Warpriest guide. Fight for your god.


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Imbicatus wrote:
The problem with the AoO build is that it's dependent on creatures actually taking an AoO against you when you provoke. Once you do it a few times, some GMs stop taking the bait.

Snake fang is your primary source of AOO's. It's extremely similar to come and get me in terms of attacks generated.


Undone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The problem with the AoO build is that it's dependent on creatures actually taking an AoO against you when you provoke. Once you do it a few times, some GMs stop taking the bait.
Snake fang is your primary source of AOO's. It's extremely similar to come and get me in terms of attacks generated.

As well as opportune parry/riposte. There really doesn't seem to be any shortage of attacks for thus guy.

I didn't know you can agile an AoMF BTW.So at the highest level it would be an Agile Amulet+4?


Quote:
I didn't know you can agile an AoMF BTW.So at the highest level it would be an Agile Amulet+4?

Oh god no. You don't do that.

You add bonuses to your weapon and use GMW.

Fortuitous is definitely incredible with this build.


Undone wrote:
Quote:
I didn't know you can agile an AoMF BTW.So at the highest level it would be an Agile Amulet+4?

Oh god no. You don't do that.

You add bonuses to your weapon and use GMW.

Fortuitous is definitely incredible with this build.

Lol..oops..OK thank you for that


I think its appropriate to ask this question in this thread as it pertains to the builds.

With regards to the aoo snake style build I have a scenario.

Our GM loves reach builds and uses them often. So say our monk closes in on an enemy with 15' reach. He rolls his acrobatics to avoid the AoO as he leaves the threatened square, and fails.

So now our monk is still not in reach(5' too far), when he finishes his move to get adjacent does he lose the immediate attack he may have got from snake style?

And also would he have lost his retaliatory attack from panther style after finishing his movement?

Does my question make sense? And if the answer is obvious and I missed it I'm sorry.


If the creature is huge you're just going to lose AOO's except possibly from panther style. Panther style is weird and appears to be GM specific as to it working that way or not. The reason for this is you get your retaliation at the time of the attack (Out of reach) so you can't take it. Panther style waits so I'm not 100% sure.

Option 2: Get enlarged, avoid above rules question.

Scarab Sages

Option 3: The Strike Back feat.


Imbicatus wrote:

Option 3: The Strike Back feat.

Can you strike back within the reach weapon dead zone?


I've read this thread, but it is pretty long and it is easy to miss stuff in these long ones.

I have a couple of questions.

1) Does "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level." mean that a warpriest could take Greater Weapon Focus, and the Weapon Specialization feats?

2) No one really has a way to leverage Sacred Weapon? The enhanced damage seems like it would be tailor made to do something nifty with low damage weapons like whips (that have a lot of other features) but crappy damage.

This would include things like daggers or kukris if you are dual wielding.

I suspect that two handed weapons would still pretty much outdo two weapon fighting, but a warpriest actually could afford to spend a lot of feats on this, and make the weapons hit hard.

The whip has so many other features, that it seems like a very interesting weapon to use for this.

Incidentally would the air blessing let you avoid attacks of opportunity wielding a whip?

Also might Sacred Weapon even be of interest with things like darts, javelins, and sling bullets? Heck, couldn't you designate "rock" as your sacred weapon?


Undone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Option 3: The Strike Back feat.

Can you strike back within the reach weapon dead zone?

I don't seeing strike back as working in the above mentioned scenario? You cannot ready an action "to retaliate with panther style" while your whole intent was to move in close and attack...can you?

And yeah, enlarge and then righteous might pretty much solves it.

Scarab Sages

malaketh wrote:
Undone wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Option 3: The Strike Back feat.

Can you strike back within the reach weapon dead zone?

I don't seeing strike back as working in the above mentioned scenario? You cannot ready an action "to retaliate with panther style" while your whole intent was to move in close and attack...can you?

And yeah, enlarge and then righteous might pretty much solves it.

My bad, I forgot about the need to ready an action to use Strikeback.


Quote:
1) Does "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level." mean that a warpriest could take Greater Weapon Focus, and the Weapon Specialization feats?

That is exactly what it means.

Quote:
2) No one really has a way to leverage Sacred Weapon? The enhanced damage seems like it would be tailor made to do something nifty with low damage weapons like whips (that have a lot of other features) but crappy damage.

Because it's a terrible gimmik and it's bad. There is no way to leverage damage with it because the good weapons are D8 and up.

It's basically as useful as having nothing.

Quote:

This would include things like daggers or kukris if you are dual wielding.

I suspect that two handed weapons would still pretty much outdo two weapon fighting, but a warpriest actually could afford to spend a lot of feats on this, and make the weapons hit hard.

Much like all TWF it's worse than other options. If you want to TWF be a sacred fist and take crusaders flurry. You can TWF without sucking.

Quote:
Incidentally would the air blessing let you avoid attacks of opportunity wielding a whip?

No.

Quote:
Also might Sacred Weapon even be of interest with things like darts, javelins, and sling bullets? Heck, couldn't you designate "rock" as your sacred weapon?

No. You need weapon prof for weapon focus. Rock is an improvised weapon.

All of the above weapons are abysmal hence why sacred weapon is bad. It only helps terrible weapons. If you increased the damage dice by a size category worth it would still barely add damage.

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:


Quote:
2) No one really has a way to leverage Sacred Weapon? The enhanced damage seems like it would be tailor made to do something nifty with low damage weapons like whips (that have a lot of other features) but crappy damage.

Because it's a terrible gimmik and it's bad. There is no way to leverage damage with it because the good weapons are D8 and up.

It's basically as useful as having nothing.

Quote:

This would include things like daggers or kukris if you are dual wielding.

I suspect that two handed weapons would still pretty much outdo two weapon fighting, but a warpriest actually could afford to spend a lot of feats on this, and make the weapons hit hard.

Much like all TWF it's worse than other options. If you want to TWF be a sacred fist and take crusaders flurry. You can TWF without sucking.

All of the above weapons are abysmal hence why sacred weapon is bad. It only helps terrible weapons. If you increased the damage dice by a size category worth it would still barely add damage.

It's not terrible if you worship Pharasma and focus on TWF. Sacred Weapon Damage + River Rat give you the same average damage as a longsword, and Pharasma's obedience gives a +2 to hit with daggers, negating the TWF penalty. You can easily add another +6 to damage from fate's favored divine favor and weapon specialization, and adding Two Weapon Rend.

It's not as good as a two hander, as it takes longer to mature, and Pharasma's blessings suck, but you can make sub-optimal work.


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Undone wrote:
Quote:
1) Does "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level." mean that a warpriest could take Greater Weapon Focus, and the Weapon Specialization feats?

That is exactly what it means.

Quote:
2) No one really has a way to leverage Sacred Weapon? The enhanced damage seems like it would be tailor made to do something nifty with low damage weapons like whips (that have a lot of other features) but crappy damage.

Because it's a terrible gimmik and it's bad. There is no way to leverage damage with it because the good weapons are D8 and up.

It's basically as useful as having nothing.

Quote:

This would include things like daggers or kukris if you are dual wielding.

I suspect that two handed weapons would still pretty much outdo two weapon fighting, but a warpriest actually could afford to spend a lot of feats on this, and make the weapons hit hard.

