Goblin Squad Member
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This survey would have been time better spent, I believe, had it been done 1 year from now.
Ouch!
A bit of looking a gift horse in the mouth, don't you think? This isn't commissioned. It's a dedicated community member putting a bunch of their time into something they hope will have a positive effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see a problem with doing the survey now, just reading too much into the results.
This game, up to this point, has seen it's marketing primarily targeted at table-top gamers. They're the initial audience GW decided to win over to get this game off the ground. But just like WoW's audience is not primarily diehard Warcraft fans anymore, neither will PFO's audience primarily be Pathfinder tabletop fans if it takes off.
Given the features intended to be present in this game by OE (Feuds, territory warfare, etc.) I believe people who enjoy and understand these kinds of content are drastically under-represented in this community.
I think GoblinWorks should keep in mind that they can't bring in a new audience by catering to the every demand of the audience they already have. In other words. If they cater soley to the table-toppers who seem to want them to focus on building content rather than allowing the players to provide it, they'll never bring in the audience who cares about the features they originally promoted.
In some ways, Spitfire's desire for an ordered universe makes him his own worst enemy.
LOL Thanks, Caldeathe :)
Even a statistically significant fraction of the alpha players is no way representative of the entire community.If the "entire community" is not able or willing to participate, what do you propose should be done?
Shooting someone's work down because of a lack of participation of this "missing silent majority " is not very constructive, eh?
@ Giorgo: Actually, it is a very constructive comment. Anyone who says that 143 responses is too few is perfectly right to say so. I anticipated things like this and took great care in writing up the analysis for this reason. I was only able to make 3 strong conclusions from the survey:
1. People would be happy to have Druids and Rangers without Animal Companions if it means they get those classes sooner. I see no reason why this outcome could not be generalized to the larger community of players- other than being more active participants, what makes the survey respondents different from the other thousands who have vested resources in this game?
2. Goblinworks is successfully keeping to their word about Crowdforging. Out 143 respondents of varying degrees of participation level, no one said GW was "Not Responsive at All."
3. The economy seems to be the biggest thing on people's minds. The significant difference between Alpha players and Non-Alpha players over economy and CRB was also very interesting. This is all the more interesting given that nearly all (80%) of the Alpha respondents had less than 1 month Alpha play time before taking the survey.
It is important to keep in mind that the majority of respondents were NOT Alpha players at the time they took the survey. Only 61 of the 143 respondents had any play time in Alpha when they took the survey.
Is sample size and population an issue? Yes. Are there still valuable insights from this survey? Yes. Just not as many due to the clear sampling limitations.
This survey would have been time better spent, I believe, had it been done 1 year from now.
Thank you for your honest opinion. As was pointed out, this is not so. Alpha and Beta are THE Crowdforging versions of the game. Work like this should be done now, not a year from now when the game is being launched for realz.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe the survey was a bad idea, ill timed, a waste of time or invalid. It is a survey of the most engaged, and has value as long as that simple truth is recognized.
Can its results be extended beyond its small sampling? I do not believe so. The basis for my opinion on that point is my belief that the vast majority of the player base will change at some point during mid to late EE, and them again even more dramatically during the early stages of OE.
I have spoken to many players, and in some cases the leadership of entire groups that are looking to PFO to be "EvE with Swords". The appeal is found in just a few words, "Open World", "Sandbox" and "PvP". You put those together and you get the response that I got when I pitched the game to a group a couple of days ago.
"That is just the game we are looking for" and "I hope they don't F it up like so many others have".
Now this was a "small to mid sized" guild of between 60 - 70 members. So imagine how that number would impact the survey.....
142 + 60 - 70, safe to say that 30% influx would certainly shift the results.
DareIsay while we are not going to be the endgame demographic, we are the most devoted to the game. I am not saying others won't come around with similar devotion, but think of the time some people spend playing(/testing) the game and reading/posting on these forums. If you survey these people, that's good.
The issue with an influx of players... well that's kind of the same as everything else. A local band that gets a new following, whatever. Will you "sell out" or "stay true." I think if this game gets caught up in becoming every other sandbox it will turn a lot of people off. I'd say this community is filled with intelligent people. The community isn't 'toxic' yet. If there is an influx, I hope the devs continue to stay the course because I believe it will level out. That is, if people are going to stay, they will stay. Changing to please late comers is contrary to what this whole crowd forging is.
Keeping us happy, I think, is most essential because we will stay if happy. The others will jump around. Companies these days go the Blizzard Route where they launch a badgame like Diablo 3, sell many on name and then just shrug.
But we all know Goblinworks is different. They care. :) haha. 4.2 ballsworth.
Edit @ Andy: I thought this was a kind of gap bridging game for table toppers. They can't very well remove those features. If they are in, they will be central to the game. That IS the game, but I don't see how catering to table top players for the nuances is wrong. Why wouldn't we just go play another game then? When you've lost the table top influence, what does PFO have? No offense to GW, but as much as they are marketing to open world people, the game is open world... Pathfinder Online. If it becomes any more namesake only, they are going to alienate both camps.
