Is a Pseudodragon familiar worth it for sorcerer?


Advice

Sovereign Court

It looks like I'd have to have the arcane bloodline, and take the improved familiar feat. Is it worth those two things to have a pseudodragon as a familiar?

Scarab Sages

Arcane bloodline is great on it's own. Psuedo Dragon is one of the better familiars, especially if you take the evolve familiar feat to give the tail attack 10' reach.


Well... Yes and no, it depends.

Perfect answer to your every question!

In all seriousness, it can be wonderful. But it isn't perfect for every player or every PC.

Note, you can also eldritch heritage and skill focus in some knowledge skill. I personally recommend knowledge local.

Do you have 10 feats that you absolutely must have ASAP for your build to function? Then no.

Are you wanting it to fight and be another combat creature in the party? Then no, by the time you can get it, it is completely outclassed in combat.

Are you going to be so paranoid about your familiar getting killed that it hides in your backpack all the time? Then no, it probably isn't worth it.

Are you an inexperienced player that has enough trouble keeping track of your PC and doesn't need the added difficulty of a separate creature? Then I can't recommend it.

Are going to take ranks in scout skills (like stealth and perception) then are able and willing to run it as a sneaky scout? Then yeah, it can be pretty bad ash at that.

Are you going to put ranks in UMD and buy it wands to buff you (and maybe others) while you are free for other things? Then yep, it can really help you with action economy.


Also you wouldn't have to have the arcane bloodline, but it will cost an additional feat or two.

There a feat you can take with the release of the new ACG with the aberrant bloodline - Aberrant Tumor or with two feats can also take Eldritch Heritage from Ultimate Magic and get a familiar that way.


Worth it, how? Optimization-wise? No.

Fun-wise? Yes.


Well, the way I see it- you are using a feat to get telepathy and blinsense. Those are useful in their own right. And the thing is super stealthy, and has at least basic proficiency in social skills (enough that it is worth rolling, even if you don't take those skills yourself)

Is it the best improved familiar optimization wise? No....but it is still a perfectly fine choice with its own advantages. You aren't ruining anything with this choice.


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Consider Tattoed Sorcerer. Being able to store the little guy as a tattoo can be really handy.

I still want to find a way to get a flying monkey as a familiar and have the tattoo on my butt.

Scarab Sages

sunbeam wrote:

I still want to find a way to get a flying monkey as a familiar and have the tattoo on my butt.

Be a Summoner. Your Eidolon is a flying monkey, and you manifest it by allowing it to fly out of your butt...


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Imbicatus wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

I still want to find a way to get a flying monkey as a familiar and have the tattoo on my butt.

Be a Summoner. Your Eidolon is a flying monkey, and you manifest it by allowing it to fly out of your butt...

Be sure to pick up the Frightful Presence evolution. I know I would be shaken if a monkey flies out of a man's butt and then attacks me.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

I still want to find a way to get a flying monkey as a familiar and have the tattoo on my butt.

Be a Summoner. Your Eidolon is a flying monkey, and you manifest it by allowing it to fly out of your butt...
Be sure to pick up the Frightful Presence evolution. I know I would be shaken if a monkey flies out of a man's butt and then attacks me.

You know, things like this are what make my brain lock up.

Then again, it's also rather funny.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

I still want to find a way to get a flying monkey as a familiar and have the tattoo on my butt.

Be a Summoner. Your Eidolon is a flying monkey, and you manifest it by allowing it to fly out of your butt...
Be sure to pick up the Frightful Presence evolution. I know I would be shaken if a monkey flies out of a man's butt and then attacks me.

Why waste time with all that. Just get a regular monkey familiar and get its escape artist score up to an insane level.

Then, it will be perfectly at home in your butt.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Human Diversion wrote:
It looks like I'd have to have the arcane bloodline, and take the improved familiar feat. Is it worth those two things to have a pseudodragon as a familiar?

If you're looking at this as an investment and payoff scenario, the answer is no.

If you're group operates as the Optimal Squad and everything is about either DPR, the answer is definitely no.

If your group puts a value on roleplaying, and you have some ability to laterally approach a problem, then the answer is hell yes!

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:

If you're looking at this as an investment and payoff scenario, the answer is no.

If you're group operates as the Optimal Squad and everything is about either DPR, the answer is definitely no.

If your group puts a value on roleplaying, and you have some ability to laterally approach a problem, then the answer is hell yes!

It's actually for Pathfinder Society. The character in question is a "pair" I play with my girlfriend - she's playing the younger sister arcanist who has to "work hard" to make magic work, and I'm playing the older brother sorcerer who simply has "the gift." We've been taking teamwork feats and now both have the opportunity to get a pseudodragon familiar. I'm leaning toward taking him.


