Sniper (Advice, please)


Advice


I'm new to pathfinder in general, and am building this character as a potential back-up character, and I've only got a loose concept so far, but I'd like advice in how to make it a better build.

The concept is a character who is at home on the tops of roofs plunking at his foes from afar with a heavy crossbow. I know there are better classes to build for crossbows, but I've chosen rogue for their skill monkey-ism. I also want this character to be an... Inventor? not sure if that's the correct word... I want them to be able to create their own bows, and cool gadgets and such.

Here's what I have so far, and only lvl 1 for now.

14 STR
16 DEX
14 CON
16 INT
10 WIS
10 CHA

Catfolk from the featured races of Advanced Race Guide, and the climber alternate racial trait, chosen because it gives me a climb speed, useful to get to a sniping position.
Heavy crossbow, as well as two Tube Arrow Shooters, if I need to attack instead of reloading the heavy crossbow.
Took the "Black Cat" racial feat to give me some extra melee defense.
Two traits: Mathematical Prodigy, +1 on arcana and engineering, and to get engineering as a class skill, and Toilcrafter, with craft bows, to eventually be able to craft magical bows.
11 skill points, on each in Acrobatics, Appraise, Climb, Craft (Bows), Disable Device, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Engineering), Perception, Profession (Engineer), Sleight of Hand and Stealth.

Is there anything I should consider to change or re-work?


Sorry to be that guy. But this is just a bad idea. Ignoring the fact that you are choosing to be a rogue, you are also choosing the crossbow wich is really inferior weapon, and to make things worse Heavy corssbows are horrible more times than not. The diference between 1d10 vs 1d8 is unimportant.

As a general rule (there are exceptions) the more arrows/bolts you can fire the better.

Third. The combination Rogues and raged combat is just one of the weakest things in the game, seriously.

I heavily recommed to be a slayer instead. You will have the skills, the feats, the rogue talents, the sneak damage and even if yu still want to use heavy crossbows (wich I advice agaisnt) Salyers are just better for that too.


Nicos wrote:

Sorry to be that guy. But this is just a bad idea. Ignoring the fact that you are choosing to be a rogue, you are also choosing the crossbow wich is really inferior weapon, and to make things worse Heavy corssbows are horrible more times than not. The diference between 1d10 vs 1d8 is unimportant.

As a general rule (there are exceptions) the more arrows/bolts you can fire the better.

Third. The combination Rogues and raged combat is just one of the weakest things in the game, seriously.

I heavily recommed to be a slayer instead. You will have the skills, the feats, the rogue talents, the sneak damage and even if yu still want to use heavy crossbows (wich I advice agaisnt) Salyers are just better for that too.

Yeah, I figured that rogue was a bad choice, but I'm trying to build a character who is a real sniper, long range, single hit loads of damage, and honestly, I'm not sure if that is even possible. I will look into slayers, however.


If you want to use a crossbow, the Bolt Ace (Gunslinger archetype from the Advanced Class Guide) is the only real option.


Arachnofiend wrote:
If you want to use a crossbow, the Bolt Ace (Gunslinger archetype from the Advanced Class Guide) is the only real option.

I hadn't even considered gunslinger, current group is in a setting without firearms, but I think that could work out decently, still unsure about a build, however.


I second bolt ace. It's exactly what you are looking for.


Apologies if some of this is obvious to you, but you say you are new to PF, so I'm not assuming much knowledge.

The profession skill may not be very useful, check with your GM.
Crossbows are made with the weapon crafting skill, not bows.

And the questions/suggestions
You might find alchemy to fit your motif, can be very gadgety, and handles poison making, which goes with sniping (alignment and legalities permitting.)
Mechanically a composite bow will be a stronger weapon, particularly with your strength, depending on how much of your image is attached to the crossbow.
Repeating crossbow! Lots of gadget feel, and free action to reload. As soon as you can afford, or build, it and get the feat to use it.
Hand crossbows as concealed backup weapons.
Point blank shot would be the usual feat get access to further archery feats, but proficiency in repeating crossbow might be a good option.
You might look at a ranger instead of rogue, they make good snipers as well.
What are you looking to do with a strength of 14? Doesn't help you use a crossbow.
And make sure your GM is cool with the inventor aspect before you try it.


