Warpriest guide. Fight for your god.

[Bigguyinblack]

How sure are we that we don't need the +6 BAB to take Pummeling Style at 1st level?

Quote:

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

The or seems to refer to flurry of blows class feature instead of Brawler's Flurry class feature. I think the +6 BaB is still required.

[shroudb]

The ; is after ius and there isn't an ; after the Bab.
In English that reads as:

You need ius
And
Bab 6 OR flurry OR brawlers flurry

If they wanted to have the bab and the flurry then it would be:

Ius; bab 6; flurry or brawlers.

[blackbloodtroll]

Wait, I must have read that feat wrong as well.

Are you sure?

[Bigguyinblack]

So we are interpreting the feat based on a punctuation mark in a poorly edited book? I feel that is a stretch.

[shroudb]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Wait, I must have read that feat wrong as well.

Are you sure?

Just get checked my PDF in case srd had it wrong.

And yeah
You need either bab Or the flurry

[Some Other Guy]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Wait, I must have read that feat wrong as well.

Are you sure?

Yes, according to the punctuation, he is correct. Semicolons separate major elements of a sentence, commas separate lists of things references the same element.

[shroudb]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

So we are interpreting the feat based on a punctuation mark in a poorly edited book? I feel that is a stretch.

Unfortunately you can't interprate it any other way.

It is written as requiring either or, changing the punctuation changes the requirements, but we cannot know which of the two was intended, and its not that it is missing, the comma is right there, meaning someone wrote it with that intention.

Saying that if it was typed differently it would have different meaning, so it must have been written wrong seems like grasping at straws

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, I am glad I was wrong.

Thanks!

[Undone]

Quote:

How sure are we that we don't need the +6 BAB to take Pummeling Style at 1st level?

100%. It's been questioned like a dozen times (Several in this thread alone). You require bab, or flurry, or brawler flurry.

I'm adding the new archetypes from ACO right now. One is really strong the other is too specific to be good. It's unclear to me if devil-bane is even a legal enhancement anyway.

[Seranov]

The intention is that you can't use Pummeling Style until you have more than one attack, therefore you need +6 BAB, or one of the types of Flurry.

But a Monk/Sacred Fist get that at level 1, and a Brawler gets it at level 2. Everybody else has to wait.

[Bigguyinblack]

Next question. Sacred Fist's Flurry ability says it works like the Monk's version. While the Monk's Flurry doesn't mention armor it's weapon and Armor section say "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." What do I say to a GM that brings that up?

[Undone]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

Next question. Sacred Fist's Flurry ability says it works like the Monk's version. While the Monk's Flurry doesn't mention armor it's weapon and Armor section say "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." What do I say to a GM that brings that up?

Have him read flurry and ask him to show you where it says you can't flurry in armor. Then when he points to the proficiency ask him if you get the monk proficiencies. When he says no tell him that's the answer to losing flurry in armor.

Option B: Point to the Sohei FAQ.

[Grimmzorch]

Imbicatus wrote:

Undone wrote:

An easier way to get around the weak base damage on a weapon is to use a better weapon. You get full martial prof, use it!

We know that it's not optimal, but, thanks to sacred weapon, warpriest is a great chssis to play a concept of a character who uses a substandard weapon with great skill and make it work.

But the reality is those weapons are terrible. There is no reason to use them when there are better alternatives.

I'm sure we all wanted to play at some point a character that was a deadly knife fighter, was really good with just a club, or someone as deadly with a shortspear as an Aiel. Maybe you just want to use shuriken but are disenchanted by the 1d2 damage and the difficulty of sneak attacks at range.

Warpriest is a way to make these poor choices stay competitive despite there being better options because of sacred damage.

It is in fact perfect for a Tengu taking claws so at 1st level you use the free weapon focu s to take claws and your first level feat to takes eaton focus bite so all three jump from 1d3 to 1d6 and all with no minus like TWF. That and Tengus get a plus to wisdom

[Undone]

Quote:

It is in fact perfect for a Tengu taking claws so at 1st level you use the free weapon focu s to take claws and your first level feat to takes eaton focus bite so all three jump from 1d3 to 1d6 and all with no minus like TWF. That and Tengus get a plus to wisdom

Really sure that we discussed natural weapons and I mentioned that it's very strong early but drops off at high levels.

The natural weapons build has nothing to do with the TWF build is the thing. Same with the whip build.

[Failedlegend The Eternal Gish]

Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:

Personally I think a Kusarigama wielding WP could be quite effective if you work in the Tripping line (or grapple or disarm)especially since your not screwed if the enemy gets adjacent to you.

