Tacticslion |
I would like to propose a concept: two highly defensive-focused builds. One psion, one wizard, both 3.5, both with only the most basic rules (Player's Handbook, and Expanded Psionics Handbook*).
This proposition is not to be the sole activity of this thread (in fact, it shouldn't be), but rather an offer to allow people to make their arguments with builds.
If you participate, please put forth a good-faith effort to demonstrate why the build holds true in general principles rather than the specific build. In other words, "this is true in more than one corner case" type things.
Multi-classing is allowed, and they do not need to be optimized, so long as you're working to get a solid build out of the whole thing, and are predominantly a solid caster.
We can then compare them to the monsters in the monster manual.
I am going to opt out of doing this myself, as I get bored and distracted easy (Attention Deficit), but many enjoy building such things, so I'm offering this as a proposition.
the basic idea:
- AC compared to AC
- general defense compared to general defense
- special niche builds
Other considerations with each comparison build
- what can the caster or manifester do after they're solidly protected?
- action economy and viability during a typical adventuring day?
- how does this impact a team's abilities in general?
- how flexible are they for non-combat encounters?
Bear in mind that any considerations need to be made and explained in your builds.
MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL: You also need to apply an even amount of system mastery to each build.
Participation in this exercise is strictly optional, naturally, but realize that, if you do so, your build can (and will) be critiqued (or possibly criticized) by those who disagree with your choices. Please be ready to defend them, accept the challenger as correct, or explain why you chose a different route than the most optimal (i.e. "I was comparing these two aspects together, rather than the most optimal method of self-defense").
While I have specified defensive builds, I do not do so in order to limit the comparative builds here, but rather to offer some minimum coherence for how to go about things.
I would not mind seeing other builds - blasters, controllers, manipulators, socialites, minion-masters (whether mind-control or conjuring), creatives, and so on.
A reminder - the point of such exercises is not to show that a given system can be broken - of course it can be - but to show the relative balance (or lack thereof) with the two systems, and how they interact and handle themselves.
When discussing builds, it may be polite to place said discussions behind spoiler tags so those not interested in the specific arguments or discussions can skip them.
For example,
Obviously, no one is bound to these rules - they are there almost entirely for the benefit of the thread in an optional participation for those who are interested. But it seems like a good place to have common ground to talk about things.
Thank you!
* For those who are new, let me explain the name very briefly: it's very badly named. The "Expanded" was added to separate it as a 3.5 product that, hypothetically, built off of the groundwork for the 3rd Edition produce (appropriately titled "Psionics Handbook"). It is not, actually, an expansion of that product, so much as a complete reworking. Whereas the original 3rd Edition Psionics Handbook utilized a hardcoded rules system called psionic attack modes and psionic defense modes, and utilized a number of game-distorting effects, the 3.5 "Expanded Psionics Handbook" removed all of the excess rules introduced in the 3rd Edition one save the utilization of power points, re-balanced all of the classes around a moderate line, introduced the concept of Augmentation (or at least implemented it) for powers - the 3rd Edition system used the exact "tiered spell" structure from wizard spells, such as charm person and charm monster -, and was generally superior in every way, while maintaining only the barest of elements similar to the 3rd Edition one (i.e. power points and some nomenclature).
Tacticslion |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
WHEN DEALING WITH ASSERTIONS
In any thread where a hotly debated topic exists, there are going to be opinions that are strongly stated in various amounts of firmness. Sometimes these opinions will look like they are being stated as fact. Sometimes those stating the opinions believe that they are, actually, fact (and hence have formed said opinion). Some, on the other hand, are natural Internet Forum Discussion hyperbole.
I would suggest and request that, when discussing such matters, we assert what we are certain of, but being open to the idea that our "fact" (whichever side we are on) may well turn out to be opinion - easier said than done, I know.
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For general discussion and argumentation, or for any concept that requires assistance, requests for aid, or anecdotal evidence (which, in the end, is anecdotal, but must be considered in things like this, as, ultimately, this is about a system who's value lies in how it plays out) it is important to clarify differences from the normal presumptions of the game system in general.
- PLEASE BE AWARE -
Having differences from the normal presumptions of the game system in general is not, inherently, a bad thing, nor does it mean you're playing the game wrong. Instead it means that you need to understand that, yes, the system functions differently for you than it does from others, and here's why. Thus arguments made (ranging from "wizards are more powerful than psions!" to "psions are more powerful than wizards!") do, to some extent, depend on your table variation. This is a perfectly fine thing, but it's important to know when discussing things.
It may be that you're not sure where your group differs from the baseline presumptions of the game, or are only aware of some elements. That's fine too - you are not excluded from the conversation because of it. Instead, we will, together, see how that works out in action.
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In any event, it's important that this thread remain as civil in discourse as possible. If an idea is debunked, you may certainly say so, and explain how it is debunked, however it would be appreciated if, in general, lots of people don't continually chime in with "THAT'S DEBUNKED!" because, at that point, conversation shuts down and little is learned or accomplished.
If, in the debunking, a particular aspect was missed, by all means, feel free to add in that aspect.
Similarly, if nothing but agreement is intended, it might be more productive to favorite a post, or make a short post akin to, "in general, I agree with <post here>, for <reasons>." or (hard as this is for me, personally), remain silent.
ONE OTHER THING THAT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE:
Although it feels like it at times, those who agree with each other on a given issue are, in fact, not a collective, but rather a loose group of individuals who... agree with each other on a given issue. This note applies to those who agree with each other on an issue as much as to those who do not agree with that "group apparent".
Due to this, it is important that you, whoever you are, and wherever you reside on the agreement/disagreement spectrum maintain at least some level of autonomy for the purpose of disagreeing with another poster you otherwise might tend to agree with.
As an example, I tend to love Ashiel's and Sslarn's posts and respect them as posters, however I've disagreed with them on a number of assertions or ideas expressed in the past. Names cited for being the most in-depth detailed not-me posters in this thread to date.
In this regard, if someone you otherwise agree with makes a statement, assertion, or presumption that you do not agree with, please do not hesitate to repudiate, refine, or suggest an alternate explanation or idea. Of course, such response is generally preferred to be polite, friendly, or acknowledging of the things gotten correct (ex: "I agreed with everything in the post, but <X>, and here's why...") for the purpose of clear and open communication.
The above actions all work toward a singular goal: that of increasing general knowledge or awareness, and avoiding the appearance or sensation of a (colloquially) "dogpiling" on anyone.
