Realistic bandits in your setting


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Bandits, whenever I come across them they're either useless after a couple levels or you somehow have 8th level thieves sleeping in the woods like hobos and mugging farmers.
How do you keep bandits relevant as encounters while maintaining a sense of realism for the region they're in?
First, consider the region they are in. This is terrain as well as who they steal from normally. If their victims are normally farmers, they are not going to be prepared to face paladins, wizards and barbarians.

Mostly it's about having them make sense, really. Your normal everyday bandits aren't going to be a lvl 4 ranger, lvl 4 rogue hybrid. That would a group of elite bandits like Ali Baba's 40 thieves. Those 40 men could and would sack entire cities, but, those are the kind of guys who get a widespread reputation, they'd famous in the region, possibly the whole kingdom.
Another point, have bandits be smart, but don't go trying to outsmart the party. Sure the bandits could have a well setup ambush, tree across the road, archers on both sides, spearmen in the bushes. But are they really going to have a wizard with spells prepared specifically to counter the party's caster? That reeks of DM Metagame and isn't really fair to the party.


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It's a fantasy setting. Why won't someone who studied magic want to mug people? Studying magic allows you to tell reality to go screw itself. It's a shortcut to power. Banditry is (meant to be) a shortcut to money. I don't see these as mutually exclusive.


I think having a couple of bandits be 4th level isn't that unrealistic. The Guard Officer in the GameMastery guide is a 4th level fighter, so I'd expect some of the senior members of the bandit group have had a similar level of fighting experience.


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You don't keep bandits relevant. Realism doesn't fit into the game. Once you pass level 5 or so you have left the world of regular people behind. You stop worrying about things like regular bandits. The PCs should be cutting through them easily. That is the entire point of leveling up and gaining power. If everything around the PCs is doing the same, what is the point of leveling in the first place? You just get bigger numbers and new shinies, but in the end it doesn't matter as are still fighting the same opponents, who have received the same thing.

You could always throw in a few higher level bandits (Bandit Lords, captains, etc.). But the average bandit will cease to be a threat, the same way the average goblin stops being a threat.

Maybe a band of ogres (or suitable powerful monsters) come into the area and stomp the bandits out. Then the monsters are the ones doing the robbing.

Quote:
Another point, have bandits be smart, but don't go trying to outsmart the party. Sure the bandits could have a well setup ambush, tree across the road, archers on both sides, spearmen in the bushes. But are they really going to have a wizard with spells prepared specifically to counter the party's caster? That reeks of DM Metagame and isn't really fair to the party.

A random pack of bandits? Probably not. But if the PCs have been active in the area and dealt with the bandits several times before? Sure. It would make sense that an enemy you have fought several times before would start to adapt its fighting style to counter yours.


Oh I'm not saying they can't exist, just that, even if it never comes up, the DM should have a least a basic of why they're here, and what they normal fight.
If they normally fight guards, if they fight magic users. And I didn't mean to say bandits can't have magic. But, let's say the party wizard is a fan of Charm Person, turning enemies into allies. Why would the bandit wizard come prepared with lots of castings of Dispel? Do they normally face magic users that do this?

Mostly making sure that the bandits aren't made of DM Metagame cheese meant to specifically counter the party.
I like using archer bandits against the party wizard personally. :)


Jeraa wrote:

You don't keep bandits relevant. Realism doesn't fit into the game. Once you pass level 5 or so you have left the world of regular people behind. You stop worrying about things like regular bandits. The PCs should be cutting through them easily. That is the entire point of leveling up and gaining power. If everything around the PCs is doing the same, what is the point of leveling in the first place? You just get bigger numbers and new shinies, but in the end it doesn't matter as are still fighting the same opponents, who have received the same thing.

You could always throw in a few higher level bandits (Bandit Lords, captains, etc.). But the average bandit will cease to be a threat, the same way the average goblin stops being a threat.

Maybe a band of ogres (or suitable powerful monsters) come into the area and stomp the bandits out. Then the monsters are the ones doing the robbing.

Quote:
Another point, have bandits be smart, but don't go trying to outsmart the party. Sure the bandits could have a well setup ambush, tree across the road, archers on both sides, spearmen in the bushes. But are they really going to have a wizard with spells prepared specifically to counter the party's caster? That reeks of DM Metagame and isn't really fair to the party.
A random pack of bandits? Probably not. But if the PCs have been active in the area and dealt with the bandits several times before? Sure. It would make sense that an enemy you have fought several times before would start to adapt its fighting style to counter yours.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was saying


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You could also have a fairly standard pack of bandits (in the level 1-4 area) who are inspired to greater feats of prowess by a bard in their group who's perhaps a little higher level, or who has obtained some magic item that improves his abilities a bit.