Axelthegreat wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
If you want to use a crossbow, the Bolt Ace (Gunslinger archetype from the Advanced Class Guide) is the only real option.
I hadn't even considered gunslinger, current group is in a setting without firearms, but I think that could work out decently, still unsure about a build, however.

Bolt ace are gunslinger with crossbows instead of guns.


Axelthegreat wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
If you want to use a crossbow, the Bolt Ace (Gunslinger archetype from the Advanced Class Guide) is the only real option.
I hadn't even considered gunslinger, current group is in a setting without firearms, but I think that could work out decently, still unsure about a build, however.

The Bolt Ace is a Gunslinger archetype that is designed to use crossbows instead of guns. It has some weird writing in it (despite explicitly not being a guns archetype it still gets a battered firearm and gun proficiency... might want to talk to your GM about switching that out for proficiency in the exotic crossbows) but overall does the job of making crossbows viable just fine.


Java Man wrote:

Apologies if some of this is obvious to you, but you say you are new to PF, so I'm not assuming much knowledge.

The profession skill may not be very useful, check with your GM.
Crossbows are made with the weapon crafting skill, not bows.

And the questions/suggestions
You might find alchemy to fit your motif, can be very gadgety, and handles poison making, which goes with sniping (alignment and legalities permitting.)
Mechanically a composite bow will be a stronger weapon, particularly with your strength, depending on how much of your image is attached to the crossbow.
Repeating crossbow! Lots of gadget feel, and free action to reload. As soon as you can afford, or build, it and get the feat to use it.
Hand crossbows as concealed backup weapons.
Point blank shot would be the usual feat get access to further archery feats, but proficiency in repeating crossbow might be a good option.
You might look at a ranger instead of rogue, they make good snipers as well.
What are you looking to do with a strength of 14? Doesn't help you use a crossbow.
And make sure your GM is cool with the inventor aspect before you try it.

I considered alchemist for poison, but I already have a vishkanya archer who mainly uses poison. alignment isn't much of a problem, chaotic neutral (caring only for themselves) I'm not entirely committed to the crossbow, but I am committed to the concept of long-range damage dealing. Hadn't even considered a repeating crossbow, thanks. Hand crossbows is a good choice (tube arrow shooters because a little strapped for cash) strength of 14 for being able to hold my own in melee, as well as carrying capacity. I'm not even sure if I'm going to be with my current group very long (just got together, and the first game we had scheduled got cancelled because of life events on part of the GM.) I took the profession engineer to in conjunction with knowledge engineering, and raft weapon or bows (depends on the weapon I go with) to justify doing cool technological things, like collapsible parts on a crossbow, etc.


Have you considered the Slayer archetype Sniper? It would give you all the good stuff a Slayer gets and fits your idea.


Kyle '88 wrote:
Have you considered the Slayer archetype Sniper? It would give you all the good stuff a Slayer gets and fits your idea.

VAnilla slayer are better for this, weird but true.


I like the concept of the sniper, but it's really difficult to do.

I had this idea for a halfling with the traits/feats to effectively make his sniping -0 as opposed to -20. It takes a trait and a feat I think. I forget the names exactly, but it's halfling specific.

Anyway. I think (Stressing the word think) it could theoretically be a decent support character. With the right feats and tricks you could theoretically get your sneak attack damage every round.

Of course you could do this with Ninja and some snipers goggles a lot easier and better.


If you're looking to "snipe" (in the mechanic sense), Halflings have an alternate racial trait that reduces the stealth penalty to only -10. There's an advanced rogue talent that reduces it another 10, but that's not until higher levels.

I made a Ninja halfling for a module like this with the Ninja assassination trick, and improved invisibility in case it was needed. Never got to actually play him though.


OH my favorite snip is xbow based.
5 levels in bolt ace. I personally use a double xbow, but i like the extra oomph and the restriction to one shot a round haha.
after that slayer or rogue or whatever works. Though synergy for the grit points is always nice.


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The sniper is such an archetypical character concept that it's weird that it's so hard to build one in Pathfinder. I'm running into this for a campaign I'm writing right now - one of my PCs once to be a sniper-type character.