Thank you all for participating in this thread, and I want us to continue to clarify and examine various ideas and relative powers in an open, welcoming manner!
Tacticslion |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, and yet one other thing (well, one thing I've already covered, but it is something that bears repeating and reiterating in a different manner).
Citing specific cases and games is not only allowed, but encouraged. This is for 3.5, but, since it's meant to be a learning tool (and besides, many are engaged in 3.5 games at present), stories and "here's how it happened in my game" are entirely necessary for any sort of dialogue to happen at all.
Please be open to "the wizard doesn't work like that" or "that's not something that can be done by a wilder of his level" or "uh... what?" because that'll likely happen.
In this way we learn what happened in specific situations, but also we can internalize the ideas behind the failures and apply those important lessons to future situations, whether we alter our play style or not.
Thanks!
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're such a champ TL. For real. I will try to take time to post up a couple builds, but it might take me a bit as I'll actually have to pull out my 3.5 books and ensure I'm only drawing from PHB and EP.
My personal suggestions for builds that would create the most apt comparisons:
Sorcerer v. Psion
Ranger v. Psychic Warrior
Monk v. Soulknife
I'd thought about saying Wizard/Psion and Wilder/Sorcerer, but realistically, that's going to create a pretty big swath of unnecessary arguments, like the value of prepared casting vs. spontaneous, and it's also going to low-ball psionics because Sorcerer is going to make the Wilder look pretty bad (because the 3.5 Wilder really isn't great).
Psion and Sorcerer have similar numbers of powers/spells known and both use a spontaneous casting mechanic, so they should make for a good side-by-side.
Ranger and Psychic Warrior are both melee secondary casters with a few specialized abilities, so they should provide a solid comparison as well, and monk and soulknife also occupy similar niches and have similar strengths and weaknesses.
Some other rules to make accurate comparisons that generate good discussion:
1) Keep the builds as similar as possible. If you want to compare Joe the Psion to Suzy the Wizard, it's helpful to make sure that they use the same point buy, same WBL, preferably the same race, etc. If Joe takes a bunch of metapsionic feats, Suzy should probably be roughly equally focused on metamagic. If Joe's specialty is metapsionics and Suzy's is crafting, there are so many variables it's hard to make a fair comparison. You want to try and limit variables so it's easy to point at the perceived problem mechanic and then step back and make an accurate evaluation.
2)If you're comparing multi-class builds, they should be similar blends. Comparing a gish to a theurge is like debating the merits of eating fish vs. riding a bike.
Part of the issue in these discussions, as Tacticslion elaborated on more fully and much more verbosely, is that the breadth of ways one experiences the game is vast; most people play the game a little differently with every new adventure as their knowledge and experience grows. That's why it's good to make a solid, apples to apples comparison; pick two like points on each side and then set those against the same challenge to derive your total comparative effectiveness.
I do disagree a little with TL about the value of past experience in the discussion; experience has been colored by the perception of the moment and is going to seem either more severe, or more appealing depending on the nature of the experience. If Joe the Psion did something and everyone at the table was all "Holy shit, Joe's broken as hell!" then that's going to be a major point of the memory and will color the experience. The point I'm getting at is: if the experience being relayed is "Joe used this one power and it obliterated the BBEG who was some kind of outsider I think" that brings no value to the conversation. However, if the anecdotal evidence is "I distinctly recall Joe once used a fully augmented energy sphere to deal 1,000 points of damage to an ancient red dragon" then that experience brings value to the conversation. We can derive from that both the power used and the challenge it was used against and determine if the effect was truly possible, what its odds of success were, and whether a comparative technique could have been used by a similar character drawing on a different power source.
Speaking of power sources, it might not hurt to do a little comparing to divine characters as well. As I recall, my clerics were almost always the most dangerous members of any group I was in, with the highest durability, near equal damage and debuff facility, and they could cast in heavy armor with no spell failure :P
DrDeth |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It does really break down ino:
I love Point based Psionics and it's not Overpowered or broken at all!
vs
I hate Point based Psionics as it's Overpowered and broken!
Now, I don't like psionics but I am basing my dislike upon AD&D psionics where it WAS Hwayyy Overpowered and broken. (we can all agree? Ten attacks a round?)
And one 3.0 game where the one Psion took a half-hour for each of his turns, was unkillable due to some crystal which absorbed about four times his HP in damage and could & did burn thru all his PP in a single encounter (and of course dominating that encounter), then demand we all return home and rest. (Sslarn's "Joe the Psion")
I admit I am biased, and my experience is not current.
“We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it and stop there lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove lid again and that is well but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore.” Mark Twain.
meaow.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, damn everything. There are few things as annoying as typing up a long post and then having the whole thing be eaten by the internet. It summed up to "Nice quote DD, AD&D psionics really were a mess, here's my long anecdote about why psionics have been such a great addition to our games in both 3.5 and PF".
Nathanael Love |
If I thought your opinion could be budged that might have meaning.
If one person could demonstrate to me that the novas actually aren't a problem without using the simulacrum boogey man or simply claiming that all hit points damage is irrelevant my opinion could be budged.
But all you do is tell me I play the game wrong, bring up spells that already have literal thousands of posts going into how they are exploits, and change the topic instead of at all addressing it.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TriOmegaZero wrote:If I thought your opinion could be budged that might have meaning.If one person could demonstrate to me that eh novas actually aren't a problem without using the simulacrum boogey man or simply claiming that all hit points damage is irrelevant my opinion could be budged.
But all you do is tell me I play the game wrong, bring up spells that already have literal thousands of posts going into how they are exploits, and change the topic instead of at all addressing it.
No one has changed the topic but you haven't given us anything to respond to other than an unsupported thesis statement. There's also been dozens of spells referenced and yet your response has been to lock onto one or two, casually dismiss others, etc.
Here's your burden of proof: provide a specific instance of a power you believe to be a problem, and a scenario where nova'ing is more easily accomplished by the psion. F%!% simulacrum and explosive runes, they're far from the only options out there.
"Nova'ing is a problem" is not a statement you can get meaningful discourse out of. It is, in fact, a statement that does absolutely nothing other than let us know what your position is on people who nova. Try instead to offer something like "A psion can take his first level energy ray, augment it up to 20d6, and then blow his focus to quicken it and manifest again for 40d6 in one round! Do you really think that's not broken?" And then we can discuss whether it is or isn't and why, and whether or not there are any mechanical issues with technique that are maybe happening because of a rule that's being missed.
