without adjusting CR. I do try to stay within the guidelines for treasure percentages (25% for armor as an example).Because giving them armor takes them outside of their CR range. As an example throwing even a chain shirt on a monster give it +4 AC. A +1 cloak of resistance gives it a boost to all saves. Give it an amulet of might fist or a weapon, and its average attack and damage go up.
If you look at the monster creation chart even boosting AC, attacks, an saves by as small as +1 is enough to warrant a boost to another CR category.
I am not saying it makes someone a bad GM. I am just answering the question, and if a GM runs for an optimized group I actually recommend the monster using the treasure.
Now some monsters such as giants use this treasure to meet their CR ratings, but improving on it still bumps them up a CR.
CR is supposed to be a rough measure of combat challenge. That challenge is based in large part on the combat stats. As the combat stats go up the CR should too.
Step 2: Target Statistics
Once you have a creature's type and CR determined, use Table: Monster Statistics by CR to determine its approximate statistics by CR. These values are a rough guideline only. You will notice that many of the existing monsters in this book do not follow these guidelines exactly. Most monsters excel in one of these areas, usually in the amount of damage dealt, but lag in one or two other areas to help balance them out. When referring to Table: Monster Statistics by CR, keep the following points in mind.
CR: This is the approximate CR of the monster. This number might change as design progresses.
. . .
Step 7: Other Statistics
Using Table: Monster Statitics by CR, Table: Creature Statistics by Type, and Table: Statistics Summary, you can now determine many of the creature's other statistics.
When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average AC. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR.
When determining a creature's attack bonuses, refer to the guidelines from Table: Monster Statistics by CR based on the creature's CR. If the bonus is too low, consider increasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or increasing the amount of damage it deals to above the average. If the bonus is too high, consider decreasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or decrease the amount of damage it deals. If this value is significantly different, and the creature is intended to rely on melee or ranged attacks, consider adjusting the creature's CR.
Use Table: Average Die Results to determine the number of damage dice, combined with damage bonuses, that the creature needs to reach the average damage for its CR. The creature might need additional or more damaging attacks to approach the average. Remember that creatures that primarily deal damage with other abilities, such as spells, do not need to meet the average damage for their attacks. You can also use Table: Average Die Results to determine a creature's average hit points. Remember that PC class levels provide the maximum number of hit points at 1st level.
Repeat this process for a creature's saving throws. If the saving throws are too high, consider altering the ability scores on which they are based.
When determining a creature's speed, first decide if it has any alternative modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Most Medium creatures have a base speed of 30 feet. Quadrupeds and Large creatures increase this by 10 feet each. Smaller creatures decrease this base speed by 10 feet. If a creature is particularly fast or slow, modify the base speed by 10 feet. Burrow and climb speeds are usually half a creature's base speed, while flying speeds are roughly double. Remember to give a creature the appropriate skills for any unusual movement methods.
. . .
Step 9: Treasure
A creature should have an amount of treasure appropriate to its CR. See Table: XP and GP Values by CR for a list of treasure totals based on CR. For some creatures, their treasure consists of the loot from their recent meals strewn across their lairs, while for others it consists of a greed-fueled hoard or even gear it uses in combat. Make sure to account for any weapons or armor that the creature is using, as determined by step 7.
Te'Shen |
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Lucy_Valentine |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
if you have trouble imagining a dragon in platemail, imagine a dragon in padded armor.
Or in Hide - specifically, fur. Fluffy dragon cuddles!
I know this is focusing in on one point and not the large question. But dragons and armor seem impractical. It would be very expensive to make a set of barding for a dragon. Especially since dragons continue to grow as the get older. For the same reason creatures molt, armor is impractical. They could use it for a short while, but then they'd outgrow it and would have to pay to have another entire set of armor made. Rinse and repeat and that's a good chunk of their horde
Maybe they enchant it so it always fits? I mean, if bows can be Adaptive, and Wild can be an armour enchantment, "stretch to fit me" could be an armour enchantment too.
It's not like humanoids don't already have the use of it - they effectively get it for free on every other humanoid armour within their size category.
Come to think of it, how about a variant of Wild that just let them polymorph into a humanoid, put on the enchanted armour, and then it's always with them... that way you don't even know they're wearing it.
Kimera757 |
Most dragons can't cast fickle winds until they are old or very old. What are they using to survive in the meantime?
As soon as a dragon can cast Mage Armor, they already have a pretty good AC. Given a little time to buff, and a dragon can cast Shield as well. Or even Mirror Image!
Unlike armor, a dragon doesn't have to go out of their way to collect specialized materials to cast most spells (and since a non-shapeshifting dragon can't really go shopping, the dragon must either collect minions or extort nearby areas for such items).
A smaller dragon also has to only pick fights with weaker opponents (not CR-appropriate fights) or retreat. Given draconic arrogance, probably a lot of younger dragons do get killed when facing stronger opponents (as they incorrectly determine the relative power of their opponent). If a dragon finds itself ambushed by a heck of a lot of archers hiding under some trees or in bushes, said dragon had better start flying as fast as possible!
Lucy_Valentine |
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I once put spiked leather armor on a shark.
...and lasers? I mean, I approve either way.
All players are alike. :-)
No. No we are not.
It is much harder to believe a dragon can put on armor without assistance than imagining a humanoid doing the same.
Hmmm... if the armour was mail, then it would be kind of tubular. The dragon could crawl into it.
Of course, getting it off would be a trick. They'd need to attack the bottom edge to a hook or three, and then walk backwards through the tube. It's going to be a little undignified.Or they could use magic.