Undone wrote:

People keep saying this but every time I see it I think

1) 5 Foot step
2) Armor spikes
3) Why did they get adjacent through the AOO which can be a trip if you wanted or pushing assault?
4) Dwarven Helm
5) Unarmed strike as a SF.

Teleporting or Flying enemies can easily avoid this

[chbgraphicarts]

Undone wrote:

Quote:

It is in fact perfect for a Tengu taking claws so at 1st level you use the free weapon focu s to take claws and your first level feat to takes eaton focus bite so all three jump from 1d3 to 1d6 and all with no minus like TWF. That and Tengus get a plus to wisdom

Really sure that we discussed natural weapons and I mentioned that it's very strong early but drops off at high levels.

The natural weapons build has nothing to do with the TWF build is the thing. Same with the whip build.

Tengus would actually be one of the best Natural Attack Builds, if not one of the best builds period. With the TWF Tree, with Claws and a Bite:

Main-Hand/Offhand/Claw/Claw/Bite/Main-Hand/Offhand/Offhand at lv12

Taking Weapon Focus for both Claws and Bite would mean that you're making 8 attacks at 1d10 each.

The average would be 44 damage at full attack

Contrasting, the Sacred Fist with 5 attacks at 2d6, with 35 average damage at full attack.

Unfortunately, the Tengu would lose out on the 3 Bonus Combat feats, but since Natural Attacks would be the focus, you wouldn't need Double Slice nearly as much as a basic build.

CL1 Dual Enhancement, Weapon Focus (Claws), Improved Unarmed (Sacred)
CL2
CL3 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite)
CL4
CL5 Two-Weapon Fighting
CL6 Improved TWF
CL7 Multiattack
CL8
CL9 Pummeling Style, ???
CL10
CL11 ???
CL12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

As-is, with TWF, ITWF, and GTWF it's 8 attacks for 44 damage and 2 Feats open

With just Two-Weapon Fighting, it's 6 attacks for avg 33 damage and 4 feats open.

With TWF and ITWF it's 7 attacks for avg 38.5 damage and 3 feats open

And technically, Multiattack is just to raise your Natural Attacks from BAB-5 to BAB-2 (if it's even legal in PFS)

So, A Tengu Warpriest is actually a pretty lethal little bugger.

[chbgraphicarts]

Behold! The Dual-Shield-Wielding Warrior of the Faith, known as...

SAINT MIGHTY THE ARMADILLO

Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL2
CL3 Improved Shield Bash, Duel Enhancement
CL4
CL5 Double Slice
CL6 Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Greater Weapon Focus (Klar)
CL8
CL9 ???, ???
CL10
CL11 ???
CL12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Master

lv12 full attack:

+11/+11/+6/+6/+1

At lv12, can/should retrain to Champion of the Faith, since from then on there is no need to use the basic Sacred Weapon - Shield Master provides a better/permanent Bonus to attack/damage, and thus Dual Enhancement is redundant (so it's safe to lose now).

You, then, get a much-cheaper +5 enhancement to your attacks, a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma, a full attack that is naturally higher than the Sacred Fist's (identical if the SF has Weapon Focus), and should have the highest AC of any Warpriest build.

[Undone]

Quote:

Main-Hand/Offhand/Claw/Claw/Bite/Main-Hand/Offhand/Offhand at lv12

I'm like 90% sure you can't do both. If you main hand/off hand you get a bite but no claws.

Multi attack is also not pfs legal.

Quote:

You, then, get a much-cheaper +5 enhancement to your attacks, a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma, a full attack that is naturally higher than the Sacred Fist's (identical if the SF has Weapon Focus), and should have the highest AC of any Warpriest build.

Again as I said if you get enough points this build is likely optimal but with only 15 points (as is supposed to be the normal) the build is basically impossible. With 20 points the build is only slightly better than base for some specific builds. With 25 it's nearly a straight upgrade to base builds. I'd still say the sacred fist ends up more well rounded thanks to it's ability to full attack on a charge but this is no slouch.

It's very good at 20 pb with 2 handed but my biggest problem with the archetype is that being an archer champion of the faith (The very likely best build) is not easy since your feats (as human) would be delayed and it forces human or you don't get deadly aim until 6th and rapid until 5th.

I do like the shield build.

[RumpinRufus]

If the main-hand/off-hand attacks are unarmed strikes, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to combine them with claw attacks.

[chbgraphicarts]

Undone wrote:

Quote:

Main-Hand/Offhand/Claw/Claw/Bite/Main-Hand/Offhand/Offhand at lv12

I'm like 90% sure you can't do both. If you main hand/off hand you get a bite but no claws.