Much like all TWF it's worse than other options. If you want to TWF be a sacred fist and take crusaders flurry. You can TWF without sucking.

Quote:
Incidentally would the air blessing let you avoid attacks of opportunity wielding a whip?

No.

Quote:
Also might Sacred Weapon even be of interest with things like darts, javelins, and sling bullets? Heck, couldn't you designate "rock" as your sacred weapon?

No. You need weapon prof for weapon focus. Rock is an improvised weapon.

All of the above weapons are abysmal hence why sacred weapon is bad. It only helps terrible weapons. If you increased the damage dice by a size category worth it would still barely add damage.

i generally dislike such sweeping generalizations.

is sacred weapon damage the end all uber ability?
nah, it's not
is scared weapon damage crappy ability?
nope, it is actually a pretty good ability.

for starters:
pick a deity with a ranged weapon as favorite weapon, and pieck your melee weapon with weapon focus:
congratulations, now instead of doing crappy damage with your ranged attacks, you actually do better damage, without sacrifice anything at all.

weapons like whip are far from crap.
it is much more defensive weapon, but a warpriest can do much better.

lastly, it also allows you to go snb without having crap damage

twf:
twf is generally inferior than two handed.
that is usually because:
it needs a lot of feats-> a human warpriest has the same (+3feats/6lvls) number of feats as a human fighter, so he can easily afford them
base damage of light weapons is crap-> base damage for a warpriest is like double-wielding two handers after a level
much higher cost to enchant 2 weapons-> dual enchantment allows you to bypass a LOT of wbl restrictions
warpriest can add to that HIGH static boosts, like divine or destruction blessing that always benefited twf much more than simply two handed

the thing to remember is that it is BASE damage that gets altered. so it gets multiplied on a crit, so weapons like dual kukris become all that better

if you account all the above, it is actually quite possible to make a viable twf warpriest, to the point where it is beyond simply passable but is approaching optimized levels of damage


For everyone wanting to TWF. Just go sacred fist crusaders flurry. Flurry is effectively the same but isn't as feat intensive and has higher to hit. You can even go fighter 1 and wear full plate if you like.

An easier way to get around the weak base damage on a weapon is to use a better weapon. You get full martial prof, use it!

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:


An easier way to get around the weak base damage on a weapon is to use a better weapon. You get full martial prof, use it!

We know that it's not optimal, but, thanks to sacred weapon, warpriest is a great chssis to play a concept of a character who uses a substandard weapon with great skill and make it work.

But the reality is those weapons are terrible. There is no reason to use them when there are better alternatives.

I'm sure we all wanted to play at some point a character that was a deadly knife fighter, was really good with just a club, or someone as deadly with a shortspear as an Aiel. Maybe you just want to use shuriken but are disenchanted by the 1d2 damage and the difficulty of sneak attacks at range.

Warpriest is a way to make these poor choices stay competitive despite there being better options because of sacred damage.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Just attempted to build the Warpriest (Sacred Fist) build as listed. Unfortunately, at 2nd level (Monk MoMS), you've indicated Pummeling Charge, when the feat chain is Pummeling Style / Pummeling Bully / Pummeling Charge.

So, we're looking at:
1st) Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 1- Pummeling Style, B:Improved unarmed strike
2nd) Monk (MoMS) 1 - B:Pummeling Bully
3rd) Monk 2 - Power Attack, B:Pummeling Charge
4th) Warpriest 2
5th) Warpriest 3 - Ki Channel
6th) Warpriest 4 - (gain level 2 spells, channel ability)
7th) Warpriest 5 - Dragon Style
8th) Warpriest 6
9th) Warpriest 7 - Dragon Ferocity (gain level 3 spells)
10th) Warpriest 8 - (free style feat)
11th) Warpriest 9 - Combat Style Master

So, we wouldn't get to Warpriest 10th (so Quicken Blessing is not available until 13th). The Combat Style Master could be picked up at 9th, though.


MoMS can skip the middle feat of style chains.


Steve Mulhern PFS 81365 wrote:

Just attempted to build the Warpriest (Sacred Fist) build as listed. Unfortunately, at 2nd level (Monk MoMS), you've indicated Pummeling Charge, when the feat chain is Pummeling Style / Pummeling Bully / Pummeling Charge.

So, we're looking at:
1st) Warpriest (Sacred Fist) 1- Pummeling Style, B:Improved unarmed strike
2nd) Monk (MoMS) 1 - B:Pummeling Bully
3rd) Monk 2 - Power Attack, B:Pummeling Charge
4th) Warpriest 2
5th) Warpriest 3 - Ki Channel
6th) Warpriest 4 - (gain level 2 spells, channel ability)
7th) Warpriest 5 - Dragon Style
8th) Warpriest 6
9th) Warpriest 7 - Dragon Ferocity (gain level 3 spells)
10th) Warpriest 8 - (free style feat)
11th) Warpriest 9 - Combat Style Master

So, we wouldn't get to Warpriest 10th (so Quicken Blessing is not available until 13th). The Combat Style Master could be picked up at 9th, though.

Have you read monk of many styles? Now take the part where it has prerequisites and erase it.

Dark Archive

Pummeling Charge doesn't require Pummeling Bully, even if you aren't a MoMS. It specifically only requires Pummeling Style and the right amount of Monk/Brawler levels or BAB.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Undone wrote:
Have you read monk of many styles? Now take the part where it has prerequisites and erase it.

Was entering this into Hero Labs to test the build out, and that must be an "undocumented feature" of HL.

-- S.


Hero lab is not exactly a paragon of accuracy.


Pummeling Charge doesn't have pummeling bully as a prereq. You should be able to go style into charge, for anyone who takes this.


Undone wrote:

For everyone wanting to TWF. Just go sacred fist crusaders flurry. Flurry is effectively the same but isn't as feat intensive and has higher to hit. You can even go fighter 1 and wear full plate if you like.

An easier way to get around the weak base damage on a weapon is to use a better weapon. You get full martial prof, use it!

As I've pointed out MULTIPLE times, the Sacred Fist is actually MORE "feat intensive" due to the number of open feat slots available to you when all is said and done, because the Sacred Fist doesn't get nearly as many Bonus Feats.

Adding Crusader's Flurry only eats up yet another slot that the base Warpriest doesn't need to worry about, and Crusader's Flurry doesn't give you increased damage like the Sacred Weapon does - the increase damage on an SF and Monk is only to Unarmed Strikes.

So dual-wielding Kukris as a Warpriest is actually quite insane, especially if you go for a Crit-spamming build; conversely, the Sacred Fist needs to eat up another feat in order to Flurry with a Kukri, and is still only dealing 1d4 damage damage with it.


Here's a Dual-Kukri Crit-Hit build without massive min-maxing:

Stats Str 14(14) / Dex 18(14+2) / Con 14(13+1) / Int 12(12) / Wis 16(14+1+1) / Cha 10

Weapons Masterwork Kukri (2)

Armor Masterwork Agile Breastplate

Race Human Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Dual Enhancement, Double Slice
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 ???
CL6 Wrp6 Weapon Specialization, ???
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 Improved Critical
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Weapon Specialization, ???

lv12, with 1 use of Sacred Weapon and 1 use of Sacred Armor, without Fervor-Cast Haste:

AC 21 (10[base] +6[armor] +3[Dex] +2[Enhancement])

Full Attack Kukri +16 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2) / Kukri +16 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2) / Kukri +11 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2) / Kukri +11 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2)

---

4 open feats, 2 of which are Fighter Bonus Combat Feats.