Oh, they could make the tube significantly wider than themselves, and then belt it tight in several places. Or do some sort of scale armour thing, again with belts. Without a good idea how fat they get, it's hard to visualise the nature of the problem, but I'm confident it's solvable.
...and now I'm imagining a dragon wearing patchwork dragonhide armour out of other dragons they've killed, just to make a point about how dangerous they are.
Gray |
Most dragons can't cast fickle winds until they are old or very old. What are they using to survive in the meantime?
In an AP or in a Homebrew?
In an AP they tend to be solo encounters, and I typically ignore the tactics as written. I'm sure the tactics I use are obvious (at least to you and most people on this board). They tend to use environment to keep foes at a distance, or fly. If the AP places them in a small room, they move and go to a place where they have more of an advantage. If an alarm has been raised, they always team up with allies if available (and if it makes sense).
In my homebrew, dragons of any power tend to have slaves (smiths to create things, squires to tend them, sentinels to warn them, even slave body guards). They tend to live in "nests" with a great wyrm having several weaker dragons in its service. Younger dragons don't branch out unless they are rebelling, or feel they are strong enough to survive in a world that can easily match their power. In fact, I even keep dragons with armor as rather rare. A dragon wearing armor is most likely forced to do so my his/her queen wyrm. A ruling tyrant dragon most likely relies on other magic for protection. As well as layers of bodyguards, and systems to give her notice of any intruder or attack.
Bob of Westgate |
In the right circumstances, I could see the argument for dragons wearing armor. If it knows the PC's are coming and has time to prepare for the encounter, yes. However if they manage to ambush it in it's lair and catch it unprepared, I don't see why it would be wearing armor. You don't see adventurers sitting at home watching middle age ESPN on their magic mirrors in Full Plate. And you especially don't see them at home, in their off time sleeping in heavy armor. Dragons aren't exempt from the sleeping in heavy armor rules.
LazarX |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A dragon has managed to survive for as long as it has because it did whatever it had to and was smart enough to know what to do. Do you think that centuries of bigger more powerful dragons tryin to kill you hasn't molded every dragon into a perfect survivalist? If it doesn't use armor it's going to be doing SOMETHING to stay alive. Armor is just one such possibility.
Excpet that generally it doesn't happen. Dragons don't go out hunting other dragons. At most they may have a territory dispute until the weaker one leaves. Actually the reverse happens, Dragons are so apex, they become complacent. And spending all those centuries sleeping under your hoard isn't exactly battle practise.
Bob of Westgate |
Bandw2 wrote:if you have trouble imagining a dragon in platemail, imagine a dragon in padded armor.Or in Hide - specifically, fur. Fluffy dragon cuddles!
Bob of Westgate wrote:I know this is focusing in on one point and not the large question. But dragons and armor seem impractical. It would be very expensive to make a set of barding for a dragon. Especially since dragons continue to grow as the get older. For the same reason creatures molt, armor is impractical. They could use it for a short while, but then they'd outgrow it and would have to pay to have another entire set of armor made. Rinse and repeat and that's a good chunk of their hordeMaybe they enchant it so it always fits? I mean, if bows can be Adaptive, and Wild can be an armour enchantment, "stretch to fit me" could be an armour enchantment too.
It's not like humanoids don't already have the use of it - they effectively get it for free on every other humanoid armour within their size category.
Come to think of it, how about a variant of Wild that just let them polymorph into a humanoid, put on the enchanted armour, and then it's always with them... that way you don't even know they're wearing it.
Humanoids don't have the stretch to fit me. Granted, it's assumed that if you are the same size category you can wear the armor. But I was referring to the fact that dragons keep growing in size catagories. There is no enchantment that I'm aware of in Pathfinder that allows a creature/character to wear armor that is sized for a smaller size catagory
Simon Legrande |
FanaticRat wrote:Because I don't feel like statting and doing purchases for every single friggin' enemy. Building one good NPC takes long enough, I don't want to do that 15 more times for like two or three sessions of gameplay, and potentially have that all wasted or backfire.It doesn't take that long. You already have the monsters stat. You already have to generate the treasure. It doesn't take that much longer to add a few extra plus into the monster stat block. You aren't rewriting the entire monster, just boosting a couple of things.
Does it take longer than zero seconds? Because it takes zero seconds to use something right out of the book. There are plenty of times when you just need a creature out on the field.
I'd use outfitted creatures maybe a handful of times and only when I can guarantee the party will face them.
Gray |
Renegadeshepherd wrote:Excpet that generally it doesn't happen. Dragons don't go out hunting other dragons. At most they may have a territory dispute until the weaker one leaves. Actually the reverse happens, Dragons are so apex, they become complacent. And spending all those centuries sleeping under your hoard isn't exactly battle practise.A dragon has managed to survive for as long as it has because it did whatever it had to and was smart enough to know what to do. Do you think that centuries of bigger more powerful dragons tryin to kill you hasn't molded every dragon into a perfect survivalist? If it doesn't use armor it's going to be doing SOMETHING to stay alive. Armor is just one such possibility.
I understand this, but I've never really liked this line of reasoning. I've heard that applied to demons/devils/etc. Creatures that have been around for time untold should have some decent tactics when dealing with shorter lived races. Yes, demons probably spend most of their time fantasizing about murder etc, but even if they aren't 20th level warriors, they've had more time to figure out adequate tactics to deal with mere mortals.
I mean yes, it makes sense that the occasional villain/BBEG is so bad ass that he becomes complacent / let's his guard down / becomes soft/ leaves the good guy hanging over the pit of crocodiles without makes sure he's dead / leaves an obvious gap for a pilot to destroy the deathstar, but . . . I guess I feel lazy using that as a DM. They should at least have a well planned security system if they aren't going to keep up their skills.
