Ok so I personally feel 9th level casters and potentially manifesters are just too powerful for your normal campaign setting. Often times I hear stories of the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid doing insane stuff at higher levels that just seem like why would you play any other class when you can just wish for more wishes or warp the universe to your desire, or heck make your own!.
So I wanted my new setting to be strictly limited to 6th level casters.
For arcane this means: Bard, Magus, Skald, and Summoners.
For divine this means: Inquisitors, Hunter, Paladin, Ranger, and Warpriest.
Alchemist and Investigator not being proper 6ths but allowed.
So to the advice for this part.
1. Do you think with those options the parties won't feel like they can't cover all their needs? Healing, DPR, Tanking, Skill-Monkey, Party Face, etc.
2. Do you think 9th level psionics are as broken and op as 9th level spells? I am fond of the psion and psionics in general so I feel my love for the style is blinding me.
I was considering running as a Dragon Age like Inquisition style world where Divine magic, their churches and armies have begun to persecute arcane casters and this is why we do not have witches, wizards, sorcerers and the like. To explain why no Clerics or Druids. Not every god agrees with this overly aggressive kill all arcane users way of thinking so they deny their clerics their full powers, which is why we get Paladins, Inquisitors, and Warpriest(Clerics basically). As even the gods who support these views don't want to give too much power to their followers when it might turn against them. Druids do not exist because nature is about balance and with the world shifting to divine over arcane the balance is thrown out of wack reducing them to the Hunter class.
Do you think this would be a good idea?
Can you give suggestions for fun plots to take place in a world Arcane users have to mostly hide what they are doing. Sure the churches know what they are doing and that the bards and so forth exist but only go after them if they begin to upset the status quo(?). At least till they are ready to wipe out all arcane users in the end.
EDIT: It was an oversight and I am banning them. I was going to ban the Summoners, but that just leaves Arcane with Bard, Skald, and Magus and that seems very pitiful when it comes to magical support.
ALSO I cannot make new posts for some reason.
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Jim Big Stupid Fighter will still feel mostly useless outside of hitting things with his stick of choice, but the disparity will be less pronounced. I personally believe that removing 9th level spellcasters makes the game grittier while still maintaining a high-fantasy feel. And that's a good thing, imo.
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Oracle is a 9th level caster and summoner is 6th level on steroids (dont even want to think of master summoner in such a setting) - I'd rething those two.
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1. Do you think with those options the parties won't feel like they can't cover all their needs? Healing, DPR, Tanking, Skill-Monkey, Party Face, etc.
I think you'll be fine in this regard, especially with the new hybrid classes that expand out the options. If 3PP are allowed then I can't imagine you'll have any issues whatsoever.
2. Do you think 9th level psionics are as broken and op as 9th level spells? I am fond of the psion and psionics in general so I feel my love for the style is blinding me.
They're roughly equivalent. A Psion is much closer to a Sorcerer than to a Bard in terms of power and flexibility, and deserves to be categorized appropriately.
and this is why we do not have witches, wizards, sorcerers and the like.
You don't need an explanation; it could be characters with this kind of power just don't exist in your setting. It only becomes an issue if you want this option to be available to NPC's and not PC's, but even that isn't outrageous.
Do you think this would be a good idea?
Seems workable to me. I'd be mindful of the Summoner, though. Although he's technically a 6-level spellcaster, he has access to many 7-9 wizard spells that have been level-adjusted to fit on his progression. I'm on the fence (leaning towards "no") over whether you should allow him or not. Edit: I just noticed you've okayed the Oracle... he's decidedly a 9-level caster, and shouldn't be allowed under these rules.
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Well, you could always just create a level-cap for your campaigns. Either XP as a whole (for every PC, or just for some Classes -- forcing Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers and such multiclass after a certain level.
This way Players can still play what they want to play without bringing in the big magic.