...endgame...What does that term mean to you, in PFO context? I've not been able to envision an endgame yet, and I hope I never can.
endgame as in "OE" I would say. Endgame in a development sense.
New players do have an opinion, but it comes down to time/money invested. Some of these people put in money to fund a true lifetime sub. Some guy might come in for one month, whine a bit, then leave.
They might not even have a point of reference as not understanding how things evolved. I am all for people saying whatever because I do, too, but there are many factors. I don't even know what the player base will be when the game launches. If an equal amount of people come in for OE, drop 35 dollars, and want the game changed, it's possible they could leave when Shroud of the Avatar or whatever else comes out. Where as the guys who have been here since Alpha, who paid 1000 or 100... or 50... will probably stay if they are still there. Plus people will donate money. You gotta cater to your hardcore base and hope not to alienate everyone else, IMO.
I dunno how much sense it makes to cater to potential fans... unless you can do it in a way that also excites your current fans. At that point, it's just a good decision.
another edit: I think a lot of people feel this is gonna be a carebear game because of table top. haha. I don't get that feeling at all. I think that's what people are talking about... that this is gonna be some pve game where everyone is holding hands. That is not going to happen. No way. Even though it'd be funny to see because someone would inevitably come mess it up. I bet it doesn't happen for an instant... I think this game is going to be super cut throat.
Unless it is Canadian money. Last time I looked, it was pink and orange and a couple of other colors too.
Wait, Canadians have their own currency? I thought they just used the USD like the rest of the world...
Now this was a "small to mid sized" guild of between 60 - 70 members. So imagine how that number would impact the survey.....
142 + 60 - 70, safe to say that 30% influx would certainly shift the results.
For real, right? That is why if GW decides to do more surveys in the future they will need to do closed random sampling of all active players (or whatever demographic they are specifically interested in) rather than have it open like this survey was.
Personally I would take this survey to be a good indication of where the active PFO forum community stands (assuming that is about 2-300 people), but only a basic indication about the larger player base.
To the larger point that the player base will be changing, I think that is all the more reason why regular surveys should be done. It might cause a few headaches for GW; but in the end of the day it would be the easiest way for them to keep tabs on where the community is at as a complete whole.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This survey would have been time better spent, I believe, had it been done 1 year from now.Ouch!
A bit of looking a gift horse in the mouth, don't you think? This isn't commissioned. It's a dedicated community member putting a bunch of their time into something they hope will have a positive effect.
It wasn't meant as a slander in any way.. And I certainly don't mean to demean Spitfire's work. It is commendable.
I simply reiterate that there are many people who will take the results out of context and apply judgments, incorrectly, about this game and its community.
If Spitfire, or anyone else, took offence to my words, I apologize profusely.
Daz
Daz, I think you should scroll up to my earlier post 6 down fro the top of this page.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Daz, I think you should scroll up to my earlier post 6 down fro the top of this page.
I read it, thank you.
Just because you and I can infer positive connotations from the data does not mean EVERYONE will.
Anyway, I won't comment any further, and I apologize again.
(cuz that's what we Canadians do, along with making funny lookin' munny)
(cuz that's what we Canadians do, along with making funny lookin' munny)Some of it is darned attractive!
Damn... I wanna move to Canada... shit! Did I just say that? I meant, you dirty Canadians you! Or some such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Damn... I wanna move to Canada... s#~*! Did I just say that? I meant, you dirty Canadians you! Or some such.(cuz that's what we Canadians do, along with making funny lookin' munny)Some of it is darned attractive!
Well, whether its your comedy, music, or star fleet, we sidle in and take over when your not looking. And then BAM, its bacon and beer for everyone.
*shrugs*
As we do. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Edit @ Andy: I thought this was a kind of gap bridging game for table toppers. They can't very well remove those features. If they are in, they will be central to the game. That IS the game, but I don't see how catering to table top players for the nuances is wrong. Why wouldn't we just go play another game then? When you've lost the table top influence, what does PFO have? No offense to GW, but as much as they are marketing to open world people, the game is open world... Pathfinder Online. If it becomes any more namesake only, they are going to alienate both camps.
My issue with the tabletoppers is that a great many of them are continually seeking to marginalize the role PvP will play in this game, and put off it's implementation in favor of PvE content and flavoring.
Without PvP content this game fails. It is our primary content driver and it needs to be a top priority for this game to succeed. Farming ogres with an inferior combat system to most theme-parks will not lead to the success of this game. Not even with more core classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless it is Canadian money. Last time I looked, it was pink and orange and a couple of other colors too.You want colour, we've got colour
Australia rolled out our coloured polymer between 1992 & 1996
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Yall (no apostrophe!) are both right.
This game is a PvP game. Those systems do need to have a measure of priority in the game and they do.