Zhangar |
I'll note that most exemplar outsider creatures travel light because their at-will teleportation abilities cap at 50 lbs of gear or less.
A vrock-sized suit of full plate, while a relatively cheap way to add +9 AC, would weigh too much for a vrock to take with it when teleporting.
Also, keep in mind that the armor check penalty applies to all attack rolls if the wearer isn't proficient in the armor. Presumably your dragon with full plate is actually proficient in it or eating a -5 or so on all of its rolls.
I'll assign equipment to critters based on how much I care about that particular critter and whether I'm okay with the PCs getting the treasure.
I'd fully expect high level characters to be able to sell anything they get - Axis is a thing, after all.
Kain Darkwind |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course dragons wear armor. They just don't like full plate because knights.
My G-D. I'd never seen that before...and I just lost an hour of my time. I'm not at the end either. And I've yet to read anything before the one you linked to.
I'm not sure if I should bless or curse you.
bookrat |
Shadowdweller wrote:Of course dragons wear armor. They just don't like full plate because knights.My G-D. I'd never seen that before...and I just lost an hour of my time. I'm not at the end either. And I've yet to read anything before the one you linked to.
I'm not sure if I should bless or curse you.
You're going to lose more than an hour. :) It's one of the better webcomics out there. I've been following GG for almost a decade now.
Two other good ones out there: Dominic Deegan: Oracle For Hire (This is is fantasy based, kinda like pathfinder; sadly, the story came to an end, but it is a complete story) and Sluggy Freelance (modern story, lots of puns).
Sluggy Freelance is by far my favorite, and it's one of the oldest daily posting webcomic on the net that is still active today. May in fact be the oldest. I highly recommend it. All three are top quality comics (not necessarily in the beginning, but the artist and writer gets better over time).
Lucy_Valentine |
Humanoids don't have the stretch to fit me. Granted, it's assumed that if you are the same size category you can wear the armor.
That's what I mean. I'm a medium humanoid. My partner is a medium humanoid. My armour is too big for her to use without some substantial alterations, and if she had any it wouldn't even go on me. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad for the abstraction that lets me loot, but if we're talking the realism of dragons in armour, well we already threw that out.
CraziFuzzy |
In essence, I feel the root is that Monsters behave based primarily on instinct, while classed characters behave primarily on training. There are just different motivations. What this means at its core, is that the instinct based monsters are not as apt to change their tactics. Does this make perfect sense all the time? no, but If you want a monster to truly act intelligently and adapt, it might make more sense to make that monster a classed creature.
wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:Hmm. On this point, I may have been calculating CR wrong? At least in my homebrew, I've always used the creatures treasure to add to it's equipment where appropriate, and never adjusted the CR. I thought the monster creation chart was a starting point and appropriate WBL treasure was added after the fact without adjusting CR. I do try to stay within the guidelines for treasure percentages (25% for armor as an example).Because giving them armor takes them outside of their CR range. As an example throwing even a chain shirt on a monster give it +4 AC. A +1 cloak of resistance gives it a boost to all saves. Give it an amulet of might fist or a weapon, and its average attack and damage go up.
If you look at the monster creation chart even boosting AC, attacks, an saves by as small as +1 is enough to warrant a boost to another CR category.
I am not saying it makes someone a bad GM. I am just answering the question, and if a GM runs for an optimized group I actually recommend the monster using the treasure.
Now some monsters such as giants use this treasure to meet their CR ratings, but improving on it still bumps them up a CR.
The monsters in the book as "as is". They assume the GM will "plug and play". That allows for the GM to grab them on the fly.
wraithstrike |
Most dragons can't cast fickle winds until they are old or very old. What are they using to survive in the meantime?
Wind Wall. They can also sunder bows. Now as a GM I don't like to sunder things because it really annoys players, but if we just look at tactics and don't worry about player fun, then disarming and sundering are very good options.
Kain Darkwind |
You're going to lose more than an hour. :) It's one of the better webcomics out there. I've been following GG for almost a decade now.Two other good ones out there: Dominic Deegan: Oracle For Hire (This is is fantasy based, kinda like pathfinder; sadly, the story came to an end, but it is a complete story) and Sluggy Freelance (modern story, lots of puns).
...you fiend.
Zwordsman |
I feel like most monstesr would have a hard time finding armour made for them, or finding/making potions etc. Even if they did most if not all couldn't identify what it does.. so randomly they might drink something wonkey or useless expecting something else.
now if they had some captured person doing it for them, and they had hte intelligence to actually get this all to work then I coudl see it.
Though I feel like an army of ogres, dragons or whatever decked out in adamantine armour would be a world shaking kinda moment, and indicitive of something weird happening in the worlds.
Kimera757 |
How about Dragons wearing a ring on one of its claw or a magic pendant on its neck? Imcould very easy see a dragon with pendant that give it magic resistance
Dragons already have spell resistance (and a trinket of spell resistance is really expensive and hard to acquire if you're a dragon) ... but your point stands.
I'm thinking of the availability. A dragon can't walk into a magic shop. A dragon that has item creation feats has less need to worry about this. If dragons were capable of working together, I could picture a dragon that crafts stuff for other dragons... in exchange for part of it's hoard, of course.
Darkholme |
Over and over and over again I see players and GMs alike talking about how monsters are often weaker than classed characters. Supposedly this is because their options are more limited, whereas a classed character can be optimized with a plethora of items and options.
Why?
What is keeping the dragon from wearing armor, or the ogre from using a potion of enlarge person? Why aren't monsters using the same tricks and tactics that classed characters often use?
