Hey All! Taking a Sacred Fist to a PFS Table tonight!


Advice

Silver Crusade

So I'm taking this guy to PFS tonight at Atomic Empire:

Spoiler:

*************************************************************************** *****
Terra-Cotta Sacred Fist, of Many Styles
Kazumetsa:
Human, Medium, Male, Height 6', 210lbs, Deity: Desna, Alignment: Chaotic Good, Age: 31

Ability Scores:
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 7

Defenses:
Hitpoints: 10
AC 17
Touch 17
Flat 13
CMD 18
Flat CMD 14
Fort 3
Ref 4
Will 5

Offenses:
Unarmed - +4 Attack or +3/+3 Flurry, 1d6+1 damage, 20x2, B
CMB with Trip/Disarm/Sunder - +4

Abilities:
Pummeling Style
Weapon Finesse
Flurry of Blows
Aura(Chaotic Good)
Orisons
Improved Unarmed Strike
AC Bonus(su)

Skills:
Acrobatics: 8
History: 5
Religion: 5
Perception: 7
Sense Motive: 7
Stealth: 8

Traits:
Fate's Favored - Luck Bonuses increase by +1
Quan Martial Artist - +1 damage with Unarmed Strikes
*************************************************************************** *************

It will be for the campaign The Mummy's Mask: The Half-Dead City 1 of 3. It'll be my second ever PFS session! Likely his personality will be rather goofy, headstrong, suspicious of others, free-spirited, rather raunchy and somewhat disrespectful, forgetful, and involve a lot of pelvic thrusting in combat.

He will run with his first two levels being Sacred Fist. At level 3 and 4 he will take two levels of Qinggong/Terra-Cotta/Master of Many Styles Monk, then return to pure Warpriest levels afterwards.

His prepared Spells will be:
Level 0 - Resistance
Level 0 - Detect Magic
Level 0 - Detect Poison
Level 1 - Divine Favor
Level 1 - Divine Favor

Inventory:
Potion of Cure Light Wounds x2
Potion of Mage Armor x10(using 504 Gold from a previous Brawler toon)

I'll update(without spoilers) how he played out sometime tomorrow morning!


Are you completely set on a two level dip into monk? What are you chasing for your build that needs both levels of monk? Are those abilities worth losing a level or two of progression in your main class?

Qinggong doesn't matter if you're not going to level 4 monk. Terra cotta trades out evasion for trap intuition that lets you spot traps, but not disarm them. I'd stick with a single level dip of monk master of many styles and progress sacred fist sooner.

Guessing you're going for an agile amulet asap, but you'll be hurting for damage until then.

Dark Archive

MoMS is for delicious prereq-free style feats and a handful of neat class bonuses. Sacred Fists will be a little sad to push their abilities back, but what you get is worth it.


Chaotic good alignment isn't going to work with a monk dip unless it's Martial Artist. And you can't worship Desna if you're Lawful.

Silver Crusade

redward wrote:
Chaotic good alignment isn't going to work with a monk dip unless it's Martial Artist. And you can't worship Desna if you're Lawful.

Uhoh. I'm glad you pointed this out.

Straight from the ACG:
Blessings
A warpriest can select any two blessings granted by his
deity. Deities grant blessings of the same name as the
domains they grant. Unless otherwise noted, using a
blessing is a standard action. A warpriest without a deity
can select any two blessings (subject to GM approval). If a
blessing’s power duplicates a spell effect, the warpriest’s
caster level for that power is equal to his warpriest level.
Blessings that affect weapons and armor benefit anyone
who wields or wears those items, not just the warpriest.

This may give me a little bit of wiggle room. I can go Lawful Neutral I suppose. I'll just be a big believer in Freedom and Liberty ;)

Scarab Sages

PFS warpriests must select a deity, like clerics. What specific blessings are you trying to take?


I'm not an expert on PFS, but If you want some specific Blessings, you could pick one of the others legal deities. :)

Kurgess is an option:for someone that punches people it's thematically fitting, and half of his domains are the same as Desna's.
And there are all of the gajillion Empyreal lords, if you don't like Kurgess.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
PFS warpriests must select a deity, like clerics. What specific blessings are you trying to take?

I'd really like to have Liberation(minor) and Freedom's Call(major).

Scarab Sages

There are several Empyreal Lords that are PFS legal, have the Liberation domain, and have monk-compatible alignments. Based on your character outlook, Arshea seems to fit.