I would definitely suggest slayer over rogue. Studied target is awesome and has no range limit. At low levels you are basically going to be a standard ranged rogue - i.e. sucking pretty hard. However, once you can save up the money for a pair of sniper goggles things start to look better. You will also want endless ammunition on your crossbow - expensive, but you are basically paying for style points. Yes, bows are stronger, but heavy crossbows are cooler. Plus you can fire a crossbow while prone, and you just aren't a sniper if you aren't firing prone.

I would also suggest a dip in shadowdancer for hide in plain sight, although slayer camouflage works just as well if you are willing to wait until 10th.

Is this an outdoorsy campaign? Because here's the thing - like any good sniper, you will need a lot of preparation. You need to be willing to split yourself from the party. Ideally, you need to find a vantage point where you can see the party, but are at least 150-200 feet away from combat. At that distance, with your high Stealth (your stealth is high, right?), the penalty on monster perception checks should be enough to keep you from being spotted. Don't forget to ask your GM for situational stealth bonuses because a) you are prone and b) you half buried yourself in dirt and leaves.

Also, carry something you can use to signal the party in a hurry. A wand of fireball with enough UMD or some kind of flare or something. Some way to say "guys, the sniper just got ambushed!"

Vital strike will probably also be your friend if you are going for the whole "one shot, one kill" feel. I would talk to your DM to see if there is any way he will let you get the gunslinger's "dead shot" deed. If he is really, really nice he might house rule that you can combine dead shot with vital strike (only adding vital strike damage once, of course), but don't count on either of those things.

What you can definitely do is pick up the Amateur Gunslinger feat to take the Bolt Ace's "Sharp Shoot" deed - combine that with a distance heavy crossbow and once per day you get to target touch AC from up to 240 feet away.

The other good news is that assassinate doesn't have a built in range limit, so with those sniper goggles you can pull it off from any range.


MaxAstro wrote:

The sniper is such an archetypical character concept that it's weird that it's so hard to build one in Pathfinder. I'm running into this for a campaign I'm writing right now - one of my PCs once to be a sniper-type character.

I would definitely suggest slayer over rogue. Studied target is awesome and has no range limit. At low levels you are basically going to be a standard ranged rogue - i.e. sucking pretty hard. However, once you can save up the money for a pair of sniper goggles things start to look better. You will also want endless ammunition on your crossbow - expensive, but you are basically paying for style points. Yes, bows are stronger, but heavy crossbows are cooler. Plus you can fire a crossbow while prone, and you just aren't a sniper if you aren't firing prone.

I would also suggest a dip in shadowdancer for hide in plain sight, although slayer camouflage works just as well if you are willing to wait until 10th.

Is this an outdoorsy campaign? Because here's the thing - like any good sniper, you will need a lot of preparation. You need to be willing to split yourself from the party. Ideally, you need to find a vantage point where you can see the party, but are at least 150-200 feet away from combat. At that distance, with your high Stealth (your stealth is high, right?), the penalty on monster perception checks should be enough to keep you from being spotted. Don't forget to ask your GM for situational stealth bonuses because a) you are prone and b) you half buried yourself in dirt and leaves.

Also, carry something you can use to signal the party in a hurry. A wand of fireball with enough UMD or some kind of flare or something. Some way to say "guys, the sniper just got ambushed!"

Vital strike will probably also be your friend if you are going for the whole "one shot, one kill" feel. I would talk to your DM to see if there is any way he will let you get the gunslinger's "dead shot" deed. If he is really, really nice he might house rule that you can...

You definitely want to save up for Sniper Goggles.

An evil sniper NPC tore our party up a few years ago with a well-prepared ambush. We were tenth level and he gutted the Ankylosaurus I summoned in one round. And killed my PC, come to think of it.


MaxAstro wrote:

The sniper is such an archetypical character concept that it's weird that it's so hard to build one in Pathfinder. I'm running into this for a campaign I'm writing right now - one of my PCs once to be a sniper-type character.

