Is there going to be a re-work for the Witch Class?


Homebrew and House Rules

51 to 100 of 107 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I read the OP and all I could think was that we have just encountered the PFRPG equivalent of a social justice warrior.

But back on topic, this is a fantasy game and therefore we do not have to conform to real world equivalents of character classes/races/spells/etc. Some cultural myths of creatures like elves make them out to be tiny, more in line with Pathfinder fey, than the Tolkien inspired elves that D&D has been using since its creation. That doesn't mean that Pathfinder much change to conform, simply that they are using a different idea for what constitutes an elf. The same goes for the witch class and everything else in the game.


Kolokotroni wrote:


That said, given that it follows the fantasy trope, and not the real world religion, trying to create a 'Witch' (Game Term) that 'feels' like a good representation of a Wicca Priestess, would be better served with a different class. Druid Comes to mind, Nature connected divine caster, or maybe just a straight up cleric with domains made to match the desired theme.

I'm not sure how appropriate it is to have an accurate representation of a 20th century Muggle in a fantasy game in the first place. A realistic portrayal of a Wiccan, like a realistic portrayal of a Catholic priest, would have to deal with the fact that flashy magic simply doesn't work in the real world. Anyone who could could actually cast cantrips in the real world would be a shoe-in for winning any of the dozens of the magic-doesn't-really-work prizes such as the million dollar prize sponsored by the James Randi Educational Foundation. Mage hand? Randi has been testing telekinetics literally for decades. Create water? Heck, no one can even find water reliably when they test dowsers.

So, yes, a realistic Wicca Priestess would indeed be better represented by a different class -- commoner, or maybe expert. As would, frankly, a realistic version of everything that isn't best represented by an aristocrat or a warrior.

One of the defining features of Wicca as practiced today is the relative avoidance of most forms of "magic." As defined by the Gardners et al., it's almost a meditation practice instead of a magical one (the word "magic" has in fact been redefined internally precisely because they can't do "magic" as a 19th century folklorist would recognize it). The Gardners, to their credit, did a very good job of pulling "witchcraft" away from its magical (and frankly diabolical) roots in folklore and redefining it as a spiritual practice.

But this means that the idea of a fantasy Wiccan is basically self-contradictory.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

There is a basic reason that the Pathfinder Witch cannot be an accurate reflection of a Wiccan: Wicca is a religion, and thus any game representation of its practicioners would have to be a divine spellcasting class, not an arcane class as the Witch is. But as I see it, only the most narrowly focused divine classes would be unsuitable for that purpose -- you just need to select a compatible deity and/or ethos.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thegreenteagamer wrote:

Witch is a word with dichotomy. When 3/4 people think of a witch, they do not think of the religious connotation. (Personally, if I were Wiccan, I would call myself "a Wiccan" so as to purposefully make the distinction.) They think of the fantasy/horror trope you see in books, movies, or the bastardized combination of the two you see in stuff like True Blood or The Craft.

"Wiccan" by the way is a modern day "New Age" construct, having very little to do with the traditions stamped out by Christianity in the middle ages.

Are we also going to have arugments on whether the traditions to be followed should be Gardnerian or Diannic? Are you also going to put in a requirement that witches should be "sky-clad" or naked when performing rituals?

Wicca does not have the lock on the witch concept... not by a longshot.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Witch class is based on the witch of European folklore and history, and has NOTHING in common with modern Wicca...which as is pointed out above, is a modern New Age creation.

The class is perfect as is...and would loose considerable flavor if re-tooled to appeal to wiccans. Leave it as is.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nighttree wrote:

The Witch class is based on the witch of European folklore and history, and has NOTHING in common with modern Wicca...which as is pointed out above, is a modern New Age creation.

The class is perfect as is...and would loose considerable flavor if re-tooled to appeal to wiccans. Leave it as is.

Interestingly enough there is absolutely notihing preventing someone from creating a Golden Dawn styled character using the Pathfinder witch class. The witch class is just a chassis, the trappings can range all the way from rural hedge witch to urban occultist.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Falantrius wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Paizo probably didn't want to give too many specifics about covens, so that the DM can just make them as they please, instead of being like IT MUST BE LIKE THIS.
Not sure what I can say about most of the comments but I am totally with you what you are saying. We have tried to create decent witches and we just end up creating our own classes. We just hate to do that - I'd love to be part of a group that updated the witch - but based on comments - not sure that would ever happen.

I dont know how many people on the forums could actually help you. I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority of gamers know very little of the wicca religion, so designing a that represents it would be extremely challenging for them.

That said, given that it follows the fantasy trope, and not the real world religion, trying to create a 'Witch' (Game Term) that 'feels' like a good representation of a Wicca Priestess, would be better served with a different class. Druid Comes to mind, Nature connected divine caster, or maybe just a straight up cleric with domains made to match the desired theme. The new Shaman class out of the Advanced Class Guide might also be a solid choice now that I think about it. It might take some retheming, but it might acutally work very well as a representation of a Wicca priest or priestess in a fantasy setting.

