Why basic item drops are so rare


Pathfinder Online


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Ryan dropped this little tidbit while he was on the game tonight:

Only the following three baddies and their variants drop introductory items:

Bandit Recruits (including Recruit Archers and the Warriors and Archers from whatever that bandit escalation is)

Goblin Scouts

Omega Wolves

Ryan insisted that, and I quote, "Stephen was horrified... HORRIFIED when discovered this."

Not sure how much of that was tongue-in-cheek; but I am willing to bet not much.

Hope this helps your basic item gathering efforts. Armor is still rare, though :/


Good to know, thanks!

Goblinworks Game Designer

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I was horrified that people hadn't realized that's what's going on ;) . Coulda sworn it was in the original patch note that only level 1 creatures would drop starter gear. That also includes Goblin Warriors, the wimpiest skeletons, and some of the lowest level other human enemies like cultists and raiders.

I'm also adding a diminishing chance of starter gear to the level 2-4 creatures in the next patch. (As in level 2s have less chance than level 1s, level 3s less than that, and level 4s hardly any.)

Goblin Squad Member

lol

... and we have all been trying to take on the higher level spawns assuming they were more likely to drop stuff.

Though I am not seeing this "10% armor drop rate" talked about on the Alpha forums before Alpha 8

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Maybe we could interrogate a goblin and get them to release the loot tables? That way we could find bugs similar to "tailor recipes not in the loot table" more quickly. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Please clarify: are "level 1 creatures" all the ones with the white name, or is there another (invisible) subdivision and you just have to guess by name and ease-of-killing? I got most of my drops from the natures wrath escaltion up in the mountain range that was in alpha 7. The easiest there seemed to be the "pack hunters", so are they equivalent to omega wolves?

Also, could you please make the current loot tables available :-)?

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

I was horrified that people hadn't realized that's what's going on ;) . Coulda sworn it was in the original patch note that only level 1 creatures would drop starter gear. That also includes Goblin Warriors, the wimpiest skeletons, and some of the lowest level other human enemies like cultists and raiders.

I'm also adding a diminishing chance of starter gear to the level 2-4 creatures in the next patch. (As in level 2s have less chance than level 1s, level 3s less than that, and level 4s hardly any.)

Figured it out, was horrified that it was intended. This will cause farming right outside of certain settlements for a long time. Especially since it was intended that you will need crafting 5+ in at least one skill to make basic gear.

I kill Purple Ogre, it drops nothing... What?

Its great in the long run for a player economy, but the basic gear should be a dime a dozen.

Goblin Squad Member

albadeon wrote:

Please clarify: are "level 1 creatures" all the ones with the white name, or is there another (invisible) subdivision and you just have to guess by name and ease-of-killing? I got most of my drops from the natures wrath escaltion up in the mountain range that was in alpha 7. The easiest there seemed to be the "pack hunters", so are they equivalent to omega wolves?

Also, could you please make the current loot tables available :-)?

Its an invisible subdivision.

Bandit
Bandit Recruit

both are white, the bandit is not in the tables.

Now with the changes, That is a great question for the other whites.


albadeon wrote:

Please clarify: are "level 1 creatures" all the ones with the white name, or is there another (invisible) subdivision and you just have to guess by name and ease-of-killing? I got most of my drops from the natures wrath escaltion up in the mountain range that was in alpha 7. The easiest there seemed to be the "pack hunters", so are they equivalent to omega wolves?

Also, could you please make the current loot tables available :-)?

To give a slightly different answer from Xeen's above:

If you hit it and seem to take out about half or more of its HP in the first attack, it is almost definitely lvl 1 (unless you are using a greatsword and swinging for 290 points of damage).

I've noticed that the color of a creatures name really doesn't mean anything. Goblin Shamans and Bombers are elite goblins and absolutely deadly but are all white named creatures. The other night, though, I was wiping out mobs a red named bandits with no problem. Of course, this might also highlight the differnce between a longbow and a short bow, but that is another story.

Just pay attention to how quickly you are able to kill it. If it dies faster than anything else and you find yourself tending to favor it for crowd thinning, then it is a level 1 critter.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
...only level 1 creatures would drop starter gear.

Giving us the loot tables might encourage skipping monsters--of any level--if they don't drop just the right thing, which feels a bit silly to encourage. The level 1 monsters have what we need, but after they're dead, we still have a gaping maw of equipment-need to fill, so we have to go further afield. Skipping level 3 and 4 monsters, while we're still trying to establish basic load-outs, seems a viable stratagem.

Perhaps you could give us a listing of all monster-names by level, or any other way to know what level we're looking at, instead?