No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. Get a Mephit or Imp.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Human Diversion wrote:
LazarX wrote:

If you're looking at this as an investment and payoff scenario, the answer is no.

If you're group operates as the Optimal Squad and everything is about either DPR, the answer is definitely no.

If your group puts a value on roleplaying, and you have some ability to laterally approach a problem, then the answer is hell yes!

It's actually for Pathfinder Society. The character in question is a "pair" I play with my girlfriend - she's playing the younger sister arcanist who has to "work hard" to make magic work, and I'm playing the older brother sorcerer who simply has "the gift." We've been taking teamwork feats and now both have the opportunity to get a pseudodragon familiar. I'm leaning toward taking him.

Do it. I've had tremendous fun with a sorcerer and a pseudo-dragon familiar in the past.


The Human Diversion wrote:

...

It's actually for Pathfinder Society. ...

Think about the other characters you often see playing at your level in your local games.

Is there usually someone around (other than yourself) that is often casting buffs on the team? If yes, then a UMD wand dragon may not be terribly useful.

Is there usually someone around skilled at sneaky scouting? If yes, then a scout dragon may not be terribly useful.

If the answer to either question is no, you may have a quite useful niche for your dragon.
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El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...

Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...
Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.

I'm pretty sure only the human shaped improved familiars (imp, quasit, lyrakin) can use the wands in PFS

I think the problem with dragons is that their rules are often written to account for the ones with shapeshifting magic. It is like how a dragon can have weapon proficiency when in human form....but this means nothing for the pseudo dragon.

Of course, don't quote me on this. I am not flipping through the CRB and PFS rules page when writing this post or anything.


My problem with advance familiars is the bad guys know what they are , or just plain notice them. If I send my crow to look over the Orc camp , no one notices it. Send a pseudodragon and the Orcs are going to notice.


lemeres wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...
Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.
I'm pretty sure only the human shaped improved familiars (imp, quasit, lyrakin) can use the wands in PFS

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9p51

Dunno why Pseudodragon can't use wands, but those are the rules. You might be able to use Alter Self/Greater Hat of Disguise, but it's better to just get another familiar.


El_Jefe wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...
Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.
I'm pretty sure only the human shaped improved familiars (imp, quasit, lyrakin) can use the wands in PFS

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9p51

Dunno why Pseudodragon can't use wands, but those are the rules. You might be able to use Alter Self/Greater Hat of Disguise, but it's better to just get another familiar.

Again, it seems that they wanted to keep things simple by just restricting it to human-like bipeds. They didn't not want to try to make a rules based definition of opposable thumbs.

And I still cannot get behind the idea that an improved familiar is worthless if it isn't want slinging. While it might not be the 'optimal' choice, you are still getting a creature with blindsight 60 and telepathy 100. That seems worth the price of admission to me, as long as you understand the value of always being able to notice invisible enemies and then quietly plan what to do about those hidden pursuers.


lemeres wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...
Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.
I'm pretty sure only the human shaped improved familiars (imp, quasit, lyrakin) can use the wands in PFS

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9p51

Dunno why Pseudodragon can't use wands, but those are the rules. You might be able to use Alter Self/Greater Hat of Disguise, but it's better to just get another familiar.

Again, it seems that they wanted to keep things simple by just restricting it to human-like bipeds. They didn't not want to try to make a rules based definition of opposable thumbs. ...

Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items? :
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.

Animal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies. In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either. However, an item called out to be used by a specific animal is usable by that animal regardless of slot.

Additionally, animal companions have access to magical item slots, in addition to barding and neck, as listed on the inside front cover of the Animal Archive so long as they select the Extra Item Slot feat. The Animal Magic Item Slots table found in Animal Archive is not a legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.

The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.

I am trying unsuccessfully to locate anything else.

That quote is kinda weird. Says familiars can't activate items other than ion stones. So none of them (even humanoid ones) could use wands. But then I know I've seen a bunch using wands and I'm sure at least some of those have been pseudodragons. Even at GenCon I saw at least 1 (might have been a faerie dragon) and no one has ever said a thing about it.

I'm sure I read that the dragon shapes as well as the humanoids can use wands, but now I can't find it.

lemeres wrote:
... And I still cannot get behind the idea that an improved familiar is worthless if it isn't want slinging. While it might not be the 'optimal' choice, you are still getting a creature with blindsight 60 and telepathy 100. That seems worth the price of admission to me, as long as you understand the value of always being able to notice invisible enemies and then quietly plan what to do about those hidden pursuers.