Nathanael Love |
A Psion can cast 24 equivalent 9th level spells.
A wizard can cast at most 6th equivalent 9th level spells.
This is a problem and is not fair.
From the 7th round of combat in a day through the 24th round of combat in a day a Psion is casting a more powerful option.
That's the problem. That's the thesis. That's all there needs to be to it. Its not fair for Psions to get to cast so many more (18!) 9th level spells than the Wizard.
Don't bring up free scaling and don't make the claim all Psion powers are simply weaker-- those aren't valid claims because they don't actually relate to the power relative to 9th level powers versus 9th level spells-- they are basically equivalent.
Jeraa |
Psionic novas are more powerful than their magical counterparts. Thats not because psionics is overpowered, its because damaging dealing spells are seriously underpowered.
Really. 1st edition had capped hit dice (around 10th level) and uncapped spell damage.
2nd edition capped spell damage, but otherwise left the spells unchanged. Hit points remained unchanged.
3rd edition removed the cap on hit dice, made bonus hit points from constitution much easier to get. This made HP levels explode. However, spells remained unchanged.
3.x blasting spells were primarily made for a rules set where hit dice and hit points were much, much lower. When those values were raised for a new edition (3rd) and the damage stayed the same, problems arose.
Psionics, however, was written for 3.X and its higher hit point level. As such, its damaging spells deal more hit point damage.
Aratrok |
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Yes, Nathanael. We are aware that that's your thesis. Now you need to support that thesis, because you haven't posted any evidence to suggest that it's true or relevant.
And as a correction, a Psion can cast 24 equivalent caster level 20 spells. An energy ray augmented to 20 pp is emphatically not as strong as a 9th level spell, though you'd suggest that it is with the bare bones of your thesis.
Also hell yes we'll bring up free scaling and the relative power of accessible spells/powers. It's very important to know exactly what those spells/powers are doing, not just what their level is. Otherwise you end up claiming silly things like 'witches are just as good at casting as wizards, they have the same number of spells and they're all arcane', when their spell list is demonstrably weaker than a wizard's.
wraithstrike |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is not a new topic. There was a time when psionics was hot button topic here, just like paladins and psionics are. I really doubt anyone can raise any points not brought up in the past.
Here is something written that can save people a lot of trouble.
Nathanael Love |
Yes, Nathanael. We are aware that that's your thesis. Now you need to support that thesis, because you haven't posted any evidence to suggest that it's true or relevant.
And as a correction, a Psion can cast 24 equivalent caster level 20 spells. An energy ray augmented to 20 pp is emphatically not as strong as a 9th level spell, though you'd suggest that it is with the bare bones of your thesis.
Are you kidding me>?
Look at the power point totals of 20th level Psion. Now look at the Wizrd chart.
It's clearly a FACT that Psion can cast 24 9th level spells per day and clearly a FACT that a Wizard gets 6 (if he is specialized).
I don't need to support "evidence" of this-- its right there on the class charts.
Aratrok |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No. I'm not kidding you. Because the wizard is doing mostly the same things with their 6th-9th level spells that a psion is throwing out for 20pp. Augmenting something with power points boosts its effective caster level as far as delivering effects- it does not impact its relative spell level.
A 17 pp energy ray is not the same effectiveness as a time stop no matter how much you claim that that's true.
Nathanael Love |
Psions have 9th level powers as well. A 20 PP power is equivalent to a 9th level spell.
Unless you are really claiming they don't? But I see 9th level powers? I see Microcosm and Reality Revision and Timeless Body in there?
And for it to truly be fair for a Psion to get four times as many as a Wizard (24 versus 6) then spells would need to be three times as powerful as the same level Psionics, which they clearly not not.
wraithstrike |
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And as for the all day nova it is only a problem for GM's whose world's revolve around the character and allow them to use the "I nova, I rest" pattern. But in that game the sorcerer or wizard can nova also once the players figure out the GM lets them "auto replenish" their resources.
If you sleep in the dungeon while monsters are still there don't be surprised when the monster break the door down to attack the party.
Psion: I don't have any power points.
GM: The monsters don't care. They actually prefer it that way.
Psion: <hides in the back plinking away with his crossbow>
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Not a secret--->Psions have traditionally been better blasters than wizards, but a wizard has many more options, and the spell version is often better than augmented power version pushed to the equivalent of a 9th level spell.
In either case a psion, sorcerer, or wizard can be useful, and any of them in 3.5 can cause a GM problems, but the wizard is still at the top of the mountain in 3.5, if you optimize it. Otherwise its ability to have a variety of spells that solve multiple problems is not matched either, and you don't need Schrodinger's wizard to do it because in a real game the "perfect spell" need not be memorized.
You only need a spell than can work.
Disintegrate as an example is often used to attack people, but it can also clear dungeon walls, and summon monster ___ can bring in an outsider that has spells that you do not, such as heal, even though it is primary designed to be an attack spell.
wraithstrike |
A Psion can cast 24 equivalent 9th level spells.
A wizard can cast at most 6th equivalent 9th level spells.
This is a problem and is not fair.
From the 7th round of combat in a day through the 24th round of combat in a day a Psion is casting a more powerful option.
That's the problem. That's the thesis. That's all there needs to be to it. Its not fair for Psions to get to cast so many more (18!) 9th level spells than the Wizard.
Don't bring up free scaling and don't make the claim all Psion powers are simply weaker-- those aren't valid claims because they don't actually relate to the power relative to 9th level powers versus 9th level spells-- they are basically equivalent.
Casting more 9th level spells when they come on line is only one measure of power. As the wizard's spell book has shown versus the sorcerers, having access to more spells is more powerful than being able to cast more times per day. Unless you are going to argue that sorcerers are better than wizards.
Are you?
Squirrel_Dude |
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Whatever, you guys win. Simulacrum and garbage with explosive runes trumps every argument.
Hasn't budged my opinion of Psionics and has only made me more certain that anyone trying to use them are just trying to exploit.
So, to try and keep posters on the pro-psionics are balanced (can we just call it "more balanced than the normal magic system" already?) side from devolving into the same tactics that Nathanael Love is being accused of, I'll go ahead and ask some questions that he clearly has, and see if I can get some answers.
1. Why is novaing an unsustainable tactic?
2, Why wouldn't being able to throw out 24 9th level powers be overpowered? Even if it is weakening you for the rest of the day, isn't that still an absurd amount of power to throw out?
3. What are the broken tricks in 3.5 psionics?
Please answer questions without delving into claims that evocation/blasting is doing it wrong.