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

I was horrified that people hadn't realized that's what's going on ;) . Coulda sworn it was in the original patch note that only level 1 creatures would drop starter gear. That also includes Goblin Warriors, the wimpiest skeletons, and some of the lowest level other human enemies like cultists and raiders.

I'm also adding a diminishing chance of starter gear to the level 2-4 creatures in the next patch. (As in level 2s have less chance than level 1s, level 3s less than that, and level 4s hardly any.)

I wish to recommend that unneeded weapons and armor should be resources for deriving small quantities of needed recipe components. To offset the likely consequence that crafters will persistently hunt out all creatures in nearby hexes for materials let there be low level gear dropping across the map.

It would encourage exploration farther out, I think, if the picking are slim but occasional near the settlements.


Being wrote:

I wish to recommend that unneeded weapons and armor should be resources for deriving small quantities of needed recipe components. To offset the likely consequence that crafters will persistently hunt out all creatures in nearby hexes for materials let there be low level gear dropping across the map.

It would encourage exploration farther out, I think, if the picking are slim but occasional near the settlements.

So basically treat monsters as resource nodes for the purposes of depletion.

I could see adding in a new set of refining recipes that allow for melting down swords, dismantling bows, and pulling apart armor.

Goblin Squad Member

I'd be happy if I could find a single damned goblin of any kind! Makes finishing the starter quest problematic.

Goblin Squad Member

West central area of the map has many Gobblies.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
Being wrote:

I wish to recommend that unneeded weapons and armor should be resources for deriving small quantities of needed recipe components. To offset the likely consequence that crafters will persistently hunt out all creatures in nearby hexes for materials let there be low level gear dropping across the map.

It would encourage exploration farther out, I think, if the picking are slim but occasional near the settlements.

So basically treat monsters as resource nodes for the purposes of depletion.

I could see adding in a new set of refining recipes that allow for melting down swords, dismantling bows, and pulling apart armor.

Goblins are already the next best things to resource nodes for an apothecary. All of those bags of "X/Y/Z stuff" substitute quite nicely for chemical precursors.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

During the first couple of weeks of EE, will Level 1 enemies be the main source* of +0 gear? I seem to recall a developer statement that there might be some NPC vendors selling the most basic starter gear. Maybe that idea changed into the NPCs who give away short bows, wands, and foci.

*A lot of +0 gear requires higher crafter levels than we're likely to see right away.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:

During the first couple of weeks of EE, will Level 1 enemies be the main source* of +0 gear? I seem to recall a developer statement that there might be some NPC vendors selling the most basic starter gear. Maybe that idea changed into the NPCs who give away short bows, wands, and foci.

*A lot of +0 gear requires higher crafter levels than we're likely to see right away.

The difficulty, if we're not likely to see NPC vendors for weapons, armour, and consumables, is exactly the same as the observation Lee made about us voraciously over-harvesting everything in sight beyond the bounds of all expectation: we're doing the same to monsters. If those level 1 monsters are supposed to be the source for all new arrivals' equipment for all time, but "advanced" players continue to wipe out everything in sight simply because we can, how are newcomers going to get their gear from level 1 monsters?

Yes, I know people are going to have many ideas about those newcomers getting gear from other players, Companies, Settlements, and such, but if the level 1 monsters are *intended* to provide that gear, how are they expected to do so?

Goblin Squad Member

Well, that explains why I haven't seen so much starter gear. I guess now the question is why I see so few level 1 mobs. I'll wander out and encounter a few, but then suddenly everything is regular bandits and alpha wolves.

Goblin Squad Member

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T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
KarlBob wrote:

During the first couple of weeks of EE, will Level 1 enemies be the main source* of +0 gear? I seem to recall a developer statement that there might be some NPC vendors selling the most basic starter gear. Maybe that idea changed into the NPCs who give away short bows, wands, and foci.

*A lot of +0 gear requires higher crafter levels than we're likely to see right away.

The difficulty, if we're not likely to see NPC vendors for weapons, armour, and consumables, is exactly the same as the observation Lee made about us voraciously over-harvesting everything in sight beyond the bounds of all expectation: we're doing the same to monsters. If those level 1 monsters are supposed to be the source for all new arrivals' equipment for all time, but "advanced" players continue to wipe out everything in sight simply because we can, how are newcomers going to get their gear from level 1 monsters?

Yes, I know people are going to have many ideas about those newcomers getting gear from other players, Companies, Settlements, and such, but if the level 1 monsters are *intended* to provide that gear, how are they expected to do so?

Newcomers cannot get starter gear from other players if they cannot make any money in the game.

Only having low level monsters provide gear seams like an error to me. It will do exactly as you say, keeping higher level players around farming them.

If all monsters have some form a drop, players will spread out.

The market for basic equipment will saturate either way.