They have treasure values; why aren't the intelligent monsters making use of it? Why aren't they every bit as selective and discerning in their tools and tactics as the adventurers they so often fight?
How is it that such an imaginative and outgoing community fell into the mental rut of "monsters couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't do that."
Please. Answer me that.
Great Red Wyrm (CR22) in full-plate. AC48 hahaha. And when the players kill it and take its stuff, it's a set of nonmagical, 48000 gold priced colossal nonhumanoid armor, that weighs 600 lbs. That sounds fantastic. When they go to bring it home, you can ask them how they're transporting something that size (it may not be that heavy, but it's still gigantic).
Ashiel |
I'm not sure I'd give a dragon armor for the reason of them submitting to an armorsmith for fitting. Sure - technically they could make it themselves - but would they? And would they burn the skills on it? You might as well give them a greatsword to take advantage of their massive BAB and have their nat attacks sans claws as secondary swings.
I have and would give bigger dragons bracers of armor though.
I've had dragons with improved unarmed strike and deflect arrows. Does that count?
Te'Shen |
You're going to lose more than an hour. :) It's one of the better webcomics out there. I've been following GG for almost a decade now.
Two other good ones out there: Dominic Deegan: Oracle For Hire (This is is fantasy based, kinda like pathfinder; sadly, the story came to an end, but it is a complete story) and Sluggy Freelance (modern story, lots of puns). . . .
Thank you. I'm a big fan of Girl Genius, but I had lost track of Dominic Deegan. I will go back and finish it now. I will also have to check out Sluggy now that I like your other two recommendations. :)
Ashiel |
Great Red Wyrm (CR22) in full-plate. AC48 hahaha. And when the players kill it and take its stuff, it's a set of nonmagical, 48000 gold priced colossal nonhumanoid armor, that weighs 600 lbs. That sounds fantastic. When they go to bring it home, you can ask them how they're transporting something that size (it may not be that heavy, but it's still gigantic).
Man that's a really bad AC for a CR 22 creature. That's basically auto-hit territory for PF martials (+20 BAB, +5 enhancement, +10 strength, +6-10 class features, +4 greater heroism, +1 haste, etc, etc).
A pit fiend has a comparable AC naked (AC 42, before magic trinkets).
Darkholme |
An adult red dragon is huge sized. Its crush damage is 2d8+15, for an average of 24 damage. The average person has (Commoner 1) has 3-4 hit points, while the typical soldier has 6-7 (Warrior 1, 12-13 con). Horses have 15 hit points. Instant death. Of course, the PCs would survive. But they are PCs, who are supposed to be special.
Lots of people really don't run it that way. I would argue that wouldn't make that much sense. I mean, I am able to find an NPC of whatever level and class I need, who is also willing to do a job for me. (Assuming large enough city).
The way *I* see it, a level 1 NPC has next to no life experience. Even if experience only comes from combat, your typical farmer who has never had to do anything more dangerous than set some rat traps will go up a few levels. Sure they might be commoner levels, but by age 30-35 I'd expect him to at least have 5 or 6 of them.
That level 1 fighter? He has no life experience and just got out of basic military training. He's not a hero, and not a big deal.
The city guard who has been protecting everyone from orcs and goblins for the past 5 years? He's at least level 6, unless it's a really quiet place with few external threats.
The ex-soldier you run into, who has done a couple of tours against a foreign nation and survived? Somewhere between level 8 and 10.
If you somehow each 40 and are still level 1, well, you've never had to deal with ANY signifiant threat, and have lived a charmed life free of hardship, because if you've even gone so far as to set rat traps that kill 10 diseased rats (which are worth 135xp each), you're now level 2. Win at least 7 fist fights against unskilled teenagers over the course of your life? Level 2.
And that's assuming it doesn't make sense to award XP for things outside combat (which I think it does). So you'd have to have led a very charmed, lazy life, where you didn't have any real experiences, to be level 1 forever.
So bigger dragons can instantly crush a puny human. Its just that PCs aren't normal humans.
Of course, following my reasoning, the PCs aren't nearly as special as following your premise, but then, I don't think that they should be. Their "specialness" comes from their superior WBL, and optimized character choices, but level 10 NPCs are all over the place. Sure, they're less common than level 1 NPCs, but they're not at all hard to find.
Ashiel |
Something that irritates the snot out of me is this idea that a dragon's horde is just it's triple standard treasure. Such does not a horde make. It's triple treasure is probably just what it has on it at most times, because a dragon's "horde" should definitely be its own adventure and significantly more than than simply equivalent to killing three common enemies or 1.5 NPC-classed enemies.
A dragon's "horde" doesn't leave the dungeon so to speak, and is guarded by a multitude of traps, servants, bound outsiders, and more. All of these things adding to the overall treasure at the end of the horde. When building the horde, we're effectively increasing the size of the horde based on its defenses, but in the game reality the defenses are more rationally increasing with the size of the horde (it's just easier to build it the other way around).
For example, in the d20 system, it's customary for you to make up the difference in loot elsewhere in an adventure when dealing with traps and/or monsters with incidental or no treasure, so building a dragon's horde might look like this...
