jabberwoky |
For the moment, let us assume that the rules for Multiweapon Fighting allow the feat to be a prerequisite for the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
Assuming my DM is generous (or foolish) enough to let me play as a Kasatha Fighter (with a 25 point buy, because why not?), what would my full attack with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting be? Assuming MWF and ITWF are compatible, do I get only one extra attack with my off-hand from ITWF, or do all my off hands (all three) get an extra attack from ITWF?
For simplicity's sake, I'm assuming my weapons are not magical, I am not taking any archetypes, and my character's primary hand is the upper right hand.
Type: Humanoid (kasatha) (0 RP)
Size: Kasathas are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. (0 RP)
Base Speed: Kasathas have a base speed of 30 feet. (0 RP)
Languages: Kasathas speak Common and Kasatha. A kasatha with a high Intelligence score can choose from the following: Dwarven, Draconic, Gnoll, Orc, and Sphinx. (0 RP)
Defensive Training, Greater: Kasathas have a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. (4 RP)
Desert Runner: Kasathas have a +4 racial bonus on Constitution checks and Fortitude saves to avoid fatigue, exhaustion, and other ill effects from running, forced marches, starvation, thirst, and hot or cold environments. (2 RP)
Stalker: Perception and Stealth are class skills for kasathas. (1 RP)
Spinal Sword Proficiency: Kasathas treat kasatha spinal swords as martial weapons.
Jumper: Kasathas are always considered to have a running start when attempting Acrobatics checks to jump. (2 RP)
Desert Stride: Kasathas move through non-magical difficult terrain in desert environments at normal speed. (1 RP)
Multi-Armed: A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands. (4 arms; 8 RP)
DEX: 17
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
BAB: +6/+1
Level 1:Multiweapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Spine Sword)
Level 2:Quick Draw
Level 3:Iron Will
Level 4:Weapon Specialization (Spine Sword), +1 STR
Level 5:Double Slice
Level 6:Improved Two Weapon Fighting
So is my full attack: +9 (main hand) /+9 (upper left off-hand)/+9 (lower right off-hand) /+9 (lower left off-hand) /+4 (main hand) /+4 (ITWF extra attack)?
Or is my full attack: +9 (main hand) /+9 (upper left off-hand) /+9 (lower right off-hand) /+9 (lower left off-hand) /+4 (main hand) /+4 (ITWF upper left off-hand) /+4 (ITWF lower right off-hand) /+4 (ITWF lower left off-hand)?
My calculations may be off so feel free to correct me.
MurphysParadox |
By the words of the feats, you'd technically get an extra attack PER offhand attack. The feat doesn't limit itself and doesn't use limiting language; it basically modifies anything listed as an 'offhand weapon' by giving it a second additional attack (ignore the flavor text as it has no bearing on actual rules).
The feats weren't really written to work with each other like that though, so it would require a particularly foolish GM. Or you should be especially afraid, like when a teacher chucks and agrees to let everyone have open notes on the test, saying "it won't do you any good". That teacher wasn't very nice to us, heh.
wraithstrike |
You would get your two main BAB attacks, and the rest 3 off hand attacks. So you would get 5 attacks total. The game assumes you will use multiweapon fighting, not any of the TWF'ing feats. If you choose to ignore that then the rules done cover you and you must rely on your GM to adjust things. Yeah I am saying that some things are beyond the rules.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Races with more than 2 arms really start to blow the lid off of game balance for PCs for reasons like this.
My advice... mixing Multiweapon fighting with Improved Two Weapon Fighting should work... but should ONLY increase the number of iterative attacks for ONE off hand, not all of them.
Thus... a kasatha wielding 4 short swords gets 4 atatcks. With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, it would get 5 attacks, not 8.
Giving a PC that many attacks is bad for TWO reasons:
1) It allows the PC to do too much damage.
2) It makes the player's turn take too long.
A better solution, in my opinion, is to just not allow kasathas or 4-armed races as PC options, and use them ONLY as NPCs or monsters. They're built fine to do damage they need for their CR, and don't need to boost their attacks, so they should never be given feats like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Give them other feats entirely.
Loengrin |
You've got the wrong definition of the Multiweapon Fighting... Yours is the Bestiary 2 definition, in bestiary 3 it goes like this :
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks
with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
So no, with TWF you can't make more than one supplementary attack, you need Multiweapon Fighting to do that... Now if your DM allow you to take a Creature feat you take Multiweapon fighting and you can attack with all your hands...
