There is only 1 unarmed strike made during a pummeling style attack.
You're actually disproving your own damage numbers with your quotes.
Pummeling dragon is unique because it's the only way to get 2x str on every single roll for a round (and probably 1 to 3 PA but this is table variance). This is where the major issue is coming from. Pummeling style is only 1 attack. As such it get's 2x damage to every single damage roll (or 2.5 with horn) while the others cannot replicate that.
The problem is interpretation of both Dragon Style/Ferocity and Pummeling Style:
While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes (see errata at right).
You still make separate rolls to determine attacks hitting, and roll damage based on those numbers of attacks.
One interpretation is that they're all separate "weapon damage rolls"; the other is that they're a single "weapon damage roll."
There hasn't been any official word one way or the other on this, but since "you deal the normal amount of damage" it's safe to assume that they are, in fact, separate damage rolls all targeting a single spot (like Clustered Shots, which Pummeling Style is very similar to).
If they are, in fact, separate damage rolls, it's safe to assume that only the first gets Dragon Style + Ferocity added to it, with Dragon Ferocity only adding to the remainder.
Looking around, with the new wording for Dragon Ferocity, there's contention among people as to whether Ferocity + Horn of the Criosphinx actually does hit 2.5x Str or if your Str Bonus to damage caps it at 2x, period.
While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks.
With that in mind, and adding in Air Blessing to both setups, dealing damage based on the number of weapons (as you said):
SACRED FIST 11 / MASTER of MANY STYLES 1
(Dragon Ferocity doesn't stack with Horn of the Criosphinx)
2d8 + 5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored) + 3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon) + 11(Electricity, Air Blessing) + 6(Power Attack) + 16(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x 7
=
350 damage (no critical)
WARPRIEST 12
1d10 + 5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored) + 3(Enhancement, Sacred Weapon) + 12(Electricity, Air Blessing) + 6(Power Attack) + 4(Greater/Weapon Specialization) + 1(Trait, Heavy Hitter) + 7(Ability, Dex) x 3 [Mainhand Attacks] 130.5
+
1d10 + 5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored) + 3(Enhancement, Sacred Weapon) + 12(Electricity, Air Blessing) + 3(Power Attack) + 4(Greater/Weapon Specialization) + 1(Trait, Heavy Hitter) + 7(Ability, Dex) x 3 [Offhand Attacks] 121.5
+
1d10 + 5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored) + 3(Enhancement, Sacred Weapon) + 12(Electricity, Air Blessing) + 3(Power Attack) + 4(Greater/Weapon Specialization) + 1(Trait, Heavy Hitter) + 3(Ability, Dex) x 3 [Bite/Claws] 109.5
=
361.5 damage (no critical)
SACRED FIST 11 / MASTER of MANY STYLES 1
(Dragon Ferocity stacks with Horn of the Criosphinx)
2d8 + 5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored) + 3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon) + 11(Electricity, Air Blessing) + 6(Power Attack) + 20(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x 7
=
378 damage (no critical)
---
So, with what you've suggested - Magical Knack for the SF, Air Blessing, Horn of the Criosphinx, etc., whether the SF does more than a Warpriest with 3 Natural attacks comes down to whether your DM allows Horn of the Criosphinx (since it's from a Player's Companion) and if they do, how it interacts with Dragon Ferocity.
If it's not allowed or if it's ruled to not stack with Dragon Ferocity, then the 2 extra attacks win out for damage.
If it's allowed and if it's ruled to stack with Ferocity, then the SF does out-damage a Natural-Weapons based WP.
And +3 for reckless abandon, Possibly +3 for witch hunter, and +6 from PA due to reckless rage in addition to being nearly a mono stat class likely meaning it can start a 20 in str while the WP cannot. ... There is also no equal to CaGM basically in the entire game. It's nearly unparalleled in DPR.
If you want to get into potential further bonuses, things like reckless abandon and reckless rage aren't any more notable than what can be done with sacred weapon and blessings.
Really if we're just cherry-picking the best possible options to make a general case here, then a high-level Destruction blessing crossed with dropping ++1, Holy or whatever onto a weapon is going to add an absolute truckload of damage; by level 12 we're talking about something like +6+1+2d6.
CaGM is a unique, specialized high-level option that works extremely well when it's applicable; of course, if we're getting into that sort of thing, the Divine Champion Warpriest can use Paladin-style Smiting. I would say that high level specializations like these are a bit out of place when making general statements for a guide, however.
As far as mono stat classes go, the Warpriest's need for a minimally positive wisdom isn't really any worse than the Barbarian's Raging Vitality requirements, but either way that's a rather small issue in the grand scheme of things.
The loss of an iterative is however very large.
As I already pointed out above, an extra -10 iterative works out to around +16% damage on a full attack if Haste is active from another source; if it's not, then Divine Power can push the Warpriest ahead by that much at least. Conceptually it seems like an extra attack should be a huge, huge deal, but by the time a -10 attack is possible it's being statistically drowned out by multiple attacks with a larger overall chance to hit. It also has zero relevance for any single attacks, so that '+16%' is actually considerably less relevant still.