A CR 6 Dragon's Lair and the accompanying "Horde"
10 CR 1 traps = +4,000 XP / +2,600 gp
5 CR 3 traps = +4,000 XP / +4,000 gp
20 CR 1/3 guardians = +2,700 XP / +1,735 gp
10 CR 2 guardians = +6,000 XP / +5,500 gp
5 CR 4 guardians = +4,800 XP / +5,750 gp
The dragon itself = +2,400 XP / +6,000 gp
A classic dragon's lair, with a suitable horde of 19,585 gp worth of goodies aside from the dragon's generic x3 standard treasure. This treasure can be divided out to provide more bulk. For example, by taking 1,000 gp out of it and converting it into copper pieces you get a nice bed of 100,000 coins weighing a total of 1 ton. Then add in 2,000 gp worth of silver pieces (20,000 sp / 400 lbs), then 3000 gp (60 lbs. of gold coins), leaving 13,585 gp worth of stuff to round out the shiny baubles that aren't very useful for the dragon to carry around (the dragon is likely wearing the +1 amulet, +1 ring, and some wands in its personal gear; but the horde might be carrying that +1 undead-bane sword and/or other exotic items such as a life-size jade statue of a succubus, a mithral axe, etc).
Ashiel |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The way *I* see it, a level 1 NPC has next to no life experience. Even if experience only comes from combat, your typical farmer who has never had to do anything more dangerous than set some rat traps will go up a few levels. Sure they might be commoner levels, but by age 30-35 I'd expect him to at least have 5 or 6 of them.
That level 1 fighter? He has no life experience and just got out of basic military training. He's not a hero, and not a big deal.
The city guard who has been protecting everyone from orcs and goblins for the past 5 years? He's at least level 6, unless it's a really quiet place with few external threats.
The ex-soldier you run into, who has done a couple of tours against a foreign nation and survived? Somewhere between level 8 and 10.
I think the thing that probably keeps most NPCs in the low levels is that given their individual strength (or lack thereof) most are going to be dealing with threats as large groups. If a town has 30 guards who all participate in fighting off and/or dealing with, say, a wyvern, then they would each receive 80 XP (2,400 XP / 30 allies), which means that it would take a lot of wyverns to get them up in levels; meanwhile it does not take a lot of wyverns to kill a few guards each time.
Quick advancement in levels from combat experience generally hinges on how many participants were involved. Did you solo the wyvern? +1 level on first try. Did you and a team of 29 others kill the wyvern? Okay, you need 24 more wyverns to hit level 2.
Now if you're dealing with similar numbers, such as 30 town guards w/ homefield advantage vs 40 invading goblins who are also CR 1/3rd, then each member of the guard would get 180 XP, and it would take 11.1 goblin raids for them to reach 2nd level.
Darkholme |
Hmm. Good point, Ashiel. Moving the vast majority of the Wealth found in the dungeon in with the dragon would give you a much more believable hoard, without breaking WBL.
Still has nothing on Smaug's hoard though. I really think, if you manage to kill a colossal dragon with your 3 best buddies (or 13 dwarves) you should never be wanting for money again, and be able to afford whatever you want forever.
Of course, the power boost in WBL & magic items makes that not an option in a Pathfinder game without houserules to address such issues.
I'm somewhat inclined to stop running the dragons like Smaug, and start running them like the dragons isn Shadowrun instead.
Gray |
Something that irritates the snot out of me is this idea that a dragon's horde is just it's triple standard treasure. Such does not a horde make. It's triple treasure is probably just what it has on it at most times, because a dragon's "horde" should definitely be its own adventure and significantly more than than simply equivalent to killing three common enemies or 1.5 NPC-classed enemies.
I think I'm with you, but just to be sure.. . In other words, what I like to do when planning treasure (ie hoard), i'll factor in WBL for say the entire 2 to 4 levels of an adventure I'm planning. I'll then spread around the treasure accordingly, so the hyena pack encountered outside the blue dragons lair may have been an equivalent challenge, but all the coins are sitting inside the dragons cave. I'm simplifying, but is that the gist?
Bandw2 |
Hmm. Good point, Ashiel. Moving the vast majority of the Wealth found in the dungeon in with the dragon would give you a much more believable hoard, without breaking WBL.
Still has nothing on Smaug's hoard though. I really think, if you manage to kill a colossal dragon with your 3 best buddies (or 13 dwarves) you should never be wanting for money again, and be able to afford whatever you want forever.
Of course, the power boost in WBL & magic items makes that not an option in a Pathfinder game without houserules to address such issues.
I'm somewhat inclined to stop running the dragons like Smaug, and start running them like the dragons isn Shadowrun instead.
honestly I prefer dragons being Shadowrun-esque and less mythical-esque. Dragonfall (the expansion for shadowrun returns) is actually quite good(much better than default game) and has a lot of the backstory of dragons covered. especially the fact that dragons didn't initially consider humans a threat. the story revolves around a story about a dragon from when magic first awakened, where a dragon (feuerschwinge{i love the fact that we get some german names for things in it too}) awoke and started pillaging everything in germany.
of course shadowrun dragons are bulletproof.
Ashiel |
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Hmm. Good point, Ashiel. Moving the vast majority of the Wealth found in the dungeon in with the dragon would give you a much more believable hoard, without breaking WBL.
Still has nothing on Smaug's hoard though. I really think, if you manage to kill a colossal dragon with your 3 best buddies (or 13 dwarves) you should never be wanting for money again, and be able to afford whatever you want forever.
Of course, the power boost in WBL & magic items makes that not an option in a Pathfinder game without houserules to address such issues.
I'm somewhat inclined to stop running the dragons like Smaug, and start running them like the dragons isn Shadowrun instead.
Well I think Smaug is probably better than a CR 6 dragon, in theory at least. The dragon's horde is going to grow in extreme ways with it's CR. I kept it to a small CR 6 dragon for demonstrative purposes. ^_^
I think I'm with you, but just to be sure.. . In other words, what I like to do when planning treasure (ie hoard), i'll factor in WBL for say the entire 2 to 4 levels of an adventure I'm planning. I'll then spread around the treasure accordingly, so the hyena pack encountered outside the blue dragons lair may have been an equivalent challenge, but all the coins are sitting inside the dragons cave. I'm simplifying, but is that the gist?