Not to mention that the classes are as broad as the lore/traditions Wicca is based on. Druid, Shaman and Witch can represent quite a lot but flavor-wise I feel like they might as well be the same thing half the time.

Also OP's assertions are a bit incorrect. The only things in the original post that I cant think of any means of doing with the rules are Candle Magic and probably a 'book of shadows' situations. But in all honesty in context these are terrible ideas. With Candle Magic, good luck doing that in the middle of a fight, disregarding that it is very narrow and relatively modern concept to fit around a whole class. At best I'd see about making incantations with candles for effect. With Book of Shadows' coven magic is represented well enough and if you really really want one you can use the half-elf archetype and use a book as your bonded object, but having it too deeply rooted into a class or even an archetype has the same problem as teamwork feats.

Personally I think OP's players are jumping the gun while skimming and don't know what lore is actually going into the class, for example the suggestion that there should be more kinds of witches, that they should have positive hexes (blessings) and that they should be able to be male or female, even though mechanically all those things already happen.


Falantrius wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Paizo probably didn't want to give too many specifics about covens, so that the DM can just make them as they please, instead of being like IT MUST BE LIKE THIS.
Not sure what I can say about most of the comments but I am totally with you what you are saying. We have tried to create decent witches and we just end up creating our own classes. We just hate to do that - I'd love to be part of a group that updated the witch - but based on comments - not sure that would ever happen.

Sounds like you and your friends have several developed ideas on what you would like to see in a Witch class. I bet with a little work, you could compile your ideas and even make a Pathfinder compatible alternate class book - and maybe even sell it on RPGNow or something!

I've never been happy myself with any Witch class I've ever run across, starting with third-party 2nd edition material, believe it or not.

Good luck!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

it doesn't matter in any event. Classes are purely metagame mechanical constructs. You come up with what you think a witch is, use the available mechanics to make the closest thing to it, then your character calls him/herself a witch, because nobody in-universe knows that classes even exist, much less what yours is.


Actually I talked to my fiance who knows more about this than me and compared notes. Every concept OP proposed is already mechanically in the game without even leaving the witch class so long as you're not hung up on the words like 'hex' to mean one thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zhayne wrote:
it doesn't matter in any event. Classes are purely metagame mechanical constructs. You come up with what you think a witch is, use the available mechanics to make the closest thing to it, then your character calls him/herself a witch, because nobody in-universe knows that classes even exist, much less what yours is.

That doesn't necessarily HAVE to be the case. People could be aware of Class and other game mechanical constructs in the same way we are of IQ (although I don't hear about IQ as much as I used to in the 1970s), although it would take people with some expertise in analyzing other people to perform an accurate assessment, and people out to hunt witches McCarthy/Puritan-style would likely ignore the finer distinctions even if they were aware of them.


Not sure if it has been adressed in the thread yet, but the Witch class is not restricted to females. No class (aside from a few prestige classes perhaps) is restricted to any gender.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
it doesn't matter in any event. Classes are purely metagame mechanical constructs. You come up with what you think a witch is, use the available mechanics to make the closest thing to it, then your character calls him/herself a witch, because nobody in-universe knows that classes even exist, much less what yours is.

That doesn't necessarily HAVE to be the case. People could be aware of Class and other game mechanical constructs in the same way we are of IQ (although I don't hear about IQ as much as I used to in the 1970s), although it would take people with some expertise in analyzing other people to perform an accurate assessment, and people out to hunt witches McCarthy/Puritan-style would likely ignore the finer distinctions even if they were aware of them.

Except you end up with an OOTs scenerio where there is a "Fighter's School" and "Bard's School". While many people will learn SIMILIAR things, very learn exactly the same way (hence the awesomeness of archetypes and a multitude of classes) and even fewer are called the same thing. The word "witch" for instance means different things to different people and invoke different images. So a person in a very "judeo-christian-esque" world would probably call themselves a doctor or a healer or a mere priest while a place that is very liberal or more "wiccan based" they may just call themselves a witch.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Threeshades wrote:
Not sure if it has been adressed in the thread yet, but the Witch class is not restricted to females. No class (aside from a few prestige classes perhaps) is restricted to any gender.

However, a few of the magic items designed for the class require you to crossdress if you want to make use of them as a male witch.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Haskol wrote:

I read the OP and all I could think was that we have just encountered the PFRPG equivalent of a social justice warrior.

I don't know, I usually see the whole SJW thing being used as a pejorative that people sling at anyone raising their head to talk about issues that they raise as grievances (the seriousness of which is always a matter of perspective), so maybe it fits, but I've just seen a bit too much of it lately as a rough, reactionary means to stifle any sort of discussion.

And that's my derail.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Besides, Glinda was hardly a good witch…

True true - bad example - but there are SO few good witches in movies. I believe "Hansel and Gretal" - the recent Movie - had a good witch that was closest to what I am thinking.


I3igAl wrote:
Falantrius wrote:
We have Wicca friends and the depiction is totally negative in the way the Warlock and Witch are put together in our opinion.