Anyways... I'm not saying that the Warpriest is a better all-around two-handed combatant than anything else. I'm just trying to point out - by numerical comparison to a class that's arguably the benchmark for smashing things up two-handed - that you might want to reconsider your statement regarding it "falling far, far behind".
@Undone
I think that most people actually do get how you think Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge work. I even have to say that the analogy of the reversed manyshot is clever, really.
I also think that your interpretation is taking what the feats are intended to do far out of context and I think most GMs would argue that your interpretation far exeeds what is reasonable and fair for the feat to do (for all rules 'lawyers' out there reasonableness and fairness are actual legal terms in Dutch contract law, sometimes trumping the contract as written :D). This does not even take into account that the feat does not even do a very good job of providing ironclad written rules, leaving a lot of ambiguity in and of itself.
Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the text says you combine all your attacks in one punch which counts as one attack for the purposes of DR and other feats.
However, you conveniently forget to adress that according to the feat attacks are resolved:
"with the normal attack bonus for each attack" and for each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage."
Let's examine that shall we?
What is a normal attack bonus? Well, they are the attack bonusses that you apply to each of your attack, ie Bab/Bab -5/Bab -10. Correct, right? Your attacks are resolved as normal. Your first attack of your attack potential gets resolved as normal, your second as normal, your third as normal, natural attacks if applicable through Feral Combat training are also resolved as normal.
I would extend that conclusion to Pummeling Charge aswell. Your attacks get resolved as normal. If you charge you can normally make one attack at +2 to hit. However, due to pummeling charge you now make a full attack or a flurry.
Would, if all attacks be resolved separately on a pounce, the charge +2 bonus apply to each attack? I do not think we can answer that directly. The FAQ on lances seems to indicate you do not (since you lost forward momentum), also the text on charge states that you get +2 on THE attack roll (excluding imo AoOs and subsequent attacks that you can make as part of the pounce). If you can find a FAQ or thread to contradict me I'd be interested, I couldn;t find one.
Following your reading of the rules, all attacks should be reseolved as if they are the first attack. What does this entail: Furious Focus works on all attacks? Should secondary natural attacks be resolved as 'first attacks' ie get 1.5x strength and no -5 to hit?
Again, I do not think so. I think providing a charge and Furious Focus that you'd attack you'd attack at BAB +2 (charge)/ Bab -5/BAB -10. If power attacking at -2/+4, you'd attack BAB +2 (charge+Furious Focus)/Bab -7/Bab -12 etc. Just as you normally would.
The same, I would say, goes for calculating damage. You do this as normal. You resolve your damage as you would a normal hit. Ie, first attack benefits from Dagon Style, Dragon Ferocity/ Horn of the Criosphinx/ Janni Rush etc. The subsequent attacks are resolved as normal as well. Ie, as if they were part of a regular full-attack or flurry, the only difference being that you total the damage befpore applying it to a creature (and hence DR). The fact that you roll damage as normal is also why you can add the weapon damage multiple times, magical bonus multiple times etc.
Sneak attack would be a hole different problem, but here I would also go with the normal rules: multiple times if flanking or if the opponent remains flat-footed (greater invis), but only once if you pummeling style in the surprise round, in which case the opponent stops being flat-footed after the first attack as per the normal rules.
What then are the advantages of the feats?
Pummeling Style:
- a way to punch through DR (solving a major problem for unarmed builds)
- A Higher chance to crit, as one confirmed crit makes all attacks that hit into crits. (No, it does not turn any misses of your normal routine into hits and crits).
Pummeling Charge:
- You get mobility and solve another of the monks perceived flaws (no full-attacks when mobile)
Those are the advantages.Tthough it is problematic that the feat does not spell out the effect on DR like Clustered Shot does, so we could even argue that you do indeed handle damage 'normally' and that this implies it does not negate DR as the feat does not spell this out. Like I said, ambiguity. Normal damage means normal damage including DR and adding it to previous damage which has also already gone through DR, but I would find it reasonable to include the DR component, although the crit advantage alone makes this a good feat.
What the feat does not do? Anything else. It does not allow Furious Focus to apply to all attacks, nor does it let you treat your entire attack routine as a "first attack" for the purposes of Janni Style, Dragon Style or any other feat that applies to the first attack.
Not only does that reading ignore the mechanical explanation of the feat (normal attack bonuses and normal damage), it is also far from reasonable to assume the feats would do that, as that would impact on the value of so many other feats and it is hard to image such a power in one feat and hard to image the developers have intended the implications that this feat then also makes a number of other feats infinitely stronger.
The wording of the feat saying you make one devastating punch is nothing but flavour. One devastating punch is not a game term. Your understanding of the feat is that this piece of fluff-text has a host of implications. But in a 'permissive' rules system, like pathfinder is in my opinion, the feat should spell out those implications:
It could have read: For the purposes of this style treat this [Full-Attack or Flurry of Blows] as a single attack with regard to Damage Reduction/Other Feats/Feats which specify first attacks etc.
However, what it says is: Use normal attack bonus and normal damage, like you would any other time you make a full-attack or a flurry.
I actually wonder why people are so deadset on arguing that feats have such far reaching implications when they could just apply Occam's Razor and be done.