But this game is also based on the Pathfinder Game setting. In time, it absolutely needs to live up to that and the expectations of Table Toppers.
Personally, I suspect this game is going to end having both robust PvP AND robust PvE gameplay. The "EvE with swords" people are one large market for the game. But the Pathfinder Table-toppers are another large market. The challenge for GW will be catering to both crowds without puling the game in two.
But, Andius, you need to realize that Ryan's priority is, in fact, the PvP aspect of the game. He has stated in the past that PvE will only be as developed "as necessary"- necessary being determined by player demand. So while your needs are being met automatically, my needs and the needs of PvE'ers will have to be fought for. Some respect for that fact would be appreciated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...continually seeking to marginalize the role PvP will play in this game, and put off it's implementation in favor of PvE content and flavoring.
They're doing only what Ryan's encouraged them to do:
The AI is going to be stupid and simple for a long time. We plan to invest as little into PvE as necessary. Crowdforging will define "necessary".
Your PVP-centric game is the majority view, getting the lion's-share of the planned and discussed attention from developers. You're concerned about a minority doing exactly what they have to do: crowdforging, gathering consensus around their interests, their priorities, and their message(s) to the developers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Australia rolled out our coloured polymer between 1992 & 1996Unless it is Canadian money. Last time I looked, it was pink and orange and a couple of other colors too.You want colour, we've got colour
Pshh! Polymer is just the latest gimmick. Canada was issuing coloured paper notes before Australia quit using the pound.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Edit @ Andy: I thought this was a kind of gap bridging game for table toppers. They can't very well remove those features. If they are in, they will be central to the game. That IS the game, but I don't see how catering to table top players for the nuances is wrong. Why wouldn't we just go play another game then? When you've lost the table top influence, what does PFO have? No offense to GW, but as much as they are marketing to open world people, the game is open world... Pathfinder Online. If it becomes any more namesake only, they are going to alienate both camps.My issue with the tabletoppers is that a great many of them are continually seeking to marginalize the role PvP will play in this game, and put off it's implementation in favor of PvE content and flavoring.
Without PvP content this game fails. It is our primary content driver and it needs to be a top priority for this game to succeed. Farming ogres with an inferior combat system to most theme-parks will not lead to the success of this game. Not even with more core classes.
I think you may be falling into the mindset that plagues other MMOs- that PVE and PVP are mutually exclusive. That if anything is done to cater to PVE players, it takes away from PVP. It is not a zero-sum game. Flavoring, core classes, interesting things to do when not PVPing all ultimately help the game as a whole, including PVP.
I want to PVP. I want settlement wars. I want to build and fire siege engines until the walls of my enemy's possessions are rubble. But I want to do those things as a paladin-not as a fighter, not as a cleric. They are not the same thing as a paladin, in PVE or PVP. Preferably, I will be PVPing from the back of warhorse riding down evildoers with my lance leveled. But there is no paladin class in the game yet, so my PVP time will be less as a result. I'm sure there are other players who want to play rangers, monks, druids, etc... that would love to PVP- once those classes are available. Pushing to get core classes and races into the game faster would probably help increase PVP numbers faster than some of the peripheral PVP-related systems (a nuanced PVP bandit/merchant mechanic means nothing to me if I can't participate with the class I want to play, but I'll fight in a bare-bones PVP system if I can do it with the class I want).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everything went downhill ever since we abandoned the seashell standard.
Stone money. What else could one need?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally my top class picks would have been ranger or druid. But I realize prettymuch nothing in this game matters for squat until the feud system makes it in.
I don't want to gain too many achievements until I know I'm building influence for my company.
If gear is being accumulated what is causing it to be lost without some avenue for PvP that doesn't make your character useless for a few weeks from a single kill?
This game is non-functional without feuds. At least once they are in you can buy basic skills in a bunch of classes, play around with different builds, test them in PvP and earn achievements until the role you want to play makes it into the game.
Everything went downhill ever since we abandoned the seashell standard.Stone money. What else could one need?
Pennies that cost more than a penny to make, of course!
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Goblin Squad Member
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...until I know I'm building influence for my company.
We've already seen that their code's capable of back-dating experience to the moment of character-creation, and that it can track cumulative variables, such as Focus Expert 3 counting as Divine 6 Achievement. Perhaps that says that they'll simply be able to credit everyone's Influence regardless of the date that system appears?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not super vocal, and try to keep things as light as possible, but sometimes urgent issues require urgent action and a load voice. That said, unendingly load and unyielding voices are the bane of many forums, threads and game chat channels. Those are the very toxic voices that typically ruin otherwise good gaming experiences and run off more players than they attract. EVE had a community toxic enough that out of the many thousands of free trial accounts that came in for a peek, I suspect the vast majority of them quietly left after being tricked, scammed, ganked, verbally harassed, lied to and otherwise taken advantage of. And these forums might become the same way if not policed by GW and Paizo, now and after OE.