Where is a Warlock in Pathfinder?

Falantrius> No - I am referring to a male witch - not a class.

Falantrius wrote:
Hexes are usually used for negative purposes - blessing for positive purposes. Currently implementation lists only Hexes.

Pathfinder has Hexes for positive purposes. "Fortune" is one example. Using two different subsystems for the Witches special abillities would make the game much more clunky and interfere with their compatility.

Falantrius> Aware of that - my opinion is that there should be more choices for a good witch. The Hex list is pretty limited.

Falantrius wrote:
Candle magic - similar to potions except these work only while the candle is burning. Once consumed, its gone. For example, a candle that does protection from evil, causes sleep, increase in wisdom, love attraction, inspiration, zone of truth, etc.

3.0 D&D had a Candle caster.

Falantrius> The nice thing about Candle Magic - is that it would be a nice draw to play a witch. Unlike a scroll - candle magic allows you to give a "Scroll" to someone who cant use magic device - the area of the spell in the candle moves with the candle and it ifs targeted - then it gets targeted to the person holding the candle. Once the candle has burned, it is gone - thus the duration of the spell can be adjusted by shorting the candle. Candles allow the creator to "adjust" - target, duration and area of effect by putting it in a candle.

Overall, the witch class feels underpowered (comment also stated by my players over the last few years of play) - in per level special abilities. Which is one reason I suggest others like candle magic, etc. Then limits the spells to Witch. So I just feel that there should be some subclasses for Dark, Light, Gray, Green, etc. witches - expand the hexes available for choice so there are more for Good/Bad/Nature/etc. witches - expand the spell list so there are spells for each type and it could be a pretty good class for a choice.

At least, that's how I see it. - Others will, of course, have other opinions.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Falantrius wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Besides, Glinda was hardly a good witch…
True true - bad example - but there are SO few good witches in movies. I believe "Hansel and Gretal" - the recent Movie - had a good witch that was closest to what I am thinking.

Spellcasters in general are generally villains like the Snake Priest and Evil Wizard for the heavily muscled Conans and Hercules to take down. It's really not until recently that this trope has been reversed.


Avatar-1 wrote:

The way you describe white witches is actually in the game. Call it something other than a hex if you like, but they have the healing hex, the fortune hex, the ward hex, and other beneficial hexes.

It's not unheard of to play the class of druid or shaman from the book and have your character tell everyone they are a witch, either.

Falantrius> I'm good with playing other classes can calling it something else. I'm just thinking that if they expand the spell list and hex list for white/dark/green witches - then a player could play an actual witch. As its currently defined, players seem to feel its a weaker choice and opt out. If they want a witch in my current games, they look at the witch - then feel too restricted with little benefits for the restrictions - then end up playing a sorcerer, druid, mage or magus. No one has opted to actually play the witch class in our games yet. And that speaks "words" to me about the class.


Falantrius wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:

The way you describe white witches is actually in the game. Call it something other than a hex if you like, but they have the healing hex, the fortune hex, the ward hex, and other beneficial hexes.

It's not unheard of to play the class of druid or shaman from the book and have your character tell everyone they are a witch, either.

Falantrius> I'm good with playing other classes can calling it something else. I'm just thinking that if they expand the spell list and hex list for white/dark/green witches - then a player could play an actual witch. As its currently defined, players seem to feel its a weaker choice and opt out. If they want a witch in my current games, they look at the witch - then feel too restricted with little benefits for the restrictions - then end up playing a sorcerer, druid, mage or magus. No one has opted to actually play the witch class in our games yet. And that speaks "words" to me about the class.

Wow, you want to play an "actual" Witch, good luck casting "actual" spells. Just because the Pathfinder class of Witch doesn't meet your idealized version of what a witch is doesn't mean the class needs to be redesigned.

Anyone who thinks a Witch is a weak class has no idea what they are talking about. They are one of the most powerful classes in the game.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

I largely agree with the responses following the original post. However, I do agree with the original post on one thing:

<deleted>

Finally, while I am here, allow me to put in my vote for a Sorcerous Witch (Sorcerer Archetype or Hybrid Class) that casts like a Sorcerer, but has Hexes (later Major and Grand Hexes) and uses the Witch Spell List. That way, you can portray a Witch who can't Spell, but who can...

I'm with you there. Something should be done to make the witch a more interesting class to play

a) As I stated, I would still like there to be a "Book of Shadows" to learn spells from but after that - they should cast just like a Sorcerer. Move all their spells to the Sorcerer spell list or list they are restricted to witches...and let the witch select from the sorcerer spell list. That would expand the options without giving them bloodline powers.

b) Expand the list of Hexes available for choice.

c) Expand the spell list OR let the witch select a limited set of spells from elsewhere. I'm fine with limiting what witches cant do. But letting them pick from cleric, magic/sorcerer list should be an option - even if limited.

d) Add some spice to the class to make it more interesting to play - like Candle Magic, Crystal Balls, etc. that are cheaper or free to make as a witch as a given level. Such as creating a book of shadows when they reach 12th (effectively getting write scroll/write magic at level 12 only). It doesn't specifically have to be there but something added other than HEX to make it interesting to play. Even the Ninja is allowed to pull more from the Thief lists.

