Should DM's enforce the Child Characters ruleset?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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So, recently, while attempting to sign up for a campaign online, I proposed a 11 year old half-Elf Wizard who taught herself magic from the ground up from the age of six (Int 20), but was denied due to her being too young, and said that if I wanted to play a child, I would have to use the Young Characters ruleset.
This, predictably, is annoying, primarily due to forcing me to take NPC class levels, rather than actual wizard levels. My question is, should DM's enforce the child ruleset on their players?

A note: I would be the only child there.


Maybe it ruins his sense of immersion to have a child adventure, let alone a child with the same physical stats as an adult. Even if a child were to mature early physically I can't see an adult taking them along on a dangerous mission.

As for the NPC classes is he forcing everyone to take NPC classes, or just your child character?

Going back to your question there is no right or wrong answer as to "should". It is just a matter of preference.

I would not allow a child character in a game at all unless it was a special game and the other characters were maybe no older than 16, and even then they might start off with the young template instead, which might be more harsh.

In any event I would not force the person to use NPC classes.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Your DM is entirely within his/her rights to enforce constraints on character types.

Ruleswise what your DM wants to enforce makes perfect sense. Your character is a child, especially by half-elf standards, you're barely beyond a squalling toddler.

Your DM isn't forcing you to take NPC levels. He's just mandating the pre-reqs for your choice.

The young characters ruleset is mainly for those who don't mind a somewhat anime flavor to their games.


Why would you want to play an 11 year-old char? To answer your question: yes, because having the same stats as an adult would not be logical/realistic (even in a fantasy game), although the young template might be a better fix.

Grand Lodge

Should they? Not a rules question. If you want a character who is less than the minimum age for an adventurer and your GM is prepared to allow this departure from the rules, I would think you should be prepared to use the mechanics for that choice. Otherwise, a half-elf can take PC class levels at 20 years and if you want to claim you're 11 for some roleplaying reason, the game world will draw its own conclusions.

Sovereign Court

11 years old Half-elf is like what...a 5 year old human?

They are optional rules, because playing children is actually very odd and even more so on a wizard. Wizard are all about taking the long time to learn how to use magic, mostly why all wizards start in the trained age category.

You probably could have gotten away with it on a sorcerer since it's just magic in the blood but well, not sure what is your dm stance on heroic classes in general.


wraithstrike wrote:

Maybe it ruins his sense of immersion to have a child adventure, let alone a child with the same physical stats as an adult. Even if a child were to mature early physically I can't see an adult taking them along on a dangerous mission.

As for the NPC classes is he forcing everyone to take NPC classes, or just your child character?

Going back to your question there is no right or wrong answer as to "should". It is just a matter of preference.

I would not allow a child character in a game at all unless it was a special game and the other characters were maybe no older than 16, and even then they might start off with the young template instead, which might be more harsh.

In any event I would not force the person to use NPC classes.

Actually, it was 15 point buy, she had 12 dex, and (As stated before) 20 Inteligence. The only really unusual thing in comparison to some would be her 12 constitution, and I wanted to dumped strength, wisdom and Charisma, but there's a rule that states that I will not be allowed to have more than 2 stats in the negatives.

I would be the only one being forced into a NPC class, and even then, there isn't actually any Arcane NPC classes to take either.

Let's just say, for the sake of whole team balance and enjoyment for everyone, would you enforce this rule?

No templates are allowed, however. I tried to go in with the child and advanced templates, but that wouldn't be allowed.

Eltacolibre wrote:

11 years old Half-elf is like what...a 5 year old human?

They are optional rules, because playing children is actually very odd and even more so on a wizard. Wizard are all about taking the long time to learn how to use magic, mostly why all wizards start in the trained age category.

You probably could have gotten away with it on a sorcerer since it's just magic in the blood but well, not sure what is your dm stance on heroic classes in general.

Keep in mind, she is a genius, and I dumped strength and wisdom, so I hoped it would be somewhat balanced in comparison to adults. She's spent most of her young life learning magic. And my gripe isn't with the stat-ajustents, it's with the fact that I can only take NPC class levels.