Now for Improved TWF sorry but ITWF improve only TWF not Multi Weapon Attack... Which is a creature feat...
wraithstrike |
You've got the wrong definition of the Multiweapon Fighting... Yours is the Bestiary 2 definition, in bestiary 3 it goes like this :
Quote:This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks
with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.So no, with TWF you can't make more than one supplementary attack, you need Multiweapon Fighting to do that... Now if your DM allow you to take a Creature feat you take Multiweapon fighting and you can attack with all your hands...
Now for Improved TWF sorry but ITWF improve only TWF not Multi Weapon Attack... Which is a creature feat...
I assumed he knew the rule but was asking a hypothetical question, which is why I told him the rules did not cover that because he said.
" let us assume that the rules for Multiweapon Fighting allow the feat to be a prerequisite for the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat. "
However if he did not know then hopefully he knows now, and I hope he goes by the book instead of trying to stack multiweapon fighting with TWF feats since that is not supposed to happen.
Kazaan |
ITWF gives the same benefit to a Kathasa as it gives to any other creature; it grants you one additional off-hand attack. Otherwise, there would be no need at all for the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat. TWF reduces your main-hand penalty from -6 to -4 and your off-hand penalty from -10 to -4. That's it. It doesn't "grant" you any off-hand attacks, those you could do even without the feat. Multiweapon Fighting does the exact same thing, except it affects your main-hand and all your off-hands instead of just one. It is quite literally a redundant feat specifically for use by creatures with more than one off-hand attack. But ITWF is the same regardless of who uses it. It doesn't say you get an extra attack with all your off-hand weapons; it says you get an extra attack with your off-hand weapon. Singular. Now, an Improved/Greater Multiweapon Fighting feat chain would be an entirely different story.
Additionally, the assumption that Multiweapon Fighting serves as a prereq for ITWF is a good assumption to make because it is correct. MWF is used "in place of TWF" for appropriate creatures. That doesn't just mean for function but also in serving as prereqs. Otherwise, multi-armed creatures would also be deprived of the following feats:
Break Guard
Net and Trident
Thunder and Fang
Pinpoint Poisoner
Shield Slam
Bashing Finish
Dorn Dergar Master
Double Slice
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Feint
Two-Weapon Rend
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
... as these feats also require TWF, directly or indirectly, as a prereq.
HectorVivis |
That's the freaky problem with MWF... Either you can take iTWF and a bundle of cool feats, or you can't and then bye bye TWFeint, Rend and the like, which would be sad.
I think a definitive FAQ would be cool, even if 4-armed characters are a corner case.
Even if the FAQ would say: You can take all TWF feats with MWF except iTWF and gTWF.
Drackstin |
I was directed to this post from someone when i asked about Multiweapon fighting and i was wondering if some things could be cleared up, since RAW is vague on the topic.
If i have a character with 3 arms or more,and i take Multiweapon fighting it would make my attacks a -4/-4/-4, if i use a light off handed weapon is this then reduced to -2/-2/-2/-2? of is -4 the lowest it can get to?
Also Multiweapon fighting says it replaces TWF for characters with more then 2 hands, dose this allow ITWF or would i need to take TWF to qualify for it?
these questions are centered around a build i was trying out with a Half-elf synthesis summoner.
Ovinomancer |
I actually created a improved multiweapon fighting and a greater multiweapon fighting. They still have the same prerequisites for improved two weapon fighting and greater two weapon fighting. I also made the other corresponding feats. But only our most experienced players would be allowed to play as a kasatha and use them and no more than one kasatha per campaign. That way the campaign would not get out of hand with everyone playing in a kasatha. The only real restriction I put on playing a kasatha and having all these feats is they could not play a fighter. But I did have a few of them get creative. One played a Ranger with two bows. One decided to do wheel to Great weapons. One carried a longsword a short sword and two Shields. It all just depends on the DM. I'm not here to be a rule lawyer. That takes the fun out of it. But a fighter kasatha able to get all those feats would be way to o.p.
Scott Wilhelm |
Races with more than 2 arms really start to blow the lid off of game balance for PCs for reasons like this.
My advice... mixing Multiweapon fighting with Improved Two Weapon Fighting should work... but should ONLY increase the number of iterative attacks for ONE off hand, not all of them.
Thus... a kasatha wielding 4 short swords gets 4 atatcks. With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, it would get 5 attacks, not 8.