Aratrok |
They have six of them. Ever. If they spend all of their powers known from 17th to 20th level on 9th level powers. These are:
Affinity Field: Effects that affect you also affect others.
Apopsi (XP): You delete target’s psionic powers.
Assimilate: Incorporate creature into your own body (melee touch attack for damage).
Etherealness, Psionic: Become ethereal for 1 min./level.
Microcosm: Creature or creature lives forevermore in world of his own imagination (Recover-able power word kill).
Reality Revision (XP): As bend reality, but fewer limits. (A wish equivalent, has dramatic XP costs as wish does)
Timeless Body: Ignore all harmful, and helpful, effects for 1 round.
Plus one from this list (Time Regression/Teleportation Circle, Genesis/True Creation, and Mind Switch, True/Psychic Chirurgery being exceptional as pairs that come together):
Metamorphosis, Greater (XP): Assume shape of any nonunique creature or object each round.
Tornado Blast: Vortex of air subjects your foes to 17d6 damage and moves them (a decent blast).
Teleportation Circle, Psionic: Circle teleports any creatures inside to designated spot.
Time Regression (XP): Relive the last round (burn a standard action to tell people to do different stuff on their last turn).
Metafaculty (XP): You learn details about any one creature.
Genesis (XP): You instigate a new demiplane on the Astral Plane.
True Creation (XP): As psionic major creation, except items are completely real.
Mind Switch, True (XP): A permanent brain swap.
Psychic Chirurgery (XP): You repair psychic damage or impart knowledge of new powers.
Do you notice anything about these lists (which you must have been aware of, otherwise you wouldn't be engaging in this conversation)? The only one that you'd conceivably spam in a single fight is tornado blast, and it's a blasting power and therefore extremely underwhelming compared to what you'd expect a wizard to be doing with their actions. Psionics intentionally has very few extremely powerful combat spells at high levels, and most of the ones that do exist (Greater Metamorphosis, Reality Revision) have heavy experience costs associated with them.
Nathanael Love |
What exactly do you expect a Wizard to be doing that its so "underwhelming" against?
Time stop and cast three low level buffs? That's your play?
People keep saying the Wizard option is so much more powerful, so what is it?
(And Simulacrum is not the answer-- its gone for this discussion)
Also-- you left of the ones from Complete Psionic including Urge Extermination which is a more powerful version of Power Word Death-- that's right a Psionic power that's straight up better than its 9th level Wizard equivalent.
wraithstrike |
Psions have 9th level powers as well. A 20 PP power is equivalent to a 9th level spell.
Unless you are really claiming they don't? But I see 9th level powers? I see Microcosm and Reality Revision and Timeless Body in there?
And for it to truly be fair for a Psion to get four times as many as a Wizard (24 versus 6) then spells would need to be three times as powerful as the same level Psionics, which they clearly not not.
Timeless body last one round and it cost one standard action. It basically keeps you safe for one round. I don't even know if that is worth a 9th level slot. Well, I guess you could quicken a power and then use it(timeless body).
The problems here are that enemies can start to ready actions to disrupt it, and also that you can be more useful with two powers used instead of using one for offense and one for defense.
Microcosm has a hit point limit that is so low the next full attack from any martials on your team would have killed it anyway. In addition it is a will save which many high level monsters laugh at, or they are flat out immune to.
If you are using it on a group of monsters an AoE could kill them all.
Why are you taking this power again?
Reality Revision is pretty nice, but it cost 5000 XP per use, which is the same as wish, the arcane equivalent.
wraithstrike |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nathanael Love wrote:Whatever, you guys win. Simulacrum and garbage with explosive runes trumps every argument.
Hasn't budged my opinion of Psionics and has only made me more certain that anyone trying to use them are just trying to exploit.
So, to try and keep posters on the pro-psionics are balanced (can we just call it "more balanced than the normal magic system" already?) side from devolving into the same tactics that Nathanael Love is being accused of, I'll go ahead and ask some questions that he clearly has, and see if I can get some answers.
1. Why is novaing an unsustainable tactic?
2, Why wouldn't being able to throw out 24 9th level powers be overpowered? Even if it is weakening you for the rest of the day, isn't that still an absurd amount of power to throw out?
3. What are the broken tricks in 3.5 psionics?
Please answer questions without delving into claims that evocation/blasting is doing it wrong.
1 and 2 It really depends on how your group plays as to where or not it is sustainable. Now the game is set at 4 encounters a day, but in my experience higher level groups can take on more than 4 encounters a day. Also augmenting a spell by uses 20PP does not equate it to a 9th level power for purposes of effectiveness. You can make a power drop 20d6, but it is still not going to match some powers simply because damage is not the end all of everything. It is like saying a cleric who can cast 7 9th level spells has more high power value than a wizard casting 4 9th level spells.
3. There are the theoretical characters that should never see a table such as pun pun. IIRC he can be done with magic or psionics.
Other than similar rules exploits you might have to define "broken".
wraithstrike |
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What exactly do you expect a Wizard to be doing that its so "underwhelming" against?
Time stop and cast three low level buffs? That's your play?
People keep saying the Wizard option is so much more powerful, so what is it?
(And Simulacrum is not the answer-- its gone for this discussion)
Also-- you left of the ones from Complete Psionic including Urge Extermination which is a more powerful version of Power Word Death-- that's right a Psionic power that's straight up better than its 9th level Wizard equivalent.
Do you really want to use splat books while comparing magic to psionics? <---think carefully before you answer this
And with time stop wizards can gate in creatures that can defeat the entire party especially if they have boosted their caster level.
In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.XP Cost
1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).
That means creatures from the epic level handbook that can likely take on the entire party.
Dream Larva
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d8+390 (710 hp)
Initiative: +3 (Dex)
Speed: 80 ft.; fly 240 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 52 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +40 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+60
Attack: Bite +56 melee (4d8+16)
Full Attack: Bite +56 melee (4d8+16), 1 gore +51 melee (4d6+8), 4 pincers +53 melee (4d6+8), 4 claws +53 melee (4d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Worst nightmare, improved grab, sending, spell-like abilities, summon nightwalker
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, sonic immunity, regeneration 15, fast healing 15, SR 44, DR 15/good and epic or lawful and epic
Saves: Fort +31, Ref +25, Will +29
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 17, Con 29, Int 16, Wis 24, Cha 36
Skills: Concentration +52, Craft (dreamweaving) +46, Diplomacy +60, Escape Artist +46, Hide +46, Jump +36, Knowledge (arcana) +46, Listen +50, Move Silently +46, Search +46, Sense Motive +50, Spot +50
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (prismatic spray), Weapon Focus (pincers), Weapon Focus (gore), Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus (pincers), Epic Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, or solitary plus 1-4 nightwalkers
Challenge Rating: 31
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 41-65 HD (Large); 66-84 HD (Huge); 85-110 HD (Gargantuan)
It is not listed as a unique creature so it can be used.