And, actually, I believe Half-Elves are biologically advanced at 16 years.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

half elves/human
10 = 8
20 = 15

Sovereign Court

Actually they do state in the age rules, that half-elves are adult at 20. Humans are adult at 15.

Guess bandw2 got it right.


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An 11 year old half elf would be roughly equivalent to an 8 year old human. Personally I would just say no to role-playing an equivalent-to 8-year-old child.


Vagabonds. wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Maybe it ruins his sense of immersion to have a child adventure, let alone a child with the same physical stats as an adult. Even if a child were to mature early physically I can't see an adult taking them along on a dangerous mission.

As for the NPC classes is he forcing everyone to take NPC classes, or just your child character?

Going back to your question there is no right or wrong answer as to "should". It is just a matter of preference.

I would not allow a child character in a game at all unless it was a special game and the other characters were maybe no older than 16, and even then they might start off with the young template instead, which might be more harsh.

In any event I would not force the person to use NPC classes.

Actually, it was 15 point buy, she had 12 dex, and (As stated before) 20 Inteligence. The only really unusual thing in comparison to some would be her 12 constitution, and I wanted to dumped strength, wisdom and Charisma, but there's a rule that states that I will not be allowed to have more than 2 stats in the negatives.

I would be the only one being forced into a NPC class, and even then, there isn't actually any Arcane NPC classes to take either.

Let's just say, for the sake of whole team balance and enjoyment for everyone, would you enforce this rule?

No templates are allowed, however. I tried to go in with the child and advanced templates, but that wouldn't be allowed.

Eltacolibre wrote:

11 years old Half-elf is like what...a 5 year old human?

They are optional rules, because playing children is actually very odd and even more so on a wizard. Wizard are all about taking the long time to learn how to use magic, mostly why all wizards start in the trained age category.

You probably could have gotten away with it on a sorcerer since it's just magic in the blood but well, not sure what is your dm stance on

...

You aren't being forced into anything; you're choosing to play a child. Would I enforce the rules? Depends on the campaign. Usually, yes.


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I would allow this... but purely as a roleplay decision. So the question is, are you trying to get anything out of it? Are you trying to be small sized? Do you want the stat bumps? If it's purely a roleplay decision, I could see trying to persuade you to just play the character without interference from the GM. OTOH, if they still say no, that's their right.

If you're trying to get stats out of it, then definitely the rules are there for a reason. Otherwise, sign me up for a +6 dex goblin gunslinger child.


Vagabonds. wrote:


I would be the only one being forced into a NPC class, and even then, there isn't actually any Arcane NPC classes to take either.
Let's just say, for the sake of whole team balance and enjoyment for everyone, would you enforce this rule?

No templates are allowed, however. I tried to go in with the child and advanced templates, but that wouldn't be allowed.

The advanced template would pretty much negate the child template if taken together so that should not happen. If you are asking me would I make you take an NPC class, then I already said no. I don't expect for an NPC class to really contribute to the party as well so I would either allow you to be child or say make a normal character, but it is not my game. Most likely you would have to make a normal character as stated in my previous post.

Dark Archive

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While your DM is the one who gets to make the call here (I support the general idea of DMs getting the final call of what rules are/aren't in play in their games), I personally avoid using the NPC-class requirement for young characters in my games; it's too punishing and removes otherwise-fun-to-play character ideas from the 'viable' pile. I usually would stick with stat mods being in place for the young characters (either from the young character rules or the young template).

Dark Archive

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Stauffie wrote:
Why would you want to play an 11 year-old char?

Not sure that really matters. I assume it is because he wants to but I can see the investigative aspect of trying to find something that isn't a child for him to play because his real desire is to be be a chiby or something. I just assume that people are smart enough to say what they mean and clarify on their own if necessary. But as we know, that isn't always the case.

I play a gnome who is 24 years old (which is about 12 in human years). He is a child. He has nightmares and everything. In pfs, I role play him as a child but officially he has to be an adult. People go with it and love the character.

An 11 year old elf is a lot younger than 5 unless the maturation process for elves is different than I remember. Actually, they might be effectively 11. I believe it is during puberty that their maturation cycle slows down and they remain a teenager more or less indefinitely.