....Or better, they can continue to gain levels in Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer but they don't get access to the highest level spells. So their Spells per Day or Spells Known increases (for metamagic Feats or for extra low & mid-level spells)
What I would advise, though, is that you take a look at the spell lists, 7-9, and see if there are any spells that you may need for your game. Is Dismissal, for example, a good enough spell or do you need the stronger Banishment.
If you want to eliminate 9th level spells, it is easier to simply stop the game before you reach such heights, or at least go with a E6/7. A lot of players want to be the full caster.
Personally, if I were in a Dragon Age type world and the like, I'd want to BE the persecuted sorcerer running for his life, etc. It was one of (the only) things I liked about Dragon Age 2. I played a caster and I felt more immersed in the world as a quasi-fugitive, and I felt for Anders' plight, etc.
I think DA's environment was lower level. True, you could stat-wise get your HP, AC, etc, pretty darn high, but when it came to spells and the like, the most powerful stuff was pretty much mid-level for Pathfinder.
In answer to your question, why would you play any other class? Because at low levels martials are king. At 5th-10th, give or take depending on specifics, they're about even. Most games do not make it to the levels where full casters are altering reality; if they do, don't you think the players have earned it by that point? It's a PitA to deal with as a GM, admittedly, which is why I usually conclude games by 15th or so.
Just my opinion, but I think an E7 game will solve your problems a lot more elegantly than banning 1/4 of the classes. I'm usually pretty vocal against house rules (not altogether; they have their place, but I'm definitely in the "less is more" camp), but E7 is well thought out and fixes a LOT of complaints about the game. It caps off at a perfect level to maintain a nice balance between martials and casters, making casters feel as if they've "come onto their own" but not so much that they don't need their martial compatriots.
Oracles are very definitely 9th level casters and have as many shenanigans available as other such. I'm assuming that's an oversight and you're banning them too.
You may want to provide some scrolls of common healing spells which will be arriving late as treasure or at cost from friendly organisations, or something; the PCs will be needing restoration and remove curse, break enchantment (etc.) before they can cast them under their own power, especially since many of the remaining classes have limited spells known.
Why are the churches against arcane magic? That'll provide some hooks for a start. If it's about necromancy/mind control/summoning fiends/war crimes or something else repulsive, maybe the parties' best ally is someone genuinely guilty of these but hiding it. The PCs may want to help them cover it up or escape.
If it's purely about a lust for power on the part of the churches then there should be various factions looking to advantage themselves. Maybe just leaking information about a planned expedition (which the PCs can try to scoop). Maybe even sabotaging each other using deniable assets.
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for 9th level heh you just don't need to reach high level which frankly most of the time never happens. Most people ends their campaign around level 15 and it's fine, nothing wrong with that. And if you have npc that high level in your campaign setting, they could just be powerful npc mentors and the likes.
9th level psionics have some neat tricks too but they are at most on the power level of sorcerers instead of Wizards.
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I think it could work... I've been tempted to GM games like that, but I dislike banning stuff.
BTW, Oracles are full casters as well... They are probably the least broken full casters in the game, but they are still very powerful.
Summoners have nearly as many broken shenanigans as Sorcerers, and are even easier to optimize. If you're banning 9-level casters because of balance, you should probably ban Summoners too.
Another possible idea is removing the 7th, 8th and 9th level spells from full casters but letting them use those slots for meta-magic feats. Should be pretty strong, but not nearly as powerful as actually having access to high-level spells.
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Ok so I personally feel 9th level casters and potentially manifesters are just too powerful for your normal campaign setting. Often times I hear stories of the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid doing insane stuff at higher levels that just seem like why would you play any other class when you can just wish for more wishes or warp the universe to your desire, or heck make your own!.
So I wanted my new setting to be strictly limited to 6th level casters.
For arcane this means: Bard, Magus, Skald, and Summoners.
For divine this means: Inquisitors, Hunter, Paladin, Ranger, and Warpriest.Alchemist and Investigator not being proper 6ths but allowed.