Sometimes, just finding the right combination of buffs can make even low-level enemies relevant (to a degree). Plus, it can be satisfying for players to mow down a group of 20+ bad guys who are still somewhat dangerous (ie., they can land hits, can deal damage, but are going down quick due to mediocre/poor AC, and low HP).


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@yeti1069

Absolutely, by simply giving a few of them 1 level in a class they become a much larger threat. Maybe they've got two barbarians, a cleric for healing and buffs, and a sorcerer who loves burning hands and magic missile. Players faces are hilarious when the enemy they've been fighting starts healing or getting healed. "Only we get to do that!"


Actually, the whole concept of bandit tends to be kind of blurry. You've got your humanoid highwaymen - but many monsters behave in a similar manner. Trolls, ogres, dragons, giants and the like demanding tolls or taking the occasional farmer to eat. On the other hand, the soldiers of an evil warlord or noble may act in fairly similar manner - demanding money or goods from random passers by.

From a looting perspective, consider that even if travelers in a given location are almost always commoners with nothing but a goat or two to their name there STILL be may the occasional high value target that bandits might be waiting for. Some examples - tax collectors carrying the rent from an entire region, nobles and rich merchants who might be worth a decent sum of money in ransom, miners/mining caravans transporting valuable ores back to civilization from a far off mine, etc.


And this is why I put this in General Discussion, so we can all talk about the various definitions of "bandit", how we've used them, and would like to use them


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4th level isn't overly elite in my opinion. I was actually just writing up various types of criminal elements, and they cap out at either CR or level (can't remember) 9 in my game.

I see criminals/bandits of CR 1-3 as fairly basic, standard types who harass civilians and are mostly the lazy/quick cash kind of bandit most people think of.

4-6 would be where we start seeing career criminals, either leaders of large bands of the above, or groups of traveling marauders who know how to pick targets. They likely won't trouble themselves with some farmer hauling some vegetables around, but will chase down messengers/couriers or traveling aristocrats and the like. They generally have at least something of a plan, and aren't taking on targets of opportunity, but will have eyes and ears in local communities to help pick out the right people to squeeze.

For 7-9 we're talking men and women who see crime as a way of life and not just a means to an end. They have likely stolen enough to retire multiple times over, but either blow through it as fast as it comes in, or have no intent on retiring. They aren't just good at doing what they do, they genuinely enjoy doing it. These are the masterminds behind thieves guilds and the like, or at least the upper end of the ranking.


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I just scale my world differently. I say that most people are expected to have a few levels unless they are total amateurs. Professionals at the peak of their career are usually level 5, and the typical person can expect to reach level 5 in their life time.

Exceptional, people surpass level 5 in my games. It keeps everything much more relevant for far longer while providing a finer gradient to work with when distinguishing NPC's. Also, is nice because more levels equal more customization.

Back on topic, re-scaling the world's levels makes Bandits far more relevant.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RavenStarver wrote:

Bandits, whenever I come across them they're either useless after a couple levels or you somehow have 8th level thieves sleeping in the woods like hobos and mugging farmers.

How do you keep bandits relevant as encounters while maintaining a sense of realism for the region they're in?

Again, it's about how you play the game at various levels. You do fairly ordinary stuff at levels 1-6, Heroic at 6-12, and superheroic 12 and higher. Which means you don't try to have the same types of encounters for all three brackets.

Sovereign Court

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I think bandits tend to prey on people who are a lot less tougher than experienced PCs. When they see just how well-equipped the PCs are at level 2+, they'll probably just try to remain hidden in their ambush until the PCs are far away.

Now, it's entirely plausible that beleaguered villagers hire the PCs to deal with bandits, particularly if the local noble lacks the skilled woodsmen needed to track down those bandits. The hunter has become the hunted.

When bandits do strike, they're pretty brutal. Attacking in large numbers, employing flanking, focus fire and Precise Strike teamwork feats or Sneak Attack.

Also, clever ambushes. A few archers might lure the PCs into a trap; if the players see four archers they'll probably charge that, and end up surrounded by ten more bandits with melee weapons.

Also, snares and pit traps; tax collectors probably have an armed escort, but are worth robbing. Reflex-based traps are quite effective against big stupid fighter types.

Ultimately though, normal bandits are low-level opponents.

(I should mention though that I quite overwhelmed my party with level 1 rogues yesterday.)