In regards to the dm's decision, yes he should if it is what he wants to do. He's the gm after all. Conversely, if you dislike his decision you can approach him on the issue or not play the character. If a gm told me I had to play my child as an adult, I would simply put the character sheet in my folder and find another character to play or leave the table if necessary. If a gm told me I had to apply the young template to my child character, I would consider if it was something I would enjoy and if it was not, would speak with the gm about it. If that didn't work, I'd make another character.

Shadow Lodge

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Quote:
Should DM's enforce the Child Characters ruleset?

Absolutely, if that is what they prefer for their campaign.


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Vagabonds. wrote:

So, recently, while attempting to sign up for a campaign online, I proposed a 11 year old half-Elf Wizard who taught herself magic from the ground up from the age of six (Int 20), but was denied due to her being too young, and said that if I wanted to play a child, I would have to use the Young Characters ruleset.

This, predictably, is annoying, primarily due to forcing me to take NPC class levels, rather than actual wizard levels. My question is, should DM's enforce the child ruleset on their players?

A note: I would be the only child there.

I don't think they should, but I think age should be merely a cosmetic thing with no mechanical effects whatsoever.


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You would be completely useless with an NPC class. If your GM doesn't want you playing a child character they should be honest about it rather than doing the passive-aggressive "sure you can play, but I'm going to make every session hell for you".


You are dumping 3 stats to get a stat of 20 with a 15-point ability score buy for an eleven-year-old child character. Correct?

So you would be playing a child prodigy, albeit a very weak, impulsive, and unlikeable one. One wonders exactly what type of adventurer would agree to adventuring with such a person. Or why this person wouldn't just use their prodigious intelligence to outwit and outsmart people into giving up their coin and treasure. Adventuring seems far too risky and dangerous - oh wait, there's that wisdom thing again. Your character might have fallen down the well to test a theory on elemental gravity inversion long before embarking on a career as a child adventurer, I think. Or mayhaps a party of evil n'er do-wells might have talked you into something unsavory.


I would be okay with a child PC, but only for classes who's starting age is intuitive. Myself, I always like rolling ages for my characters (if I don't already know the character's background enough to know how old they are) based on their class.

Liberty's Edge

The GM is within his right to do whatever he wants. You went outside what most people would consider the norm to make your character...and now you are questioning his counter proposal because he came up with a condition you did not care for. My guess is that he also does not want an 11 year old kid as a player character, but I give him a lot of credit that he was willing to compromise to allow you to have the concept you wanted.

I would not be so accepting. If you were one of my players, I would have politely asked you to choose a character within the normal age range.

Other posters have come to the conclusion that an age 11 half-elf would be about the same as an age 7 or 8 human. My nephew is 7 years old and pretty sharp for his age...but considering his maturity level, it just isn't believable. In my campaign, such a 'character' could only be an NPC.


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I tend to think of all the age categories mechanics as pointless except in the context of specific magic stuff that forces you to move up and down (and as such essentially working as status effects). So you want to play a 100 year old Monk or an 11 year old anything? Who cares? You have point buy to assign stats in a way that makes sense so adding more crap on top of it at best hinders concepts unnecessarily and at worst encourages your Synthesist to be older than god because it provides nothing but straight mechanical benefit.

I play it as whatever you happen to buy is your character's stats already accounting for age modifiers, so grandpa barbarian used to have 24 strength is his youth, but now at the ripe old age of 90 he has to make due with that shiny new 18 you bought him at character gen.


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Vagabonds. wrote:

So, recently, while attempting to sign up for a campaign online, I proposed a 11 year old half-Elf Wizard who taught herself magic from the ground up from the age of six (Int 20), but was denied due to her being too young, and said that if I wanted to play a child, I would have to use the Young Characters ruleset.

This, predictably, is annoying, primarily due to forcing me to take NPC class levels, rather than actual wizard levels. My question is, should DM's enforce the child ruleset on their players?

A note: I would be the only child there.