I would be happy to write it up - if it even had a chance of publication.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Falantrius wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:

The way you describe white witches is actually in the game. Call it something other than a hex if you like, but they have the healing hex, the fortune hex, the ward hex, and other beneficial hexes.

It's not unheard of to play the class of druid or shaman from the book and have your character tell everyone they are a witch, either.

Falantrius> I'm good with playing other classes can calling it something else. I'm just thinking that if they expand the spell list and hex list for white/dark/green witches - then a player could play an actual witch. As its currently defined, players seem to feel its a weaker choice and opt out. If they want a witch in my current games, they look at the witch - then feel too restricted with little benefits for the restrictions - then end up playing a sorcerer, druid, mage or magus. No one has opted to actually play the witch class in our games yet. And that speaks "words" to me about the class.

To be more accurate, it speaks more about your group, than it does about the class. Since as a PFS judge, I don't deal with just one group of players, I can tell you that I've seen a wide variety of witches. From the healing hedge witch to the wuxia White haired grappler.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
pogie wrote:
Falantrius wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:

The way you describe white witches is actually in the game. Call it something other than a hex if you like, but they have the healing hex, the fortune hex, the ward hex, and other beneficial hexes.

It's not unheard of to play the class of druid or shaman from the book and have your character tell everyone they are a witch, either.

Falantrius> I'm good with playing other classes can calling it something else. I'm just thinking that if they expand the spell list and hex list for white/dark/green witches - then a player could play an actual witch. As its currently defined, players seem to feel its a weaker choice and opt out. If they want a witch in my current games, they look at the witch - then feel too restricted with little benefits for the restrictions - then end up playing a sorcerer, druid, mage or magus. No one has opted to actually play the witch class in our games yet. And that speaks "words" to me about the class.

Wow, you want to play an "actual" Witch, good luck casting "actual" spells. Just because the Pathfinder class of Witch doesn't meet your idealized version of what a witch is doesn't mean the class needs to be redesigned.

Anyone who thinks a Witch is a weak class has no idea what they are talking about. They are one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Eh, not particulairly.

Yes, they can be VERY deadly, but honestly they are a very one trick pony.

Their spell list is the second weakest out of all the full casters (honestly I would say the Shaman is the only class with a possibly weaker spell list), and many of their hexes are 1 shot SoS hexes. granted, the triad of Cackle+evil Eye+ misfortune makes them VERY GOOD at SoS type spells,if they run into an enemy immune to mind affecting and necromancy type effects (i.e. undead) they tend to suddenly drop in power fast (unless the Witch is a Gravewalker Witch)


K177Y C47 wrote:

List of Beneficial Hexes:

<deleted>

While I agree the list is a good start - the hex list needs some expanding in my opinion. As a good witch, my opinion is that since by 20th I can have 11 hexes Plus those I get from Feats (Extra Hex). I should have near double that to select from - thus the list per style should be about 20 to select from and I feel its a lot shorter than that.

As a green witch or forest witch, I need things to protect the forest - without having to play a druid. A green witch is more like a magus - so they could play a magus - and just call them a green witch - limited to the magus list OR house rule they can only select from the DRUID list. The more I think about it - the more the witch feels like a template that I can put on top of a SORCERER(black/white), DRUID(green), MAGUS(Gray) or CLERIC(black/white).


If you are dead set on teh whole "Wiccan Witches" thing here you go:

"Black Witch"- Sorcerer/Summoner/Witch/Wizard/Arcanist/Oracle/Shaman

"White Witch"- Witch (hedge Witch)/Arcanist (white mage)/Oracle/Shaman

"Green Witch"- Druid/Shaman/Hunter/Witch


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have to grant you credit Falantrius; I've found most of the responses to be overly curt, but you seem to be taking them without offense. Were I the recipient, I'd have been off put by the crowd's tone.

It's also good that everyone can look at a class; and rename as they will.
Hell, my Bard defers to himself as manipulating vibrations from unconscious (Sorceror-like) impulses that come to him.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Honestly I like to view the bard as a intuitive scientist if you will.

Based on super string theory, everything (all forms of energy, including mass) is consistent of quarks, and these quarks are simply nothing more than supy tiny "strings" vibrating in multiple dimensions simulaniously. The different quarks are effectly just "notes" on these extra-dimensional super strings.

A bard would effectively be doing nothing more than manipulating the notes of the strings to create magical effects. They, of course, would be doing it intuitively :P


Wouldn't that argument be made for all spontaneous casters?

Don't get me wrong; I agree with you.


True :P I just like it with bards because it is like they are playing "music on a super-cosmic scale and creating reality warping symphonies" and it allows the bard to "be like a virtusio violinist, playing the strings of the universe and manipulating them with fluid grace and charm"


I can see your point; I think it didn't click at first because for some reason I tend to divorce my bards from Music. Blasphamy I know.

