Is the sacred fist just better than the base Warpriest?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

Flawed wrote:

Ki Channel

Potentially grants an extra 7 Ki Points per channel if you want to use up your fervor for more ki. Also gotta worship Irori.

Whelp, now I have a reason to actually use Channel Energy. That is pretty damn sexy. I just don't want to worship Irori... I'd rather worship Desna for the Liberation!!


LoreKeeper wrote:

Oh, yea, there's bleed damage too. I don't think that is the reason I like Tiger Style; it's all about the 3rd feat in the chain. No attack penalty on Power Attack and the ability to move half-speed as a swift action. That is a big deal.

The Criosphinx interaction is indeed very neat (though down-the-line I'd be worried about a clarification of it only applying to your first attack in the case of a pounce-based charge). But the problem with charges is that they are... well... charges. There are plenty of times where charging isn't an option, and even when it does apply, it applies in the first round, subsequent rounds are "normal" full-attacks.

I'd forgotten that Tiger Pounce eats your swift action, that's a huge downside compared to Pummeling Charge. You really want your swift action available for fervor buffs in the first two rounds of combat, which is typically also when you want to move closer to the enemy. You also need to use a feat on Tiger Claw, which I find underwhelming.

The key to making charges a consistently viable option is to A: make sure you can avoid the things that typically shut down charging - namely difficult terrain. A fly spell or feather step slippers handle this nicely. And B: Make sure whatever you're charging will be unable to attack after you've charged it. It's the RAGELANCEPOUNCE concept but toned down a bit, really.

Making 7 attacks (assuming haste) at 2D6/2D8 +8 (strength) + 4 (horn) + 4 (weapon) + 6 (PA) translates to seven attacks at 2dx+22. If one of those 7 attacks roll a 19 or a 20, every successful attack deals double damage, and it's all compiled before DR. If the SF is able to pre-buff for a single round (say, cast Divine Power and activate Destruction blessing) those numbers increase dramatically.

That said, picking up Tiger Style (for more damage type variation) normally, then dipping a single level of MoMS for fused styles and Tiger Pounce somewhere around level 8 isn't a bad idea - no attack penalty on Power Attack while charging is handy and goes well with Pummeling Charge.


Rub-Eta wrote:
@Undone: you said you had been building a reach Warpriest and a Sacred Fist, can you by any chance share those builds? (I would have to look more directly at them to further my thoughts in the matter)

Sure. Note this is for WotW so I'm evil but it's trivial to replace the evil stuff (Belial with ragathel, evil with good domain replacements done) We're also on a 25 point buy but I'll list how I'd change it.

Spoiler:

Warpriest of Belial LE

Oni Spawn Tiefling +2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha Alter self SLA

STR: 20 OR 18
DEX: 12 OR 14
CON: 10 OR 12
INT: 10 OR 12
WIS: 18 OR 18
CHA: 5 OR 5

Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.

Darkvision: Tieflings can see perfectly in the dark for up to 60 feet.

(AR Trait Replaces Skilled) Beguiling Liar
Many tieflings find that the best way to get along in the world is to tell others what they want to hear. These tieflings' practice of telling habitual falsehoods grants them a +4 racial bonus on Bluff checks to convince an opponent that what they are saying is true when they tell a lie. This racial trait replaces skilled.

(AR Trait Replaces Fiendish Sorcery) Prehensile Tail
Many tieflings have tails, but some have long, flexible tails that can be used to carry items. While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action. This racial trait replaces fiendish sorcery.

Skills
Perception +5 (+4 wisdom +1 rank, 3 class)
Bluff +6 (+1 rank -3 charisma, +2 Piracy, +3 Class +4 Begiling liar)

Trait:
Fate's Favored (Luck bonuses increase by 1)
Reactionary +2 init
Piracy (Bluff is a class skill +2)

Drawbacks:
Paranoid
Effect: Anyone who attempts an aid another action of any type to assist you must succeed at a DC 15 check instead of the normal DC 10 check.

Favored Weapon Ransure
Ranseur 10 gp 1d6 2d4 ×3 — 12 lbs. P Disarm, reach
Heavy mace 12 gp 1d6 1d8 ×2 — 8 lbs. B —
Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/×2 10 ft. 1 lb. P or S —
Four-mirror 45 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 45 lbs
Grappling hook, common 1 gp 4 lbs.
Rope (50 ft.) 1 gp 10 lbs.
100x Chalk 1 cp —
Shovel, common 2 gp 8 lbs.
Wrist Sheath, spring loaded 5 gp 1 lb.1
Weapon Cord 1 sp
Warpriest Kit
66 GP Left over
Blessings: Evil, Destruction

NOTE: Our GM has ruled the way our VC, and VL have ruled that for the bonus feats you treat your level as your BAB in all respects (Meaning power attack gives -2/+x at level 4 not -1/+X) if you take it in your bonus feat slot. Given that it is RAW and I'm 10/10 in person asking experienced GM's the question "How much does power attack do at level 4" I'm leaning that it probably actually works this way. Additionally my stats would be STR: 18 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 12 WIS: 16 CHA: 5 on a 20 pb. I intend to pick up the fortuitous weapon enhancement.