In this I am not referring solely to you Undone, as I actually think you usually (99% of the time :P) make very good and provocative points as to how the rules work or how you could interpret wording to allow for loopholes in those rules. I just see a tendency on the boards to go a) rather literal on rules without looking at context or b) very liberal with the rules to allow for the biggest power gain.
But I guess that is neither here nor there, I apologize for this rehash of a debate we will not get solved till there is a FAQ or an errata. Great guide, I will absolutely refer back to it when making a Warpriest to bug my players with in one of our next sessions :).
I am not denying that it gets resolved as a single attack. It does, hence the DR component to the feat.
The question is how the individual attack rolls, damage rolls and modifiers are resolved which determine the strength of that one attack. The way that this is done is to make attacks at your normal attack bonus applicable for any attack you could normally make as part of the full-atttack or flurry of blows. The key word here being normal, which is explicitely mentioned in the feat.
For each attack that is a hit you do two things: First, you calculate your normal damage per hit. Again, normal as if you were taking a normal full-round attack or making a flurry. The modifiers you use could be different depending on which attack roll it refers to: x2 STr on your first hit, 1x5 Str on subsequent attack rolls
You total that damage. Then you check if any attack roll threatens a critical. If so, try to confirm and multiply the damage as required. This damage you apply to the opponent in the form of a single punch, deducting DR at that point.
You are getting hung up on the fact that is a single attack, but you fail to address the fact that the way in which to determine the strength of that attack is by using the normal rules you'd follow on a regular full-attack or flurry.
Adding the benefits of Dragon Style, Ferocity, Janni Rush and Horn of the Criosphinx (on a level 8 MoMS) on each individual attack roll is not only completely ridiculous and beyond reasonable, it also completely ignores the feat text which tells you to handle handle individual attack rolls within the attack as normal attacks with normal damage, following all the normal rules.
The feats are still completely functional if read this way, providing higher crit chance, a way to handle DR and a way to pounce. Not at all bad for a two feats (three if you count IUS).
I have no doubt that it will be impossible to sway you, but unless an errata follows GMs will have to rule how Pummeling Style/Charge works and I would be highly surprised if many would judge the feats to work the way according to your reading.
The problem is you assume the other people don't have boots of speed. So you're still down an attack. I mentioned this before but it was not addressed.
The calculation I posted above was based on the assumption that both characters were receiving a haste-like effect one way or another:
the situation with Haste looks like 90/65/40/*90 with a third iterative, or 90/65/*90 without it. The difference in average hits is 285 vs 245, meaning that the increase in damage from a third iterative is around +16%.
In rough terms, 33% more attack, but at 1/2 chance to hit with it.
If I was using a situation where the full martial doesn't have a friendly Haste or his Boots of Speed are out of juice or whatever, it would be 195 vs 245, or 20% in favor of the Warpriest.
After level 12 there is no class which competes with a full round of come and get me. Before level 10 without pounce your total damage per fight will be lower than the beast totem unless you can charge/pounce.
Don't get me wrong, CaGM is enormously powerful - assuming 'they' try to come and get him; likewise Beast Totem, though of course there's that Warpriest trick of using swift Travel blessing.
However as I've said before, I'm not out to prove that the Warpriest is out-damaging a heavily optimized Barbarian. I'm simply pointing out that when your guide is telling people that the two-handed Warpriest, in general, will be at a major disadvantage compared to full-BAB martials in general, you're perhaps overstating the case, and making someone looking for guidance on the class think that they're going to be sadly behind what any full BAB class could do with a two-hander.
May have been covered in the spoilers, but you can't fervor blood crow strike. It doesn't target yourself, but its victim.
Undone, play the feat whichever way you like.
Feel free to ignore the fact that the feat specifies that each of your itteratives are handled as normal.
Yes, the general rule is that if you make one 'attack' this is also your first attack. However, specific rules trump general rules. And in this case the feat specifies that despite it being one attack the way this attack is resolved is by following your normal attack routine.
Now normal attack bonusses and normal damage to me says that you would add the bonusses you would apply to your attacks depending on their position in your attack order. Normally, Dragon/Janni applies to your first attack. Hence, on a pummeling attack they'd only apply to your first attack roll and damage roll.
In this case, an attack can be one attack (resolving the damage) and simultaneously be multiple attacks (mechanical determining the size of said damage).
I doubt you'll convince me, but I am willing to keep an open mind; How do you interpret the fact that the feat states you must apply normal attack bonusses and normal damage?
Undone, play the feat whichever way you like.
Feel free to ignore the fact that the feat specifies that each of your itteratives are handled as normal.
Yes, the general rule is that if you make one 'attack' this is also your first attack. However, specific rules trump general rules. And in this case the feat specifies that despite it being one attack the way this attack is resolved is by following your normal attack routine.
Now normal attack bonusses and normal damage to me says that you would add the bonusses you would apply to your attacks depending on their position in your attack order. Normally, Dragon/Janni applies to your first attack. Hence, on a pummeling attack they'd only apply to your first attack roll and damage roll.