Yeah that's the gist of it. When the d20 system was created, it was intended that over X encounters players should amass roughly Y treasure, and creatures that don't have much or any treasure get the difference made up elsewhere in the adventure. It's also a good way to get red of "excess" treasure on humanoid NPCs.
For example, your standard CR 1/3 NPC classed character (such as a goblin) has 260 gp worth of gear. After you've geared them with the usual stuff, you can then drop the rest into the "horde". This is true for more than just dragon hordes too (it's also great for camps and/or strongholds).
In the case of traps and/or treasureless creatures (like elemental guardians and such) you can just toss it all in. Ultimately, the treasure is gained, some now, some later.
Eltacolibre |
Customization of monsters is actually the fun part to me. I enjoy giving class levels and equipping monsters, granted not all of them, usually only on special npcs, demibosses or bosses. Also depend on the theme of what they are fighting. I'm actually looking forward to the Monster Codex.
Sometime I take inspiration from various tricks in AP, movies, modules like in one ap, a genie has some non-genies minions and he uses them to make wishes, like an npc would say "I wish you would be dead!" and bam, using finger of death on a pc and they have to roll to save.
Some monsters, mostly the ones listed under special tho barely ever benefit from any kind of items or builds, because they rely so much on their unique ability, those ones, I usually keep it simple with defensive items.
Darkholme |
And if you do what some of us do, and make the WBL chart and magic items in the book into a system for buying a variety of inherent character bonuses instead of money, then it doesn't matter so much if you give the PCs too much money (or if they have level 4 WBL at level 10, because all of the money bits that determine character balance have been (hopefully) rolled into character advancement instead. (And if I give you a castle or a ship, you're not going to try to sell it for a better sword).
boring7 |
Smaug wore a diamond waistcoat for a reason.
Dragons have certain requisites, as giant birds of prey (sort of) they aren't going to wear anything heavy enough to make flying difficult, their pride in their amazing draconic might already chafes a bit at wearing armor, slowing themselves down is not an option, unless the dragon is a particular fellow who crafts it himself. The Dragon Knight, who wore fullplate barding he crafted and enchanted himself, was quite an interesting character. Especially when he kicked in his flight-boosting enchantments he'd worked into it. The Iron Dragon reigned the skies of an entire continent and might have forged an empire if he hadn't been assassinated by a tricky band of adventurers wearing 10 magic rings.
Dragons will CHEERFULLY wear rings, bracers, and other magic items, because magic is just fine, it's a sign of their own arcane might, and while they might have some more "pride chafing" at using something crafted by someone else, they can usually get over it one way or another. Assuming they don't make it themselves, collect it as tribute, or inherit it.
A dragon won't use weapons, the mechanical questions of a quadruped swinging a stick around are bad enough, but using tools just feels wrong. An aerial predator has a deep-seated psychological need to crush something in it's talons. Also it's questionable how much use a +4 greatsword is over mighty rending claws, even if the greatsword is colossal.
Finally, dragons will use potions if they can, but it's actually a rather difficult proposition. 10 Dex and claws the length of spears are problematic for a glass potion bottle. And great big vats of healing juice in your lair are asking for trouble. Not to mention unless the dragon can get used to and comfortable with a vast array of (inevitably stupid and clumsy) slaves tromping around her home (high perception can be a curse) she have to keep all those magic bottles organized and labeled and within easy reach but not in the way all by herself. And what will she put them on, the masterwork bandolier/harness that is uncomfortable and restrictive?
Now this is dependent on the size of the dragon, of course, and small fry are more likely to "cheat" both because it is convenient and because they can less-afford the typical Draconic pride. The fact that they also have less money to spend on magic hits them from the other side, though, so they only have so much equipment themselves.
As for Behirs, those critters may be smart but too much lightning applied directly to their own brain leaves them too effin' CRAZY to use gear. You ever talked to a Behir? "Bi-polar" doesn't even BEGIN to cover it.
ogres, and many primitive giant humanoids often fear and distrust magic because they are primitive and superstitious. Divine magic is allowed, but it is women's work (and they trend incredibly sexist) so it is not allowed on the battlefield. Arcane magic is the work of the slave-makers, evil wizards, and enemy stunties (non-giants) so it is therefore bad and not to be trusted either. Of course if an ogre gets a lucky club which just seems to swing better and he doesn't know why, he'll happily use it until the day he gets hacked to death by a foaming-mouthed dwarven barbarian.
Aboleth can't wear most gear because having things pressed against their skin for long periods will actually cause pressure sores. Moreover, they prefer to sink most of their resources into building insane creations which are equal parts science, art, and madness from beyond the deepest depths of the sea and the darkest reaches of the void.
When it comes to magical gear the Xorn inevitably eat anything mineral (it tastes spicy and oh-so good!), and accidentally destroy anything vegetable or animal because it doesn't make sense how weak that stuff is. Sometimes you'll find something of use and not "sampled" into uselessness, but it's catch as you can.
Finally, the Leucrotta destroys any useful magical item because it knows, deep in its soul, NOTHING it can actually make use of will save it from murderhobos like you, and it will deny you the satisfaction of getting more loot because it hates you. Haaaaates yooooouuuuuuuu.
Astral Wanderer |
The only problem with me is if there is the time to customize a creature.
If there is, then there are all the reasons to do it properly.
And that isn't limited to making use of its treasure. It means customizing the fluff around it too, which then also interwines with that treasure and how the creature uses it.