Bards I've considered so far have been:
1) An Orator who focuses on Enchantments exclusively (Rite Publishing's 101 Cantrips helped make it so). Hopelessly 1 trick pony; and Undead = Groan, but I like playing it nonetheless. This Bard was more of a demanding Noble Scion type, very Lelouch (Code Geass), using his words to force others' behaviors to change.

2) The above mentioned Vibration manipulator used spells that could be argued to include kinetic qualities; such as Expeditious Retreat or feather fall. I worked some Eldritch Bloodline (Arcane) for Force spells, and effects. He was an Archeologist, and had No: Performances, Illusions, or Enchantments. Essentially trying to run away from the Archetypal Bard picture.

3) The last was an Undine Bard with aquamancy, enchantment, personal illusions, and the like; trying to be the classic Siren/Nereid. Basically my vision of a Sorceror-bloodline style, but focused ABSOLUTELY on the powers of your bloodline. I prefer the focused powers, since it feels like Bloodlines are my source, instead of my jump start, you know? (I have issues with Sorcerors of Celestial bloodlines learning Protection from Good, for example.)


Nathanael Love wrote:

Eh, my brother is playing a Witch in my current game and was looking at the Coven Hex, but it doesn't appear that there is any real advantage to joining a Coven at all.

It could be made into a very cool option for the class, but I'm not sure its much more than a throw away as it stands.

The stupid definition says "The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes."

Lame

There are a few things we do for a coven:
a) Witches must get their new spells from a coven and the spells available are only those from that coven's "Book of Shadow"
b) When each coven is created, it requires a 12th level witch or higher to create a "Book of Shadows" - which is basically the creation of a Mage's book. Spells in the book are limited to all those spells from the coven witches. Witches get all they need to read and write scrolls at 12th.
c) Meetings with the coven - allow the witches in the coven to add spells to the "Book" as cost to get new spells from the "Book" - while its not required to get a new spell - it looks bad if you keep taking from the "Book" without giving.
d) We changed Witch to be based on sorcerers - not mages
e) Witches of 3rd level or higher can create athame - which they can use to put spells into candles, gems, orbs, and other objects (that's a bigger can of worms that I don't want to get into the details of)- off topic here.

f) Coven witches can tap into goddess and god spells by doing a ritual with the coven. Ritual checks allow the coven to do the following:

1) Combine with witches of the same coven (DC = 10+ spell level + # witches in the coven)
2) Combine with Nature (DC 13 + Spell level) - DC grants spell level bonus - 0-1(+1 level), 2-4(+2), 5-7(+3),8-10(+4), 11-13(+5)
3) Failure to Combine - causes damage to all in the ritual = combined bonus + Spell level) with Will DC (15+Spell level) for half damage. Spell slots used to cast the spell are divided across witches in the ritual.
4) Harnessing Upper or Higher level spells - Unknown spells to the coven are = DC = 21 + spell level -1 for each combining witch
5) Casting time = ritual casting X # of participants X Spell level
Ritual time = Normal casting = Free then ritual casting = 1 min
Normal casting = 1 Standard then ritual casting = 3 min
Normal casting = Full Rd then ritual casting = 10 min
Normal casting = ? then Ritual casting = 10 min x normal
6) Circles in rituals area of the circle increase with the ritual - we have just been increasing the radius of the circle per participant but I am sure there is a better way to do it. Thus a coven could create a circle of protection that is can cover a town and that would last - we haven't got a good formula for that yet.

The above just are some examples of what we are doing - but hopefully that could give you something to work with to define your own. I am sure others are going to "jump all over it" but we are having fun with it this way.


K177Y C47 wrote:

The Necromancer's Grimoire Secrets of the Witch is probably the most useful thing if your trying to really push that coven thing...

The green hag class is kinda wonky and a bit on the powerful side, but the new hexes and Coven Magic system is actually pretty nifty...

This is awesome - I'd love to have been part of review and writing of it. If there is a second one - I'd love to add content to it.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Falantrius wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Paizo probably didn't want to give too many specifics about covens, so that the DM can just make them as they please, instead of being like IT MUST BE LIKE THIS.
Not sure what I can say about most of the comments but I am totally with you what you are saying. We have tried to create decent witches and we just end up creating our own classes. We just hate to do that - I'd love to be part of a group that updated the witch - but based on comments - not sure that would ever happen.

Falantrius, was the only reason you decided to post on the boards was because of this topic?

Just curious

Partly - because we are passionate about the topic and without voice - there is no change.

No been reading for years - but whenever I post - I get "gang piled" and people just hone in on mistakes that I made in the posting like witches being female - which was an error on my part. So posting isn't a lot of fun - best way to avoid it is to just not post.


Gingerbreadman wrote:
Falantrius wrote:


First, we think the Witch class should be either male of female. Just light wizards can be. The way its depicted - the class needs to be female.

That's sexism!