I quite agree. They make an excellent and worthwhile scout.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart.

Faerie Dragons are at least considered bipeds. And they can fly and deliver stuff. I think they would be awesome.

Hmm


Kydeem:

Michael Brock Post

Quote:

If someone will remind me, after Gen Con, we will add the following:

Wand use doesn't require the Animal Archive for these few improved familiars - brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars - gained with the Improved Familiar feat. They use their master's UMD when activating a wand.

No other activated item may be used, to include scrolls, by any animal companion, familiar, or improved familiar.

That being said, it still hasn't been added yet, but I think this is generally what people are running with.


Of course it's worth it ! Think, you've got to travel with a dragon on your shoulder, how cool is that ?!?!

The guy with the imp will be chased by the villager 'cause imp are Evil so the owner of an imp is evil but you all the children of the town will be all over you to take a glimpse of the guy with the dragon on his shoulder... ;)

Before getting in town paint it in Gold or Silver for a better effect... :p

Sovereign Court

Hmm wrote:
Quote:
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart.

Faerie Dragons are at least considered bipeds. And they can fly and deliver stuff. I think they would be awesome.

Hmm

Where is that from?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The quote is from the FAQ that everyone has been citing. I just pulled it out and bolded faerie dragon in the list. So... you've got creatures that Mike says can use wands with their master's UMD skill, that have lots of slots for magic items if you own animal archive (a worthy purchase -- lots of good stuff in there) that can fly, use telepathy... They are just awesome all around. I mean, just look at all the skills they have!

Your alignment has to be within one step of CG so you can't be lawful, but that's the only limitation. I say go for it.

Hmm

Scarab Sages

They also are 3rd level sorcerers, so they can use any wand of a spell on the sorc/wiz list without rolling UMD.


Hmm... Ok, yes I think that is what I remember. This last time I was just reading the FAQ instead of the thread about the FAQ. In the thread about the FAQ he says that small list can use wands.
I don't understand why the Faerie Dragon is on the list but the Pseudodragon is not. Them's the breaks... It is what it is...

Ok, so can only be a wand familiar if it is a brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, or sprite familiar. To get the Faerie Dragon you need to succeed at a specific PFS scenario (I don't remember which one off the top of my head).

The Pseudodragon still makes a fantastic scout.

And even a pretty decent interpreter with their telepathy.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I guess the thread is semi-derailed, but I don't understand why this Tidepool Dragon, isn't on that list of familiars that can use wands.

It doesn't have UMD as a listed skill, but it is a sorcerer, just like the Faerie Dragon. Maybe it doesn't have hands, but it is hard to tell. It does have a claw attack, and the Faerie Dragon doesn't, but the Pseudodragon doesn't have claws either, so that doesn't seem consistent.

Seems like you are all around better off with the Faerie Dragon for whatever reason they decided to make it mechanically superior to all the other little dragons.


Inevitable Arbiter HAS hands (it even holds a tiny sword) and isn't on the list. It just is what it is...

Imbicatus: I'm not quite sure. It says that it casts spells like a 3rd level sorcerer. As far as I read it, the Faerie Dragon does not have any class levels. Being able to quack doesn't make you a duck, so to speak.


Faerie Dragon is great, but you need a boon to take it in PFS. Ditto Lyrakien Azata.

Sovereign Court

El_Jefe wrote:
Faerie Dragon is great, but you need a boon to take it in PFS. Ditto Lyrakien Azata.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bestiary 2
Animal Companions: allosaurus, arsinoitherium, baboon, compsognathus, gar, glyptodon, hippopotamus, manta ray, megaloceros, megatherium, parasaurolophus, ram, giant snapping turtle, stingray, tylosaurus; Familiars: brownie, compsognathus, lyraken azata, snapping turtle, voidworm protean; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source; Other: all creatures in this book are legal for polymorph effects (including a druid's wild shape ability) within the boundaries of each spell or ability's parameters.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Where does it say that you need a boon to take a faerie dragon familiar in PFS? Did I miss something in the additional resources?

Hmm


Hmm wrote:

Where does it say that you need a boon to take a faerie dragon familiar in PFS? Did I miss something in the additional resources?

Hmm

The Faerie Dragon is in Bestiary 3, under additional resources it says that familiars on page 112 and 113, carbuncle and sprite are legal for play. The Faerie Dragon is not on those pages so it is not legal (It is on page 91)

Sovereign Court

Hmm wrote:

Where does it say that you need a boon to take a faerie dragon familiar in PFS? Did I miss something in the additional resources?