NO Magic items needed.

Greater Weapon Specialization is optional

Dropping Improved Critical makes you rely on: +1 Keen Kukri (2), but further increases damage to 1d10+8, in addition to freeing a Feat slot; OR keep damage at 1d10+7, drop GWS as well, and gain TWO more Feat Slots, one of which is a lv12 Fighter Bonus Combat Feat.

Deity's Favored Weapon is never addressed, so this can be applied to any Deity, or none at all; a Deity with a Ranged weapon, therefore, would work well as you can then gain the use of a Bow for the Sacred Weapon and have a back-up strategy.


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chbgraphicarts wrote:

Here's a Dual-Kukri Crit-Hit build without massive min-maxing:

Stats Str 14(14) / Dex 18(14+2) / Con 14(13+1) / Int 12(12) / Wis 16(14+1+1) / Cha 10

Weapons Masterwork Kukri (2)

Armor Masterwork Agile Breastplate

Race Human Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Dual Enhancement, Double Slice
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 ???
CL6 Wrp6 Weapon Specialization, ???
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 Improved Critical
CL12 Wrp12 Greater Weapon Specialization, ???

lv12, with 1 use of Sacred Weapon and 1 use of Sacred Armor, without Fervor-Cast Haste:

AC 21 (10[base] +6[armor] +3[Dex] +2[Enhancement])

Full Attack Kukri +16 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2) / Kukri +16 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2) / Kukri +11 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2) / Kukri +11 (1d10+7, 15-20/x2)

---

4 open feats, 2 of which are Fighter Bonus Combat Feats.

NO Magic items needed.

Greater Weapon Specialization is optional

Dropping Improved Critical makes you rely on: +1 Keen Kukri (2), but further increases damage to 1d10+8, in addition to freeing a Feat slot; OR keep damage at 1d10+7, drop GWS as well, and gain TWO more Feat Slots, one of which is a lv12 Fighter Bonus Combat Feat.

Deity's Favored Weapon is never addressed, so this can be applied to any Deity, or none at all; a Deity with a Ranged weapon, therefore, would work well as you can then gain the use of a Bow for the Sacred Weapon and have a back-up strategy.

it is actually much more efficient to use your bonus 6th level feat to grab imp two weapon fighting

and your 12th level bonus feat to grab greater twf

remember, warpriest counts his level as BAB for his bonus feats.

so you are getting imp twf/greater twf before your actual bab allows you.

so something like:
human wp:
lvl1: double slice, twf, weapon focus (kukri)
lvl3: power attack, (open)
lvl5: dual enhancement
lvl6: imp twf, weapon spec
lvl7: (open)
lvl9: critical focus, (open)
lvl11: quicken blessing
lvl12: critical versatility, greater twf

that leaves 3 open feats

if retraining is allowed, you can easily grab stuff like imp weapon focus and such

i would go with:
str 17, dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 14, chr 7
grab a belt of dex+2 by lvl 6
grab a belt of str +4/dex+4 by lvl12
lvlups to str
for something like:
24str 19dex 14con 10int 18wis 7chr
go with fullplate, upgraded to mithral fullplate when i can afford
also +1 keen kukris

grab toughness since it will be tough to afford a physical perfection belt or craft wondrous if allowed
and probably retrain my bonus lvl3 feat to imp weapon focus, and my normal lvl9 feat to another quick blessing

travel domain means swift DD for pseudopounce
or
destruction domain swift for a heafty increase in damage

that should be something like:
+16/+16/+11/+11/+6 bab+str
+2 gr focus
+4weapons
+5att +1extra attack divine power
-2twf
1d10+ 7str +4weapons +5divine + 2weapon spec
to a
+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 -3if PA
for 1d10+18 15-20/x2 +6/+3if PA +6 if destruction blessing
+4 for confirms, every crit adds a stackable 2d6 bleed


shroudb wrote:

it is actually much more efficient to use your bonus 6th level feat to grab imp two weapon fighting

and your 12th level bonus feat to grab greater twf...

Are you even aware that those feats require you to have certain Base Attack Bonuses?

Improved TWF is +6

Greater TWF is +11

The Monk/Sacred Fist don't gain the effects of those added to their Flurry until 9th and 15th level respectively; no 3/4 BAB character can gain those before then.

shroudb wrote:
remember, warpriest counts his level as BAB for his bonus feats.

Where, on Cthulhu's Green Earth, did you get that? The Warpriest counts his level as FIGHTER levels when gaining Bonus Combat Feats - this means for the sake of gaining feats like Weapon Specialization; your Base Attack Bonus isn't considered higher, and if someone is telling you that, they need to be hit upside the head with the CRB.

Your proposal is literally impossible.

Scarab Sages

chbgraphicarts wrote:
shroudb wrote:

it is actually much more efficient to use your bonus 6th level feat to grab imp two weapon fighting

and your 12th level bonus feat to grab greater twf...

Are you even aware that those feats require you to have certain Base Attack Bonuses?

Improved TWF is +6

Greater TWF is +11

The Monk/Sacred Fist don't gain the effects of those added to their Flurry until 9th and 15th level respectively; no 3/4 BAB character can gain those before then.

Your proposal is literally impossible.

It is not impossible for the normal warpriest with bonus feats. The Warpriest treats their class level as BAB for the purpose of qualifying for bonus feats. This means that Improved TWF is a valid selection for a warpriest bonus feat at 6th level. Greater TWF is avlaid choice for the 12th level bonus feat.

This means that warpriests can gain an iterative attack in the off hand before they do on the main hand.

Scarab Sages

chbgraphicarts wrote:


shroudb wrote:
remember, warpriest counts his level as BAB for his bonus feats.

Where, on Cthulhu's Green Earth, did you get that? The Warpriest counts his level as FIGHTER levels when gaining Bonus Combat Feats - this means for the sake of gaining feats like Weapon Specialization; your Base Attack Bonus isn't considered higher, and if someone is telling you that, they need to be hit upside the head with the CRB.

Your proposal is literally impossible.

Reread the class.

Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus for these feats (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and racial Hit Dice). Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.


Imbicatus wrote:

Reread the class.

Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus for these feats (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and racial Hit Dice). Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.

O_O...

I don't know how many times I've read this PDF and didn't see that; I must've skipped right to the "counts levels as fighter" clause.

Well slap my arse and call me Sally - it CAN actually get as many attacks in as a Sacred Fist by lv12 (more if you have a Bite)


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Reread the class.

Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus for these feats (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and racial Hit Dice). Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.

O_O...

I don't know how many times I've read this PDF and didn't see that; I must've skipped right to the "counts levels as fighter" clause.

Well slap my arse and call me Sally - it CAN actually get as many attacks in as a Sacred Fist by lv12 (more if you have a Bite)

yup, it's that good.