One thing I always try to make a point of is that they rarely attack unless they really do think that they can win. Also, when the fight starts going badly, they'll flee or surrender.
Gives the party a bit of a dilemma, do they run them down? Are they taking these guys prisoner? Good for a morality bit.
Though my current group encountered this and just slaughtered anyone who had fought them, damn neutrals. :P


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How to have high level bandits ? Easy Couple of ways. After the English Civil war many Royalist officers took to banditry, as having fought for the losing side, they where outlaws with no legal way to make a living and became Highwaymen. Both Rob Roy and Jesse James are other examples of people who fought for the losing side and turned to banditry after their side lost.
Or some one could be outlawed for some other reason. A powerful Sorceress lover dies. Did she murder him as the local sheriff says or was it a tragic accident as she maintains. Either way she has turned to banditry to support herself.
Also many of the larger and more successful Bandit group work more by extortion then by mugging, setting up illegal toll booth and charging a fee to use their roads. perhaps the local merchants even support such a bandit group because they keep the roads safe while the local Lord is too much of a fop to do so. Might point out the Ming Dynasty of China started out as such a bandit group and grew large enough to rule all of China.
And of course there always Bandits as Nationlist /Freedom fighters/ oppressed minorities .


Degoon Squad wrote:

How to have high level bandits ? Easy Couple of ways. After the English Civil war many Royalist officers took to banditry, as having fought for the losing side, they where outlaws with no legal way to make a living and became Highwaymen. Both Rob Roy and Jesse James are other examples of people who fought for the losing side and turned to banditry after their side lost.

Or some one could be outlawed for some other reason. A powerful Sorceress lover dies. Did she murder him as the local sheriff says or was it a tragic accident as she maintains. Either way she has turned to banditry to support herself.
Also many of the larger and more successful Bandit group work more by extortion then by mugging, setting up illegal toll booth and charging a fee to use their roads. perhaps the local merchants even support such a bandit group because they keep the roads safe while the local Lord is too much of a fop to do so. Might point out the Ming Dynasty of China started out as such a bandit group and grew large enough to rule all of China.freedom fighters/ oppressed Minorities
And of course there always Bandits as Nationlist /Freedom fighters/ oppressed minorities .

All very valid points.

I like the idea of bandits stealing soldier uniforms and setting up a fake toll, leaves the players guessing.


Actually renegade soldiers would be a scary encounter, played well a unit of soldiers is a terrifying foe, and a little disconcerting to face.
Reading documents and diaries from the late Renaissance up to the American Revolution, soldiers were trained to stand and take the hits. One, and I don't remember were I read this, sorry, was a diary from a soldier. It said that they'd be marching forward, unable to see from the musket smoke, being splattered by the remains of your comrades as they were blown away by cannon and bullet, and the men kept marching forward.
That's just a scary image, these guys marching at you, stepping over the charred remains of their friend that the wizard just fried, uncaring of the arrows you shoot at them.

Silver Crusade

I approve of the above comments about how realistic bandits should run away! There's no easy loot in a fair, tough fight. Bandits prey on easy targets who can't fight back. It's not worth attacking heavily armed combatants who can fight back!

I recall one particular paizo adventure that involves a pack of level-appropriate bandits hiding in ambush on a dark trail at night. The PCs just happen to walk through their woodland ambush.

According to the published adventure the bandits were supposed to attack, then fight to the death. That struck me as stupid. Also, the bandits should have been in camp at night, not staking out a remote wilderness trail. This encounter was the perfect (bad) example of what the OP referred to.

I was GM, so I had the bandits see what was coming, scout the PCs, determine it was a heavily armed party with multiple spellcasters, and decide to flee before the PCs arrived. When the PCs reached the site of the ambush they detected various signs that it had been recently occupied.


Now I'm reminded of Slayers and how the bandits always start wetting themselves as soon as they figure out who the characters are.
Lina Inverse, the "Bandit Killer"

I wouldn't want to fight people who have a reputation for brutally slaughtering their foes.


Now, Pirates, that's an entirely different kettle of fish


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And who say bandits have to be the bad guys anyway.
We all I sure know of the Story of Robin Hood I bet. A good movie I a few years back was the the Bandit Queen, based on a real Indian woman.who when she went to the Police to report some high caste men where bothering her including grabbing her in public, was arrest and raped by the police and and when released became a bandit as revenge. She was later pardon and became a member of the Indian congress.
so you have a family kicked off the land they farmed for generations because the daughter refuses to become the mistress of the local Baron and turn to banditry to survive. How does your lawful Good players handle that?


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RavenStarver wrote:
Now, Pirates, that's an entirely different kettle of fish

here some unflattering facts about real pirates.

The favorite prey of real pirates during the height of Piracy between the 16-18 century were slave ships. Slaves where easy to sell,the buyers did not ask questions , and slave ship crew caught between a pirate ship and their cargo which might revolt any minute would always quickly surrender


RavenStarver wrote:


How do you keep bandits relevant as encounters while maintaining a sense of realism for the region they're in?