Even optimizing the creature's equipment, maybe too often a GM (me too, but only because I can't have enough time to do things properly) just sends it on the field "brutally", making of it just a more efficient cannon fodder, rather than a memorable encounter, when instead there are countless opportunities to show how each creature is reasonably unique despite staying within the canon borders of its nature. Context, place, time, environment, personal and general background and customized equipment can, for the same group of PCs, turn a weak "blank" monster into a deadly and exciting challenge.
Even an animal-intellect creature can be made more dangerous by using specific tactics that are more advanced than what would be normal for it while not going outside what it'd really do. I mean, a blank Dire Wolf behaves like a more ferocious normal wolf. But a Dire Wolf who found a regenerating spring in the middle of a forest and made its lair near it, will make use of it. It's not smarter than any other of its kind, but he knows that given place gives it given benefits, as a dog would know that going in the backyard it can find a water bowl. Just to make a bland example. Of course you can't give something like that to every beast, but when it comes to more intelligent creatures, the possibilities are truly endless and it's extremely pleasant to tap and play with them.
About a related matter: if anyone is concerned about giving monsters good equipment because the PCs will end up owning it, well, assuming that by doing so the PCs significantly exceed their wealth-by-level limit (and not considering the fact that consumable items to be actually consumed can be a good pick for monsters), there's nothing preventing a GM from bringing in play equipment-breaking creatures, sundering-specialized NPCs, magic-item-tax-requiring situations (example: for some specific task, a statue needs to stay permanently pierced by at least a +3 holy sword or spear, meaning such item must be basically abandoned there), thieves of any kind, hazards where certain items go lost, or whatever can spring to mind. No matter, the level of the PCs, what a GM gives, a GM can take.
Also, lost, stolen or abandoned item may return in play later in the campaign, if the PCs can somehow find or retrieve them, and that could lead to nice storyline events too.
In my campaigns, I don't use XP, and let PCs advance at a very slow rate, so, between one level and the next, characters can gather much more than what their wealth by level suggests. They know what's going on, and that if they gather too much the game will break, and they're free to use the excess money for things that don't affect the combat aspect of the game, such as buying houses, art, riches, making donations and whatnot. If there is still an excess, thievery and other stuff come to sap their wealth.
Not that I won't occasionally do those things even if they're within the limits, otherwise it wouldn't be funny (and players would always know when to expect something bad in that regard, making the game too predictable).
Darkholme |
I'm gonna be honest, the treasure in most campaigns I play is woefully below WBL, and the vast majority of it is used against us first. Especially when you factor in most of it has to be resold at half value (we can only wear 4 suits of armor no matter what the enchantment).
Yeah, that happens a lot. It also tends to mean that if someone brings in a new character, they have a huge boost in powe over the preexisting characters, even if you only give them the average (under WBL) gold the other party members have, if only because they got to hand-pick equipment instead of having to take whatever crap they found. It also gives a serious edge to pet classes, and sumoners, and necromancers, and a not insignificant edge to casters, because while they're all affected by being under equipped, they aren't as effected as Joe Fighter who needs top tier equipment just to keep up. Not to mention, the wealth isn't always distributed evenly. Joe Fighter may get better or worse gear based on what's available, if the party isn't careful to divvy up the loot evenly. And even after that, what's the policy on resurrection costs? Divided evenly? I've played in groups where the policy was "We Divide Loot Evenly. If You Die, You Can Be Resurrected If You Have the Money. Otherwise, If You Agree In Advance, We Will Loan You The Money, But You Don't Get Any Loot Until It's Been Paid Back. So Don't Die."
My games have gotten much better since I stopped tying character power to money (This takes houserules). Not having to worry about players having unequal equipment access, or handing out gear that works for them, and not having to put as much effort into monster loot - has made my games much better. Now if someone is playing a greedy character, that doesn't make them more powerful, it only makes them more greedy (*Assuming they aren't using their money to hire an army for a day or something like that*).
ParagonDireRaccoon |
In an interview once, Gary Gygax discussed some of the questions he's been asked about 1E:
Why is there a dungeon with different monsters in each room? Why doesn't the vampire down the hall kill the orcs and bugbears a few corridors over? Why doesn't the goblin chief use the magic sword and armor in the treasure chest he's guarding? Great questions, and there are no answers.
I customize monsters, but start slow and increase customization over the levels. I ran a red dragon in a volcano adventure in Dragonlance in 3E with a lot of customization. The dragon was mining gold in the mountain and volcano range (Krynn uses steel in place of gold and GP are equal to silver pieces, but I decided dragons like gold for aesthetic value rather than for human kingdom monetary value). He had a deal with a group of dwarves, who mined and crafted magic items for him in exchange for all the non-gold ores they mined. So the boss fight was with an adult red dragon using scrolls and a dwarf cleric of Reorx, which through the players for a loop. I've also placed an adult copper dragon in the lair of wyrm red dragon, a natural disaster forced a lot of dragons out of their lairs and the copper dragon was crashing at the place of a red dragon he was on friendly terms with. The PCs didn't fight the copper dragon, but the copper dragon warned the red dragon of their approach. Customized items, unusual alliances, and non-standard tactics work better at higher levels when the players know to expect them, and require extra planning in my experience (both for setting up the encounter and being prepared for the times when you have to dial back the encounter to prevent a tpk).
Darkholme |
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how do you handle removing WBL? do you use a point system or roll for aqusition? and how is are the equipment gains RP'd?
It's a point system.
Basically (I have a bit of a system kicking around that details it more) what I do; I look at the WBL Values at each level, and pull out 75% of that (rounded to the nearest 1000 gold). The reason I picked 75% is I remember seeing that keeping up with the power curve typically takes 75% of your WBL.