Ah, but the beauty of the Tengu is that their Claws are on their FEET (bird-people, remember?).

And if Multiattack isn't legal, then just grab Tengu Wings and gain a permanent fly speed.

Then you can punch, bite, and claw from 10ft. in the air all the live-long day.

[Imbicatus]

chbgraphicarts wrote:

Undone wrote:

Quote:

Main-Hand/Offhand/Claw/Claw/Bite/Main-Hand/Offhand/Offhand at lv12

I'm like 90% sure you can't do both. If you main hand/off hand you get a bite but no claws.

Ah, but the beauty of the Tengu is that their Claws are on their FEET (bird-people, remember?).

No, they are not. If they were, they would be talons.

[RumpinRufus]

The tengu should be able to knee/elbow/bite/claw/claw. The unarmed strikes do not need to be made with its hands.

[Imbicatus]

RumpinRufus wrote:

The tengu should be able to knee/elbow/bite/claw/claw. The unarmed strikes do not need to be made with its hands.

True, but some misguided GMs only think you can punch people with your hands for unarmed strikes, or they don't understand the "metaphoric hands" FAQ and try to make it something more than what it is.

[chbgraphicarts]

Imbicatus wrote:

chbgraphicarts wrote:

Undone wrote:

Quote:

Main-Hand/Offhand/Claw/Claw/Bite/Main-Hand/Offhand/Offhand at lv12

I'm like 90% sure you can't do both. If you main hand/off hand you get a bite but no claws.

Ah, but the beauty of the Tengu is that their Claws are on their FEET (bird-people, remember?).

No, they are not. If they were, they would be talons.

Aw...

Oh, well, there is the "metaphoric" FAQ you mentioned, so I'm vindicated at least in that you can definitely get up to 8 attacks at lv12. YAY!

[Undone]

If you can claw/claw/bite/main hand +X/Mainhand +Y/Offhand +X/Offhand+Y then yes that's absurd.

[Undone]

A build has recently been brought to my attention which is terrifying and may or may not be errated soon. The sacred fist pummeling/dragon character instead of normal other feats takes the delightful spirited charge line. You get double damage on the first attack for the charge which is effectively all your damage.

I'd have to stat it out but it seems like a special kind of absurd which should not see play in practical games.

[chbgraphicarts]

Oh, joy! Oh, Rapture! Oh, sweet, sweet blood entrails spewn about the battlefield!

For those wanting to try out a Sword-And-Board build, here's one, and it focuses almost exclusively on Dex:

Deity Feronia Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Race Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Light Shield), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
CL2 Swsh1 Weapon Finesse (Piercing)
CL3 Wrp2 Slashing Grace (Bastard Sword)
CL4 Wrp3 Dual Enhancement
CL5 Wrp4 Shield Slam
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Double Slice, ???, Improved Two-Weapon fighting
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 ???
CL11 Wrp10 ???

[Baaldryn Ozemson]

I must say this a good build guide. My path has lead me to follow Iomedae with a Falchion as my sacred weapon. I believe I can be just as an effective melee combatant as a fighter yet buff myself up with my spells.

[Robert Burnell 821]

Undone wrote:

Or drink if it's Cayden

docs.google.com/document/d/1fAITTzF0hu2mCB-_5vSJGw697JGdSXIOWy9VMp5wyzY/pub
Warpriest Guide
Its my first guide so be honest about it. If there's anything to fix or major issues please feel free to mention it.

NOTE: I tried to air on the side of "It never works" on any questionable rules when writing the guide for all rules questions. (There are a fair number the ACG could have used another editing pass).

It is a good guide, helpful for a late career game. I was wondering though, why not post a S/S build using high crit weapons, and key off that? with the added damage as levels go up, one could use rapier/scimitar?

I have not played PF long, and have not tried a Warpriest yet, but I like the concept, I wouldn't mind seeing a versatile and simple build that a noob could make work.

Just my 2 cents.

[Nyaa]

As you called yourself "noob" I'm obliged to tell you that weapon damage die is nothing and flat bonuses is everything. 2H weapons add 1.5 STR mod to damage thus 2H fighting style is the most damaging melee one.

[Undone]

Nyaa wrote:

As you called yourself "noob" I'm obliged to tell you that weapon damage die is nothing and flat bonuses is everything. 2H weapons add 1.5 STR mod to damage thus 2H fighting style is the most damaging melee one.

Well again sort of. Unarmed with dragon style and pummeling style I believe to be the optimal non archery build because it get's 2x str.

Weapon dice increases are equal to 1 point (1.5 if going from 1d10 to 2d6) of damage. Power attack/str is more than that much just using 2 handed weapons and power attack.