Scarab Sages

Also, the gods of ancient osirion are PFS legal if you have a copy of AP 80, and Khepri is also NG and has access to Liberation.

Silver Crusade

I think I've narrowed it down to Arshea, Kurgess, Falayna, Khepri, Lorris, and Shei.

Leaning more towards Khepri as he really fits my characters personality. He also would give me access to Trickery Blessing if I wanted Greater Invis for my Major Blessing... or Falayna.

What is all the hubub about Obedience and the Boons? That is super new to me.

Scarab Sages

The obedience is basically what's listed. It's a daily ritual that you are assumed to have completed for PFS, unless the scenario specifically denies you the opportunity to rest.

The boons you can ignore in PFS unless you take the mystery cultist PrC, as you don't get the first one until level 12.

Silver Crusade

Whew, You all are a lifesaver! That would have been a mess D:

Thank you again!

Scarab Sages

Also, to do the obedience, you need to take the celestial obedience feat. For most of the options, it's not worth it. My Tetori follower of Falayna took it at level 3.


Regardless of the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the character concept, you're relying on a lot of new and controversial rules. If you're planning to double up on Wisdom to AC, be aware that it could go away and you might not be given the option to rebuild if it does. MoMS is also getting enough blame for 'problem' builds that I wouldn't be surprised if a FAQ/Errata turned up sooner or later.

Right or wrong, a lot of GMs seeing this build are going to make some assumptions about how you'll play. Just so you go into this aware of that.


Lol, fair deuce Bruce.

People can indeed enjoy the game whichever way they want, even if sometimes passes over the whole RP part of the game.

Though I do feel that if you are dipping cheese you also need to accept the parts you do not like.

Just as the paladin-code is in part (mechanically) a tax for some nice dipping (smite and Divine Grace), the same goes for the monk.

I would absolutely be on the lookout if this happens at my table and if somebody has a character playing extremely chaotic I would not allow them to take levels in Monk.

Nevertheless, as for advice; Combat Style Master at 9th helps the build. So does dipping at level 2 for asap access to Pummeling Charge is smart. Consider MoMS/Monk of the Sacred Mountain for natural armour and Toughness. Second Style Snake Style I reckon? And get an agile AoMF.


redward wrote:

Regardless of the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the character concept, you're relying on a lot of new and controversial rules. If you're planning to double up on Wisdom to AC, be aware that it could go away and you might not be given the option to rebuild if it does. MoMS is also getting enough blame for 'problem' builds that I wouldn't be surprised if a FAQ/Errata turned up sooner or later.

Right or wrong, a lot of GMs seeing this build are going to make some assumptions about how you'll play. Just so you go into this aware of that.

He's assuming they don't stack. Which doesn't effect the character significantly other than instead of having AC 24 he has AC 21.

Monk of many styles will never get an errata. They've already proven it with crane style. They'd gut pummeling style/charge first which would allow the retraining of that + prerequisites leaving you with a very potent Snake style, snake fang and panther style, panther claw style fusion.


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Undone wrote:
redward wrote:

Regardless of the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the character concept, you're relying on a lot of new and controversial rules. If you're planning to double up on Wisdom to AC, be aware that it could go away and you might not be given the option to rebuild if it does. MoMS is also getting enough blame for 'problem' builds that I wouldn't be surprised if a FAQ/Errata turned up sooner or later.

Right or wrong, a lot of GMs seeing this build are going to make some assumptions about how you'll play. Just so you go into this aware of that.

He's assuming they don't stack. Which doesn't effect the character significantly other than instead of having AC 24 he has AC 21.

Monk of many styles will never get an errata. They've already proven it with crane style. They'd gut pummeling style/charge first which would allow the retraining of that + prerequisites leaving you with a very potent Snake style, snake fang and panther style, panther claw style fusion.

I'm playing my MOMS/SF currently under the assumption they don't stack, its fine. Its still a really good combo.

I also doubt we will see a FAQ/Errata on MOMS, though it could happen, I put it at 10% or under.


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Undone wrote:
redward wrote:

Regardless of the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the character concept, you're relying on a lot of new and controversial rules. If you're planning to double up on Wisdom to AC, be aware that it could go away and you might not be given the option to rebuild if it does. MoMS is also getting enough blame for 'problem' builds that I wouldn't be surprised if a FAQ/Errata turned up sooner or later.