In this case, an attack can be one attack (resolving the damage) and simultaneously be multiple attacks (mechanical determining the size of said damage).
I doubt you'll convince me, but I am willing to keep an open mind; How do you interpret the fact that the feat states you must apply normal attack bonusses and normal damage?
Rambear, Is it not normal to add the extra damage dragon style damage to your first attack? And so couldn't it be seen as "normal" to add the bonus damage to all the weapon damage rolls you do for your first attack? Not that I agree necessarily with this view, I feel it's not as clear as you're trying to make it seem.
Rambear, Is it not normal to add the extra damage dragon style damage to your first attack? And so couldn't it be seen as "normal" to add the bonus damage to all the weapon damage rolls you do for your first attack? Not that I agree necessarily with this view, I feel it's not as clear as you're trying to make it seem.
Hence why I have argued there is ambiguity in the wording of the feat and it is in need of an errata.
I disagree with the way in which Undone argues that the feat works like a reversed Manyshot, while in my opinion it works like a melee clustered shot + a crit component, fluffed as one attack.
Ironically, to pummel, according to Collins dictionary is "to strike repeatedly with or as if with the fists". Pummeling in that case would fluff better with fast repeating blows to the same spot, also solving the whole argument whether you can apply bonusses to one/first attacks to all your attacks.
The one devastating blow aspect of the feat is what creates the disagreement between me and Undone. And while I agree to an extent that there can be debate on the wording of the feat, it is also not as clear as Undone makes it sound.
Which brings me to the main point:
I argue that normal means: Revert back to normal rules on handling an attack routine.
Undone ignores the wording of normal, or takes it to mean apply bonusses normal to first/one attack.
The difference, in my opinion, is that my interpretation makes the feat work very well, but means it does not have far reaching implications for several other feats. The interpretation Undone uses has more far reaching applications which makes some feats far more powerful.
And, again in my opinion, that means that my interpretation which refers back to a normal situation which is far more common (specific leading to general) and dampens the power of an already powerful feat is far better at passing the question: Is this explanation reasonable.
Regardless, I am willing to let this issue stand as something that should be clarified by a FAQ or errata. I do not think, however, that Undone's interpretation, which he makes out to be completely self-evident, should go unchallenged as the final word on this feat.
We really could use a FAQ on whether or not the SF can count his levels as monk levels for the purposes of flurry. Both the RAW And the RAI are questionable. Although not getting to count your levels as monk levels could explain why the SF trades away so little for so much.
"While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks"The only reference to damage rollS is done before referencing the first attack being 2x str.
I think this is far-fetched to say the least. The fact that there is a comma between two parts of a sentence do not mean that they are not related. The fact that it refers to damage Rolls in the first part and attacks in the second part is because NORMAL RULES (surprise, we are once again back to normal) suppose that your first damage roll is linked to your first attack, and subsequent damage rolls are related to subsequent attacks. The second part of your reference only refers to the relation between dragon ferocity and dragon style, and has no direct bearing on the pummeling style feat.
This is because the pummeling style feat specifies you using normal bonusses.
As for your remark about DR (and an errata that isn't out yet):
The feat specifies you making the attack rolls, then making damage rolls adding them to damage previously dealt. Then you'd make the conformation roll (if required).
In my opinion the normal order is:
attack roll - damage - crit confirmation and damage (if applicable) - apply damage to monster (deducting damage according to DR). Rinse and repeat for all the attacks yyou can make in a given round.
For pummeling style the order is as follows:
Make all attacks at normal bonus (for respective itteratives/flurry) - Roll normal damage for each hit, totalling them up - check for critical threat and confirm and increase damage (if applicable) - apply damage to monster (deducting damage according to DR)
Again, this is a normal way of resolving damage, except that the damage gets dealt after all results are totalled-up.
The damage is determined as a single attack for the purpose of DR and (until errata'ed) crit. However, the size of the damage is determined normally, and normal in any other part of the game means according to your standard, full or flurry of blows attack routine, whichever is applicable.
Actually my primary argument against your math is you prebuff or use multiple buffs. You should really only do the math with 1 buff running and do the math with various buffs since you will not always have divine power.
Well my assumption for general Warpriest operation was: feats - passive, favor - round1, sacred weapon - round2 if surprised; or in a typical "you have time for 1" pre-buffing situation, blessing & favor - round "-1". Beyond that, nickle-and-dime stuff like Weapon of Awe isn't really worth it anyhow. As far as I'll use generalizations, the way I see it stack up against a full-BAB class is that, as with the numbers I put up before, swift favor essentially equals out to having full BAB, while fighter feats/ sacred weapon/ blessings equates to other martial class features. If nothing but simple potency with a two-hander was the issue, I'd be inclined to go Warpriest rather than things like Ranger or Slayer or Samurai or Fighter.
Really, my big problem with a simple two-hander Warpriest is that it doesn't leverage all those level=BAB bonus feats to do good/fun/crazy/all-of-the-above things.