I would definitely suggest slayer over rogue. Studied target is awesome and has no range limit. At low levels you are basically going to be a standard ranged rogue - i.e. sucking pretty hard. However, once you can save up the money for a pair of sniper goggles things start to look better. You will also want endless ammunition on your crossbow - expensive, but you are basically paying for style points. Yes, bows are stronger, but heavy crossbows are cooler. Plus you can fire a crossbow while prone, and you just aren't a sniper if you aren't firing prone.

I would also suggest a dip in shadowdancer for hide in plain sight, although slayer camouflage works just as well if you are willing to wait until 10th.

Is this an outdoorsy campaign? Because here's the thing - like any good sniper, you will need a lot of preparation. You need to be willing to split yourself from the party. Ideally, you need to find a vantage point where you can see the party, but are at least 150-200 feet away from combat. At that distance, with your high Stealth (your stealth is high, right?), the penalty on monster perception checks should be enough to keep you from being spotted. Don't forget to ask your GM for situational stealth bonuses because a) you are prone and b) you half buried yourself in dirt and leaves.

Also, carry something you can use to signal the party in a hurry. A wand of fireball with enough UMD or some kind of flare or something. Some way to say "guys, the sniper just got ambushed!"

Vital strike will probably also be your friend if you are going for the whole "one shot, one kill" feel. I would talk to your DM to see if there is any way he will let you get the gunslinger's "dead shot" deed. If he is really, really nice he might house rule that you can...

Thanks for the advice, The concept for this character is to be an urbanite, with the whole climbing up buildings and sniping people from the rooftops. Not building it for any campaign in specific. I do remember seeing a feat that would allow you to use a crossbow with rapid shot...


Axelthegreat wrote:
Thanks for the advice, The concept for this character is to be an urbanite, with the whole climbing up buildings and sniping people from the rooftops. Not building it for any campaign in specific. I do remember seeing a feat that would allow you to use a crossbow with rapid shot...

Rapid shot already works with crossbows if youare able to reload as a free action. Which with a light crossbow you can do easily.

Did you mean Many-shots? In which I don't think there is any way to do that.... I think.

Pretty much full attack use light crossbow
If you wanted one super shot, Double xbow, crossbow mastery, vital strike. The reloading sucks, but you could get reloading hands ora few levels in a casting class for it.
So Acebolt 5 or 7. 5 for Dex, 7 for the dead shot ability (sorta like Vital strike). Then either slayer, keep going acebolt (at lv 11 you can swift reload a double xbow), or any class you prefer. Slayer looks tasty, the studied target bonuses apply to both bolts if you go with double xbow. Sneak attack of course only applies once. after lv 10 Assassinate might work withxbow. Althernatively is dipping or going hunter for a guard pet, or a scout pet, and some divine spells. arcane caster+eldrtich knight isn't too shabby either.
Last chocie I see would be myrdemitch (spell wrong) magus. For shooting enchanted spell bolts.
With the double damage modifiers on a double xbow + a spell, can do pretty good damage


Zwordsman wrote:
Axelthegreat wrote:
Thanks for the advice, The concept for this character is to be an urbanite, with the whole climbing up buildings and sniping people from the rooftops. Not building it for any campaign in specific. I do remember seeing a feat that would allow you to use a crossbow with rapid shot...

Rapid shot already works with crossbows if youare able to reload as a free action. Which with a light crossbow you can do easily.

Did you mean Many-shots? In which I don't think there is any way to do that.... I think.

Pretty much full attack use light crossbow
If you wanted one super shot, Double xbow, crossbow mastery, vital strike. The reloading sucks, but you could get reloading hands ora few levels in a casting class for it.
So Acebolt 5 or 7. 5 for Dex, 7 for the dead shot ability (sorta like Vital strike). Then either slayer, keep going acebolt (at lv 11 you can swift reload a double xbow), or any class you prefer. Slayer looks tasty, the studied target bonuses apply to both bolts if you go with double xbow. Sneak attack of course only applies once. after lv 10 Assassinate might work withxbow. Althernatively is dipping or going hunter for a guard pet, or a scout pet, and some divine spells. arcane caster+eldrtich knight isn't too shabby either.
Last chocie I see would be myrdemitch (spell wrong) magus. For shooting enchanted spell bolts.
With the double damage modifiers on a double xbow + a spell, can do pretty good damage

I recently discovered this feat which would allow me to use rapid shot with a heavy crossbow, not trigger attacks of opportunity on reloads (still trigger on attacks) so, light crossbow probably isn't what I'm gonna go with. Like the concept of the heavy crossbow more.