Giving a PC that many attacks is bad for TWO reasons:
1) It allows the PC to do too much damage.
2) It makes the player's turn take too long.A better solution, in my opinion, is to just not allow kasathas or 4-armed races as PC options, and use them ONLY as NPCs or monsters. They're built fine to do damage they need for their CR, and don't need to boost their attacks, so they should never be given feats like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Give them other feats entirely.
Is there an official ruling, or is this an official ruling that a Kasatha gets 3 off-hand attacks when Full Attacking with 4 weapons?
It appears that technically there is no actual rule that states that multi-armed humanoids like Kasatha get 3 off-hand weapon attacks, but it seems clear that the intent of the rules, echoed by you, is that they do get all 4 attacks with 4 weapons.
If there is no official ruling, or if this is not an official ruling, would you oblige us with one?
MrCharisma |
I don't know if there's a rule that says they get more attacks, but MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING exists, and certainly wouldn't work if they didn't. This feat is from the bestiary though, so probably not meant for PCs (although Kasatha aren't really meant for PCs anyway, so meh).
zza ni |
James Jacobs wrote:Races with more than 2 arms really start to blow the lid off of game balance for PCs for reasons like this.
My advice... mixing Multiweapon fighting with Improved Two Weapon Fighting should work... but should ONLY increase the number of iterative attacks for ONE off hand, not all of them.
Thus... a kasatha wielding 4 short swords gets 4 atatcks. With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, it would get 5 attacks, not 8.
Giving a PC that many attacks is bad for TWO reasons:
1) It allows the PC to do too much damage.
2) It makes the player's turn take too long.A better solution, in my opinion, is to just not allow kasathas or 4-armed races as PC options, and use them ONLY as NPCs or monsters. They're built fine to do damage they need for their CR, and don't need to boost their attacks, so they should never be given feats like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Give them other feats entirely.
Is there an official ruling, or is this an official ruling that a Kasatha gets 3 off-hand attacks when Full Attacking with 4 weapons?
It appears that technically there is no actual rule that states that multi-armed humanoids like Kasatha get 3 off-hand weapon attacks, but it seems clear that the intent of the rules, echoed by you, is that they do get all 4 attacks with 4 weapons.
If there is no official ruling, or if this is not an official ruling, would you oblige us with one?
it's actually in the rules that every creature has only one main hand. the kasatha and every other creature with more then 2 hands are built on this -see multi weapon fighting linked above:
"Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook."multi weapon replace two weapon fighting. the rest of the chain (improved and greater 2-weapon fighting) only give you one extra off hand attack (from any one of the off hands you decide to use, but not all at once).
i do believe that if any creature would get to consider all his hands as main hands (no off hand) it would be mentioned, i recall seeing this before, but can't remember if it's here or in 3.5 . (one of them 6 armed demon? Tanari maybe?)
Talonhawke |
James Jacobs wrote:Races with more than 2 arms really start to blow the lid off of game balance for PCs for reasons like this.
My advice... mixing Multiweapon fighting with Improved Two Weapon Fighting should work... but should ONLY increase the number of iterative attacks for ONE off hand, not all of them.
Thus... a kasatha wielding 4 short swords gets 4 atatcks. With Improved Two Weapon Fighting, it would get 5 attacks, not 8.
Giving a PC that many attacks is bad for TWO reasons:
1) It allows the PC to do too much damage.
2) It makes the player's turn take too long.A better solution, in my opinion, is to just not allow kasathas or 4-armed races as PC options, and use them ONLY as NPCs or monsters. They're built fine to do damage they need for their CR, and don't need to boost their attacks, so they should never be given feats like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Give them other feats entirely.
Is there an official ruling, or is this an official ruling that a Kasatha gets 3 off-hand attacks when Full Attacking with 4 weapons?
It appears that technically there is no actual rule that states that multi-armed humanoids like Kasatha get 3 off-hand weapon attacks, but it seems clear that the intent of the rules, echoed by you, is that they do get all 4 attacks with 4 weapons.
If there is no official ruling, or if this is not an official ruling, would you oblige us with one?
It's not official since James isn't technically the rules guy, and getting on is unlikely for several reasons....
1. PF1E is over and we are unlikely to see much if any continued support outside of PFS.
2. This has been a known question and issue for a while with several threads that have debated the issue in circles.
3. As James points out the race goes against the norms for the game. Meaning that everything the base rules and the "hands of effort" unwritten rules are about wouldn't apply and would open up whole new cans of worms.