And besides that only evil witches should have a book of shadows every one knows shadows are evil. Give us male while witches a book of light, to guide our way to enlightenment.
/sarcasm

I have wicca friends, too. But they are open minded and do not freak out about RPG stuff because they know it is not about them. And they do not have a magic book (however called) because they follow a tradition older than the written word, taught from one to the other by narration.

That was a mistake on my part - partly due to the brews I was drinking that night. I didn't think I was "freaking" out - my comments on the class are not based on wicca but suggestions to make the witch class better than it is today. As it is written today, my player groups always select druid, cleric, sorcerer and magus after reviewing the class (then call themselves witches) - with a feeling its too restricted for what you gain. To me that says something about the class. I'm still hoping it gets re-worked and improved. Hopefully some of the suggestions others and I have put in this forum - have an impact for change. If that happens - then I am glad I started the thread.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Seranov wrote:


That said, given that it follows the fantasy trope, and not the real world religion, trying to create a 'Witch' (Game Term) that 'feels' like a good representation of a Wicca Priestess, would be better served with a different class. Druid Comes to mind, Nature connected divine caster, or maybe just a straight up cleric with domains made to match the desired theme. The new Shaman class out of the Advanced Class Guide might also be a solid choice now that I think about it. It might take some retheming, but it might acutally work very well as a representation of a Wicca priest or priestess in a fantasy setting.

I like that idea too.


Tranquilis wrote:
Falantrius wrote:
Seranov wrote:
Paizo probably didn't want to give too many specifics about covens, so that the DM can just make them as they please, instead of being like IT MUST BE LIKE THIS.
Not sure what I can say about most of the comments but I am totally with you what you are saying. We have tried to create decent witches and we just end up creating our own classes. We just hate to do that - I'd love to be part of a group that updated the witch - but based on comments - not sure that would ever happen.

Sounds like you and your friends have several developed ideas on what you would like to see in a Witch class. I bet with a little work, you could compile your ideas and even make a Pathfinder compatible alternate class book - and maybe even sell it on RPGNow or something!

I've never been happy myself with any Witch class I've ever run across, starting with third-party 2nd edition material, believe it or not.

Good luck!

The material we are using is on d20 called "way of the witch"

Check it out - its got some good ideas in there.

http://www.amazon.com/Way-Witch-Janet-Pack/dp/1929474393/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 &qid=1411011714&sr=8-1&keywords=way+of+the+witch


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Falantrius wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Eh, my brother is playing a Witch in my current game and was looking at the Coven Hex, but it doesn't appear that there is any real advantage to joining a Coven at all.

It could be made into a very cool option for the class, but I'm not sure its much more than a throw away as it stands.

The stupid definition says "The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes."

Lame

There are a few things we do for a coven:
a) Witches must get their new spells from a coven and the spells available are only those from that coven's "Book of Shadow"
b) When each coven is created, it requires a 12th level witch or higher to create a "Book of Shadows" - which is basically the creation of a Mage's book. Spells in the book are limited to all those spells from the coven witches. Witches get all they need to read and write scrolls at 12th.
c) Meetings with the coven - allow the witches in the coven to add spells to the "Book" as cost to get new spells from the "Book" - while its not required to get a new spell - it looks bad if you keep taking from the "Book" without giving.
d) We changed Witch to be based on sorcerers - not mages
e) Witches of 3rd level or higher can create athame - which they can use to put spells into candles, gems, orbs, and other objects (that's a bigger can of worms that I don't want to get into the details of)- off topic here.

f) Coven witches can tap into goddess and god spells by doing a ritual with the coven. Ritual checks allow the coven to do the following:

1) Combine with witches of the same coven (DC = 10+ spell level + # witches in the coven)
2) Combine with Nature (DC 13 + Spell level) - DC grants spell level bonus - 0-1(+1...

you keep bring to stuff in this book of shadows thing.

It's already been pointed out the character class isn't based on Wicca by any stretch of the imagination.

"The book of shadows" is just as relevant as anything written by L.Ron Hubbard.
and Scientologists don't demand that anything similar to their religion bend to their definition of it.

IF Paizo or another publisher chose to use "book of shadows" they would probably need publishing permission from from whoever owns the Gardnerian text rights and/or the creators of "Charmed" or both.

As written, The character class gets it's spells from it's parton via its familiar.

There is no Book.

That would be wizards.


No offense Falantrius but your description of the 'problems' with translating Wicca with the witch class feel like you don't know much about the class/game beyond skimming and/or not experienced with how all this works in general. The overall proposed implementation would make things suck as an adventurer or get busted really fast.

As I said before, most of these themes already exist in the game without leaving the witch class. Others that I think wouldn't really work for flavor or practicality;

Covens depending on one book of shadows quickly became obsolete and as far as I can tell has no real older lore to back it. I think both from a flavor and practicality standpoint this would just make immobile witches that don't go adventuring. As a bonded witch they'd get their own book which functions like a witch's familiar.

Overall the description of coven magic makes me cringe because mechanically its easy to abuse, more annoying to track and has the same community problems that teamwork feats have. I recommend using incatations for group magic. Incantations are functionally spells that are cast by using time, items and participants.