A while ago I decided to see how far I could push bonus feat exploitation on a 'sword-saint samurai' style Warpriest of Shizuru, and I ended up with a character in an o-yoroi who weaves between two-handed katana and two-weapon katana/fist... while using full Crane Style by 9. Not the most grounded character, but with up to 6 attacks per round by 9, fullplate-and-shield levels of defense, and a 'charge' that involves strolling up and slapping someone with the Repose stagger and then feeding their one attack back to them with Crane, it's not without it's charm.
For pummeling style the order is as follows:
Make all attacks at normal bonus (for respective itteratives/flurry) - Roll normal damage for each hit, totalling them up - check for critical threat and confirm and increase damage (if applicable) - apply damage to monster (deducting damage according to DR)
Again, this is a normal way of resolving damage, except that the damage gets dealt after all results are totalled-up.
The damage is determined as a single attack for the purpose of...
So Ram, say a Warpriest (Sacred Fist)/Monk (MoMS) has janni style/rush, dragon style/ferocity, Pummeling Style/Rush and Horn of the Criosphinx, you'd be all right with them dealing:
2.5x Str damage on all attacks (Interaction between Criosphinx and dragon ferocity, ignoring the 1.5x str damage from dragon style)
2x unarmed strike damage on all attacks (Janni Rush wording,nothing specifies that it is only the 1st attack that benefits)
on a full attack that applies the combined damage vs DR (thanks to Pummeling Style/Pummeling Charge)?
Just checking to see if I have understood right.
prototype00
No, in fact that is Undone's position.
I personally think you just make a regular normal attack routine; applying dragon ferocity and Horn only to the damage which belongs to your first itterative.
Dragon Style (ie 1.5x Strength) would be added to the damage of subsequent attack rolls, as normal, the only difference being that you total the damage before you determine a crit and then applmy the damage to a monster (mimicking clustered shot).
Janni Style is difficult. You make an unarmed strike as part of your charge, implying a singular attack. The fact that it does not specify your first attack (though it is implied because a charge action normally means a single attack) you could argue that it gets applied to all attack rolls.
Main question is, provided you have pounce, Janni Rush, martial versatility and FCT, would Janni Rush affect all your attacks on a charge, or just one? I reckon just one, though am unsure. If you would apply to all in this scenario, you would do the same for Janni +pummeling combo, if not, I would stick with only multiplying damage dice once.
Basically, stick with normal rules for full-attack/flurry for pummeling style and normal rules for pounce for pummeling Charge, and add the pseudo Clustered Shot effect
Dragon Style says this:
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
And thus only applies to the first iterative.
Dragon Ferocity says this:
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
And thus applies to all unarmed attacks.
Horn of the Criosphinx says this:
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.
Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.
Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
And doesn't specify that it only applies to the first attack. Where would you get that idea? If a monk got pounce from some other source (say, wildshape), he would get this benefit on all his unarmed strikes, would he not? Even sans pummeling style and just normal iteratives?
prototype00
Dragon Style says this:
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
And thus only applies to the first iterative.
Dragon Ferocity says this:
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
And thus applies to all unarmed attacks.
Horn of the Criosphinx says this:
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +6 or monk level 6th.
Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.
Normal: A character wielding a two-handed weapon adds 1-1/2 times her Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.
And doesn't specify that it only applies to the first attack. Where would you get that idea? If a monk got pounce from some other source (say, wildshape), he would get this benefit on all his unarmed strikes, would he not? Even sans pummeling style and just normal iteratives?
prototype00
The problem is that there's been clarifying errata done on Dragon Ferocity that looks like it nerfs the Ferocity + Horn combo:
While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks.
Since Horn already ups to twice damage, and Ferocity doesn't allow for more than 2x damage, it seems like they look at each other funny and only do 2x damage now.
---
There's also this little problem:
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
If you read through the entire text of the Sacred Fist, it never ONCE says that the SF actually counts as a Monk for the purposes of any Feats except Style Feats.
It DOES say:
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name.
This ability replaces sacred weapon.
...
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a sacred fist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike.
This ability replaces focus weapon.
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Bonus Style Feat
At 6th level, the sacred fist gains a style feat as a bonus feat. The sacred fist must meet the style feat's prerequisites. He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for the purposes of meeting the feat's prerequisites. At 12th and 18th levels, a sacred fist gains either another style feat or a feat that requires a style feat as a prerequisite.
This ability replaces the bonus feats gained at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.
Ki Pool (Su)
At 7th level, the sacred fist gains a ki pool. This functions as the monk class feature, using the sacred fist's level – 3 as his monk level when determining the number of points in his pool and bonuses granted to his unarmed strike. Additionally, the sacred fist can as a swift action spend 1 point from his ki pool to grant himself a +1 insight bonus to his AC for 1 minute. (This is in addition the normal ki ability to gain a dodge bonus to AC.) This insight bonus increases by 1 for every 3 levels above 7th (to a maximum of +5 at 19th level).
This ability replaces sacred armor.
But it lacks THIS little clause that the Brawler has:
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.
Because of that, the entire idea that Horn (or a number of other feats) works with an Unarmed Sacred Fist is suspect in many peoples' minds, because RAW the SF gets a lot of abilities like a Monk, but never actually COUNTS as a Monk.