That 75% at each level are then what I call Character Ability Points, or CAPs, and 1 CAP = 1 gold for purposes of how many points something costs). I grant CAPs at the end of each session, based on what level the PCs are at, + how close they are to their next level (so if they're 50% of the way to the next level, they will have CAPs for their level, plus 50% of the difference in CAPs from their current level to the next. Players are free to swap out 1/3 of their CAPs (or 1000, whichever is higher) at each levelup.
CAPs are used to buy magical enhancements. Specifically, magical enhancements that improve your characters capabilities in combat, and are not consumable. So things like weapon enhancements, amor enhancements, rings of spell storing, rings of spell knowledge, pearls of power, new wizard spells (as though scribing them in your spellbook) etc - those things are fine; but things like magic carpets, immovable rods, wands, or potions, are not, and still take money (but I have been considering whether or not I should find a way to work them in and allow them, when they're used for this purpose). When you buy one of these things with CAPs, you're not getting an item, you're getting an ability (you also only pay for the magic effect, not the item itself). This ability is usable with whatever compatible items you happen to be holding, but if the item is not masterwork, you take a -1 to attack and damage while using your power with it, and IIRC, AC-1 if you use magic armor things on nonmasterwork amor. I have some further restrictions on which abilities you can have on your character for flavor reasons, with other ways you acquire them instead, but for game balance that's not at all necessary. So rather than get a flaming sword, the player buys flaming, and he can make whatever weapon he's using become flaming. As for how you RP the acquisition of such an ability, it could be something they just learn to do, or you could have them go through some sort of attunement ritual, or whatever you'd like.
Players still buy mundane gear and consumeables with cash. Theoretically, I should give the players 25% WBL for that stuff. And that's basically what I shoot for, but it's much less important if I am over or under than it would normally be. I still grant at least 100% WBL in gold up to level 4 or 5, sometimes I'm much more generous with gold at the beginning. In the early levels the players aren't buying magic gear, they're getting regular equipment, and barding for their mount, and whatnot, and if I only gave them 25% WBL for those levels they would have serious problems.
Sometimes, I will still hand out magical weapons and whatnot still, in the form of weapons. but these don't provide a boost in power, only a boost in versatility. To use the flaming sword you just found, you need to have the equivalent in natural abilities (+2 or more, to make it +1 flaming). If you only have a +1,then you can't activate its flaming property unless you find something of equivalent CAPs to disable so you can power your new weapon. As a result, the items I do give out tend to be more interesting; you'll never see me pass out a +2 sword, for instance. And these magic items an be sold for gold, as usual.
The end result/benefit of all of this is:
1. I don't have to worry about gold discrepency between characters seriously affecting character power.
2. I only have to worry about giving the players appropriate WBL until they have 5,000-10,000 gold (whatever it takes to cover all of the mundane gear they intend to use), after which point, it's not a huge deal. Money goes from something you need to replenish almost as fast as the players spend it (if not spent on equipment), to something you can (as GM) sortof forget about without any real consequences, so long as they're above that minimum threshold of being able to afford basic equipment.
I've also tried just giving the players 5k up front at character creation. Since they can't spend any of it on magical combat equipment, it didn't cause any many problems, and the players had whatever basic gear they wanted, including armor for the horse, and a cart, etc. It worked out pretty well, and everyone but the cavalier who had lots of equipment had a decent amount left over after covering their needs. Of course, you could make them wait for it until they hit level 4 or whatever, but I just didn't see any reason to.
3. I don't (and they don't) feel like I'm ruining their character if people start snatching/sundering their weapons in combat, or if they are captured and disarmed and they don't find all of their stuff conveniently outside their cell in a chest. They can kill some guards, take the guards' equipment, and they're almost as well off as with their own gear. Maybe it takes them a while to actually get all of their stuff back.
4. I can give players highly expensive things, like boats, or castles, or whatever, and they can't try to sell them for magical weapons to increase their character power. Also, if they get lucky and kill Smaug at level 8 and take a mountain full of gold, I can just let them have a mountain full of gold without seriously worrying about how them having a mountain full of gold will break all of the things. YAY!
5. Players can have a golf bag of weapons they carry around, and they aren't having to buy enhancements on all of them, or put up with a bunch of crappy weapons.
6. I'm not making the ranger spend twice as much on weapon enhancements to dual-wield weapons that together only end up matching the greatsword that the greatsword fighter only has to enchant one.
I hope some of that was useful. :)
Astral Wanderer |
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In an interview once, Gary Gygax discussed some of the questions he's been asked about 1E:
Why is there a dungeon with different monsters in each room? Why doesn't the vampire down the hall kill the orcs and bugbears a few corridors over? Why doesn't the goblin chief use the magic sword and armor in the treasure chest he's guarding? Great questions, and there are no answers.
There is an answer: very, very bad design/writing.
To me, the problem is that those question find a reason to be made.Kimera757 |
Hmm. Good point, Ashiel. Moving the vast majority of the Wealth found in the dungeon in with the dragon would give you a much more believable hoard, without breaking WBL.
Still has nothing on Smaug's hoard though. I really think, if you manage to kill a colossal dragon with your 3 best buddies (or 13 dwarves) you should never be wanting for money again, and be able to afford whatever you want forever.
Of course, the power boost in WBL & magic items makes that not an option in a Pathfinder game without houserules to address such issues.
Alternatively, if it's the last encounter of a campaign and the PCs are going to retire.
I'm somewhat inclined to stop running the dragons like Smaug, and start running them like the dragons isn Shadowrun instead.
I don't like that idea. Those "smart" dragons come across as fiends. If I'm looking for that kind of intelligent schemer, I'll use a pit fiend.