(they changed it to that when they changed the sacred weapon from having full bab i think, as a trade i think)


Quote:
(they changed it to that when they changed the sacred weapon from having full bab i think, as a trade i think)

It was compensation for gutting your BAB. It's not good compensation, it's like going from first place to 40th out of 100.

That said the sacred fist reverses the trade and that's the ENTIRE reason it's so good.

Flurry is debatable but possibly better than full BAB.

The only reason the base WP remains competitive damage wise is because quicken spell X times per day is beyond overpowered. They reduced the entire classes's strength based on how strong fervor is. So any archetype which can minimize the effect of or eliminate the 3/4ths bab will be good.

The WP is a great class but it's reduced effectiveness at levels >5 if you're not using specific builds to buy extra attacks is marked, notable, and serious.


Fervor fights with Styles and extra Ki attack in practice so it isn't a simple upgrade. I'm wondering if a pure MoMS Pummeling Charge build outstrips a Sacred Fist in damage in actual play.


Bigguyinblack wrote:
Fervor fights with Styles and extra Ki attack in practice so it isn't a simple upgrade. I'm wondering if a pure MoMS Pummeling Charge build outstrips a Sacred Fist in damage in actual play.

Sacred fist always will

1) Pummeling style does not have to be activated if you don't charge. You can just fervor.
2) Pummeling style is free at 9th.
3) Pummeling dragon style charges do significantly more than any buff you can't get from boots of speed.
4) If they go first just flurry with fervor...

Quote:
I'm wondering if a pure MoMS Pummeling Charge

Neat trick without flurry but your damage will suffer.


Undone wrote:
Bigguyinblack wrote:
Fervor fights with Styles and extra Ki attack in practice so it isn't a simple upgrade. I'm wondering if a pure MoMS Pummeling Charge build outstrips a Sacred Fist in damage in actual play.

Sacred fist always will

1) Pummeling style does not have to be activated if you don't charge. You can just fervor.
2) Pummeling style is free at 9th.
3) Pummeling dragon style charges do significantly more than any buff you can't get from boots of speed.
4) If they go first just flurry with fervor...

Quote:
I'm wondering if a pure MoMS Pummeling Charge
Neat trick without flurry but your damage will suffer.

swift actions

pummeling will still have to be activated prior to lvl9.

that menas that your first swift is 90% of the time just switching on pummeling, before 9.
afte 9 your first action is still activating a style, only this time it is dragon.
next you need a swift for fervor divine X
you also need a fervor or blessing for bypassing DR when applicable
you also need a swift for your blessings
and you finally need a swift for ki

sacred fist still is bottlenecked like normal warpriest by the amount of swift needed.

the only real differance is that warpriest spends a swift for sacred weapon+armor, while the sacred fist spends a swift for his style
and that sacred fist has ki, as an ALTERNATE swift action too, while the normal warpriest just spends them on fervor buffs and blessings.

damage
damage wise, the sacred fist is a bit higher than a twf, because of 1.5x on str vs 1x on str, but a regular warpriest has higher ac due to full plate and free enchant on it
starting with 19 str, both can have up to +8 mod
so the sacred fist will do +12 from str, +16 on his first out of 5attacks, or a total of:
+76 from str
while the wp will do all 5 at +8 for:
+40

but the sacred fist will only have a +3 on his aomf through gmw while the warpriest will have +5 and an extra +1 ability on each of his weapon.

so with weapons that comes out as:
+91 for sacred, +65 for wp, a 26point damage differance IF all attacks hit. IF warpriest uses his "free" +1ability to put vicious, that results in WP having 9 point damage MORE than sacred, but taking a bit of damage himself in the process too.

attack bonus
attack wise a lvl11sacred fist/1moms will have a flurry of:
+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
while a twf lvl2 warpriest will have a
+7/+7/+2/+2/-3
which is 2 lower
again accounting for weapon differance this results in both having an attack bonus of:

BOTH:
+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 when accounting for weapons+bab

feats
sacred needs 4 feats for his 2 styles, +1for style master and has 2 feats less than wp
wp needs twf, imp twf, gr twf, double slice, so 4 feats, and has 2 more through bonus

so standard wp has +3 feats even accounting for the twf feats

imo conclusion
the only real differance, damage/attack/mobility wise is that sacred can do his damage from round 1 while warpriest needs 1 round to close in, or to swift DD on his enemy.

sacred has thus more mobility, warpriest has higher ac but takes a bit damage when he attacks, both are awesome


Quote:
starting with 19 str, both can have up to +8 mod

How in the name of the 9 hells do you get 19 str and 17-19 dex for TWF?

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afte 9 your first action is still activating a style, only this time it is dragon.

It's like people don't even read this feat.

Quote:
Benefit: You can switch your style as a free action. At the start of combat, pick one of your styles. You start the combat in that style, even in the surprise round.
Quote:
the only real differance is that warpriest spends a swift for sacred weapon+armor, while the sacred fist spends a swift for his style

Which are mediocre and terrible respectively.

Quote:
and that sacred fist has ki, as an ALTERNATE swift action too, while the normal warpriest just spends them on fervor buffs and blessings.

In terms of power swift actions go Summoning>Ki attack>Fervor=Pummeling Dragon>Other swifts.

Quote:
damage wise, the sacred fist is a bit higher than a twf, because of 1.5x on str vs 1x on str, but a regular warpriest has higher ac due to full plate and free enchant on it

I guess I should specifically add the part about using mage armor. Your AC will always be higher as a sacred fist if you're paying attention (with at least an 18 wis) after level 4. As levels go higher the disparity will grow.

@Damage, so how much does the warpriest do when he has to move and attack? And don't try to use the travel domain because if you use that he uses pummeling charge + Summoning blessings.

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sacred has thus more mobility, warpriest has higher ac but takes a bit damage when he attacks, both are awesome

The biggest problem is that the two best warpriest builds are the archer which bypasses the mobility issue and uses two absurdly strong feats (Manyshot/rapid shot) to patch the depressing BAB loss. Two handed just doesn't generate the attacks needed to keep up and two weapon has to have drastically inferior stats for 19 Dex.


Undone wrote:
Quote:
starting with 19 str, both can have up to +8 mod

How in the name of the 9 hells do you get 19 str and 17-19 dex for TWF?

Quote:
afte 9 your first action is still activating a style, only this time it is dragon.

It's like people don't even read this feat.

Quote:
Benefit: You can switch your style as a free action.

it is clear as day

At the start of combat, pick one of your styles. You start the combat in that style, even in the surprise round.

you start with ONE style open.

SWITCHING a style is free (but starting a second one is still a swift)
Undone wrote:


Quote:
the only real differance is that warpriest spends a swift for sacred weapon+armor, while the sacred fist spends a swift for his style
Which are mediocre and terrible respectively.

+9damage +2attack +2ac is far from mediocre

Undone wrote:


Quote:
and that sacred fist has ki, as an ALTERNATE swift action too, while the normal warpriest just spends them on fervor buffs and blessings.