There's also this little problem:
Horn of the Criosphinx wrote:
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
If you read through the entire text of the Sacred Fist, it never ONCE says that the SF actually counts as a Monk for the purposes of any Feats except Style Feats.
Thing is though is that the Sacred Fist often takes a level of MONK for early pummeling charge. Thus it makes them a monk :D
Thing is though is that the Sacred Fist often takes a level of MONK for early pummeling charge. Thus it makes them a monk :DThere's also this little problem:
Horn of the Criosphinx wrote:
Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.
If you read through the entire text of the Sacred Fist, it never ONCE says that the SF actually counts as a Monk for the purposes of any Feats except Style Feats.
Ah, but that's different - That's a Sacred Fist/Monk multiclass.
The two are so often combined that people forget that SF DOESN'T actually count as a Monk naturally, and try to build Sacred Fist builds with Monk-only tricks when they don't actually work.
Though I guess, yeah, that is beating around the bush a little.
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Would everyone mind putting the "________ can/can't do this" on hold until we get the actual corrected ACG, however many years that may take?
I have a strong feeling the Sacred Fist is going to be uber-nerfed anyway, not to mention various Feats mentioned here that a lot of people are arguing about, an honestly, I am hoping to see some ___+___+___+____+____+____+etc Warpriests that are cool.
I think we agree on Dragon Style/Ferocity.
To me, I'd let the first itterative benefit from x2 and the later ones from x1.5 strength. Roll damage as normal and add it all up before rolling crit and applying DR.
Horn I wonder about. I am unsure of how to interpret the RAGELANCEPOUNCE FAQ. You only apply the lance crit multiplier once. But not sure if that also applies to the +2 to hit. If the hit bonus of a charge works on all attacks in your pounce, the same could be said for Horn of the Crio.
I still maintain it's a normal full-attack /flurry, with a clustered shot (dr), crit and pounce component without additional 'first attack hence let's apply feats to all attacks' shennenigans.
trying to decide if guided hand is worth it for ranged warpriest.
I'm not entirely sure Guided Hand is really worth it with a Longbow.
Making the Warpriest as SAD as possible is nice, yes, and that includes making Wis-to-hit, but I'm not sure about Longbow.
A Double-Barreled Pistol or a Crossbow on the other hand...
A one-level dip into Gunslinger, especially Pistolero, works extremely well - Grit being based upon Wisdom means you're going to have a whole lot of it.
HOLY GUN
Blessings Air, Law/Chaos/Good
Race Hmn Point-Blank Shot
CL1 Pist1 Precise Shot, Gunsmithing
CL2 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Pistol)
CL3 Wrp2 Rapid Reload (Pistol)
CL4 Wrp3 (Filler Combat Feat) >>> Retrain to Channel Smite at lv4
CL5 Wrp4 Guided Hand
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Master
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quicken Blessing (Law/Chaos/Good)
CL12 Wrp11
A Double-Barrel Pistol will effectively get you as many shots off as if you were a two-Weapon fighter, and if you're within 30ft, you'll be getting a +2 (+1 from WF, +1 from PBS), offsetting the double-tap, which is granting a
Calculating AC with SF and dip into MoMS.
Monk says you can add Wis mod to AC and doesnt give it a type. SF says you add Wis mod to AC and it is a Deflection bonous. Herolab seems to be adding the Wis Mod twice once from Monk and once from SF cause the Monk bonous is untyped. Is this correct?
No, it isn't correct. The Wisdom-to-AC of both classes is untyped, and as per the FAQ, untyped bonuses that are equal to an ability bonus don't stack. The additional scaling bonuses (untyped for the monk, deflection for the warpriest) do stack though.
trying to decide if guided hand is worth it for ranged warpriest.I'm not entirely sure Guided Hand is really worth it with a Longbow.
Making the Warpriest as SAD as possible is nice, yes, and that includes making Wis-to-hit, but I'm not sure about Longbow.
A Double-Barreled Pistol or a Crossbow on the other hand...
A one-level dip into Gunslinger, especially Pistolero, works extremely well - Grit being based upon Wisdom means you're going to have a whole lot of it.
HOLY GUN
Blessings Air, Law/Chaos/Good
Race Hmn Point-Blank Shot
CL1 Pist1 Precise Shot, Gunsmithing
CL2 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Pistol)
CL3 Wrp2 Rapid Reload (Pistol)
CL4 Wrp3 (Filler Combat Feat) >>> Retrain to Channel Smite at lv4
CL5 Wrp4 Guided Hand
CL6 Wrp5
CL7 Wrp6 Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, Point-Blank Master
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quicken Blessing (Law/Chaos/Good)
CL12 Wrp11A Double-Barrel Pistol will effectively get you as many shots off as if you were a two-Weapon fighter, and if you're within 30ft, you'll be getting a +2 (+1 from WF, +1 from PBS), offsetting the double-tap, which is granting a
i hate guns.
it's simple as that.but i've already scrapped the idea, manyshot requires dex 17, so no reason to use guided hand since i can't avoid high dex
I mean, Hand Crossbows are a thing, and there's a Gunslinger Archetype based around Crossbows.
I can't see crossbows as being viable till the levels I want.