That's reasonable then.
yeah that feat is in the double xbow build i mentioned haha.

Heavy crossbow is fun. the damage between it and light probably isn't worth the feat for crossbow mastery (by points/crunch) but I quite love that feat. Lots of fun crossbows to use with it.
assuming yo ugain access to it, gravity bow makes it pretty good dice. Though like most people say ,the dice size/number of dices end up mattering less than the static (im told anyway.. I still love big dice amounts)


Start with a Marksman with the Sniper Combat Style and the Shroud archetype for swift invisibility and HIPS, add (Greater) Psionic Shot and the Vital Strike chain, and you have a pretty good sniper. Add another psionic focus with Psicrystal Containment, and the Fell Shot feat to resolve as a touch attack for flavor.


houser2112 wrote:
Start with a Marksman with the Sniper Combat Style and the Shroud archetype for swift invisibility and HIPS, add (Greater) Psionic Shot and the Vital Strike chain, and you have a pretty good sniper. Add another psionic focus with Psicrystal Containment, and the Fell Shot feat to resolve as a touch attack for flavor.

I've never actually looked at Psionics... This could be interesting.


Was too excited about this thread to read the rest of the comments before posting so I'm sorry if I repeat anything that's being said.

I am a HUGE sniper fan, my ideal character and alter ego is that of someone who never gets into the fray, always stays as far back as possible and just picks his enemies off. The less they see me the better.

It used to be hard to make a significant sniper in PF, but now it has because MUCH easier with the hybrid classes recently released.

The Slayer class is the class for you.
Dump most (almost all) talents into Deadly Range (I'm assuming most GMs will not allow you to get Sniper Goggles because they are just stupidly broken.)
You also have access to Fast Stealth, Sniper Shot, Terrain Mastery, and Slayer Camouflage (allows to to use sneak without cover while in your favored terrain [chosen from Terrain Mastery Talent])
Slayer specialized in ranged combat and sneaking and tracking. Perfect for any one interested in long-ranged assassinations (SNIPER)
To make it even better the Slayer Class has access to 2 feats that make assassination THAT much easier:

Seething Hatred: deal twice your damage modifier against a single type from the ranger's favored enemy list if they are your studied target.

Extreme Prejudice: increases your sneak attack dice to d8s against targets of your Seething Hatred feat.

Definitely drop the crossbow. Crossbow is just retarded for anybody using stealth, they are the noisiest of all weapon (besides guns), Composite Longbow is the utmost best weapon for ranged sneak attacks.

They stat layout you have works, Dex and Int are definitely the most important ability scores, Str helps with the composite longbow.

Feats to look into:
Deadly Aim
Point-Blank/Precise Shot (Duh)
Weapon Focus
Stealthy

Then you can branch into either of these trees, I would discourage following both, as it becomes too expensive for its own good.

"Sniping" Route: Using the Sniping rules (Use your standard action to attack once, then spend a move action to hide using a stealth check)
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital Strike
Devastating Strike

Far Shot Route: Taking Feats to give you absolute bonuses to far away shots rather than increasing your damage dice pool (This route does not work with the sniping rules as it requires using your move action for other benefits)
Far Shot
Focused Shot
Pinpoint Targeting (Optional)
Sniper Shot

Personally I like the vital strike option better, it just feels like you get more bonuses that way, plus you can keep hiding to throw your enemies off track, but give both routes a thorough look-through and decide which way fits your character best.

Remember stats and abilities are nice, but nothing beats a good role-playing experience.

Hope this helps.

**EDIT: Sorry if this is too long, I am really gung-ho about snipers


Kyle '88 wrote:
Have you considered the Slayer archetype Sniper? It would give you all the good stuff a Slayer gets and fits your idea.

Read the deadly range ability for the Sniper Archetype very carefully, then read the deadly range talent in the class description...

I know errata hasn't come out yet, but still...sniper is no good.

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