Craft Wonderous item creates a lot of things mentioned if you dig in Ultimate equipment.

Some of the stuff you mentioned seems like really conplicated means to do stuff that kinda already exists.

Don't let a lot of low levels cast beyond their spell levels. Its not a good idea as it is way too powerful.

While we're on the subject, any ideas on making a Golden Dawn Wizard? It didn't cross my mind until just now and I'm actually unsure as to where to start with that theme.


What I really do not understand is the idea of the "good" hexes being to few.

Should I make another witch and go the "white" route I would see plenty of possibilities, at least among the normal hexes.

- Aura of purity
- cauldron
- Fortune
- Healing
- peacebond
- Soothsayer
- Ward

In addition there are quite some additional hexes that are neutral, so a good witch could take them, as well. And some I did not include because I'd see them a green. For me every witch, more so the good ones, has a green touch but I kept those hexes separate because others seem to view that differently.


While I agree with the concept that the class is pretty well designed in general, I would like to mention: I think the thing with the Hexes (and the thing with the class called "witch") is that it's just linguistically jarring to the OP.

In his terminology, hexes are automatically bad, and witches are automatically coven-oriented spirit-worshiping religious meditants with ritual and iconography devoted to their spiritual ideal of doing no harm whatsoever.

It would be like, to most of us, granting paladins an ability called "brutal, hateful, gory murder"* while leaving them required lawful good - highly dissonant. Or like a medical doctor examining the heal skill**.

That said, I disagree with the OP's assertion for many of the reasons listed.

That said, I'm glad you're here OP. Considering this is the Homebrew forum, I hope you find what you're looking for!

(I'd strongly recommend the Druid or Shaman, however, most especially re-flavoring the nomenclature of the Shaman's abilities. The arcanist might be really neat, too, if you can get hexes on it.)

* This is neither social commentary nor a rejection of the paladin class. This is merely a mild joke.
** Okay, I may be wrong on this one. I'm not actually a medical doctor.


OP, I also tend to agree with the majority of replies here that the Witch is a great class as is, not to mention VERY powerful (seriously, it is a Tier 1 class, if you know what that means).

Although I wanted to give some help so that maybe you will find something closer to what you envision.

A few months back a Kickstarter ran for a Pathfinder supplement called Strange Brew, giving a bevy of new options to play a Witch in Pathfinder, it might provide what you are looking for. The Kickstarter is over, however I'm sure the product will be available for sale sometime soon (probably here on Paizo too). Here are the links you will find useful.

Kickstarter Page

Discussion Thread

Hope this helps.


Falantrius, if you're not afraid to adapt old material, there is one (fan-generated) Witch class for the D20 system using a Book of Shadows in Liber Mysterium. I used it together with Green Ronin's The Witch's Handbook in an 3.5 FR game (but probably will update the character to a Shaman in the future). The class's balance is a bit dodgy, though.


I'll just leave this here.

You have some ideas that do interest me Falantrius - candle casting, better coven rules. As far as the Patron goes, I actually like that it is very rules-light. In this way, the witch's relationship with their patron can be defined however the GM and player desire - whether it be as distant as the relationship between a cleric and their god, or as close as an artifact they keep in their breast-pocket.

The witch is by far my favorite class; the changes I made which are linked above seek to further untether the character from having any one aspect of the class define them, for good or ill. That is done by the actions of the witch themself.

If you do not like the use of the word 'hex' to describe a witch's abilities, why not use a different one? I suggest incantation or invocation, though those words unfortunately lack the succinctness of the original.

As far as the 'book of shadows' goes; I could see a coven of witches creating a book of scrolls in order to pass knowledge to each other. The scrolls are only to be used to teach a coven member a new spell. This would be a valuable item for a coven, as new members could rapidly be taught essential spells. The student, of course, would have to assist in having a new scroll made for each they use.


Falantrius wrote:
Gingerbreadman wrote:
Falantrius wrote:


First, we think the Witch class should be either male of female. Just light wizards can be. The way its depicted - the class needs to be female.

That's sexism!

And besides that only evil witches should have a book of shadows every one knows shadows are evil. Give us male while witches a book of light, to guide our way to enlightenment.
/sarcasm

I have wicca friends, too. But they are open minded and do not freak out about RPG stuff because they know it is not about them. And they do not have a magic book (however called) because they follow a tradition older than the written word, taught from one to the other by narration.

That was a mistake on my part - partly due to the brews I was drinking that night. I didn't think I was "freaking" out - my comments on the class are not based on wicca but suggestions to make the witch class better than it is today. As it is written today, my player groups always select druid, cleric, sorcerer and magus after reviewing the class (then call themselves witches) - with a feeling its too restricted for what you gain. To me that says something about the class. I'm still hoping it gets re-worked and improved. Hopefully some of the suggestions others and I have put in this forum - have an impact for change. If that happens - then I am glad I started the thread.