To be brutally honest, I would never allow a child PC in the first place. Given that I am an anime fan who mixes some of that medium into my house rules and setting, I forsee somebody making a child character eventually, which is why I'm pre-empting that request by putting a minimum character age of 20 into my house rule list. I just don't feel comfortable GMing for the sorts of characters who would actually allow a child to accompany them into combat. When children get into fights, they get hurt or killed, and I want that taken seriously, not played off as something that isn't a gigantic problem.


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Even if everyone completely agreed with your point of view and said "let him be what he wants" in regard to your character concept (which it seems not to be the case) it doesn't really matter.

I mean, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think you're going to show the results of this page and go "See, I told you so, I should be allowed to play a kid" and it will change your GM's mind?

I understand when GMs hit up the rules questions forum to get advice on how to rule for a particular situation, but when it's a player saying "Was this fair?", I think it's really disrespectful of your GM and their initial ruling. It's like a kid who doesn't like a rule their parents came up to going to their grandparents and saying "go tell mom and dad they're wrong."


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Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
I just don't feel comfortable GMing for the sorts of characters who would actually allow a child to accompany them into combat. When children get into fights, they get hurt or killed, and I want that taken seriously, not played off as something that isn't a gigantic problem.

I see your point, but fantasy worlds are rough places to grow up. I mean how often is it that PCs tend to be orphans of violence? Sounds like a kind of place that isn't child friendly by default; adventurers taking a kid in and treating them an apprentice doesn't sound too far out of line.


How old was Bucky when taken by captain america to fight nazis?
Or Robin when first went into combat with batman?

Indiana Jones and short round?
Anakin skywalker (although he was repeatedly told not to) ?

IRL the Viet Cong fielded children not old enough, by american standards to watch violence in a movie theatre.
Same thing happens in Afghanistan Daily.

Children in combat or dangerous places?
I bring you the tales of Oliver Twist.

Not to MENTION… Harry Potter and Percy Jackson (the books are about much younger kids than are portrayed int he movies)

I think however, why didn't the PC simply make a halfling character with the "childlike" and "pass for human" feats?


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Pendagast wrote:
I think however, why didn't the PC simply make a halfling character with the "childlike" and "pass for human" feats?

Because that's a massive feat tax for pretty much no benefit whatsoever besides flavor.


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God no. If the GM doesn't want child characters he should be man enough to say no, child characters aren't allowed, instead of being all passive aggressive like "Sure, but you have to take big stat penalties and can only be NPC classes."

The Exchange

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At some point, being a child is going to affect how NPCs interact with you. In other words there'll be in game penalties and disadvantages to being your age.

As a DM I wouldn't allow that type of character, mostly because my groups are adults who have kids of our own and aren't interested in that sort of thing.

If I was allowing a concept like yours, I'd leave it as you've built it, no more penalties required. However, I'd be sure to have situations where your age worked both for and against you.

However, I am not the DM. Your DM has stated what they want in order for you to run your concept. It is their call, since it's their campaign. You can accept it and stick with your concept, or change your concept. That's pretty much all you have.

Coming to the boards to ask about it may give you alternate points of view, but I implore you not to use the boards as a means of gathering ammunition against a DM.

Cheers.


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
Vagabonds. wrote:

So, recently, while attempting to sign up for a campaign online, I proposed a 11 year old half-Elf Wizard who taught herself magic from the ground up from the age of six (Int 20), but was denied due to her being too young, and said that if I wanted to play a child, I would have to use the Young Characters ruleset.

This, predictably, is annoying, primarily due to forcing me to take NPC class levels, rather than actual wizard levels. My question is, should DM's enforce the child ruleset on their players?

A note: I would be the only child there.

To be brutally honest, I would never allow a child PC in the first place. Given that I am an anime fan who mixes some of that medium into my house rules and setting, I forsee somebody making a child character eventually, which is why I'm pre-empting that request by putting a minimum character age of 20 into my house rule list. I just don't feel comfortable GMing for the sorts of characters who would actually allow a child to accompany them into combat. When children get into fights, they get hurt or killed, and I want that taken seriously, not played off as something that isn't a gigantic problem.

20 seems a bit high since several classes as per the rules can start at 16 and as an above poster said in this world there's a being orphaned and taken willingly or otherwise as a member of their group.