Right or wrong, a lot of GMs seeing this build are going to make some assumptions about how you'll play. Just so you go into this aware of that.

He's assuming they don't stack. Which doesn't effect the character significantly other than instead of having AC 24 he has AC 21.

Monk of many styles will never get an errata. They've already proven it with crane style. They'd gut pummeling style/charge first which would allow the retraining of that + prerequisites leaving you with a very potent Snake style, snake fang and panther style, panther claw style fusion.

I'm playing my MOMS/SF currently under the assumption they don't stack, its fine. Its still a really good combo.

I also doubt we will see a FAQ/Errata on MOMS, though it could happen, I put it at 10% or under.

The chances of MoMS not being able to cheat something in I'd put at much lower. It however IS possible that it will be banned from PFS at some point.


Rambear wrote:
Though I do feel that if you are dipping cheese you also need to accept the parts you do not like.

Why is dipping cheese? Who decides what cheese is?

If I have a concept I'd like to play and the best means of doing so is to dip for features I need for said concept then why is that cheese?

If I want to make a character who ties most everything to wisdom and charisma why can't I dip cleric and spend feats to get wisdom to hit and dip oracle for charisma to AC and dip monk for wisdom to AC. You lose overall power of a class by slowing down feature progression by picking up features elsewhere.

Lv. 12 with no items and 20 pt buy

Str 7
Dex 7
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 18
Cha 15

Start 1 level of Cleric: Crusader (wisdom to hit by level 1 with terrible damage)
Dip 1 level of Oracle: Lore (Cha to AC and reflex saves)
Dip 2 levels of ranger to get power attack
Dip 2 levels of Monk: MoMS and grab a good style feat or two and evasion.
Dip 3 levels of Inquisitor for more solo tactics
Dip 3 levels of fighter: Weapon Master for weapon training.

Overall your damage sucks and you have a slightly lower BAB than a 3/4 who would have +7 to your +6 by level 10. You get a ton of abilities tied to wisdom and charisma as was the intent. I don't get the cheese.

Cheese was playing diablo 1 and getting the butcher stuck on the staircase to beat him. Exploiting a situation to trivialize an encounter. In this case the AI was too stupid to go around the stairs and just ran into them until he died.

Making character choices, regardless of any opinion of wrongbadfun, is what the game is about. There is no rule that says you can't multiclass or that you can only multiclass when some arbitrary decision has been made that you're performing "cheese".

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a post. If what you're posting isn't actually advice for the original poster, don't post it.


Flawed wrote:
Rambear wrote:
Though I do feel that if you are dipping cheese you also need to accept the parts you do not like.

Why is dipping cheese? Who decides what cheese is?

If I have a concept I'd like to play and the best means of doing so is to dip for features I need for said concept then why is that cheese?

If I want to make a character who ties most everything to wisdom and charisma why can't I dip cleric and spend feats to get wisdom to hit and dip oracle for charisma to AC and dip monk for wisdom to AC. You lose overall power of a class by slowing down feature progression by picking up features elsewhere.

I decide that. Because my opinion is most valid in all matters, that's why!

Mostly, it is because in my, most humble, opinion you play a ROLE PLAYING game. You build a character who you will play in a story. Sure, mechanics support to an extent how your character can contribute to a story.

But "wanting to key everything of stat Y an Q because powah" is not a character concept.

I want to be; a knight who can turn into a dragon/the strongest man in the world who can wrestle a terrasque and win/a holy man who can punch stuff etc are part of a character concept.

What this does is make a build, and I personally like it better when my build is based of off a cool story-concept, not the other way around.

If your average joe-monk would play 2-3 levels, find a monastary and their decide to start fighting for his faith that would make it more palletable.

Again, to each their own, but I find it a bit of an MMO approach to the game. To me ppersonally I love my fluff. Fluff gives a concept taste. And this is a concept which lacks fluff and focuses on power, which to me tastes like french mouldy cheese ;).

Silver Crusade

redward wrote:

Regardless of the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the character concept, you're relying on a lot of new and controversial rules. If you're planning to double up on Wisdom to AC, be aware that it could go away and you might not be given the option to rebuild if it does. MoMS is also getting enough blame for 'problem' builds that I wouldn't be surprised if a FAQ/Errata turned up sooner or later.

Right or wrong, a lot of GMs seeing this build are going to make some assumptions about how you'll play. Just so you go into this aware of that.