You would need
Rapid shot
Deadly aim
Pbs
Spec
Precise
Rapid reload
Channel smite
Guided handThat's a ton of feats to pretty much do less damage than a bow.
It's literally 1 more feat - Rapid Reload - than what you proposed for the Longbow.
You STILL need to take all those feats for your Longbow. Like, what - do you think that a Longbow magically gives you Point-Blank Shot + Precise Shot?
And guess what - your Longbow's not gonna be doing any more damage than the Crossbow after Warpriest lv5, because Sacred Weapon will up the damage.
And with a Crossbow, with a Bolt Ace level dip, you can at least gain some tricks with the Crossbow AND get access to a class feature that plays off your Wisdom, AND it won't matter if you've got a 6-8 Str score because your weapon of Choice doesn't care because its damage isn't based on Str or Dex at all.
Guided Hand basically makes you MAD as hell until you get to lv5, because you need Str to pull our Bow (unless you have Str10 and aren't dealing +Str damage, 'cause you've got a +0 Composite Longbow or a normal Longbow, in which case again I ask, why the feck aren't you using a Crossbow from the get-go), you need Dex to aim your bow and fire, and you need Wis to cast your spells.
It's not nearly as bad when you can dump Str down to the bare minimum, and instead put your points mostly into Wis and some into Dex, since when you hit lv5 you can get Channel Smite and retrain an earlier Combat Feat to be Guided Hand, so that your Dex is still doing something in that it's applying to your AC while your Wis is both upping your spells while also acting as your To-Hit for your weapon that does static damage AND you're getting additional special abilities that are fueled by points determined by your Wis.
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tl;dr - you asked if Guided Hand was worth it, and the answer is "no, not for a bow".
Is it worth it for a Gun or Crossbow, especially if you take a single-level dip into a class which rewards you for having high Wis? The answer to that is "yes... yes it is; very much so - the higher the Wis in that build, the better".
If you don't like guns or crossbows for whatever reason, then just don't use Guided Hand and stick to the traditional Archer Warpriest build.
Divine Protection is worth if if you are playing a Champion of the Faith. You'll be needing CHA for Smites anyway, so you might as well apply it to saves too.
Otherwise, it's a poor choice, yes.
That being said, Champion of the Faith is best/only good if you're wielding a Greatsword/Nodachi or Large Bastardsword/Katana, since the high Damage Dice of those weapons basically makes the native Sacred Weapon all but useless.
The loss of your ability to apply free Enhancement Bonuses or Abilities sucks, BUT you gain the ability to add Holy to a weapon for free, and by its written wording looks like it can add Holy to any weapon regardless of its Enhancements, so it can effectively get a weapon up to a total +12 Enhancement that way.
If your idea is to build a Strength-based Two-Weapon Fighting Warpriest that's a not-Paladin, then high Charisma is a secondary Ability you'll want plenty of, anyway (can you say EXTRA DAMAGE?), so Divine Protection would be great.
LANCE DU POND - 2-Handed Champion of the Faith
Stats:
Human/Half-Elf/ Ancestral Arms Half Elf/Toothy Half-Orc: Str 17 (15+2) / Dex 10 / Con 13 / Int 10 / Wis 14 / Cha 14
Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc: Str 15 / Dex 10 / Con 15 (13+2) / Int 10 / Wis 14 / Cha 14
Scion of Humanity Aasimar: Str 15 / Dex 10 / Con 13 / Int 10 / Wis 15 (13+2) / Cha 17 (15+2)
Deity: Shizuru, Gorum, Chaldira
Deity's Favored Weapon: Katana (Shizuru) - Large weapon
Ancestral Arms: Elven Curve Blade
Alternate Weapon: Nodachi (naturally a Martial Weapon)
Variant Channeling: Battle (Heal)(Chaldira) / Battle (Harm) (Gorum) / Weapons (Gorum) / Luck (Chaldira)
Blessings: Good, Glory (Shizuru) / Chaos, Destruction (Gorum) / Good, Luck (Chaldira)
Race Improved Initiative (Hu) / Skill Focus - Intimidate (HE) / Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Elven Curve Blade AAHE / Endurance (SAHO) / Bite Attack (THO) / <Racial Heritage: Aasimar> (SoH)
Chmp1 Toughness, Weapon Focus - [two-handed weapon]
Chmp2
Chmp3 Power Attack (Hu, AAHE, SoH) / Antagonize (HE) / Diehard (SAHO) / Weapon Focus - Bite (THO)
Chmp4
Chmp5 Divine Protection
Chmp6 Improved Critical (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH) / Deathless Initiate (SAHO) / Hammer the Gap (THO), Weapon Specialization - [two-handed weapon]
Chmp7 Surge of Success (Hu) / Elven Battle Training (AAHE) / Intimidating Confidence (HE) / Ironhide (SAHO) / Extra Channel (THO) / Heavenly Radiance (SoH)
Chmp8
Chmp9 Hammer the Gap (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH) / Deathless Master (SAHO) / Improved Critical (THO), Greater Weapon Focus
Chmp10
Chmp11 Quicken Blessing
Chmp12 Critical Versatility, Critical Focus (Hu, AAHE, HE, SoH, THO) / Toughness, Improved Critical (SAHO)
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There are basically 6 paths available here, based on your Race. All make use of Critical Hits to auto-hit and deal extra damage (offsetting the fewer attacks and lower BAB compared to a typical Paladin), but how much of a focus and how it meshes depends on the Race.