Tacticslion |
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Psions have 9th level powers as well. A 20 PP power is equivalent to a 9th level spell.
This is only true insomuch as the given 20PP power is actually equivalent in power to a given 9th level spell... which isn't, actually, a given.
They are "equivalent" insomuch as most of them are considered to have "caster-level-like" effects based on a 20th caster level, (very) roughly equivalent power-tiers, and similar DCs.
They are equivalent in the same way that a 20th level sword-and-board fighter and a 20th level god-wizard are equivalent: vaguely, and only if you put them in certain situations that expressly favor the sword-and-board and not the wizard.
As a (very rough) example, if I apply Heighten Spell to magic missile, it doesn't matter how much I heighten it, the effect is never going to equal another ninth level spell, even if it's heightened to ninth level. This is due to the inherent weaknesses of the system that it uses for its free scaling (a system that actively favors it as a spell instead of a power).
This is what you seem to not be getting (or at least not acknowledging): augmentation, despite allowing more power to be pushed into a single effect than its base power, is not actually innately changing that power to an equivalent of ninth level spells. It can alter the power to a degree, but that degree is not nearly the amount that you seem to think it is.
Again: look at all the spells that you can get, for free, with just the summon monster line up. Holy. Crap. I can double my spells known, as a sorcerer, and have an exceedingly solid in-combat and out-of-combat utility as a sorcerer by spending nine of my limited spells known on that.
(Being neutral is a huge help with that.)
Gate is another prime example. There is nothing on the psionic spell lists that can equal that level of raw power.
The equivalent shapechange effect (an amazing spell, by the way) goes from something anyone of that level (except for a few who specialize away) can use to something only specialists can use, and, in addition, costs XP to use. Microcosm is strictly inferior to Imprisonment. Shades gives you every conjuration spell in the game of 8th level or lower, all prepared in a quantum state of readiness for no cost, though at a slightly inferior power. Both timeless body and time regression are strictly inferior to time stop and the latter can only be used by certain specialists. Genesis is a psionic power that doesn't exist in the player's handbook, so comparing the two of them the psion comes out ahead... but there is an arcane equivalent power, and it's more powerful than the psionic version. Etherealness is mostly the same, except the psionic ones explicitly state that everyone has to have linked hands, whereas the arcane one does not.
The big blasting power/spell comparison is tornado blast and meteor swarm.
At its base, tornado blast does 17d6 damage... compared to a meteor swarm's 24d6 damage (plus up to 8d6 additional bludgeoning damage) from the first moment you get it. At 20th level, tornado blast can still only deal 20d6 damage. Additionally, tornado blast is a single 40-ft. radius effect... while meteor swarm is four 40-ft. radius effects... which, while each effect is a fraction of the damage, allows you a tremendous number of larger options for where to place that damage.
Foresight v. Metafaculty allows... one ability that I would argue in psionics is more powerful than the arcane equivalent, which is good, because the arcane equivalent is a lower relative effect than the heroism spell we discussed up thread.
assimilate and affinity field have no arcane equivalent (in the player's handboook), but, then again, there are no direct psionic equivalents to:
- Freedom: Releases creature from imprisonment.
- Mage’s Disjunction: Dispels magic, disenchants magic items.
- Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.
- Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
- Teleportation Circle M: Circle teleports any creature inside to designated spot.
- Hold Monster, Mass: As hold monster, but all within 30 ft.
- Power Word Kill: Kills one creature with 100 hp or less.
evocation
- Crushing Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or crushes your foes.
- Weird: As phantasmal killer, but affects all within 30 ft.
necromancy
- Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
- Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
- Wail of the Banshee: Kills one creature/level.
Now, there may be augmented psionic equivalents - I'm not looking at all of their lists, just the one I posted earlier (the one that I'd forgotten my original purpose in doing so).
That is a lot of ground to cover.
Note that I left out several spells from the 9th level list that do have equivalents... but those equivalents are, in fact, usually^ less powerful.
20 pp psionic dominate is pretty cool... but no more inherently^ powerful than dominate monster (depending on your reading, see below)^, and, technically, slightly less versatile, as the latter doesn't actually care what the creature type is, while the former has a specific list that it effects (though the number of cases in which the latter's variability will come in handy are relatively rare). The psionic dominate does have the ability of controlling multiple creatures, however, which is not only very powerful, it can be considered "more than enough" to make up for that fact. Of course, it's still entirely negated by a first level power, still, and no matter how much it's augmented it will never overcome a different 4th level spell.
One thing I'm not sure of off the top of my head (as I have conflicting memories, and the rules don't specify one way or the other) is if, when augmenting, you gain all the benefits of augmenting to a certain cost, or only those chosen. I remember (in our games) using it as you gain all the benefits of augmentation, but, upon reading the power, I can see an argument being made that you only gain the benefit of what you augment for (so, in other words, you pay up to four to get all the creature types listed - i.e. "all the creature types listed above" - and additional targets, but the duration is still concentration... while the spell is strictly 1 day per level (making the dominate person spell superior in every way to the equivalent expenditure of a psionic dominate effect).
All of this indicates that the psionic equivalents are, in general, less powerful than the magical equivalents, and, those that aren't (or are definitively more powerful) are easily shut down by lower-grade^ magical effects.
EDIT: very, very ninja'd
^ EDITed in for clarity. It was an accidental omission. Some make quite a bit of difference in the meaning!
Aratrok |
I don't have Complete Psionic, and we've already declared we're working with core for both wizards and psions (Player's Handbook and Expanded Psionics Handbook, respectively) to keep things simple. If you want to outside of core there are a myriad of silly things you could find for wizards to do to bend the game over their knees, including lots of no-sacrifice PrCs (Abjurant Champion elves for an appetizer, anyone?).
You could cast a whole lot more with a time stop than a handful of buffs, especially since casters have metamagic rods and psionics has no equivalent option. Things that affect the battlefield or add more pieces to your side, like stinking cloud, wall of force, and summon monster. Or even having your last spell just be readying an action to throw something directly dangerous when your turn (and thus time stop) ends.