So to the advice for this part.
1. Do you think with those options the parties won't feel like they can't cover all their needs? Healing, DPR, Tanking, Skill-Monkey, Party Face, etc.2. Do you think 9th level psionics are as broken and op as 9th level spells? I am fond of the psion and psionics in general so I feel my love for the style is blinding me.
I was considering running as a Dragon Age like Inquisition style world where Divine magic, their churches and armies have begun to persecute arcane casters and this is why we do not have witches, wizards, sorcerers and the like. To explain why no Clerics or Druids. Not every god agrees with this overly aggressive kill all arcane users way of thinking so they deny their clerics their full powers, which is why we get Paladins, Inquisitors, and Warpriest(Clerics basically). As even the gods who support these views don't want to give too much power to their followers when it might turn against them. Druids do not exist because nature is about balance and with the world shifting to divine over arcane the balance is thrown out of wack reducing them to the Hunter class.
Do you think this would be a good idea?
Can you give suggestions for fun plots to take place in a world Arcane users have to mostly hide what they are doing. Sure the churches know what they are doing and that the bards and so forth exist but only go after them if they begin to upset the status quo(?). At least till they are ready to wipe out all arcane users in the end.EDIT: It was an oversight and I am banning them. I was going to ban the Summoners, but that just leaves Arcane with Bard, Skald, and Magus and that seems very pitiful when it comes to magical support.
ALSO I cannot make new posts for some reason.
Every setting I have played in has had things more powerful than the PC's. I don't think they can be too powerful for any setting. They can be too much for a GM, depending on the GM.
Also it is better to play and experience it for yourself than go by hearsay. Some tables have them wrecking GM's encounters. Other tables don't have a problem with them. Some tables also are ok with them, but only up to a certain level. Some table are ok with some of them, but not others. Basically how much trouble they are depends on the group.
Psionics are more balanced than spells, but the do nova a easier so whether or not they are better depends on playstyle. As an example if the world goes on independently of your PC's then the problem will self-correct. If they use the "nova then rest" combo, and they never have to fight while depleted on resources they will continue to do so.
With that said players are more of a problem than classes in my experience. If a player has really good system mastery he can trivialize encounters and still give the GM headaches even playing partial casters.
There is no one plot that I can recommend, but the game is easier with full casters for players. You will probably need to compensate for certain things if certain spells are no longer available and/or they come later in the game due to not having full casters.
As for the summoner, the class is not inherently broken, but it is an easy class to optimize, and it has a lot of rules exceptions. Most of the builds that cause trouble are due to rules errors on the part of the GM or the player. If you and your group are new to the game you might want to avoid the summoner for now, and bring it in later on. Definitely avoid the master summoner for now.
You can also retrofit the 9th level casters with a different frame. Wizard with medium BAB, d8, 6th level spells and maybe alter the weapons, armor and skill points slightly.
But I agree, a dragon age grittier world would be cool.
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The "ZOMGFULLCASTERSOP" power fix can be pretty simple to implement. You merely cut off the actual 7th-9th level spells, but you keep the slots. It actually gives more incentive for those classes to pick up and apply metamagic feats. (It certainly makes Heighten Spell more attractive.)
I think there was also a feat or something that allowed you to divvy up what a spell slot actually obtained; for example, you could have a 2nd level spell slot instead work as 2 1st level spell slots. That would be another great option for such a game.
Have them take a level in a different class that does not progress their spellslots before advancing their casting levels beyond level 2/4/6/8/9/10/11/12.
I thought to do this in combination with houserules that advance caster levels of multiclass casters for spell variables.
You would probably see some more use of prestige classes that do not advance caster levels for some levels and generally more versatile casters.
Allow me to shamelessly plug a low-magic alternate class for the wizard
This also makes a good NPC-only class if you want to restrict wizard-type powers to NPCs or DMPCs.