In terms of power swift actions go Summoning>Ki attack>Fervor=Pummeling Dragon>Other swifts.

fervor divine power is much, much higher damage than a ki attack. probably dragon style is also higher damage than a ki attack. boosting your crit chance from 1/10 hits to ~1/3 is also higher dpr than a ki attack

summoning, yeah that is probably higher than anything a wp or sacred fist can do

assuming first round you divine power for the exta attack and +5 att and +5 damage on ALL attacks, (which is the second best thing after summoning) then a single attack should do something like:
1d10+8str+3gmw+5(luck) or average: 21.5damage
dragon will boost that by 8 on first attack and 4 on 5 more attacks, ki strike will boost that by a static 21.5, so they equal out when your 2 last iteratives miss, and dragon comes on top when one of the two last iteratives also hits.
10% for double damage on your attacks adds about 2.1 damage, pummelling: boosting that to ~45% (6attacks: (1-(90%-90%-90%-90%-90%-90%))=46% chance to crit) means 0.46*21.5= 9.9 damage. 9.9-2.1=7.8 damage *6 attacks = +46.8 damage if all attacks hit, obviously inflated because some will miss, you may not confirm, etc, too bored to actually calculate the real number, but surely above 24damage)

really, the only reason to swift ki attack is AFTER summoning, AFTER divine power, AFTER 2nd style, and that, IF you don't need your blessing

Undone wrote:


Quote:
damage wise, the sacred fist is a bit higher than a twf, because of 1.5x on str vs 1x on str, but a regular warpriest has higher ac due to full plate and free enchant on it

I guess I should specifically add the part about using mage armor. Your AC will always be higher as a sacred fist if you're paying attention (with at least an 18 wis) after level 4. As levels go higher the disparity will grow.

@Damage, so how much does the warpriest do when he has to move and attack? And don't try to use the travel domain because if you use that he uses pummeling charge + Summoning blessings.

i adress that sacred fist has the upper hand on starting rounds on the end of my post. i point out that even with travel domain, that is 1 more swift, thus round, for standard wp. that is the reason why sacred does higher dps on round one. on subsequent rounds they should be equal.

as for AC... no way?
a mithral full plate is 9ac +3dex. enchanting it to let's say +1 is only 1k afterwards, and you can stack +2 from your fervor (without using an action so free) to provide a +12ac

the sacred fist will have his wis to ac, with a +4headband and a starting wis of let's be generous 18, that comes out as +6 ac. +4 from mage armor so +10ac. He should have +2 DEFLECTION ac from his class feature. so even so, and he has spend his deflection AC.

str sacred warpriest will have lower dex than a dual wielding str focused warpriest, so the differance is even greater (usually +1dex mod vs +3dex mod, or -1 armor +1more dex differance if using eastern armors).

IF the WP spends a swift action to gain dodge ac for 1min through his ki pool, that is still +2 (+3at next level) to his ac. still not enough to reach a normal wp

whereas the wp can use things like ring of protection, or shield of faith or etc to have even higher AC.

Undone wrote:


Quote:
sacred has thus more mobility, warpriest has higher ac but takes a bit damage when he attacks, both are awesome

The biggest problem is that the two best warpriest builds are the archer which bypasses the mobility issue and uses two absurdly strong feats (Manyshot/rapid shot) to patch the depressing BAB loss. Two handed just doesn't generate the attacks needed to keep up and two weapon has to have drastically inferior stats for 19 Dex.

not really, with dual stated human, you still have 2 MORE feats than the standard sacred fist, and you can start with 18str 17dex

an ioun stone will bring that dex up to 19. that is my preffered stat array (18str/17dex/12con/10int/14wis/7chr) i would suggest toughness as for one of your feats (you have spares) to boost the hp. the 19str was with dipping int too, for munchkin amount of damage, but it is far more critical to the sacred fist (due to 1.5str on unarmed with dragon) rather than standard wp (due to only 1str on attacks)

as for bab loss, i just pointed out that sacred fist and warpriest have basically the same attack bonus on lvl 12.


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Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but when the master of many styles switches to another style feat, he can choose one style whose stance is already active to persist.
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Benefit: You can switch your style as a free action. At the start of combat, pick one of your styles. You start the combat in that style, even in the surprise round.
Quote:

you start with ONE style open.

SWITCHING a style is free (but starting a second one is still a swift)

Nope. It's a swift because no action economy reduction in the base class. CSM makes it free. You get both styles since the MoMS just keeps a style when you switch (which is a free action). Again are people actually reading the feat because I don't feel like they are. To be fair it is obscure sort of but still.

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fervor divine power is much, much higher damage than a ki attack. probably dragon style is also higher damage than a ki attack. boosting your crit chance from 1/10 hits to ~1/3 is also higher dpr than a ki attack

Only if you're too poor for boots of speed. Then it's +4 or +5 hit and damage vs an extra attack we both know an extra attack will do more damage. All your math seems to forget it exists. Ki attack is the second best swift after summons... and possible a couple of high level fervored spells.

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i adress that sacred fist has the upper hand on starting rounds on the end of my post. i point out that even with travel domain, that is 1 more swift, thus round, for standard wp. that is the reason why sacred does higher dps on round one. on subsequent rounds they should be equal.

Considering that combat should never go more than about 3 rounds it means the base WP has between 20% and 50% less damage than a SF based on attacks alone.

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as for AC... no way?

a mithral full plate is 9ac +3dex. enchanting it to let's say +1 is only 1k afterwards, and you can stack +2 from your fervor (without using an action so free) to provide a +12ac

A mith plate is horribly cost ineffective. By the time you have a +1 mith plate (10,650g) I can afford a Wand of mage armor, Jingasa of the fortunate warrior, amulet of natural armor 7750g total and have stuff to spare. My AC at level 6 (The earliest level you could reasonably purchase such a plate) would be 23 (10 base 5 wis 4 mage armor, 2 Jingasa, 1 Deflection, 1 natural ZERO dex) which even if you fill out your plate armor with the FULL plus 3 dex puts you solidly at 23 AC for MORE GOLD! at the cost of much lower touch AC. If you allow for 1 or 2 points of dexterity on the monk it is much higher. It gets worse as you get higher wisdom and don't get me started on the pummeling snake style build... that build has AC nearing the 30s extremely early.

If you'd prefer the level 12 builds
Math ahoy

Spoiler:

Assuming you don't gimp yourself and use a shield and we limit ourselves to 40k defensive budget not counting your +5 cloak (Extremely high)

The WP will have a +3 mith full plate (18,650), a +2 Amulet of natural armor (8,000), Jingasa (+2) (5000), +1 insight Ioun Stone (5000) along with +2 from Circle of protection vs evil (Cheaper). Assuming you have the dex you'll have (10 base, +12 armor, +2 natural, +2 Luck, +1 Insight, +2 deflection, +3 dex) which yields an AC of 31. If you want to alter this you can gain a maximum of 1 AC by spending a second third level spell which costs you a 3rd level spell over the SF since you're going to get 8000 gold back (which is mathmatically less valuable than a 3rd level spell).

The Sacred fist will have Wand of Mage armor (750), +2 Amulet of natural armor, Jingasa (+2), 8000 (5000), +1 Insight Ioun Stone (5000), A +6 wis headband since you'd have at least +4 we'll call this 20k out of the defensive budget but if you want to call it less increase the amulet by 1. With Magic vestment running along with mage armor and at least a +1 dex you have 32 (10 base, 7 Wisdom, 7 Armor, Deflection 3, 1 Insight, 2 Luck, 2 Natural) again at a lower cost.