I brought this "Monk" to the table, not to even think or attempt to take advantage of the whole Double AC Dip. So let's just throw that out the window, please! I brought this character in, understanding I start with 17 AC. However, I brought some potions of mage armor with me, just in case. It turns out, there was a Witch kind enough to keep Mage Armor on me anyways. So, I get to run around with 21+ AC regardless :D

I understand the "cheesiness" of MoMS builds, but I'm not doing it to be OP or cause problems, I'm doing it to make what I see a Monk truly as(though I will whole heartedly miss Purity of Body and Diamond Body, which I feel really fit the Monk class). I am quite aware they will make assumptions on how I'll play, but I can guarantee they'll judge me incorrectly. I'm not there to take advantage of the game, I'm there to RP, RollP, make friends, and otherwise enjoy the legit(finally) "Monk" I'm creating.

Thanks for the warnings, though!

Rambear wrote:

Lol, fair deuce Bruce.

People can indeed enjoy the game whichever way they want, even if sometimes passes over the whole RP part of the game.

Though I do feel that if you are dipping cheese you also need to accept the parts you do not like.

Just as the paladin-code is in part (mechanically) a tax for some nice dipping (smite and Divine Grace), the same goes for the monk.

I would absolutely be on the lookout if this happens at my table and if somebody has a character playing extremely chaotic I would not allow them to take levels in Monk.

Nevertheless, as for advice; Combat Style Master at 9th helps the build. So does dipping at level 2 for asap access to Pummeling Charge is smart. Consider MoMS/Monk of the Sacred Mountain for natural armour and Toughness. Second Style Snake Style I reckon? And get an agile AoMF.

Everyone has their favorite aspects of the game! :D

Thank you for the advice!

Grand Lodge

Im wondering why potions of cure light and not scrolls. 25g verses 50g. Does seem like a big deal but your basically throwing away 50g right there.

Spells prepared...im not a fan of detect poison as you can detect it but do very little about it at 1st level. Try out enhance diplomacy. Early on this is a nice boost to your party face. Also both skills can be done untrained as well. Other 0 levels I have good us ed of is create water and light (if no wayfinder) and virtue (good first 2 levels useless after) and read magic depends if your DM rules you can't figure out what a scroll is without it.

Silver Crusade

I must say, with my second PFS game ever, in the Mummy's Mask scenario, the Sacred Fist working out QUITE WELL.

We started with our intros(group is composed of a Witch, Investigator-Mastermind, Cleric/Monk, Hunter, and Warpriest(me!)), went to town to stock up on supplies, then headed out to a tomb in search of... stuff and thangs. We arrived, and went down several levels of the tomb, fighting several creatures along the way.

Skills:
He did well in his perception checks, locating a switch or trap here and there, and the knowledge religion came in handy on many occasions. Detect poison actually found two sources of poison too! Skill-wise, he's just as useful as anyone else for the most part. The Investigator-Mastermind can pretty much cover every language and skill available, though. I can really only be but so "useful" as a "Monk" when it comes to skills anyways.

Combat:
With the very kind blessing of Mage Armor by the Witch in the group(I believe he had a wand), I was able to bump my AC to 21 for the entire session(though I think it'll be 2-8 minutes left on it next time) and for each fight within. The only thing I was hit by, was some splash from a friendly's Alchemist Fire and a weird Cursed Mirror. I saved from nearly everything with average or better rolls + my modifiers. I would Trip opponents without fear of being decimated with their AoO, since my AC was high enough and I didn't have Improved Trip. Now, the only weapon I have is my Fists/Body; So I was mostly pelvic thrusting, headbutting and punching/kicking. That being said, nearly everything in there happened to have Bludgeoning resistance... but THANK GOD FOR PUMMELING STYLE. That was the smartest thing I could take at level 1. Instead of subtracting 5 damage, from my 1d6+1 fist, for each strike, it was -5 from 2d6+2 for both attacks. I just want to reiterate, that Pummeling Style made such a HUGE difference for me. I absolutely 10000% recommend this Style for any Fist fighting unit, as soon as possible. At one point, I did use Divine Favor, bumping me up to 1d6+3 damage, and a total of +6 attack. It was the perfect amount of damage to generally one shot most creatures with a pummel. Otherwise, I was using my level 0 spells often, mostly detect poison, because my character just really likes detecting poison. Unfortunately, until I acquire Fervor(level 2), I won't be doing much divine casting. After, I'll probably Swift some Divine Favor on me often, and save my other spells for helping my party members(remove sickness as a good example).