Feats:
BF) WF Ransure
1) Combat Reflexes
3rd Combat Bonus) Power attack
3) Pushing Assault
5) Improved Initative
6th Combat Bonus) Weapon specialization ransure
7)
9th Combat Bonus) GWF Ransure
9) Lunge
11) Quicken Blessing
12th Combat Bonus) GWSpecialization Ransure/Pin Down.
13) Divine Interference
15th Combat Bonus) Dazing Assault
15)
17)
18th Combat Bonus) GWSpecialziation Ransure
19)

As for the Sacred fist I did find a build which is better as a WP but you get exactly 1 guess what it is. It's the same build that's better on all martial. Archery but what does shock me is that it's only a LITTLE bit better.

A normal 2 handed 18 str character at level we'll say 10 since that's where the DPR charts start.
Warpriest

Spoiler:

Assume you've taken WF, GWF, and WS. POwer attacking at -3 +9 and started 18 str +2 bumps +6 item giving +8 str.

To hit +22/+17 = +8 str +8 BAB +3 Weapon -3 PA +2 WF/GWF +4 Divine favor (You only get 1 swift and you must be able to do it in all encounters that's why not divine power).

Damage 2d4+30 = +12 STR +4 Divine Favor +9 Power attack +2 Weapon Spec +3 Weapon


Sacred fist level 9/MoMS 1 damage
Spoiler:

Using a ki point (Which you have effectively infinity of due to channel ki)

To hit +20/+20/+20/+15/+15 = +4 Divine Favor +7 BAB +8 STR +2 weapon +2 charge (full attack on a charge) -3 to hit

Damage 1d10+28/1d10+24/1d10+24/1d10+24/1d10+24 = +16/+12 STR, +2 item +4 divine favor +6 power attack


Additionally every single additional buff favors the Sacred fist.

I cannot come up with a mildly reasonable WP build which comes close to the WP after level 5. Before level 5 they're basically similar with a slight edge to sacred fist at levels 3-5. If a round goes by and you're allowed to use quicken blessing at level 11 both sides gain +5 damage which heavily favors the WP although realistically they'll quicken summon monster.

Note the reach build is fun but is ultimately weak compared to the sacred fist. I assume the archer build would also be WTFOMG awesome since you get a feat tree like WPB: Weapon focus 1: PBS H: Precise shot, 3: Rapid shot 3B: Deadly aim, 5: Open, 6WPB: Many shot, 6HB: Weapon spec

Scarab Sages

This is where a single dip of MoMS becomes desirable. Being able to have fuse styles lets you be in Dragon Style and Pummeling style at the same time, allowing you to charge through difficult terrain and allies. The damage boost is just a side benefit.


Imbicatus wrote:
This is where a single dip of MoMS becomes desirable. Being able to have fuse styles lets you be in Dragon Style and Pummeling style at the same time, allowing you to charge through difficult terrain and allies. The damage boost is just a side benefit.

To be completely honest if quickrunners shirts are allowed I'd skip pummeling style for dragon/snake because snake + Fortuitous AoMF gives you 3 AOO's when someone misses you. I've never been at a table which allowed quickrunners shirts.

Dark Archive

Yeah, Dragon Ferocity + Pummeling Charge is huge. Lots of damage and ability to charge through all the things.


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K177Y C47 wrote:

And besides, this is a horridly contrived scenerio to try and FORCE value on an "all day class" when the game is not made with these base assumptions....

6 encounters a day (not including things like traps) is considered quite a bit... let alone 10+

This really wasn't contrived. The GM didn't actually expect us to go in guns a-blazin' after the dominate failed. We just did it anyway. The caster really wasn't the type to conserve resources, especially against an army. It's a bit of a fault of his, too; we ended up stranded without a teleport hoping the rest of the army didn't catch up to us while we found a place to rest, and there are precious few places to hole up in a hot, sandy desert. (I'd have reminded him about spells like rope trick, but I'm the moron goblin and don't know about that stuff.)

There's a lot of talk about "base assumptions", but the game supports many, many styles of play. Reading about a situation where certain builds shine unexpectedly and declaring that they're contrived smacks of No True Scotsman. When we talk about that day, we think about how great an adventure it was, not how it somehow wasn't valid because it didn't adhere to the baseline encounter frequency.