I really can't. One of the bits of my fantasy worlds is that people with PC levels are rare, and if you're unlikely to find any NPCs over 3rd level.

Besides, after 3rd or 4th level, the PCs typically have bigger fish to fry. It's a rare day when Superman or Green Lantern worry about muggers as their first priority, they let Batdouche deal with the punks.

Liberty's Edge

The bandit problem is partially a problem of the 3.x set of rules, they are slow in resolving figths with large numbers of enemies and make that kind of encounters (and most random encounters) pointless against the time spent to run them. For me that break immersion as the world seem devoid of non level appropriate threats.

I recall an encounter I GM in AD&D 1st edition.
The nation was in complete disarray after a disastrous war, the government had collapsed, local warlord ruled the territory. The PC (12th level, at a time a high level, roughly equivalent to level 16 in Pathfinder) were asked to help one of the surviving baronies.
While en route they encountered a troops of bandits, about 200 men strong (some were ex military, other people that had lost their homes and resorted to banditry and manslaughter to survive, in the scenario it was a credible encounter).
Seeing the 7-8 men player group, well armed and well dressed, the bandit commander decided that losing several men wasn't a good idea, even if it was "a assured victory" in his eyes, so he sent his lieutenant to ask for money for the "right to use the road" while his men encircled the party.
After the PC granted reply: "No, you pay us to continue living." the fight was very fast. A couple of fireball wiped out a lot of enemies (1st edition fireball had a fixed volume, so cast at the right height on open ground it did become a half sphere with a 30' radius, very nice).
The martials engaged the few guys that survived the fireballs, as they were clearly higher level characters.
Total rout of the bandits (some of them fired a few arrows, nothing more) time to run the encounter dialogs included: 10 minutes. Effects: a few almost meaningless resources spent, a fun encounter.

Try running the same thing in Pathfinder respecting the rules. How long it will last? Too much, so we avoid that kind of encounter.

We need some good mob rule to use this kind of encounters.


RavenStarver wrote:
Actually renegade soldiers would be a scary encounter, played well a unit of soldiers is a terrifying foe, and a little disconcerting to face.

I agree on that account. I've Always Been More Martial minded and prefer it to magic. I enjoy making martial foes the party remembers for a long time. I'm really looking forward to getting to run one of the most powerful Martial Characters in the Inner Sea as the BBEG IN Skulls and Shackles


RavenStarver wrote:

Now I'm reminded of Slayers and how the bandits always start wetting themselves as soon as they figure out who the characters are.

Lina Inverse, the "Bandit Killer"

I wouldn't want to fight people who have a reputation for brutally slaughtering their foes.

I was thinking about her and the way even dragons get nervous near her myself.

As for the question you have bandits like robin hood high level rebellious against an usurper to the crown but without the power to Doo more than help where he can. Then you've got ones like the bandits in Paksenarion who are highly skilled but only attacking out of fear of the evil beings who've enslaved them.

EDIT
One mod I liked in Baldurs gate added a reputation tracker and when it got high enough the random muggers you encounter in the base game run away screaming in terror after recognising you.


I have a couple high-level bandits in my homebrew. They are called "Baron Havrek" and "Doombringer, the Ancient Red Dragon." Seriously if you want to get higher than, say 5th level with bandits you need to expand on how the bandits are robbing people.

The dragon does it by existing. The mere threat of it's attacks are enough to compel several farmsteads and villages to deliver a tithe to the town of Felenvar and the town then delivers this to the dragon. Sometimes the creature just gets bored waiting and swoops down into another part of Rukenval and blows up a castle or village to swipe more swag and prove to Felenvar he means business.

Baron Havrek meanwhile does it through a team of three corrupt sheriffs who in turn have brute squads (yes, stolen from THAT movie) with them. It works kind of like the mob. The baron pretends to be all nice and says the villages under his rule must pay a bit extra than their neighbors, since they have all these humanoids and monsters in the area and the baron is hard at work protecting the common folk. The sheriffs and their men go around collecting and pretending to keep the region safe. If someone comes up short the law roughs them up for the cash; if that doesn't work then humanoids miraculously appear to motivate the community as a whole to make up the shortfall. Of course many of these monsters are on the baron's payroll, but the commoners don't need to know that.

Bandits can be a general term for anyone who takes from others in some way instead of earning their own. In this definition most PCs are bandits. They just tend to be Robin Hood types who are defeating evil and injustice at the same time as they are stealing from others.


I actually think successful bandits should be pretty good at combat. If the PCs gain power by fighting then why not NPCs.