That said I personally wouldn't want a character this young in my game but then again I start with the assumption everyone's an adult and modify stats accordingly. So you take your point buy, modify as per your race then modify as per your age. In this case I'd speak to your GM and see if he's willing to compromise on the NPC levels, maybe offer to make your character a little older. Even 15/16 equilvilnet age for a wizard is prodigy level. Otherwise if he just doesn't want a child character there's not much you can do as gm's get the final call on theiir worlds.


i would consider a child character purely cosmetic and would require a minimum age of the racial equivalent to around 10 human years. you could push it as young as 8 in certain campaigns or with races that develop more slowly. for an example, an elf could reach the elven equivalent to 8 years before adventuring, but a human would have to be at least 10 or maybe 12 to adventure. depending on society and culture


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I don't think your GM should enforce stat penalties. He should say no if he doesn't want it. However, I can envision a number of really compelling child characters I'd be tempted to play. How about a war orphan sorcerer. Is traveling with a party of adventurers really worse than remaining an orphan? Being an adventurer sounds like a real growth opportunity for a child; if they make through alive they will be very interesting adults.

I get it if a GM doesn't want one, but if RPed well, there's no reason not to allow it.


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Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

I don't think your GM should enforce stat penalties. He should say no if he doesn't want it. However, I can envision a number of really compelling child characters I'd be tempted to play. How about a war orphan sorcerer. Is traveling with a party of adventurers really worse than remaining an orphan? Being an adventurer sounds like a real growth opportunity for a child; if they make through alive they will be very interesting adults.

I get it if a GM doesn't want one, but if RPed well, there's no reason not to allow it.

i agree with this, a child sorcerer orphaned by war and growing up through the trials of an adventurer instead of through the trials of orphan hood, is an amazing concept, the child would eventually grow into a hero or heroine and learn adulthood the hard and fast way.


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I'm betting I'm the only one who likes the Young Character rule set in this thread. There's retraining rules too, you know, and as a wizard you'd start off as an Adept and not be totally useless. :)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I played child characters twice without using the child rules (it was I believe, before they existed.) and they were some of my favorite and most memorable characters ever. One was a 14 year old summoner, who unwisely went off seeking to rescue his friends after a mass child kidnapping, and the other was a feral child half-elf (mental equivalent of 12 or so) druid/barbarian gestalt who could not be stopped from tagging along in Second Darkness to repay the Oracle that saved her life.

I can see how some people would be uncomfortable with allowing child adventurers, but I think with the right player it can lead to a good story. I had so much fun playing these characters, and I definitely role-played them as children/preteens. It made an interesting Batman and Robin dynamic between my characters and certain other party members.

Granted, those characters both died horrible deaths, but overall I'd say my GM allowing it was a good thing.


Liam Warner wrote:
Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
Vagabonds. wrote:

So, recently, while attempting to sign up for a campaign online, I proposed a 11 year old half-Elf Wizard who taught herself magic from the ground up from the age of six (Int 20), but was denied due to her being too young, and said that if I wanted to play a child, I would have to use the Young Characters ruleset.

This, predictably, is annoying, primarily due to forcing me to take NPC class levels, rather than actual wizard levels. My question is, should DM's enforce the child ruleset on their players?

A note: I would be the only child there.

To be brutally honest, I would never allow a child PC in the first place. Given that I am an anime fan who mixes some of that medium into my house rules and setting, I forsee somebody making a child character eventually, which is why I'm pre-empting that request by putting a minimum character age of 20 into my house rule list. I just don't feel comfortable GMing for the sorts of characters who would actually allow a child to accompany them into combat. When children get into fights, they get hurt or killed, and I want that taken seriously, not played off as something that isn't a gigantic problem.
20 seems a bit high since several classes as per the rules can start at 16 and as an above poster said in this world there's a being orphaned and taken willingly or otherwise as a member of their group.

I went with 20 both because I skip the lowest levels of play, and therefore all characters have some experience, and because my setting assumes the average adventurer starts between 18 and 20 rather than as young as 16.


