Conductive bow and Weird Words


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

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I was GMing last night and had a player using a conductive bow to deliver weird words to the enemies. His interpretation was that if he hit with the arrow, all of the weird words hit. This seemed a little too good to be true to me. Looking at it today the only thing I can find that would support this not working is this:

conductive says it works on an "ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack" while wierd words says "These are ranged touch attacks"

so conductive works on one touch attack where weird words is considered multiple attacks.

What does the community think? Can all weird words be delivered through one arrow from a conductive bow?

Sczarni

That's an excellent question (and one that I personally don't have an answer to).

I know that Weird Words has been hotly debated over in the Rules Questions forum. I'll flag your post to be moved over there, since that group can probably answer your question more thoroughly than you'll get here.

Plus, another discussion on the matter may help that confusing ability earn a spot in the FAQ.

Sovereign Court

Quoting for everyone else's convenience. Don't have an opinion yet.

Conductive Weapon, PRD wrote:
Conductive: A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, he may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal greatsword damage and damage from one use of her lay on hands. This weapon property can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).
Weird Words, PRD wrote:
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.

Sovereign Court

Based on the reading here:

Conductive wrote:
When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, who takes the effects of the weapon attack and the special ability.

I'm pretty sure what happens is this:

1. Bard takes full round attack action.
2. First arrow connections.
3. Per conductive, bard starts weird words by spending two uses of performance.
4. [weird combo stuff here]
5. Second arrow connects. Conductive cannot be used again this round.

Given this,

Conductive wrote:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target
Weird Words wrote:
a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks.

I don't think it works at all because conductive expects to be used with a SP/SU ability that uses a single melee/ranged touch attack.

EDIT: The interpretation can go in a lot of ways. This player should expect some very significant table variation for this combination; they should probably ask the GM about the ability prior to starting the game so the GM isn't forced to make a surprise rule call in the middle of a combat.

EDIT 2: I think the most likely alternative interpretation is that only the first word is "conducted" via the arrow, all other words must use separate ranged touch attacks.


Personally, as someone building up a PC for a similar sort of schtick, I view it as this:

The weapon attack only has one of the wierd words attached to it. If the weapon hits, that word hits... and all the other words follow, each requiring their own seperate attack roll, and all having to target the same person.

So delivering it via the weapon really isn't that advantageous (it only affects one of the words (the rest resolve normally), you have to hit normal AC with that one (instead of touch), and all the other words go towards the same target (instead of being able to split them up). The upside being one of action economy as you get to do both instead of just one).

I like to think of it as a tracer round =)


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You're gonna get *one* weird word along with your arrow, and the other weird words are lost.

Same principle as when you use a conductive bow to shoot an alchemist bomb - the target takes full damage, and there is no splash.

Liberty's Edge

As I see it he can channel only 1 use of weird word with the conductive weapon at the cost two rounds of performance, all other uses are lost.

That is based on the simple fact that each attack with weird words require a separate attack roll, so if you make 10 attacks with weird words you must make 10 attacks rolls, wile the conductive weapon make only one.

AFAIK there is no definitive ruling about that but it recall that there was a hot debate about the bard ability to target as single target with more than 1 weird word with each use of the ability. Based on what I have read the position were evenly split between "each weird word attack should target a different creature" and "all the attacks can target the same creature".

Note that the channelled ability target only the target of the weapon attack, even if it is a area effect.

Liberty's Edge

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Keep in mind that conductive cannot confer abilities to its ammo.

Why you ask?

Because this ability does not have superscript 3.

Which on the chart of ranged weapon special abilities, is the notation that says the ability can be conferred to ammo.

The only ability that currently has an exception is seeking.

Sovereign Court

Andrew Christian wrote:

Keep in mind that conductive cannot confer abilities to its ammo.

Why you ask?

Because this ability does not have superscript 3.

Which on the chart of ranged weapon special abilities, is the notation that says the ability can be conferred to ammo.

The only ability that currently has an exception is seeking.

Ah, very good catch. So you have to buy conductive arrows, basically?

Liberty's Edge

Yup, which makes it prohibitively expensive, unless you can buy only a few. Make sure they are durable!


Wow, that's huge Andrew... thanks for pointing it out!

Hmmm

Sovereign Court

Yeah, though, the question still remains for a conductive arrow. Although, I wonder if the combo will be abandoned entirely because of cost.

Liberty's Edge

My Opinion:

You get one word. Because each word requires a separate attack roll, you actually are nerfing yourself by using two charges (that at 10th level could be 20 ranged touch attacks for 1d8+cha per successful attack over two rounds) to do 1d8+Cha extra on the attack.

You can't avoid the extra attack rolls just because you are using Conductive to channel the supernatural ability.

Grand Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:
Yup, which makes it prohibitively expensive, unless you can buy only a few. Make sure they are durable!

Unless they changed Durable, the arrow would become non-magical, but remain masterwork, on a hit, so no great benefit, there.

Weird Words, right now, is sort of in limbo. The PDT posted an in-progress revision of the ability, to make it clear that each word is supposed to target a different creature, but it appears to have gone into a holding pattern for the final update since Sean left.

The PDT proposed version would also change the cost, to one round of performance per Word used.

The whole thing was a nerf to a sub-par ability, which cost too many die rolls to use anyhow.

Remember that, currently, even if used with a conductive what-have-you, the target would still get a Fort save for half damage.

Each Word, as currently written, has a to hit roll, a damage roll, and the target gets a Fort save for half damage. Potentially 30 die rolls. All the conductive thing would do would be substitute a normal ranged attack for a ranged touch attack...

Grand Lodge

I am not a rules guru by any means but looking at the class ability it looks like this ability is channeled through the performance. I would not allow it to be channeled through the weapon, as this is a performance feat if the weapon were a performance weapon I could allow it if he had the proper skills (dance, acting, and maybe oratory) but otherwise this is not channeled by weapon at all. Just my take on it.

Sovereign Court

Hmmm, I don't see where there's a requirement for Conductive where it only works for performance abilities when its on a "performance weapon." Can you show me that text?

All I find about performance weapons is the following:

UE, prd wrote:
Performance: When wielding this weapon, if an attack or combat maneuver made with this weapon prompts a performance combat check, you gain a +2 bonus on that check.

Short of that, it seems that weird words is compatible with Conductive with the exception of the fact that weird words does multiple ranged touch attacks.

Fine for your homebrew, of course. But this is for PFS.

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