Aside, and for reference, there are 358 wizard spells in the Player's Handbook. There are 161 powers available to any psion, and each discipline gives them an extra 16 on average. Humorously, that puts them at 177 on an individual psion's power list, or just under half of what a wizard has access to. Except, you know, the wizard can totally change their loadout day to day while the psion is stuck with what they chose until they eat the experience loss of a psychic reformation.
Edit: You only gain the benefits of specific augments you invest in, Tacticslion, IIRC. Can't remember a specific rules citation, but there are plenty of augments that specifically mention that you gain the benefits of other augments, which suggests that you wouldn't have automatically gotten all of them to begin with.
wraithstrike |
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SRD wrote:The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.The way the interchange is written suggest that you can-- a Psion picks up a meta-magic rod and it reads the words spells and powers interchangeably.
If DSP has made a ruling to the otherwise that isn't really applicable based on the rules as written from the 3.5 books.
Interacting with a spell is NOT the same as interacting with a feat. PP's don't use slots so metamagic does not work with them. If that was the case psions would just use metamagic feats instead of the psionics version to avoid spending their psionic focus, which would also allow them to stack metamagic feats just like casters do. You have never seen it because in any optimization guides by anyone that knows the rules because is not possible.
What that quote means is that dispel magic also dispels psionics, and that if there was a psionic version of remove curse that it would remove a curse caused by magic.
wraithstrike |
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Dispel Magic-- invalidated by Greater Dispel Magic
Protection from Energy-- still invalidated by Energy Immunity
Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud-- same problems as Obscuring Mist above
Greater Magic Weapon-- still not worth casting; this spell exists only as a way to create permanent magic weapons
Fly-- if you can't cast it ahead of combat probably not worth casting
Invisibility sphere-- has uses, but I am not sure what its going to do to aid in fighting a 20th level foe
Ray of Exhaustion-- weak debuff typically not worth the action
Gaseous Form--can't take any relevant actions while under its effect
Heroism & Haste-- these spells don't give you the Wizard any real benefit; the Bard should be casting these as all they really do is buff the martials in your party; Heroism is so small that at 20th level its nearly insignificantLets put it this way. . . you are fighting a team of four pit fiends. If the spell isn't worth casting in that fight, its not significant at 20th level.
Are pit fiends the only CR 20 monsters worth fighting? Why do pit fiends alone get to decide spell value. As an alternate CR 24 encounter what if the monsters are 8 CR 18's? They would make for a tougher fight on average due to action economy.
Basically my point is that your method of assigning "what is worth casting" is borked. What is worth casting comes down to what situation you are in, and many spells are better cast before a fight. If you wait until you are in the fight to buff then you are not being efficient.
Haste as an example helps the wizard because it helps the martials kill things faster, and the faster things die, the less spells he has to use.
Now unless you are claimed upthread that you were only speaking of spells that directly disabled the enemy or buffed the caster doing the casting then you just play a very different game from everyone else. Actually even if you play that game then you still play a very different game because it means you don't see how the value of buff spells being precast actually helps you.
wraithstrike |
You know what after reading his other post on buffs and debuffs and the psionics rules I see this is a case of:
1. Him not knowing the psionic rules as well as he think he does.
2. He unlike most people I play with does not see the full value of buffs and debuffs due to his gaming style.
I am out for now. I will check in later to see if he refutes any of the earlier claims.
Ashiel |
I don't have a 3.5 psion built, but here is my "witch" Agatha who has been pushed to the hilt to be as effective as possible at what she does. She was built on standard 15 point buy and includes a +2 plot bonus to her Intelligence score from an event in Reign of Winter. She uses the dual-discipline archetype between shaper/egoist and the human favored class option which grants her more powers known (because spontaneous casters + more spells/powers is just better). She is stacked in magic items because she is an artisan (notice Craft Wondrous Item) and her Psicrystal is an artisan (because her psicrystal took the feat to get 2 traits, and one of those traits gives a scaling caster level, which she uses to pick up item creation feats). Further, she has three custom options above and beyond what's available in the core: a feat that allows her to stay shapeshifted for hours, a crystal power that functions similar to magic missile (throws xd4 crystals at up to 5 targets within 15 ft. of each other, medium range, SR: no) which she also crafted into a standard-action effect for a glove-slot item, and she has a psionic version of animate dead (imbue psivessels) which was written by my wonderful GM. :)
She is very flexible in how she approaches encounters and situations, but the vast majority of her resources have been invested into A) survival and B) efficiency. Despite the myriad of investments into her defenses, there have been situations where she was nearly killed/one-shot by energy damage and/or spellcasters and such in the game. She is a sort of a psi-tank though, which has saved her bacon on many occasions and she is the only original-PC to make it to this level from the group.
As far as her common tactics, she juices up on Inertial Armor and Greater Metamorphosis (and using a class feature to improve the benefits of greater metamorphosis by +50%, which nets her a solid natural armor bonus and then she gets her amulet on top of that), which are her staple survival buffs. In combat (due to its short duration) she usually begins with a vigor + expending her psionic focus to get temporary HP * 1.5 to give her a buffer to avoid getting one-shot by various HP-damaging spells and/or power words. She has a few utility powers like touchsight which is her short-range answer to invisibility and minor illusion tricks, slip the bonds (freedom of movement) because it's critical to surviving things like black tentacles or any beastie with a grapple modifier; fold space (dimension door) for similar reasons (mobility is a must for surviving); and power resistance is there if we're fighting lots of casters (I'd prefer spell immunity but psionicists don't get that) which gives her a chance against things like enervation bombs and/or flesh to stone.
She also has psionic revivify because when you spend so much effort trying to stay alive, it's a good thing if you can keep your party up too. Deadly fear (phantasmal killer) was taken because one of the players rolled an antipaladin in the service of Baba Yaga mid-way through the campaign and I picked it up because it should have had a lot of team synergy (but given that the player just could not grasp how to make use of the antipaladin's abilities in a tactical manner, not a single enemy ever died to this power Q_Q).
Her most common offensive options were ectoplasmic sheen (psionic grease) which she used to pester enemies, her crystal missile power (usually through her glove which dealt 5d4 damage pretty close to unavoidably), spitting acid globs with her psicrystal for 4d6 acid damage each (4d6 for her, 4d6 for the psicrystal), inflict pain (for debuffing), slumber (became fairly useless quickly, depsite augments I sadly admit), telekinetic force (telekinesis), dispel psionics (dispel magic), and wall of ectoplasm. In the right situations, I would also melee with her using natural attacks and certain combat forms, but she wasn't very good at that (it was going to be a high-level option when she fused with her mentor whose soul resided in her and became super-Agatha).