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"Newcomers cannot get starter gear from other players if they cannot make any money in the game.

Only having low level monsters provide gear seams like an error to me. It will do exactly as you say, keeping higher level players around farming them."

--

Hence my suggestion post about having most mobs more frequently drop some sort of salvagable component for crafting that can be traded to crafters to make equipment in return.

Provides a reward for PvE, but also a not oversaturating input into crafting materials.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
KarlBob wrote:

During the first couple of weeks of EE, will Level 1 enemies be the main source* of +0 gear? I seem to recall a developer statement that there might be some NPC vendors selling the most basic starter gear. Maybe that idea changed into the NPCs who give away short bows, wands, and foci.

*A lot of +0 gear requires higher crafter levels than we're likely to see right away.

The difficulty, if we're not likely to see NPC vendors for weapons, armour, and consumables, is exactly the same as the observation Lee made about us voraciously over-harvesting everything in sight beyond the bounds of all expectation: we're doing the same to monsters. If those level 1 monsters are supposed to be the source for all new arrivals' equipment for all time, but "advanced" players continue to wipe out everything in sight simply because we can, how are newcomers going to get their gear from level 1 monsters?

Yes, I know people are going to have many ideas about those newcomers getting gear from other players, Companies, Settlements, and such, but if the level 1 monsters are *intended* to provide that gear, how are they expected to do so?

Newcomers cannot get starter gear from other players if they cannot make any money in the game.

Only having low level monsters provide gear seams like an error to me. It will do exactly as you say, keeping higher level players around farming them.

If all monsters have some form a drop, players will spread out.

The market for basic equipment will saturate either way.

I agree with with you on this Xeen. Though, I would like to add, I haven't paid much attention to how "coin" works. Will (or do adventurers already) receive coin from monsters? Or do monsters only drop things like recipes (other than starter gear)?

Goblin Squad Member

As for coin, no clue really... We get copper coin that ends up in the crafting section of our inventory. No use for it, not even when a recipe calls for copper.

Goblin Squad Member

I suspect that inventory coin becomes spendable (and unlootable) when we deposit it in the bank.

Goblin Squad Member

I think many things will require coin: training, crafting, using the auction house, raising structures...

Goblin Squad Member

Well, without a monetary system all players are pretty much required to be a crafter. How can we buy goods from other players if there is no coin? Hehe.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Newcomers cannot get starter gear from other players if they cannot make any money in the game.

To modify your statement just a touch, remember there'll be plenty of individuals and groups both willing and eager to help out newcomers gratis. That said, there'll be plenty of those newcomers who'll insist on paying their own way, thus the conversation is both necessary and valuable.


Wurner wrote:
I think many things will require coin: training, crafting, using the auction house, raising structures...

Hmm. It's hard to say. The last one sounds like it may have potential, but until coin can get you something basic outside of the PC realm, I would prefer to barter straight out.

You'd *think* the auction house would be the ticket, but it may take a long time for that to get working. If you need x and have y, why sell y for coin if you don't know where to get x? And if you do, why not just trade?

Even stuff like repairs would be nice. I just think there needs to be a baseline coinsink, per se, before coins have value. Or wait a long time until the auction house establishes itself. But I still think people would be better to barter than trade for coin since coin has no 'true value' yet.

Goblin Squad Member

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Settlements need revenue. It is easier to tax coin than barter.

"John Barleycorn, I saw you barter that sow. The settlement needs a haunch to support our troops."

"But sirrah, this is a live pig: if you take a haunch it will be dead!"

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, John. Hold it out there... that's it."

Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:
Wurner wrote:
I think many things will require coin: training, crafting, using the auction house, raising structures...

Hmm. It's hard to say. The last one sounds like it may have potential, but until coin can get you something basic outside of the PC realm, I would prefer to barter straight out.

You'd *think* the auction house would be the ticket, but it may take a long time for that to get working. If you need x and have y, why sell y for coin if you don't know where to get x? And if you do, why not just trade?

Even stuff like repairs would be nice. I just think there needs to be a baseline coinsink, per se, before coins have value. Or wait a long time until the auction house establishes itself. But I still think people would be better to barter than trade for coin since coin has no 'true value' yet.

I meant that I think those activities might be future coin sinks. Training costing not only XP but also coin. Crafting costing not only resources but also coin etc. Coin drained from the game.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
KarlBob wrote:

During the first couple of weeks of EE, will Level 1 enemies be the main source* of +0 gear? I seem to recall a developer statement that there might be some NPC vendors selling the most basic starter gear. Maybe that idea changed into the NPCs who give away short bows, wands, and foci.

*A lot of +0 gear requires higher crafter levels than we're likely to see right away.