Order of the Stick made the very valid point that D&D (they were talking about 3.5 but the point stands) doesn't lend itself well to banditry as a sustainable economic force. Anyone with enough money to be worth stealing will have enough guards to ensure heavy losses. Due to the economy being built around PCs, keeping your men outfitted is extremely expensive especially if you want to keep them competitive. This means not enough men will survive to become experienced and those that do probably won't be able to afford good enough equipment. This doesn't even get into the fact that heroes wander the land and regularly cleanse the area of bandits.

To have bandits, you need to rethink many things about your setting and probably build it specifically so that bandits could exist. The ex-soldiers comments above are a good idea.

Having a weak but wealthy noble ruling the land can help. Perhaps the bandits are only pretending to be bandits. Secretly, they're soldiers from a rival noble who have been paid to make trouble in the weak noble's land in order to weaken his position in court.

I like the idea of an evil divine spellcaster taking a weak, disorganized bandit camp and suddenly turning it into a terrorist cell dedicated to their dark god. Rovagug works well for this. Maybe an intelligent Evil monster could fill the same spot.


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Diego Rossi wrote:

The bandit problem is partially a problem of the 3.x set of rules, they are slow in resolving figths with large numbers of enemies and make that kind of encounters (and most random encounters) pointless against the time spent to run them. For me that break immersion as the world seem devoid of non level appropriate threats.

I recall an encounter I GM in AD&D 1st edition.
The nation was in complete disarray after a disastrous war, the government had collapsed, local warlord ruled the territory. The PC (12th level, at a time a high level, roughly equivalent to level 16 in Pathfinder) were asked to help one of the surviving baronies.
While en route they encountered a troops of bandits, about 200 men strong (some were ex military, other people that had lost their homes and resorted to banditry and manslaughter to survive, in the scenario it was a credible encounter).
Seeing the 7-8 men player group, well armed and well dressed, the bandit commander decided that losing several men wasn't a good idea, even if it was "a assured victory" in his eyes, so he sent his lieutenant to ask for money for the "right to use the road" while his men encircled the party.
After the PC granted reply: "No, you pay us to continue living." the fight was very fast. A couple of fireball wiped out a lot of enemies (1st edition fireball had a fixed volume, so cast at the right height on open ground it did become a half sphere with a 30' radius, very nice).
The martials engaged the few guys that survived the fireballs, as they were clearly higher level characters.
Total rout of the bandits (some of them fired a few arrows, nothing more) time to run the encounter dialogs included: 10 minutes. Effects: a few almost meaningless resources spent, a fun encounter.

Try running the same thing in Pathfinder respecting the rules. How long it will last? Too much, so we avoid that kind of encounter.

We need some good mob rule to use this kind of encounters.

Maybe there was a big change between 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D, I don't know, but the only major factor that adjusts the length of that encounter is the smaller radius of a fireball. Either system you are rolling 200+ saving throws. You can of course save some time by pre-rolling the damage dice for a successful saving throw to see if anyone even survives.

We have far more tactical options now, but the game hasn't changed that much.


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Question: What makes you guys think banditry is all that sustainable in Real Life? Sure, there are exceptions, but you notice most of them soon develop into something more substantial, or the authorities put them down when they start becoming a serious threat.

Scarab Sages

Diego Rossi wrote:

Try running the same thing in Pathfinder respecting the rules. How long it will last? Too much, so we avoid that kind of encounter.

We need some good mob rule to use this kind of encounters.

If you're looking for large combat rules: Look no further.

That said, I agree that most bandits just won't attack heavily armed PCs that look competent. They might set traps, or have some secret weapon (a looted cannon trained on the PCs position?), but no bandit wants a fair fight.

The last time my PCs tangled with bandits, the bandits had a captive owlbear which they loosed on the PCs as a distraction and then they legged it as soon as the PCs killed the owlbear.

Sovereign Court

@Larkos: the OotS analysis is a good one, but only IF you assume that WBL and XP for encounter rules apply to off-screen NPCs as well. But if you apply that zealously, that also means that every rich merchant is also a high-level character, that low-level characters can't become tax-collectors because they can't handle having that much loot in their pockets and so on.

SAMAS makes a good point though; banditry is usually "dynamic"; people with little left to lose take it up and many of them don't live all that long. The ones that do tend to get smart and pay off or co-opt those local forces that could stop them. To deal with entrenched successful bandits, you're going to need outside heroes...


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Degoon Squad wrote:
RavenStarver wrote:
Now, Pirates, that's an entirely different kettle of fish

here some unflattering facts about real pirates.

The favorite prey of real pirates during the height of Piracy between the 16-18 century were slave ships. Slaves where easy to sell,the buyers did not ask questions , and slave ship crew caught between a pirate ship and their cargo which might revolt any minute would always quickly surrender

Yeah, I remember reading about that in High School.