Anyway, sorry for the derail!


LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).


chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).

Or you can elect to not have terrible weapons and not use dex based characters. They're lower damage for little gain. +5 vanilla is better than +4 agile because using str trumps using dex.

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).

Or you can elect to not have terrible weapons and not use dex based characters. They're lower damage for little gain. +5 vanilla is better than +4 agile because using str trumps using dex.

Which is a point in favor of the Warpriest. It's easier to get a good AC with heavy armor and low dex than it is for a Sacred Fist with no armor and the class AC bonus.


Imbicatus wrote:
Undone wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).

Or you can elect to not have terrible weapons and not use dex based characters. They're lower damage for little gain. +5 vanilla is better than +4 agile because using str trumps using dex.
Which is a point in favor of the Warpriest. It's easier to get a good AC with heavy armor and low dex than it is for a Sacred Fist with no armor and the class AC bonus.

You'll forgive me while I either stack wisdom if the game allows or where I dip 1 level of fighter and have better AC, saves, and damage, and pounce while you have nothing equal to that.

There is exactly 1 thing I can see being better as a vanilla WP and that's the archer build (Which debatable zen archer 3 sf X is better still).

You should never bump dex to improve AC as a SF. Additionally we all know how little AC matters at high levels unless you get it for free.

EDIT: For reference my level 2 WP has 14 dex and has less AC than my level 2 sacred fist with 12 dex because I've not invested in a full plate.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
Undone wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).

Or you can elect to not have terrible weapons and not use dex based characters. They're lower damage for little gain. +5 vanilla is better than +4 agile because using str trumps using dex.
Which is a point in favor of the Warpriest. It's easier to get a good AC with heavy armor and low dex than it is for a Sacred Fist with no armor and the class AC bonus.

Imbicatus, for the first time ever, I disagree with you: Because, Bracers of Armor. All fixed :D


Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Undone wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).

Or you can elect to not have terrible weapons and not use dex based characters. They're lower damage for little gain. +5 vanilla is better than +4 agile because using str trumps using dex.
Which is a point in favor of the Warpriest. It's easier to get a good AC with heavy armor and low dex than it is for a Sacred Fist with no armor and the class AC bonus.
Imbicatus, for the first time ever, I disagree with you: Because, Bracers of Armor. All fixed :D

Buy a friendly wizard a PoP 1 for 1000g. Perma mage armor.


i missed that sacred fist got the warpriests bonus feat class feature at 15th, feels like an oversight but im glad its there.


christos gurd wrote:
i missed that sacred fist got the warpriests bonus feat class feature at 15th, feels like an oversight but im glad its there.

Wow, that's a glaring error. Hah! I bet the illustration ate the 15th level ability.

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:
Kazumetsa_Raijin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Undone wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.

I'd thought of this last night, but needed to sleep before I could answer:

True, but at the cost of weapon abilities. You can have an Amulet of Mighty Fists on +5, which is fantastic, but you then don't get any abilities. +4 Agile is probably better, or +3 Impact Agile. but it still stands that the Warpriest can have a pair effective +10 weapons at the cost of simply 2 +5 weapons. Albeit for only 12 rounds a day at lv12, but that's still actually enough to deal with most scenarios (unless you're getting wave after wave of bad guys, in which case everyone is going to be at a disadvantage). The fact that you can put Bane or Furious onto your weapons in quick response also helps even the accuracy disparity (you'll have to be under the effects of Rage or have a Skald in the party for Furious, but it's more versatile than Bane).

Or you can elect to not have terrible weapons and not use dex based characters. They're lower damage for little gain. +5 vanilla is better than +4 agile because using str trumps using dex.
Which is a point in favor of the Warpriest. It's easier to get a good AC with heavy armor and low dex than it is for a Sacred Fist with no armor and the class AC bonus.
Imbicatus, for the first time ever, I disagree with you: Because, Bracers of Armor. All fixed :D
Buy a friendly wizard a PoP 1 for 1000g. Perma mage armor.

The Warpriest can have perma magic vestment up all day, so that's a wash.

As for the bracers, I was mistakenly thinking they were not cost effective when compared to regular armor, my bad. :)


Let's just look at this assuming the following at level 4

1) You're aware AC is largely weak at later levels where rocket tag is king.
2) Spending money on offensive stats is better than defensive stats.

+1 Full plate with a 2 handed weapon +1 dex mod.

Your AC will be 21 for 2650 gp. Your touch will be 11.

