Why Rogue when you can Ninja?

[Mattastrophic]

Wow, a whole page went by, and no one mentioned Evasion at 2nd?

That's surprising.

-Matt

[chaoseffect]

Mattastrophic wrote:

Wow, a whole page went by, and no one mentioned Evasion at 2nd?

That's surprising.

-Matt

What about it? Evasion is nice to have, but nicer than swift action invisibility/greater invisibility? No.

[thegreenteagamer]

In a low point-buy system, a rogue is a little less MAD than a ninja. You can build a rogue that totally dumps all but dex and con. A ninja adds charisma to that mix.

I also am a fan of the archetypes the rogue has, which the ninja can't get into. I do like front-loaded evasion as well.

Some settings I feel out of place as a ninja.

[Atarlost]

Zhangar wrote:

Ninjas are superior combatants (at least until they run out of ki), but not quite as good as actual scouts.

All it takes to ruin a ninja's day is an alarm spell. She'll either set it off, or have to go slinking back to the party and bring back a spell caster to chuck dispels at it until it sticks.

Spellcasting is kind of conspicuous, which may defeat the purpose of stealthy recon in the first place =P

Anywho. The short answer to "why play a rogue" is "because I actually want to a play a rogue." The longer answer is "because I want to see what I can do with what's allegedly the worst class in the game."

Rogues don't get the "I win" buttons that have been handed out to other classes, but are still quite effective in the hands of a good player.

Actually, Alarm ruins the rogue's day too. It's a spell, not a trap. Trapfinding is not applicable. It also, unlike the symbol spells and fire trap, doesn't have the verbage allowing a rogue to use disable device on it. To get past an alarm spell you need the detect magic cantrip and dispel magic. Since bards can't silence their spells and bombs can't be silenced that means only inquisitors and druids need apply (or 10+ level bards with zone of silence). Druids, of course, don't even trigger the thing past 8th level because they're diminutive.

[DrDeth]

Atarlost wrote:

Actually, Alarm ruins the rogue's day too. It's a spell, not a trap. Trapfinding is not applicable. It also, unlike the symbol spells and fire trap, doesn't have the verbage allowing a rogue to use disable device on it.

Meh. It quacks, it has webbed feet, and feathers. It's a trap. You dont need explicit language, just common sense.

[Lucy_Valentine]

To the OP: I really wouldn't worry about it. I've crunched some numbers and frankly it doesn't seem that big a damage potential. And you can negate the invis with level 2 casting if you ever want to make things interesting, so...

Laiho Vanallo wrote:

I would take 2 levels of trapper ranger...No you got yourself a ninja with a slightly higher BAB, the ability to find traps, better overall saves, the ability to use a lot of wands.... yeah that would basically be the Rogue ++

Trappers give up spellcasting. You've still got UMD, but you didn't get the wands from trapper. On the bright side, looking at the SRD it seems like you get trapfinding at level 1.

You could go Urban Ranger for three levels to get trapfinding with ranger spells.

[RumpinRufus]

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

[unforgivn]

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

Barbarian can panic opponents with Intimidate using Dazzling Display and Terrifying Howl.

[RumpinRufus]

unforgivn wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

Barbarian can panic opponents with Intimidate using Dazzling Display and Terrifying Howl.

Panic them unless they make a Will save. A Rogue can frighten with no save, just an Intimidate check. And anyone who's ever made an Intimidate build knows that Intimidate is one of the easiest skills to completely max out.

Add to that that the barbarian has to use a standard action (as opposed to the rogue's immediate action or free action from Cornugon Smash or Enforcer,) and that once the barbarian fails he can't try it again (whereas the rogue can do it multiple times by adding 5 to the DC.)

[blackbloodtroll]

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

Anyone with the Disheartening Display feat.

[Nicos]

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

That is great I guess. Thug 1/ whatever else 19 then.

[RumpinRufus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

Anyone with the Disheartening Display feat.

By using two full-round actions, instead of a free action.

[Lemmy]

Nicos wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

That is great I guess. Thug 1/ whatever else 19 then.

Hey, let's be fair... It might be Thug 3/whatever else 17. Maybe even Thug 4/whatever else 16 if you don't want to hurt your BAB...

Still, you're probably better off playing an Undead-bloodline Bloodrager.

[Righty_]

Your ninja is missing a pair of items increase damage.
agile weapons, headband of ninjitsu. He should be putting down at least a bonus of 8-10 per hit or more.

With a little modification you can start doubling the sneak attack dice. But only on the flat footed condition.

Thug is a nice direction. I also like Rake to improve the intimidate. But my all time favorite is arcane trickster.

[Nicos]

Lemmy wrote:

Nicos wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

EpicFail wrote:

everything a Rogue can do other classes can do as well without having its mechanical problems.

This is wrong. What other class can use the Intimidate skill to impart the Frightened condition?

That is great I guess. Thug 1/ whatever else 19 then.

Hey, let's be fair... It might be Thug 3/whatever else 17. Maybe even Thug 4/whatever else 16 if you don't want to hurt your BAB...

Still, you're probably better off playing an Undead-bloodline Bloodrager.

IN all fairness yes, I do like the 3rd level thug ability.

[Bo Atlas]

Nicos - stack that in with some pressure points, dispelling strike, and a pair of Monk levels - its fun for the whole family.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I like the chellenge.

[Nicos]

Bo Atlas wrote:

Nicos - stack that in with some pressure points, dispelling strike, and a pair of Monk levels - its fun for the whole family.

I Maybe would take Lore warden 3 and perhaps then maneuver master so I can dirty trick and the power attack + cornugon smash with the next attack. Blind+shaken/frightened+sickened in one movement seems pretty good, perhaps even trip or disarm.

[wraithstrike]

DrDeth wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

Actually, Alarm ruins the rogue's day too. It's a spell, not a trap. Trapfinding is not applicable. It also, unlike the symbol spells and fire trap, doesn't have the verbage allowing a rogue to use disable device on it.

Meh. It quacks, it has webbed feet, and feathers. It's a trap. You dont need explicit language, just common sense.

It is not a trap by RAW or RAI. All it does is sound an alarm. You can use magic mouth to a similar affect, and it is not a trap either.

[RumpinRufus]

Wait, so is Symbol of Revelation not a trap either?

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some posts. If what you're posting isn't advice, don't post it. Also, let's not rehash the same arguments between the same people in an unrelated thread. There are plenty of rogue threads around the messageboards, don't derail this one. Thanks!