She's really good at not-dying and providing sustainable damage/support. In a few rare cases she spent a few rounds in some fights popping top-augment crystal missile, but it just isn't worth it for how fast it burns her out without enough of an effect, and was generally used for trying to nail the coffin shut on enemies who had already taken a savage beating (watching 1/14th of your power points vanish when the majority of them are already invested in defensive buffs made me worry far too often about running out of juice as I began getting low fast).
I've played wizards before and most of her cheesiest tricks are things that wizards do just fine. I might roll up an 11th level wizard for comparison, but it'll have to be when I have more time (I'm going to work soon). However, with the bonus item creation feats, familiar, pearls, scrolls, expanded spell list, more potent array of spells, and access to planar binding at this level, it would look much, much nastier. I had initially considered making Agatha a wizard or druid, but psion was more flexible in how I got to describe her magical tradition.
Ashiel |
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Something that occurred to me in the other thread while writing about various 3.x books, is that in general, 3.5 psionics also patched common abuses in the ruleset, many of which still exist right into Pathfinder.
For example, in 3.5 / Pathfinder, a wizard can craft a wand of mnemonic enhancemer and laugh their asses off at the very concept of limited spells per day, where they literally convert wand charges into more spell slots (which broken down into 50 charges self crafted gives them a cost of 70 gp per +1 spell level worth of preparation). So if a wizard really wanted to, he could burn the wand and prepare 150 additional spell levels for a 24 hour period.
The psionic equivalent, bestow power specifically cannot be made into a magic item, because the developers knew that players would use it to easily recharge. So they nipped that abuse in the bud, but it still exists in core magic right into Pathfinder.
Meanwhile, genesis had been printed in both the Manual of the Planes and the Epic Level Handbook with the abusive option to create your own plane with altered time, which allowed you to create planes with the timeless trait or super fast time, allowing you to go "Excuse me, I need a weels to make a few magic items, develop a new spell, rest and run a solo-session for my familiar", planeshift, 30 seconds later, "I'm back! Did you miss me!?"
In psionics, they nipped that junk in the bud. You are basically god of creating your plane, but you cannot make its time traits any different than the material plane's, which means you can't create a hyperbolic time chamber to rest and get weeks worth of work done in an instant.
Meanwhile, fast forward to Pathfinder and we get...
This spell functions as create demiplane, except the area is larger and you can add more features to the plane. You can use this spell to expand a demiplane you created with lesser create demiplane or create demiplane (you do not need to create an entirely new plane using this spell), in which case it has a duration of 1 day/level. Alternatively, when cast within your demiplane, you may add to your demiplane (or remove from it) one of the following features (or any of the features described in create demiplane) with each casting of the spell, in which case it has an instantaneous duration.
Energy: Your plane gains the (minor) negative- or positive- dominant energy trait. A plane cannot have both the negative-dominant and positive-dominant energy traits.
Magic: Your plane gains the dead magic, enhanced magic, impeded magic, or wild magic planar trait. If you selected dead magic, you are trapped within your plane unless it has a permanent planar portal (such as the portal feature, below). If you selected enhanced or impeded magic, choose one type of magic to be enhanced or impeded, such as “effects with the fire descriptor or that manipulate fire” or “death spells and spells from the Death or Repose domains.” A plane cannot be enhanced and impeded for the same kinds of spells.
Morphic: You may use move earth at will in your demiplane at one-tenth of the spell’s normal casting time, and can reshape normal plants in the same manner (such as by twisting trees into a fence or humanlike shapes). You are even able to affect rock formations with this ability, though the casting time for this is only half normal.
Portal: Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).
Time: By default, time passes at the normal rate in your demiplane. By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time, GameMastery Guide 185).
You can make this spell permanent with the permanency spell, at a cost of 22,500 gp. If you have cast create greater demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting’s area requires its own permanency spell.
Tels |
Something that occurred to me in the other thread while writing about various 3.x books, is that in general, 3.5 psionics also patched common abuses in the ruleset, many of which still exist right into Pathfinder.
For example, in 3.5 / Pathfinder, a wizard can craft a wand of mnemonic enhancemer and laugh their asses off at the very concept of limited spells per day, where they literally convert wand charges into more spell slots (which broken down into 50 charges self crafted gives them a cost of 70 gp per +1 spell level worth of preparation). So if a wizard really wanted to, he could burn the wand and prepare 150 additional spell levels for a 24 hour period.
The psionic equivalent, bestow power specifically cannot be made into a magic item, because the developers knew that players would use it to easily recharge. So they nipped that abuse in the bud, but it still exists in core magic right into Pathfinder.
Meanwhile, genesis had been printed in both the Manual of the Planes and the Epic Level Handbook with the abusive option to create your own plane with altered time, which allowed you to create planes with the timeless trait or super fast time, allowing you to go "Excuse me, I need a weels to make a few magic items, develop a new spell, rest and run a solo-session for my familiar", planeshift, 30 seconds later, "I'm back! Did you miss me!?"
In psionics, they nipped that junk in the bud. You are basically god of creating your plane, but you cannot make its time traits any different than the material plane's, which means you can't create a hyperbolic time chamber to rest and get weeks worth of work done in an instant.
Meanwhile, fast forward to Pathfinder and we get...
Create Demiplane, Greater wrote:This spell functions as create demiplane, except the area is larger and you can add more features to the plane. You can use this spell to expand a demiplane you created with lesser create demiplane or create demiplane (you do not need to create an...
Little note, Ashiel, that the Create Demiplane traits are not as good as the actual planar traits. Flowing Time only allows you to have up to half time on your plane. So every hour spent on the demiplane means a half hour on the material plane. It cuts crafting times in half, but it's not nearly as crazy as something like 1 day on the plane = 1 round.
Also, the Timeless trait is a retroactive one. If you spend 5 years on the plane, and never eat, when you return to the material, 5 years of not eating catches up with you... fast. Same thing for ageing.
A wand of mnemonic enhancer is... well interesting, but not all that powerful unless there is a lot of downtime. You cast a spell, then you have to spend 10 minutes casting mnemonic enhancer to recover it. Or you spend 10 minutes to re-prepare up to 3 spells.