It won't be reworked. There has been more noise made about classes that actually need help, and they did not get changed. The witch is actually not a bad class. What they might do is add more archetypes similar to what you want, but the witch base class won't see any official rules changes. However there is Pathfinder Unchained, and that may have some alternatives.

It is good that you finally started posted, and dont get discouraged if nobody agrees with you. Sometimes it just works out that way. Just pay attention to why people disagree when they do.


Here are some of our pathfinder coven rules.

A coven requires atleast 3 witches. The level of the coven is equal to the level of the coven leader plus 1per two additional members minus 1. A coven has access to a grimoire called a book of shadows. Within a book of shadows are a set of rituals which require a minimum of three witches to perform. The highest level ritual the coven may cast is equal to the coven level.

To cast a ritual, the coven must prepare an area requiring an 3 hours of uninterupted preparation per level of ritual. If the preparation is interrupted, the coven must begin from the beginning. The casting time of the ritual is 10 minutes /level of ritual. If the ritual is interupted, a concentration check must be made. Dc= 15 plus ritual level. First made by the leader. If he makes his he adds a +2 plus 2 more per level lower than leader. If any concentration check is failed, then the ritual fails and all consumables are lost. The dc of the ritual is 15 + 3×ritual level. The coven leader makes a d20 roll adding their witch level and intelligence modifier. Also add each other participants witch level divided by 3, rounding down. During the ritual the leader can not benifit from the fortune hex. The leader must take a full round action to continue the ritual. While all other participants must use a move action to continue their part of the ritual. Thus allowing them to use a standard to defend the leader. Albeit having to make a cincentration check.

The first ritual that all covens have and make use of is called "Blood of the coven". This is what ties the coven together. Once the ritual is completed, all participating witches are blood bound to each other. When one member takes damage all others of the coven know about it. In fact all members know the direction of all other coven members. Also while within 30 feet/coven level from the leader, each member has fast healing 1 for every 4 levels of the coven. The leader has regeneration 1, once the coven reaches 10 and an additional 1 for every 5 levels above 10. The downside to being a member of a coven is if your lower level than the leader, then to save against a spell cast by the leader increases by the coven level. The leader's spells are also harder to resist by those not of the coven. The dc of a leader's spell increases by 1 plus an aditional 1 for every 5 coven levels. A coven leader also gains a bonus to illusions cast by members of their coven = to the coven level/2.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

This thread: Baba Yaga is disappoint.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Falantrius wrote:
I'm just thinking that if they expand the spell list and hex list for white/dark/green witches - then a player could play an actual witch

You *are* playing an actual witch. Class is not concept, concept is not class.


Falantrius wrote:
I'm just thinking that if they expand the spell list and hex list for white/dark/green witches - then a player could play an actual witch

Except that what you are describing is not an "actual witch"....it's a modern wiccan version of a witch...which has little to nothing in common with the historic witch of folklore.

The class, as written actually handles the traditional witch of European folklore fairly well...with the exception that a witch would seldom be considered to be anything but evil in alignment.

Actually the Night Hag comes closest to the earliest examples of a "witch" in European folklore, but later stories include humans learning "witch craft"....so it actually is the closest to an "actual witch" that I have seen in an RPG so far.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thegreenteagamer wrote:

Witch is a word with dichotomy. When 3/4 people think of a witch, they do not think of the religious connotation. (Personally, if I were Wiccan, I would call myself "a Wiccan" so as to purposefully make the distinction.) They think of the fantasy/horror trope you see in books, movies, or the bastardized combination of the two you see in stuff like True Blood or The Craft.

Also, just because one group of people identifies with the word witch, does not mean that it has a monopoly on the word and it cannot be used for any other meaning. Especially when said group of peoples, according to Wikipedia, has only existed as a religious affiliation since 1954. (Oh, yes, there are Proto-Wiccan Pagan religions dating much farther back than that, but they did not call themselves "witches") The word "Witch" meanwhile dates as far back as Old English, several centuries before the word's use as a religious self-identifier.

Pathfinder's use of the word Witch, as far as I understand, is in the older, literature inspired meaning.

Thank you for putting forward such a point far more eloquently than myself or others may have approached with it.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Falantrius, your mistake is paralleling the fantasy game Pathfinder class of 'witch' with wiccanism in the first place. It is instead meant to reflect popular international imagery and folklore of the (to me) classic eastern European witch of myth, such as Baba Yaga or other such stories.

As you cite, there are so many NON similarities that it is pretty obvious that the real world religion was in no way a foundation for the class nor was it intended to represent it.

Just like clerics are not supposed to represent any real world religious institutions or practitioners.

Obviously feel free to alter any part of the game for your home or friends use any way you see fit but I don't think the game writers were looking to represent wiccanism in their game with a class and you should not make the mistake that the witch class is that.

And while I am not a wiccan I have friends I play the game with who are and they have 0 problem with the game class. They know it is a game class and not a representation of their personal faith or practices any more than the wizard or paladin are.

1 to 50 of 107 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Is there going to be a re-work for the Witch Class? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.