Quote:

I must say this a good build guide. My path has lead me to follow Iomedae with a Falchion as my sacred weapon. I believe I can be just as an effective melee combatant as a fighter yet buff myself up with my spells.

While this is true it's not a mark I'd aim for. Always aim to be better than the fighter. If you do want to use a generic 2 handed weapon and forgo the large number of attacks from a similar reach weapon you really should get step up and strike because that is the ONLY way to get extra hits to make up for your bad BAB.

Quote:

Oh, joy! Oh, Rapture! Oh, sweet, sweet blood entrails spewn about the battlefield!

For those wanting to try out a Sword-And-Board build, here's one, and it focuses almost exclusively on Dex:

I'm not going to lie I'd do this build as sacred fist 10, Swashbuckler 1 (rapier archetype) and go with armor and rapier and take crusaders flurry to flurry with the rapier as a drunk worshiper of cayden.

[Seranov]

So I had a really neat idea while talking with the members of my P6 kingdom building game. It's really designed mostly for low-level games with a focus on skills over magic (so mostly P6) but I thought it might be neat.

Half-orc Sacred Fist Warpriest of Gorum
Traits: Fate's Favored, Seeker
Alternate Racial Trait: Sacred Tattoo
Blessings: Destruction, Chaos
1 - Fast Learner
3 - Weapon Focus (greatsword), Power Attack
5 - Improvisation
6 - Crusader's Flurry

Able to Flurry with the Greatsword, not nearly as hampered by 2+Int skill points a level, and you can grab Improved Improvisation at level 7/for your next 6th level feat if in P6. Can always swap out one of the levels for Fighter to grab armor profiency and another feat, too.

[Albion, The Eye]

I am also a noob in the dealings with Warpriest, so would like to ask what may seem like basic questions:

- Regarding the wis bonus to AC from monk and Warpriest? Do they stack or...?
- Same question regarding Flurry of Blows - do levels of both class stack, or only the BAB?
- Last but not least Seranov, I really appreciate your builds (and love for dwarves :D) Would it be possible to detail your character idea a tad further?

[Undone]

Albion, The Eye wrote:

I am also a noob in the dealings with Warpriest, so would like to ask what may seem like basic questions:

- Regarding the wis bonus to AC from monk and Warpriest? Do they stack or...?
- Same question regarding Flurry of Blows - do levels of both class stack, or only the BAB?
- Last but not least Seranov, I really appreciate your builds (and love for dwarves :D) Would it be possible to detail your character idea a tad further?

1) They claim they never stacked but as of now they definitely don't. See undead anti paladins for a case toward it. In a home game ask if you can stack them but to be honest a mage armor wand and magic vestment are close enough to give you strong AC values.

2) They do not stack however if you take 2 monk levels you lose only the first BAB. Also MoMS loses flurry anyway.

[Albion, The Eye]

Thank you for clearing that up Undone - if you don't mind I'll throw another one your way.

I'm sure it has been asked before, but it still confuses me - I was looking at your guide and can you really have Pummeling charge at level 3? Don't you need two MoMS levels for that?

[LoneKnave]

MoMS can skip requirements, including having the "middle" part of a style feat chain. You can grab pummeling style at lvl1 with a Sacred fist, so technically, you could get it at lvl2.

[Albion, The Eye]

Got it, thank you LoneKnave.

Now, if I can understand why Herolab is stacking AC bonus from monk and sacred fist, I should be able to try and get my character rolling...

[LoneKnave]

The ruling that the AC bonuses don't stack was a new one, and if taken at face value, it'd break a lot more than just Monk/Sacred fist AC stacking.

[Undone]

LoneKnave wrote:

The ruling that the AC bonuses don't stack was a new one, and if taken at face value, it'd break a lot more than just Monk/Sacred fist AC stacking.

But for the FAQ it's the rule for PFS.

[ZanThrax]

Albion, The Eye wrote:

Got it, thank you LoneKnave.

Now, if I can understand why Herolab is stacking AC bonus from monk and sacred fist, I should be able to try and get my character rolling...

There are plenty of things that Hero Lab doesn't have right; this particular one is because they've been (like many people) the opposite of the recent FAQ. They'll get it changed sooner or later. In the meantime, you can add a manual adjustment to get your character's AC down to where it should be.

[Albion, The Eye]

So... AC bonus from Wis does not stack, class levels for flurry do not stack... Can I flurry with armor?

[Undone]

Albion, The Eye wrote:

So... AC bonus from Wis does not stack, class levels for flurry do not stack... Can I flurry with armor?

Yes.