Mostly I was referring to, why would they attack the party? From a distance, unless the party has a very recognizable ship, a ship looks like a ship. It's not until they've already started shooting and fireballs start flying back that they go "Oh crap"


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Ooh, I found a template that could help with making low level NPCs dangerous.

The Troop Template.

"Troop" is an acquired template that can be added to any Small, Medium, or Large construct, elemental, humanoid, outsider, or undead. A troop can incorporate any riding animals used by such creatures as long as such mounts are Medium or Large. A mount and rider together is treated as one creature of the mount's size for all calculations of troop abilities.

A troop is deliberately formed and requires a degree of training and organization beforehand, as well as at least a few minutes of actually ordering ranks before battle. Creatures with Intelligence 2 or less must be under the direct control of intelligent creatures in order to form troops. A troop uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: A troop is a Gargantuan creature composed of twenty small or medium creatures or five large creatures (or riders on large creatures). The troop’s type remains unchanged from the base creature (ignore the type of any mounts).

Hit Dice: A troop has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points. Troops have half the total hit points and Hit Dice the component creatures. This works out to ten times the base creature's values for small and medium creatures, five times the creature's values for large creatures. Include mounts in the calculation, including the mount's size. Reducing a troop to 0 hit points or lower causes it to lose cohesion break up into component creatures which are broken and run away from the battle to the best of their ability. Damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Troops are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage.

Speed: A troop’s speed is 10 feet slower than that of the base creature (or its mount, if applicable).

Armor Class: As the base creature, with a +4 troop bonus. Ignore the Troop’s new size modifier; AC is based on the size code of component creatures.

Base Attack: A troop uses the attack bonuses of component creatures with a +4 troop bonus.

Attack/Full Attack: The attacks of the troop are carried out by individual creatures in the troop, using the attack bonus of the troop. The number of creatures that can attack each round depends on their size and armament. Total the number of attacks from the following table.

Base creature is Small 9 attacks
Base creature is Medium 6 attacks
Base creature is Large 3 attacks
Reach (per 5' of reach) +3 attacks
Piercing weapons +3 attacks
Missile Weapons +3 attacks

If a troop uses several different sets of weapons, it might have a different number of attackers with each set. All troop attack in a given round must use the same set of weapons. Attackers attack individually, allowing each of them to make one attack in a charge and to gain extra attacks from special tactics like Two Weapon-Fighting.

Space/Reach: 20 feet/5 ft. The reach of the base creature is ignored.

Attack Options: Troops gain the following attack options.
Expert Grappler (Ex): A troop can maintain a grapple without penalty and still make attacks against other targets (normally, attacking other targets while grappling imposes a –20 penalty on grapple checks). A troop is never considered flat-footed while grappling. Multiple Opportunities (Ex): Each time a troop makes an attack of opportunity, all of the eligible attackers in the troop can make an attack of opportunity.
Troop Anatomy (Ex): Troops are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have an effect on a troop. Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures inflicts damage to the troop equal to the hit points of the base creature. Effects that affect single creatures which do not incapacitate as above have no effect.
Although troops are treated as one creature, it sometimes becomes necessary to determine the fate of a specific individual caught up in the troop. If a troop is dispersed by nonlethal attacks, there are no casualties. If the troop is dispersed by lethal attacks, assume that 30% of its number are slain and 30% are reduced to 0 hit points. To determine a specific individual’s fate, simply roll d%: a result of 01–30 indicates death, 31–60 indicates the victim is reduced to 0 hit points, and a roll of 61–100 indicates the victim escapes relatively unscathed.
Troops take double damage from area attacks that cover at least half the troop's space, that is 8 or more squares in the troop's area.

Saves: A troop’s saving throws are recalculated based on its new hit dice. A troop makes saving throws as a single creature.

Abilities: A troop’s abilities are the same as the base creature, as well as the following:

Skills: Same as the base creature; do not recalculate based on the troop’s new Hit Dice, but do include modifiers for changes in size and speed. Mounts and riders use the best value in each skill.

Feats: Same as the base creature; do not recalculate based on the troop’s new Hit Dice.

Organization: Solitary, platoon (2-4), battalion (5-10), or army (11-200). Troops are often accompanied by leaders and officers of the same size as the base creature, who can occupy the same space as the troop because of the size difference.

Challenge Rating: As base creature +6 if the base creature is Small or Medium. As base creature +2 if the base creature is Large.

Advancement: As base creature.

Level Adjustment: —

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:
RavenStarver wrote:

Bandits, whenever I come across them they're either useless after a couple levels or you somehow have 8th level thieves sleeping in the woods like hobos and mugging farmers.

How do you keep bandits relevant as encounters while maintaining a sense of realism for the region they're in?