The Sacred fist should have a much higher AC if he's not gimping himself. Considering you have like 6 class features which key off wisdom I'm being extremely generous on the gold allocations here and the SF still has more AC. It's not about potential max AC. It's about cost effective AC and there is NO more cost effective AC than mage armor + Wisdom to AC.

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not really, with dual stated human, you still have 2 MORE feats than the standard sacred fist, and you can start with 18str 17dex

And a WHAT wisdom and con? you're gimping the sustainability of the character for that build. You'll likely have between 2 and 4 less fervors since the SF will prioritize wisdom and you'll likely have a ~14. You're going to get to cast fewer fervored spells in practice for a long time.

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rather than standard wp (due to only 1str on attacks)

And half for the off hands. And half PA for the off hands where as the sacred fist gets either full PA or Two handed PA for all attacks (Subject to table variation, this isn't something I'd hinge this on). Your off hands tickle while the sacred fist uses his off hand to destroy the stone door in front of him.

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as for bab loss, i just pointed out that sacred fist and warpriest have basically the same attack bonus on lvl 12.

I'm not sure what to say to this. You realize -2 to hit is equal to 2 full feats right?

EDIT: The build you're talking about isn't bad the sacred fist just does it better. That's why I recommend it over TWF builds. I know this because I built TWF over and over trying to make it work but it just doesn't. HOWEVER there is an archetype which does make it work in ACO which gives you sneak attack for your sacred weapon which is incredibly powerful.


Undone wrote:
stuff

you dont need boots of speed imo. better to go for boots of fly. you gain free attack from divine power

as for full plate, it is cheaper to go +2wis headband and mitril fullplate rather than +4wis that i calculated for the sacred fist

and the warpriest DOESNT has -2 to attack compared to the sacred. He has the exact same, because he is using +5weapons (sacred+gmw vs sinmple gmw) for an extra +2 to attack.

lastly, for the ki attack, look at my clalculations at dps.
assuming that you use free action to activate both styles, which i admit was something i missed from the way fuse style works. it is still better to open up with summoning->fervor divine power-> and then ki strike if and only if you dont need something more from your blessings (like bypassing dr)

even WITH boots of haste:
+5 attack/+5damage for 6 attacks is much higher dpr than a straight attack
run the calculations yourself and see

AC i think i covered you, they can have the same things, and the WP will still have more (because there is no need to rush +4headband on him, +2 will do fine till you have the money)
you dont need a +3 mithril fp. a +0 is fine, you can magic vestment it to +3 and free action do it +5 (10.5k) (+14)
circle prot from evil +2 (free) (+2)
jingasa (8k) (+2)
3 dex (+3)
insight (5k) (+1)
amulet of nat armor +2 (8k) (+2)
and will have a headband of wis +2 (4k) (+0)
for a cost of 31.5k you have 9+5+2+2+3+1+2+10=34ac

an equal geared/level sacred will have:
4 from mage armor (0.7)
2 from vestments (free)
2 from nat (8k)
2 from jingasa (8k)
1 insight (5k)
2 from wis+4 headband (16k)
4 from starting wis 18
2deflection (from feature)
+1from dex

so WP 34ac with 35.5k, or even better 34ac but 1 higher touch ac with mithral o-yoroi for 35.7k
sacred fist for 30ac with 37.7k

even claculating the +2dex ioun stone, by dropping amulet to +1 and removing the insight ac ioun, WP still has better ac (by 2) for 1k less equip.

realistically, he can have:
mithril fp: 10.5
2x +1 kukri: 4.6
belt con/str +4: 40
headband wis+4: 16k
pair of cracked ioun dex+2: 12k
jingasa: 8k
amulet+1: 2k
pearl 1 (2) :2k
wand of cure light: 750
~13k left (maybe upgrading the kukris to keen to save a feat.. dunno)

with custom crafting, going belt +4str/+2dex/+2con would net him another 24k to spend (upgrading to +6str/+2con/+2dex will still leave him with 4k extra, or a total of 17k for more defensive optioons or keen weapons or more pearls and etc)


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you dont need boots of speed imo. better to go for boots of fly. you gain free attack from divine power

You don't get it. The optimal turns are

1) Free action styles, Free action haste, Summon to flank for full attack, Pummeling charge into flanking at +4 to hit total on all attacks (since it's 1 attack).
2) As above but swift to ki attack.
3) As above until 7 attacks a turn.

Quote:

an equal geared/level sacred will have:

4 from mage armor (0.7)
3 from vestments (free)
2 from nat (8k)
2 from jingasa (8k)
1 insight (5k)
3 from wis+6 headband (36k)
4 from starting wis 18
3 deflection (from feature)
+1from dex

Corrected. I'm sometimes curious if you're actually paying attention to the numbers since you have multiple instances where you're not getting the numbers right.

In your proposed situation you don't have a bonus 4th and wont ever have a bonus 5th. Again you suffer without a 15 minute adventuring day with the above gear. Did I mention your boots of fly are covered by my air walk bonus spell from high wis and I have 2 bonus level 3 spells on you since you have to use 2 spells.

You ALSO make an incorrect assumption about amulet of mighty fists. Greater magic weapon can be applied to a monk's fists (but not a straight sacred fist) which means you're ahead on gold for your weapon. Considering you spend so much on weapons for your 2 precious +5 weapons to break even It seems odd to me this is even a discussion for damage.

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you dont need a +3 mithril fp. a +0 is fine, you can magic vestment it to +3 and free action do it +5 (10.5k) (+14)

Have you even read sacred armor?

Spoiler:
At 7th level, the warpriest gains the ability to enhance his armor with divine power as a swift action. This power grants the armor a +1 enhancement bonus. For every 3 levels beyond 7th, this bonus increases by 1 (to a maximum of +5 at 19th level). The warpriest can use this ability a number of minutes per day equal to his warpriest level. This duration must be used in 1-minute increments, but they don't need to be consecutive.

These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the armor might have, to a maximum of +5. The warpriest can enhance armor any of the following armor special abilities: energy resistance (normal, improved, and greater), fortification (heavy, light, or moderate), glamered, and spell resistance (13, 15, 17, and 19). Adding any of these special abilities replaces an amount of bonus equal to the special ability's base cost. For this purpose, glamered counts as a +1 bonus, energy resistance counts as +2, improved energy resistance counts as +4, and greater energy resistance counts as +5. Duplicate abilities do not stack. The armor must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus before any other special abilities can be added.

The enhancement bonus and armor special abilities are determined the first time the ability is used each day and cannot be changed until the next day. These bonuses apply only while the warpriest is wearing the armor, and end immediately if the armor is removed or leaves the warpriest's possession. This ability can be ended as a free action at the start of the warpriest's turn. This ability cannot be applied to a shield.

When the warpriest uses this ability, he can also use his sacred weapon ability as a free action by expending one use of his fervor.

You will NEVER get an activation of sacred weapon or sacred armor unless you're giving up damage.

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even claculating the +2dex ioun stone, by dropping amulet to +1 and removing the insight ac ioun, WP still has better ac (by 2) for 1k less equip.