Although Pathfinder did introduce a similar cheese with the spell channel the gift from Inner Sea Gods. It's a 3rd level spell that lets you cast the next spell of 3rd level or lower for free; bonus, you can use it on your allies too! Get a wand of that and use it to power all of your 1st - 3rd level utility spells and pre-combat buffs. Hell, if you can, get yourself an at-will magic item and just use that instead. Totally worth it.
Ashiel |
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*A good rebuttal*
I'm mostly getting at the fact you can manipulate the time trait at all, which you still can't do in psionics. :o
A wand of mnemonic enhancer is... well interesting, but not all that powerful unless there is a lot of downtime. You cast a spell, then you have to spend 10 minutes casting mnemonic enhancer to recover it. Or you spend 10 minutes to re-prepare up to 3 spells.
No-no, you're looking at the recall portion of the spell. I'm talking about this portion of the spell:
Casting this spell allows you to prepare additional spells or retain spells recently cast. Pick one of these two versions when the spell is cast.
Prepare: You prepare up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as 1/2 level for this purpose. You prepare and cast these spells normally.
Retain: You retain any spell of 3rd level or lower that you had cast up to 1 round before you started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to your mind.
In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast).
It would take you 8.3 hours to use every charge from a wand of mnemonic enhancer, allowing you to prepare 150 levels of extra spells. Upon casting the instantaneous spell you can prepare +3 levels worth of spells. You prepare and cast these spells normally. As in, you still have to prepare and cast them, which takes 1 hour or 15 minutes.
What Nathanael Love wants to talk about how many full-power powers that a psion can "nova" with? Take a wizard with a double-speed demiplane, a wand of mnemonic enhancer, and a will to use it, and you'll end up with a wizard who's got an extra 16 9th level spells and 1 extra 6th level spell, plus their entire retinue of normal spells, and it took them a total of about 8 hours in terms of material plane time to do it (4 hours of material plane time to rest, 4.45 more to mnemonic it up and prepare spells) and they've got another 15 hours of real-time to wreck somebody hard (because the rest period didn't count against the 24 hour fade duration since it came first).
A psion can go nova. A wizard big bangs.
Sebastrd |
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Are you kidding me>?
Look at the power point totals of 20th level Psion. Now look at the Wizrd chart.
It's clearly a FACT that Psion can cast 24 9th level spells per day and clearly a FACT that a Wizard gets 6 (if he is specialized).
I don't need to support "evidence" of this-- its right there on the class charts.
No one is arguing that a psion does not get enough PP to manifest 24 9th level powers or that a wizard can only cast 6 9th level spells. Your premises are true.
However, your conclusion that those facts mean the psion is more powerful does not necessarily follow. Yours is the literal definition of an "invalid argument".
You are completely disregarding all of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells a wizard can cast in addition to his 9th level spells. You have refused to acknowledge that those spells scale with wizard level, making them more useful than their spell level might imply. You also continue to ignore the flexibility advantage that a wizard enjoys - 6 9th level spells + myriad 1st-8th level spells versus 24 9th level powers.
Your argument, that a psion gets more 9th level powers and is thus superior, is oversimplifying the situation. By your logic, we could conclude that the wizard is clearly superior because he can cast more total spells than a psion can manifest powers. Or we could say the wizard is clearly superior because he has far more spell options than a psion has power options. Or the wizard is superior because none of his spells require expending a psionic focus. The situation is a whole lot more complicated than any of that.
Ashiel |
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Nathanael Love wrote:Are you kidding me>?
Look at the power point totals of 20th level Psion. Now look at the Wizrd chart.
It's clearly a FACT that Psion can cast 24 9th level spells per day and clearly a FACT that a Wizard gets 6 (if he is specialized).
I don't need to support "evidence" of this-- its right there on the class charts.
No one is arguing that a psion does not get enough PP to manifest 24 9th level powers or that a wizard can only cast 6 9th level spells. Your premises are true.
However, your conclusion that those facts mean the psion is more powerful does not necessarily follow. Yours is the literal definition of an "invalid argument".
You are completely disregarding all of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells a wizard can cast in addition to his 9th level spells. You have refused to acknowledge that those spells scale with wizard level, making them more useful than their spell level might imply. You also continue to ignore the flexibility advantage that a wizard enjoys - 6 9th level spells + myriad 1st-8th level spells versus 24 9th level powers.
Your argument, that a psion gets more 9th level powers and is thus superior, is oversimplifying the situation. By your logic, we could conclude that the wizard is clearly superior because he can cast more total spells than a psion can manifest powers. Or we could say the wizard is clearly superior because he has far more spell options than a psion has power options. Or the wizard is superior because none of his spells require expending a psionic focus. The situation is a whole lot more complicated than any of that.
+1 good sir.
Further, since Nathanael wants to talk about energy ray 20d6 = 9th level power, then we should also accept that any spell that scales up to 9th level equivalency is thus also a 9th level spell, yes? Goose and ganders and all that.
That means the 8th level spell polar ray is actually 10th level spell (19d6), 11th level spell (21d6), 12th level spell (23d6), and 13th level spell (25d6). The 7th level spell, delayed blast fireball is also a 9th (or 10th) level spell. The 6th level spell disintegrate is also a 9th (or 10th) level spell. Chain lightning? Also a 9th (or 10th) level spell...
And so on and so forth.
Hell, scorching ray is a 6th level spell on its own!
DrDeth |
And as for the all day nova it is only a problem for GM's whose world's revolve around the character and allow them to use the "I nova, I rest" pattern. But in that game the sorcerer or wizard can nova also once the players figure out the GM lets them "auto replenish" their resources.
Which brings in "Scry and Fry" or its reversal of "Fry and Fky" when you Nova then Tport out.
You are correct in that a good DM wont let PC get away with that indefinitely.
But if we're talking theorycraft, then indeed they can.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
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What would a "good DM" do? I can think of quite a few counters to scry & fry tactics, but most generally require that the big bad also be a big bad wizard (preferably a hermit too); unless I'm just word of godding it, and at that point I'm just admitting there's a problem.
I would imagine that even non-caster BBEGs are going to be paranoid enough when they hit a certain level to start lining the walls with lead and paying casters to ward the hell out of their lairs.
I also have a really entertaining Bravery feat I wrote for a Fighter BBEG that allows him to attack a square a caster has just teleported out of and leap through the weakened fabric of reality to chase down fleeing casters. Which is obviously not core or anything, but still fun and an example of the kind of stuff I wish we'd get for high level martials.