Hmm

In this particular case I may or may not have played in a Pathfinder Society scenario where I may or may not have gotten on the Chronicle Sheet the ability to take a specific pseudodragon familiar.


I have never understood why boons from chronicles are sometimes treated as top secret.

If they make a character build interesting why would you want to waste it by getting something that could be cool for your wizard on a fighter.


Faerie Dragons are smarter, have a breath weapon, better telepathy, and you get them at the same level. Why wouldn't you want one?

Sovereign Court

Hawktitan wrote:

I have never understood why boons from chronicles are sometimes treated as top secret.

If they make a character build interesting why would you want to waste it by getting something that could be cool for your wizard on a fighter.

There are some people who enjoy not knowing a thing about a PFS Scenario before they play it, I try to respect that, although admittedly my above post was a bit facetious.


The Human Diversion wrote:
Hawktitan wrote:

I have never understood why boons from chronicles are sometimes treated as top secret.

If they make a character build interesting why would you want to waste it by getting something that could be cool for your wizard on a fighter.

There are some people who enjoy not knowing a thing about a PFS Scenario before they play it, I try to respect that, although admittedly my above post was a bit facetious.

.

I get that may be enjoyable to not know. It's also frustrating to me as someone who likes to plan out characters. It's great having a Life Oracle who can get an Axe Beak companion! (Not Really). It would be less bad if we were allowed to apply those boons to other characters, but I digress.


The Human Diversion wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Where does it say that you need a boon to take a faerie dragon familiar in PFS? Did I miss something in the additional resources?

Hmm

In this particular case I may or may not have played in a Pathfinder Society scenario where I may or may not have gotten on the Chronicle Sheet the ability to take a specific pseudodragon familiar.

I do not believe a sheet is required for the pseudodragon.

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Hawktitan wrote:
... It's great having a Life Oracle who can get an Axe Beak companion! (Not Really). It would be less bad if we were allowed to apply those boons to other characters ...

I was trying to get a get a group of PFS Tengu PC's together that would have:

Cavalier riding an axebeak
Arcane caster with a hawk familiar
Druid with a roc
Summoner with a bird shaped eidolon
Bard with performance sqwaking

We'd be a Flock Of Crows!

I thought it sounded fantastic. I'm quite sure we could make the builds that would cover all the primary in and out of combat roles. Everyone just looked at me like I had gone completely around the bend (always a possibility).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Where does it say that you need a boon to take a faerie dragon familiar in PFS? Did I miss something in the additional resources?

Hmm

In this particular case I may or may not have played in a Pathfinder Society scenario where I may or may not have gotten on the Chronicle Sheet the ability to take a specific pseudodragon familiar.

I do not believe a sheet is required for the pseudodragon.

.
.
Hawktitan wrote:
... It's great having a Life Oracle who can get an Axe Beak companion! (Not Really). It would be less bad if we were allowed to apply those boons to other characters ...

I was trying to get a get a group of PFS Tengu PC's together that would have:

Cavalier riding an axebeak
Arcane caster with a hawk familiar
Druid with a roc
Summoner with a bird shaped eidolon
Bard with performance sqwaking

We'd be a Flock Of Crows!

I thought it sounded fantastic. I'm quite sure we could make the builds that would cover all the primary in and out of combat roles. Everyone just looked at me like I had gone completely around the bend (always a possibility).

If you think that's bad, you should have seen the looks I got when I tried to make a Female Night Elf Biker Gang in World of Warcraft.


LazarX wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Where does it say that you need a boon to take a faerie dragon familiar in PFS? Did I miss something in the additional resources?

Hmm

In this particular case I may or may not have played in a Pathfinder Society scenario where I may or may not have gotten on the Chronicle Sheet the ability to take a specific pseudodragon familiar.

I do not believe a sheet is required for the pseudodragon.

.
.
Hawktitan wrote:
... It's great having a Life Oracle who can get an Axe Beak companion! (Not Really). It would be less bad if we were allowed to apply those boons to other characters ...

I was trying to get a get a group of PFS Tengu PC's together that would have:

Cavalier riding an axebeak
Arcane caster with a hawk familiar
Druid with a roc
Summoner with a bird shaped eidolon
Bard with performance sqwaking

We'd be a Flock Of Crows!

I thought it sounded fantastic. I'm quite sure we could make the builds that would cover all the primary in and out of combat roles. Everyone just looked at me like I had gone completely around the bend (always a possibility).

If you think that's bad, you should have seen the looks I got when I tried to make a Female Night Elf Biker Gang in World of Warcraft.

We could do the same thing with Nagaji and make a Ball of Snakes!

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