Because you're willfully using wrong numbers. There are three things wrong in your above build alone which brings it to within 1 point and then you try to use sacred armor to justify it which is something which will never be running. How about this you build your standard 20pb standard WBL character TWF character and post it. I'll reply with a character that has higher DPR and ac along with (likely) better saves and spell casting.


dude i already assume one round activation of sacred weapon+sacred armor

also at lvl 12 if you have a +6 wis headband i would really like to see what you sacrifice because then stat wise alone you spend 76k out of 108k just for 2 items... add the jingasa, amulet+2, haste boots, ioun you are already at ~100/108k

+4wis is the most realisitc

at 12 lvl, you are only 11 level warpriest

so 2deflection
and 2 from vestment

you aare calculating wrong level

and no, my numbers are within wbl, not wrong, yours are with +1lvl char and above wbl

warpriest will have more armor with same money on same lvl than sacred.

as for mithral full plate being inneficient, wut? it is 8850gp for a +2 to armor. similar to 8k for a +2 from an amulet, or a +2 for 8k ring , or etc, with the differance that it stacks with the above 2 i said.

as for haste vs fly for boots. sure haste is a dps boost by one round. fly are universally more useful though because you apply your damage to all opponents instead of 2/3. and +5/+5 still trumps one attack when you have 6 already, so divine X is not a waste, and it gives you the haste attack as a freebie


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dude i already assume one round activation of sacred weapon+sacred armor

You don't get a round to buff. That's the entire point. You want to buff +2 AC with sacred armor? I'll just be lazy and use cat's grace but there's a ton of reasons for this.

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also at lvl 12 if you have a +6 wis headband i would really like to see what you sacrifice because then stat wise alone you spend 76k out of 108k just for 2 items... add the jingasa, amulet+2, haste boots, ioun you are already at ~100/108k

You save a lot not buying a weapon and using GMW.

Quote:

so 2deflection

and 2 from vestment

you aare calculating wrong level

and no, my numbers are within wbl, not wrong, yours are with +1lvl char and above wbl

First off you never said we weren't starting at level 12 which would make me straight SF. Secondly these are my base items for that level if I have 11 levels to play prior to that. Thirdly while you're right about the deflection bonus if I start off lower than level 12 you're still wrong about magic vestment because magical knack exists and as you'll note is one of the only traits I point out in the guide.

Spoiler:
36k +6 wis
36k +6 Str
4k +2 Cloak
4k +1 Hit Ioun Stone
2k Natural armor ammy
5k Jingasa
5k Insight Ioun Stone
12k Boots of speed
Wand of mage armor

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as for mithral full plate being inneficient, wut? it is 8850gp for a +2 to armor. similar to 8k for a +2 from an amulet, or a +2 for 8k ring , or etc, with the differance that it stacks with the above 2 i said.

This is proof to me you aren't looking at actual tables. Mithral

A mith full plate is 10,650g

Cost wise armor increases go something like this

Spoiler:

+1 armor 1k
+1 shield 1k
+1 amulet of natural armor 2k
+1 Ring of deflection 2k
+2 armor 3k
+2 Shield 3k
+2 belt of dex 4k
+1 Jingasa of the fortunate warrior 5k
+1 Ioun stone 5k
+3 Armor 5k
+3 Shield 5k
+2 amulet of natural armor 6k
+2 ring of deflection 6k
+4 armor 7k
+4 shield 7k
+2 dex ioun stone 8k
Mithral added to full plated 9k

While I'm sure I missed one or two possible points of armor but these are applicable across the board in terms of cost effectiveness. I suppose you could say it adds 2 points of AC so it's effectively 4,500 but that's still not hugely cost effective since jingasa provides 2 ac and negates a crit.

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as for haste vs fly for boots. sure haste is a dps boost by one round. fly are universally more useful though because you apply your damage to all opponents instead of 2/3. and +5/+5 still trumps one attack when you have 6 already, so divine X is not a waste, and it gives you the haste attack as a freebie

Air walk covers fly. The superior wisdom modifier gives you more 4th level spells which is equal to actually literally a boots of fly. It's also a standard action to activate the 16,000g winged boots. So you're literally forfeiting a turn. It's not that it's a waste. It's just sub optimal. Boots of speed are critical because it's a point of AC, an extra action, and also a ton of movement speed to charge with.

As I said post a build and stop trying to live in the land of Schrodinger.


sigh...

i've already posted a build..

satt points, equipment and etc are all covered in the above

i don't know what tables you look, but amulet of nat armor is 8k not 6k

adding mithril to a full plate is 8850 (9000 but covers the 150gp masterwork component)
you posted about having an amulet of nat armor+2, which costs 8k, i argued that the 8.850 of mithril is not far off, and stacks with an amulet of nat armor for cost effectivness (p.e. amulet+1 and mithril comes out as 11k and provides an effective +3ac, while a straight amulet +3 is more expensive than that)

you dont need to + the armor, yes, it is cost effective to do so, but you already hit the limit of +5 with vestments and sacred armor

and if you don't go moms you lose fuse style, which offers a great deal of dpr.
if you look at my calculations in posts above, 6hits with pummeling (assuming 6 hit) and imp critical offer something like ~45% crit rate, instead of 10% which is huge.
and dragon style's 2x and 1.5x damage is also too much to simply pass.

without fuse style, i think that sacred is lower dpr than a straight wp, havent run the numbers because it seems like a huge loss just from a look at it.

as a referance:

human wp lvl12 (deity whatever)
traits: fate's favored, open

str 18 dex 17 con 12 int 10 wis 14 chr 7

lvl1: twf, weapon focus (kukri)
lvl3: (open), double slice
lvl5: dual enhancement
lvl6: imp twf, weapon spec
lvl7: (open)
lvl9: critical focus, (open)
lvl11: quicken blessing
lvl12: critical versatility, greater twf

if retraining allowed: retrain lvl 3 bonus feat to gr weapon focus, retrain lvl 9 feat to second quicken blessing, retrain lvl 7 to imp critical

items:
mithril fp: 10.5
belt con/str +4: 40
headband wis+4: 16k
pair of cracked ioun dex+2: 12k
jingasa: 8k
amulet+1: 2k
pearl 1 (2) :2k
wand of cure light: 750
clok of res +3
rod of lesser extend
~5.6k left

with custom crafting allowed: drop the ioun, switch the belt to +6str/+2con/+2dex
upgrade the cloak to +4

attbonus (with pfs rules items):
precasted:
circle of prot from evil (4h), gmw (12h), vestments (24h)

+9/+4 bab
+7str
+2focus
-2dual
+3weapon

+19/+19/+14/+14/+9

with divine power:
+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14
with divine power +sacred:
+26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16

damage:
1d10+12+ 2d6 bleed on crit (stacking)

with dp:
1d10+17 +2d6bleed on crit(stacking)
with dp+sacred
1d10+18+2d6 +2d6 bleed on crit (stacking)
if destruction blessing:
1d10+24+2d6 +2d6 bleed on crit (stacking)

crit: 15-20x2

ac:
10+8 (oyoroi) +4 (dex) +2 deflection +2luck + 5enh +1 nat: 32

the differance is that he needs 1 more round to bring forth compared to the sacred fist, i give you that, one first round sacred fist wins, one subsequent, they are on equal terms.