[Albion, The Eye]

In that case, is it necessary to have Wisdom so high? Unless you chose to go without armor - correct?

["Devil's Advocate"]

Undone wrote:

Albion, The Eye wrote:

So... AC bonus from Wis does not stack, class levels for flurry do not stack... Can I flurry with armor?

Yes.

Uncertain as of yet.

[Imbicatus]

RAW, yes. The portion of monk that says you cannot flurry in armor is in the armor proficiency section. There is no such language in Sacred Fist's armor proficiency section, so there is nothing stopping you from flurrying in armor.

The same lack of prohibition is what allows sohei monks to flurry in armor, although the FAQ limited it to light armor only even though RAW, it would have allowed to flurry in any armor.

Since Sacred Fist is not proficient in any armor while the Sohei is proficient in light armor only, I would expect any FAQ to rule on the side of you can't flurry in armor, or if you can, limit it to light armor only.

Until then, you can legally flurry in heavy armor, because nothing in your class features say you can't.

[chbgraphicarts]

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Undone wrote:

Albion, The Eye wrote:

So... AC bonus from Wis does not stack, class levels for flurry do not stack... Can I flurry with armor?

Yes.

Uncertain as of yet.

RAW says yes.

The restriction of Armor preventing Flurry of Blows for a Monk isn't in the Flurry section at all - it's in the Armor & Weapons Proficiencies section of the Monk.

No such restriction exists in the Armor & Weapon Proficiency section of the Sacred Fist, so at the moment the Sacred Fist can Flurry in full plate if they so choose.

Therefore, it's uncertain because Paizo hasn't yet said whether this was intentional or an oversight.

[Undone]

Albion, The Eye wrote:

In that case, is it necessary to have Wisdom so high? Unless you chose to go without armor - correct?

1) You are not proficient.

2) Fervor is wisdom based.
3) Ki is wisdom based.
4) Bonus spells are wisdom based.
5) WILL saves are wisdom based.

Wisdom is the biggest double dip stat in the game for WP.

Quote:

Uncertain as of yet.

No. There is no question this is the RAW. Much like the Sohei it may not have been intentional but it's what is written. You can also if you go fighter 1 flurry with a tower shield and full plate.

[Cairn of Quantium]

Preparing for a Mummy's Mask campaign with a Oread Sacred Fist. Haven't decided about a 1 or 2 lvl dip in MoMS and whether to add Monk of Sacred Mountain if I do dip 2 lvls, but I'll follow the outline from Undone's guide for the SF. What I'm wondering about is taking lvls in Living Monolith at higher levels. Is that crazy? Certainly thematically appropriate, but looking for thoughts on the synergy or impediments of that choice. Action economy to make use of enlarge person is certainly part of my concern, as is the choice of whether to continue caster progression or get the BAB boost when enlarged (depending on type of stone). Worth noting that I think the rest of part will be ninja, investigator and a sorcerer/oracle/mystic theurge, so I'll be the front-liner of the party (and have concerns about doing that with a d8 class).

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

[Undone]

Cairn of Quantium wrote:

Preparing for a Mummy's Mask campaign with a Oread Sacred Fist. Haven't decided about a 1 or 2 lvl dip in MoMS and whether to add Monk of Sacred Mountain if I do dip 2 lvls, but I'll follow the outline from Undone's guide for the SF. What I'm wondering about is taking lvls in Living Monolith at higher levels. Is that crazy? Certainly thematically appropriate, but looking for thoughts on the synergy or impediments of that choice. Action economy to make use of enlarge person is certainly part of my concern, as is the choice of whether to continue caster progression or get the BAB boost when enlarged (depending on type of stone). Worth noting that I think the rest of part will be ninja, investigator and a sorcerer/oracle/mystic theurge, so I'll be the front-liner of the party (and have concerns about doing that with a d8 class).

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

So the problem with excessive multiclasssing is your flurry, blessings, and so on do not increase when you multiclass. I admit it's thematic and it isn't terrible but you'll lose damage just on the grounds of lost flurry progression on iterative hits.

As to MoTSM I think evasion beats out toughness and 1 AC. If for no reason other than 1 AC is 2000g and toughness is 8000g (Con ioun stone) while a ring of evasion is 25000g. Evasion and sacred fortitude is an extremely potent combo.

Additionally note that you are the front liner and gain more from increased caster level (Magic vestment) on the AC front as well.

[Cairn of Quantium]

Thanks, Undone. Well, you've convinced me about taking the straight MoMS vs. MotSM, and the rest makes sense.

What about Amulet of Nat AC vs. Amulet of Mighty Fists for a Sacred Fist?