RP:
Well, I keep it silly both in game and out of game. Enough said :) Also, I decided to make my character overconfident and rather risky... which is part of how he ended up with "Thief" in some ancient language, brutally carved into his forehead LOL. He keeps the party chuckling.

So far, I LOVE this Sacred Fist. I don't want to play anything else for a whiiiiile. As long as I upkeep his AC in whatever way I can, and don't die, I think this will work out perfectly to both satisfy my style and the group!

Silver Crusade

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Im wondering why potions of cure light and not scrolls. 25g verses 50g. Does seem like a big deal but your basically throwing away 50g right there.

Spells prepared...im not a fan of detect poison as you can detect it but do very little about it at 1st level. Try out enhance diplomacy. Early on this is a nice boost to your party face. Also both skills can be done untrained as well. Other 0 levels I have good us ed of is create water and light (if no wayfinder) and virtue (good first 2 levels useless after) and read magic depends if your DM rules you can't figure out what a scroll is without it.

Excellent advice! Yes, sadly Detect Poison didn't really come in handy. It's likely something I'll drop. I'll certainly take all of your suggestions to heart.


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I recommend spending 2 PP for a wand of CLW and a wand of mage armor. It's cheap and gives you easy access to mage armor. Additionally while my spell guide doesn't cover cantrips I'd recommend guidance as you can spam it out of combat for skill checks. It's somewhat annoying though so it's up to you.


Glad you enjoyed the build!

Silver Crusade

Rambear wrote:
Glad you enjoyed the build!

Absolutely!

It'll be a tough choice between MoSM and Terra-Cotta for me, as I just like to bring more to the party when I can. Then again, there's always a Rogue/Trapfinder somewhere...

This sounds a little silly, but the Styles I want are: Snake, Dragon, Pummeling, Monkey, and then Snake Fang and Pummeling Charge. I can fit them in the long-run, but that is probably overdoing it : P I just feel like he really should know several styles, and be able to swap/fuse them with ease around the 8th or 9th level.

So many choices!

Scarab Sages

How did you compare to the Cleric/Monk? you both fill the same design space, but the Sacred Fist seems to fill it much better.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
How did you compare to the Cleric/Monk? you both fill the same design space, but the Sacred Fist seems to fill it much better.

He had a great concept(Something-Monk+Ecclesitheurge Cleric or it may have been Cloistered... I just remember it prevented him from sporting any Armor/Shield), but sadly his Damage just wasn't there. He ran out of spells, and ended up putting Guidance on whomever. He didn't seem too happy.

I'd have to say Sacred Fist performs much better, especially with the Traits and Style I chose.


I think it looks like a fine build. I've been considering something similar.

Just like to make a quick comment about the following:

Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:
... rather raunchy ... and involve a lot of pelvic thrusting in combat....

Be careful on going to far with this kind of joking around if you don't know all the players very well. Some people get pretty easily offended by this kind of thing. I know of at least a couple of people that have quit PFS because it got too pervasive.


Rambear wrote:

Lol, fair deuce Bruce.

People can indeed enjoy the game whichever way they want, even if sometimes passes over the whole RP part of the game.

Though I do feel that if you are dipping cheese you also need to accept the parts you do not like.

Just as the paladin-code is in part (mechanically) a tax for some nice dipping (smite and Divine Grace), the same goes for the monk.

I would absolutely be on the lookout if this happens at my table and if somebody has a character playing extremely chaotic I would not allow them to take levels in Monk.

Nevertheless, as for advice; Combat Style Master at 9th helps the build. So does dipping at level 2 for asap access to Pummeling Charge is smart. Consider MoMS/Monk of the Sacred Mountain for natural armour and Toughness. Second Style Snake Style I reckon? And get an agile AoMF.

On the code of conduct, if he is playing chaotic the only penalty is not being able to take anymore monk levels. he does not lose monk abilities. ofc if he was chaotic before being monk he couldnt get it

Silver Crusade

My next game with this character is Wednesday, so I won't update until then. I did decide to go Lawful Neutral, and worship Khepri. This should solve the alignment issue, and the Liberation Blessing issue. I really REALLY like Khepri's history; and it's unusually fitting for Mummy's Mask.

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