Quote:

sigh...

i've already posted a build..

Feats, Items, Traits, stats, everything is a build. You give attack bonuses without listing the full build. You give items its true but the rest of the list is missing.

Quote:
i don't know what tables you look, but amulet of nat armor is 8k not 6k

8k - 2k = 6k

Quote:
adding mithril to a full plate is 8850 (9000 but covers the 150gp masterwork component)

This is not how you add mithral. You're now intentionally being obtuse. You cannot possibly believe this can you? Post it in the rules forum if you don't believe me.

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you posted about having an amulet of nat armor+2, which costs 8k, i argued that the 8.850 of mithril is not far off, and stacks with an amulet of nat armor for cost effectivness (p.e. amulet+1 and mithril comes out as 11k and provides an effective +3ac, while a straight amulet +3 is more expensive than that)

I went ahead and replaced it with boots of speed which also provide 1 AC but it goes to touch.

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you dont need to + the armor, yes, it is cost effective to do so, but you already hit the limit of +5 with vestments and sacred armor

So I wasn't going to get into this argument but it's fairly clear that magic vestment doesn't stack with anything it overlaps. You will sacred armor to +2 to AC placing the bonus at +3 then magic vestment will apply and check what AC you're at. Then it will be +3. It doesn't matter that sacred armor says it stacks because it stacks with the actual armor not the spell. This isn't definite but it seems likely which is why I was avoiding it.

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and if you don't go moms you lose fuse style, which offers a great deal of dpr.

if you look at my calculations in posts above, 6hits with pummeling (assuming 6 hit) and imp critical offer something like ~45% crit rate, instead of 10% which is huge.
and dragon style's 2x and 1.5x damage is also too much to simply pass.

Does it really offer more DPR than summoning up a tier? I highly doubt it.

Additionally the sacred fist gets +4 to hit on the first turn from both flanking and charging.

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without fuse style, i think that sacred is lower dpr than a straight wp, havent run the numbers because it seems like a huge loss just from a look at it.

I doubt it. +7 to +8 damage is less than improved spell levels and more importantly improved summons. The dire lion is +6 to hit over his regular counterpart and +2 damage. Just as a point. Not to mention improved SLA's. I've mentioned before starting at level 12+ it's very likely that straight sacred fist is stronger. If we really want to get into optimal for raw damage it doesn't even use summons. It uses the greater air blessing quickened for +5/6/7 times level electrical damage.


Undone wrote:
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sigh...

i've already posted a build..

Feats, Items, Traits, stats, everything is a build. You give attack bonuses without listing the full build. You give items its true but the rest of the list is missing.

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i don't know what tables you look, but amulet of nat armor is 8k not 6k

8k - 2k = 6k

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adding mithril to a full plate is 8850 (9000 but covers the 150gp masterwork component)

This is not how you add mithral. You're now intentionally being obtuse. You cannot possibly believe this can you? Post it in the rules forum if you don't believe me.

Quote:
you posted about having an amulet of nat armor+2, which costs 8k, i argued that the 8.850 of mithril is not far off, and stacks with an amulet of nat armor for cost effectivness (p.e. amulet+1 and mithril comes out as 11k and provides an effective +3ac, while a straight amulet +3 is more expensive than that)

I went ahead and replaced it with boots of speed which also provide 1 AC but it goes to touch.

Quote:
you dont need to + the armor, yes, it is cost effective to do so, but you already hit the limit of +5 with vestments and sacred armor

So I wasn't going to get into this argument but it's fairly clear that magic vestment doesn't stack with anything it overlaps. You will sacred armor to +2 to AC placing the bonus at +3 then magic vestment will apply and check what AC you're at. Then it will be +3. It doesn't matter that sacred armor says it stacks because it stacks with the actual armor not the spell. This isn't definite but it seems likely which is why I was avoiding it.

Quote:

and if you don't go moms you lose fuse style, which offers a great deal of dpr.

if you look at my calculations in posts above, 6hits with pummeling (assuming 6 hit) and imp critical offer something like ~45% crit rate, instead of 10% which is huge.
and dragon style's 2x and 1.5x damage is also too much to simply pass.
Does it really offer more DPR than summoning up a tier? I highly doubt it....

that 6k is like making numbers up.

yes, upgrading from a +1amulet to +2 is 6k. but it gives +1 to ac
about mithral:
straight from the mithral section:
Quote:
Cost Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

i compared the straight +2 to ac given from mithral property, which costs 9k (8.850 +masterwork) with the straight ac bonus given by a ring or an amulet which is in both occasions 8k

i posted the build above
sacred armor states that it stacks with everything, so i dont see why it wont stack with magic vestments:

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These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the armor might have

ANY existing bonuses, regadrless the source

as for general builds, i design them to be viable at lvl 1/4/8/12 going straight sacred will really hinder early game

summons were not included cause everyone has access to them.
the only mention of blessing was about destruction, because static damage boosts for crit heavy multiple attacks stack up really fast, but the same can be said about sacred fist, they are equally good.


Jimmy, why are Mommy and Daddy fighting?


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Aside from some formatting issues this guide is pretty awesome especially with having several example builds.

One thing I can't agree with is your disdain for Sacred weapon...the scaling damage die alone makes low damage specialty weapons like whips WAY more effective or if someone wants to use an underpowered/flavour weapon.

Personally I think a Kusarigama wielding WP could be quite effective if you work in the Tripping line (or grapple or disarm)especially since your not screwed if the enemy gets adjacent to you.


Other then the bonus to touch attacks is there any reason my Sacred Fist can't use a Mithral chain shirt with the Brawling enchant and a Mithral large shield? My 16 Wis won't come near a +1 Mithral chain shirt and +1 Mithral large shield.


Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:
Aside from some formatting issues this guide is pretty awesome especially with having several example builds.

I'm not sure how to edit the formatting issue in G Docs or I would.

Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:
One thing I can't agree with is your disdain for Sacred weapon...the scaling damage die alone makes low damage specialty weapons like whips WAY more effective or if someone wants to use an underpowered/flavour weapon.

I'm just not impressed by it except at very high levels. The active is strong but consumes a swift I fully expect a feat to eventually come out which makes it a free action.

Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:
Personally I think a Kusarigama wielding WP could be quite effective if you work in the Tripping line (or grapple or disarm)especially since your not screwed if the enemy gets adjacent to you.

People keep saying this but every time I see it I think

1) 5 Foot step
2) Armor spikes
3) Why did they get adjacent through the AOO which can be a trip if you wanted or pushing assault?
4) Dwarven Helm
5) Unarmed strike as a SF.

Quote:


Other then the bonus to touch attacks is there any reason my Sacred Fist can't use a Mithral chain shirt with the Brawling enchant and a Mithral large shield? My 16 Wis won't come near a +1 Mithral chain shirt and +1 Mithral large shield.

The sacred fist could use mith full plate and mith tower shield with prof.

Although it should be noted magic vestment + mage armor exists. You should get more out of that unless you have prof in light armor and shields. However a level of fighter/paladin makes heavy armor and shield a viable choice since you can still pummeling charge and full attack with 2x str.

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