Human is an entirely vanilla Critical-Fighter. It gets bonuses to succeed on Critical Hits and gets extra tricks based on them. It also gets Improved Initiative, to somewhat make up for the lack of Dex in the stats. Any of the other three half-humans can take this build, as well (sans Imp. Init.), but they each have their own tricks.
Half-Elf focuses on Intimidate. Skill Focus at lv1 adds to its already-freakish Intimidate check from having a high Charisma. Antagonize allows you to control the flow of battle, and Intimidating Confidence lets you make an Intimidate check whenever you score a Critical Hit. Shizuru is really the only choice of Deity here (Glory Blessing, people - GLORY). A vanilla Half-Orc can also take this build, but they're not nearly as good at it (+2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate for a Half-Orc isn't great compared to +3 from lv1-9, +6 thereafter that a Half-Elf).
Ancestral Arms Half-Elf: This is pretty much identical to the Human but for one main difference: Elven Battle Training gives you an additional Attack of Opportunity with an Elven Curveblade, which is as close to using Combat Reflexes (and stacks with, interestingly) as you'll ever get with a piddling 10 Dexterity. EBT is pretty much the only reason to take this over a straight Half-Elf wielding a Nodachi, aside from flavor reasons (if you're playing with rolled stats and going above lv12, though, totally take this and Combat Reflexes - it's actually pretty nasty).
Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc basically drops Improved Critical and Hammer the Gap until the very last level. The trade-off here is that you are a SPONGE, and basically don't die until you're dead. This build starts with Endurance as a Racial Bonus Feat by forgoing the Half-Orc's +2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate via Shaman's Apprentice, and then builds up from there with Diehard, Ironhide (hey, +1 Natural Armor isn't terrible), Deathless Initiate, and Deathless Master (why Ironhide is used at all).
Toothy Half-Orc borrows a trick from the Barbarian. While it's not Come And Get Me, Reverse Feint is part of a really nice little combo: You use Battle Variant Channel (Harm) to give penalties to your opponent on Damage and Crit-Hit rolls as a Standard Action (effectively granting you and your allies temporary DR/-); as a Move Action, you use Reverse Feint, giving them a bonus to hit, but letting you attack as an Immediate Action (that's separate from an AoO), at +2 to-hit. Extra Channel means you can do this more often. And by taking Toothy, it also gains an additional attack. This basically can only take Gorum as a god, but it wouldn't want anything else anyway, really.
Scion of Humanity Aasimar is the most magically-adept of the five. It gets +2 Wis and Charisma, making it a real nasty little piece of work for both Smiting and spellcasting. Scion gets the best defenses, and departs a bit from the base Human build by taking Heavenly Radiance in order to gain spell-like abilities (Searing Light is probably the best choice).
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Regardless of how you build this, your Dex is garbage, so you're better off wearing Heavy Armor to subsist with this.
i also don't understand what you mean "for free" since the original sacred weapon, for a good aligned warpriest would allow him to already add holy, for a longer duration, either way (alongside with other things)
I mean you don't have to pay s@#! for it as far as gp is concerned.
And lasting all of 2 rounds fewer isn't a huge loss, frankly, when you consider the heinous amounts of damage you'll be doing with Smite anyway, on top of being able to fervor-cast spells. At that point, Sacred Weapon is simply icing on the cake.
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Seriously, you almost have to try hard to make a Bad Warpriest... This is my build
Half-Elf (+2 STR)
16, 13, 14, 10, 14, 12 (bit spread out and not maximized, but thats me)
Traits:
Ancestral Weaponry (exotic prof: Falcata)
Magical Knack (up to +2 caster level for non-caster class levels)
1st level - Bloodrager
2nd - 11th Warpriest (only built out that far, PFS)
Feats:
1st - Extra Rage (total of 12 rounds), Exotic: Falcata
2nd - Focus: Falcata
3rd - Mad Magic (can now cast my spells while raging)
4th - Power Attack (I will be using the Falcata 2-Handed)
5th - Weapon Versatility (Falcata is/can now be piercing 1 handed weapon)
7th - Amateur Swashbuckler (Parry and Reposte, 2 panache, 1 at the start of the day)
7th - Extra Panache, now have a total of 4 panache and start the day with 3)
9th, 10th and 11th feats are still TBD.
So, obviously, raging, swift casting buffs AND parry / reposte at 7th level. Further, with the Falcata and Imp. Crit if you can get it, your crit and kill rate for regaining panache will be through the roof. at 4th level I am 19-20 X 3, power attacking and 2 handing thats 1D8+11 damage per hit. over 40 average on crits.
At 5th level you start swift buffing bull strength and go to +11 to hit and 1D8+14 per, min crit damage of 45, almost 60 on average. Once you get that imp. crit and go to 17-20...
O, wait, you can do that with fervor...
It's a little unclear if you even need mad magic to cast spells with fervor.