Again, it's about how you play the game at various levels. You do fairly ordinary stuff at levels 1-6, Heroic at 6-12, and superheroic 12 and higher. Which means you don't try to have the same types of encounters for all three brackets.

Pretty much this. The game is designed around a monster graduation process with treadmill progression. Sure you can add class levels and templates but it gets to be a lot of work and like mentioned hurts immersion a bit. You might want to take a gander at 5E specifically Bounded Accuracy it makes a game like you are looking for much more achievable.


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Two examples to follow:

Elven Warband (Troop of Elven warrior 1) CR 6

CG Gargantuan humanoid (troop of Medium elves)
Init +1; Senses Nightvision, Listen +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, Elven
AC 20 (+2 Dex, +3 studded leather, +1 light shield, +4 troop) touch 15, flat-footed 18
Hp 45 (10 HD)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee 6 Longsword +6 (1d8+1/19-20)
Ranged 12 longbow +7 (1d8/×3)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +5; Grp +6
Atk Options expert grappler, multiple opportunities
Abilities Str 13, Dex 13, Con 0, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
SQ elf traits, troop anatomy
Feats Weapon Focus (longbow)
Skills Hide -11, Listen +2, Search +3, Spot +2

Veteran Cohort (Troop of human warrior 3) CR 8

LN Gargantuan humanoid (troop of Medium humans)
Init +4; Senses Listen -1, Spot -1
Languages Common
AC 22 (+4 chain shirt, +4 wall shield, +4 troop) touch 14, flat-footed 22
Hp 166 (30 HD)
Fort +18, Ref +10, Will +10
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee 9 Shortsword +7 (1d6+1/19-20)
Ranged 9 Javelin +6 (1d6+1)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +7; Grp +8
Atk Options expert grappler, multiple opportunities
Abilities Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 9
SQ troop anatomy, wall shield
Feats Weapon Focus (short sword), Weapon Focus (javelin), Improved Initiative
Skills Climb -5, Jump -9

Now this is from 3.5 so it might take some adjustments but it should translate very easily


Degoon Squad wrote:
RavenStarver wrote:
Now, Pirates, that's an entirely different kettle of fish

here some unflattering facts about real pirates.

The favorite prey of real pirates during the height of Piracy between the 16-18 century were slave ships. Slaves where easy to sell,the buyers did not ask questions , and slave ship crew caught between a pirate ship and their cargo which might revolt any minute would always quickly surrender

If they weren't evil they wouldn't be suitable opposition for heros.

What pirates have over bandits are the naval combat rules, which can dramatically reduce the impact of high level characters. The martials are pretty much irrelevant and the divine casters are a lot less significant than in terrestrial combat. Pirate crews should accordingly be wiz/sorc heavy.

Liberty's Edge

Hark wrote:

Maybe there was a big change between 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D, I don't know, but the only major factor that adjusts the length of that encounter is the smaller radius of a fireball. Either system you are rolling 200+ saving throws. You can of course save some time by pre-rolling the damage dice for a successful saving throw to see if anyone even survives.

We have far more tactical options now, but the game hasn't changed that much.

Spell ST = 15, 200 targets, 6 out of 20 save, so if you hit all the bandits in one go 60 have successfully saved. As the typical bandit had 14 hp the caster had to roll a low result with a 10d6 fireball to make a successful save meaningful for the rank and file bandit.

Generally it was worth rolling only the saves of the higher level NPC.
Noe that in that situation it was not possible to hit all of them with a single fireball, at most 20 or so, depending on the formation, but you had clear rules for morale checks and, in that scenario, the chances of the NPC running away after the second fireball were high.

Combat has slowed down with the 3.x. Positions and precise movement matter more, the creatures have more HP, more attack options, and movement is way shorter (it was 60-120 yards in the open, feet in dungeons) and we have AoO. Those alone mean way more attacks.


By 8th level common bandits shouldn't be a threat to the PCs. The leaders of the bandits would be a threat and they would higher level. Basically PCs would be moving up the food chain. If the PCs were to become a real threat to the bandits who are organized they would take action against the PCs by hiring assassins, plotting against them, framing them for crimes and all sorts of tactics to eliminate the threat to their livelihood.

Unorganized random bandits would just meet an untidy end as they have no network of power to climb. Organized bandits would organized in cells forming a guild which could be very dangerous to high level PCs and the organized crime would have high level bad guys calling the shots.

Liberty's Edge

Wolfsnap wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Try running the same thing in Pathfinder respecting the rules. How long it will last? Too much, so we avoid that kind of encounter.

We need some good mob rule to use this kind of encounters.

If you're looking for large combat rules: Look no further.