The difficulty, if we're not likely to see NPC vendors for weapons, armour, and consumables, is exactly the same as the observation Lee made about us voraciously over-harvesting everything in sight beyond the bounds of all expectation: we're doing the same to monsters. If those level 1 monsters are supposed to be the source for all new arrivals' equipment for all time, but "advanced" players continue to wipe out everything in sight simply because we can, how are newcomers going to get their gear from level 1 monsters?

Yes, I know people are going to have many ideas about those newcomers getting gear from other players, Companies, Settlements, and such, but if the level 1 monsters are *intended* to provide that gear, how are they expected to do so?

Are they really surprised by the amount of harvesting we're doing? That seems odd to me.

Right now, we can fight in PvE, harvest, and try to make things (if we've found a wide enough variety of harvested things). With harvesting being one of the three major things we can do, we're all (okay, maybe most, rather than all) harvesting. Why not?

If we want gear, we need to provide the crafters with materials, so we harvest. (We can also train, but points can be spent as fast as we earn them. While we wait for xp to replenish, we fight in PvE and harvest.)

PvE is burning up gear faster than some people can find replacement armor and weapons, so they're probably harvesting for materials to trade to any crafters who manage to make gear.

Edit: We could also PVP, but that ruins your reputation score, and without player looting, it doesn't benefit the attacker. It's just EVE-style tear harvesting and practice for later, when there will be something to fight over.

Goblin Squad Member

Well when my little group switched from walking/running past goblins and recruits and omega wolves to seek out higher level pickings (hoping higher levels meant bigger drops) to targeting them instead we finally after 3 days got some basic gear.

Interestingly though no longbows or longswords yesterday.


Wurner wrote:
celestialiar wrote:
Wurner wrote:
I think many things will require coin: training, crafting, using the auction house, raising structures...

Hmm. It's hard to say. The last one sounds like it may have potential, but until coin can get you something basic outside of the PC realm, I would prefer to barter straight out.

You'd *think* the auction house would be the ticket, but it may take a long time for that to get working. If you need x and have y, why sell y for coin if you don't know where to get x? And if you do, why not just trade?

Even stuff like repairs would be nice. I just think there needs to be a baseline coinsink, per se, before coins have value. Or wait a long time until the auction house establishes itself. But I still think people would be better to barter than trade for coin since coin has no 'true value' yet.

I meant that I think those activities might be future coin sinks. Training costing not only XP but also coin. Crafting costing not only resources but also coin etc. Coin drained from the game.

I hope so, if you're saying it'll be a game system to require them.


This is close to hearsay, but I do recall someone saying that the devs mentioned that Stephen or Lee or whoever is going to move some of the recipes around so they are accessible sooner. The classic example of this is Coarse Padding, which currently requires Level 7 weaver- or two weeks worth of exp. That will be moved to a lower crafting level. I believe Weak Varnish (currently level 5 Alchemy) is also set to be moved lower. This should relieve some of the tension after the first few days and hep to get resources and the economy moving sooner.

Also, hopefully everything I just said is true and not me perpetuating rumors from in game.

Goblin Squad Member

One can hope.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:

This is close to hearsay, but I do recall someone saying that the devs mentioned that Stephen or Lee or whoever is going to move some of the recipes around so they are accessible sooner. The classic example of this is Coarse Padding, which currently requires Level 7 weaver- or two weeks worth of exp. That will be moved to a lower crafting level. I believe Weak Varnish (currently level 5 Alchemy) is also set to be moved lower. This should relieve some of the tension after the first few days and hep to get resources and the economy moving sooner.

Also, hopefully everything I just said is true and not me perpetuating rumors from in game.

I really do hope so. Right now looking over materials needed to craft armor, I saw that to make basic metal armor required lvl3 smelter, where leather required lvl7 weaver. A bit out of balanced there. Also, having to spend XP other places to get the crafting points to advance wastes XP. Some of this was due to the recipe bug, but not sure if all of it was.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree, those need to be moved. We should be able to make the basic equipment fairly early in the game... in fact in the first couple days in my mind

Goblinworks Executive Founder

When the leatherworker and tailor items get fully implemented and they have something useful to make right off, I think the concerns about padding will fade.


DeciusBrutus wrote:
When the leatherworker and tailor items get fully implemented and they have something useful to make right off, I think the concerns about padding will fade.

What items are u talking about? Footpad leather is level 1 for LW 2 but u need a level 7 weaver to make padding for it.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gloves, sandals, and other non-armor items.


DeciusBrutus wrote:
Gloves, sandals, and other non-armor items.

Do these benefut from the keywords like armor feats snd attack feats do with their designated equipment types then?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Apparently; but they affect the utility feats rather than attacks.


I will have to look ip some of the utility feats then.

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