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Azten wrote:
I'm betting I'm the only one who likes the Young Character rule set in this thread. There's retraining rules too, you know, and as a wizard you'd start off as an Adept and not be totally useless. :)

An Adept would still be mostly useless and overshadowed in a party composed of PC classes. Saying "sure you can retrain in X in-game years into a real class" is just adding insult to injury unless your DM is planning and making you aware that there will be large jumps in time in the campaign... and that one applicable to the retraining will be happening soon.

Grand Lodge

Sometimes, some people just want to play "The Load", and sometimes, everyone else is fine with that.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Sometimes, some people just want to play "The Load", and sometimes, everyone else is fine with that.

I don't think the OP wants to be the Load. If they did they wouldn't have min-maxed a 20 int on a wizard at the expense of nearly all their other stats with one of the most SAD classes in existence. Also if they wanted to be the Load, they wouldn't have a problem playing an NPC class.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If there is anything a child character could conceivably do as well as an adult, its magic.


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Subparhiggins wrote:
If there is anything a child character could conceivably do as well as an adult, its magic.

i played a child barbarian who slaughtered her foes with her bare hands just as well as the party fighter could slaughter things with a falchion. she tore her opponents apart like Shiro from Deadman Wonderland or like any similar character who would kill a foe by tearing off their limbs with her bare hands, thrusting a hand into an opponent's mid section and ripping out vital organs, and consuming said vital organs as her foes bled to death.


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FuriousPhil wrote:

You are dumping 3 stats to get a stat of 20 with a 15-point ability score buy for an eleven-year-old child character. Correct?

So you would be playing a child prodigy, albeit a very weak, impulsive, and unlikeable one. One wonders exactly what type of adventurer would agree to adventuring with such a person.

Apart from the 'child' part, that describes 90% of wizards made by the people on these forums.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
i played a child barbarian who slaughtered her foes with her bare hands just as well as the party fighter could slaughter things with a falchion. she tore her opponents apart like Shiro from Deadman Wonderland or like any similar character who would kill a foe by tearing off their limbs with her bare hands, thrusting a hand into an opponent's mid section and ripping out vital organs, and consuming said vital organs as her foes bled to death.

I also played a child barb, so rock on. I was saying that more for people bothered by the realism of it, especially since the OP's character in question is a Wizard.


Subparhiggins wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
i played a child barbarian who slaughtered her foes with her bare hands just as well as the party fighter could slaughter things with a falchion. she tore her opponents apart like Shiro from Deadman Wonderland or like any similar character who would kill a foe by tearing off their limbs with her bare hands, thrusting a hand into an opponent's mid section and ripping out vital organs, and consuming said vital organs as her foes bled to death.
I also played a child barb, so rock on. I was saying that more for people bothered by the realism of it, especially since the OP's character in question is a Wizard.

well, the campaign allowed called shot rules with a hint of rolemaster style damage charts if you took the called shot penalty with the right weapon at the right area. taking a penalty to hit proportionate to the type of wound you wish to inflict. so it was fun to take a to hit penalty to make an opposed CMB roll to rip an enemy's arm off.


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No. If the GM doesn't want a child character in his campaign, he should just say it straight to the player. No need for passive-aggressive bullshit.


Lemmy wrote:
No. If the GM doesn't want a child character in his campaign, he should just say it straight to the player. No need for passive-aggressive Jerkwaddery.

truesies. i translated the symbols into something safe for work and less offensive to certain ears. i agree with this, if you don't want a child, don't force a specific hindrance and don't be passive aggressive, just tell the player you don't want a child character at the table, but allow the player to pitch to the group for justification and an excuse to adventure.


The GM should *NEVER* enforce the child characters rules. They render the young character completely useless. Any child character concept should either be blocked completely or allowed to use the normal rules (with or without the young template). There is no concept for which forcing an NPC class on a character is beneficial.


Atarlost wrote:
The GM should *NEVER* enforce the child characters rules. They render the young character completely useless. Any child character concept should either be blocked completely or allowed to use the normal rules (with or without the young template). There is no concept for which forcing an NPC class on a character is beneficial.

truesies. the young template isn't even needed, just assign your stats as appropriate and retrain them piece by piece for free as you get older.

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