That said, I agree that most bandits just won't attack heavily armed PCs that look competent. They might set traps, or have some secret weapon (a looted cannon trained on the PCs position?), but no bandit wants a fair fight.

The last time my PCs tangled with bandits, the bandits had a captive owlbear which they loosed on the PCs as a distraction and then they legged it as soon as the PCs killed the owlbear.

Seem a bit too large scale, I want a mechanic to manage a large number of low level NPC as a group while having the PC acting normally. Something like a "swarm" but made of goblins or level 1 human warriors.


You probably want something like 4e's Minion rules, then.


Realism does not mix well with Pathfinder.

It does not mix well with a lot of things, actually.


Zhayne wrote:
You probably want something like 4e's Minion rules, then.

Which, amusingly, Jason Bulmahn's already done. Rule Zero: Underlings

The GM for one of my games is using these pretty heavily; they work pretty well.


Zhangar wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
You probably want something like 4e's Minion rules, then.

Which, amusingly, Jason Bulmahn's already done. Rule Zero: Underlings

The GM for one of my games is using these pretty heavily; they work pretty well.

I've never heard of this, do they work well?


Going off of the template I found I'm gonna make the base Bandit from the Gamemastery Guide into a Troop.

Bandit
blahblahblah
AC: 21, Touch: 17, Flat-footed: 18
HP: 90 (20d10)
Fort: +22 Reflex: +19 Will: +16

Speed: 20ft.
Melee: 9 rapiers +7(1d6+1/18-20) or 6 saps +7(1d6+1 nonlethal)
Ranged: 12 Composite Longbows +8(1d8+1/x3)

CR 6

That would wreck a lowlevel party IMO and would still be viable threat at even higher levels, each troop is 20 people so if there are enough bandits set up one troop on each side of the road, and shoot the crap out of anyone that goes between you.


RavenStarver wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
You probably want something like 4e's Minion rules, then.

Which, amusingly, Jason Bulmahn's already done. Rule Zero: Underlings

The GM for one of my games is using these pretty heavily; they work pretty well.

I've never heard of this, do they work well?

Sorry, that sounded dumb. I meant how do they work? I don't have the money ATM to get it.


Realistic bandit encounter past 2nd level: The PCs see the bandits running away.

Bandit thinking: The guys in armor don't seem to be guards for the guys who aren't in armor--thus the unarmored guys should be figured to be at least as great a threat as the armored ones. Their gear looks very nice yet they are wandering around out here in uncivilized lands. That almost certainly means they feel they're tough enough to deal with what they encounter out here.

Alternately, if their hides are good they very well might decide that's safer than running. They're certainly not going to attack, though.

Now, they might run into some pseudo-bandits: The "leader" is something else in disguise, the rest of the bandits are just a distraction. The leader very well might convince such bandits that they can win by a properly done ambush--after all, anyone will go down with enough arrows sticking out of them.


They could be lazy adventurers lying in wait to rob other, more active adventurers who just came out of the dragon's lair laden with loot, completely oblivious to their impending peril.


RavenStarver wrote:

Ooh, I found a template that could help with making low level NPCs dangerous.

The Troop Template.

"Troop" is an acquired template that can be added to any Small, Medium, or Large construct, elemental, humanoid, outsider, or undead. A troop can incorporate any riding animals used by such creatures as long as such mounts are Medium or Large. A mount and rider together is treated as one creature of the mount's size for all calculations of troop abilities.

A troop is deliberately formed and requires a degree of training and organization beforehand, as well as at least a few minutes of actually ordering ranks before battle. Creatures with Intelligence 2 or less must be under the direct control of intelligent creatures in order to form troops. A troop uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: A troop is a Gargantuan creature composed of twenty small or medium creatures or five large creatures (or riders on large creatures). The troop’s type remains unchanged from the base creature (ignore the type of any mounts).

Hit Dice: A troop has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points. Troops have half the total hit points and Hit Dice the component creatures. This works out to ten times the base creature's values for small and medium creatures, five times the creature's values for large creatures. Include mounts in the calculation, including the mount's size. Reducing a troop to 0 hit points or lower causes it to lose cohesion break up into component creatures which are broken and run away from the battle to the best of their ability. Damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Troops are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage.

Speed: A troop’s speed is 10 feet slower than that of the base creature (or its mount, if applicable).

Armor Class: As the base creature, with a +4 troop bonus. Ignore the Troop’s new size modifier; AC is based on the size code of component creatures.

Base Attack:...

Very awesome and helpful, but just where did you get this template from? I remember troops showing up in 'Rasputin Must Die', but I don't think they detailed how to create one yourself.

But that template works wonders for keeping bandits and other low-CR monsters a threat at higher levels.

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