Sacred fist will have

18 wisdom and 12 dex which is a base of +5, +1 for 4 levels and +4 mage armor. So with an investment of 1 PoP or 1000 gold you have 10 AC and 16 touch.

Considering your AC will increase at a greater rate than the base WP unless the base WP wastes 10k+ your passive AC gains will make you much stronger in the long run. Magic vestment scales too slowly and doesn't apply to our friend touch AC.


Kudaku wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The Warpriest can have perma magic vestment up all day, so that's a wash.

As for the bracers, I was mistakenly thinking they were not cost effective when compared to regular armor, my bad. :)

It's worth noting that Magic Vestment stacks with Mage Armor, so it's a viable option for both archetypes.

It's unclear if you can magic vestment mage armor and I'd rather not kick off another 3000 posts of arguing if something stacks or not.


Undone wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The Warpriest can have perma magic vestment up all day, so that's a wash.

As for the bracers, I was mistakenly thinking they were not cost effective when compared to regular armor, my bad. :)

It's worth noting that Magic Vestment stacks with Mage Armor, so it's a viable option for both archetypes.
It's unclear if you can magic vestment mage armor and I'd rather not kick off another 3000 posts of arguing if something stacks or not.

Yeah, I deleted my post literally two minutes after posting it to avoid the same debate. Guess you caught it just in time. :)


chbgraphicarts wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
sacred fist cannot select weapon spec. just nitpicking.

I would normally agree with you EXCEPT that it seems he's using the Human Racial Ability there.

I kinda feel like the Archetype's ability would trump the Race's and force him to take a Style Feat, but I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say "okay, that works" since there hasn't been a ruling one way or the other yet, and this is a thought-experiment on the maximum damage legally possible (the Monk's Robe doesn't work, 'cause the Sacred Fist doesn't actually grant levels in Monk).

even so, the sacred fist doesn't count his levels as fighter levels for the purposes of bonus combat feats till level 15 so it would have to wait.


The Human bonus feat via RAW is just a generic combat bonus feat with no special rules.

Keep that in mind.

Either way using no questionable rules I'd say the SF is significantly ahead of the WP at all times in all areas.


god if the vanilla war priest could just count as fighter and full bab for ALL his feats from level 1 i would be 100% great with the class(in other words, hello first houserule, the other is sacred weapon and armor just being constant bonuses rather than activated.)


Rub-Eta wrote:
My unarmoured Inquisitor stood proud at an AC of 34, at level 5.

Can you please provide a breakdown of this.


Hmmm some interesting points.

I would say sacred fist is about equal to power the warpriest provided they both go straight classed and sacred fist doesn't go the agile amulet of fists route.
In that case sacred fist will be weaker at low levels and stronger at higher levels than the warpriest.


Undone wrote:

2) Flurry of blows for sacred weapon. This is horribly lopsided. Flurry of blows is effectively free TWF feats. It, especially with the new feats (Looking at you pummeling style) makes this a key value of one size but more importantly you gain EFFECTIVELY full BAB.

I'm not sure this is true RAW, unless there has been an announcement that clarifies it. According to the ACG, Sacred Fist gets

Quote:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name. This ability replaces sacred weapon.

(emphasis mine)

checking the Monk entry, we find:

Quote:
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level

(again emphasis mine).

So the Sacred Fists Fob Bab is equal to his Monk level - but he doesn't have any Monk levels. That means his Bab would be 0.

While this is obviously not RAI, it should be clarified (if it hasn't already).

On a further note, If the SF dips a level of MOMS, does his Bab increase? RAW, he has a Monk level (so it should), but MOMS doesn't get Fob, so should a class dip that doesn't have fob contribute pseudo bab to it?


Wow, there is some truth to that. Totaly missed that. Though the BAB would be equal to the Warpriest's BAB, not 0 (since you add any other BAB to the monk level).

The Sacred Fist does have affective monk levels, two even. Though those are in reference to unarmed strike damage dice (full level) and ki pool (level -3).

Though not including one for flurry could also have been a miss on paizo's part when they printed the ACG-Adventure Path. We'll have to see about that.

Silver Crusade

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For people who're reading this in 2016, here some nerfs :D :

- Nope, you cannot flurry or do Monk-y things while in any armor.
- Nope, you don't get full BAB while flurrying

also, the normal progression of Sacred Weapon Damage is the same of that of a Monk just one level lower. So, not only now Sacred Fist is absolutely not better than a standard WP, but you could even build a decent unarmed + armored standard WP! Just pick a deity with unarmed strike ad favored weapon (free Improved Unarmed Strike), and apply your free Weapon Focus on you fists.


That's pretty terrible.

"Oh no, the Sacred Fist is an effective and interesting archetype that allows players to express a concept that's otherwise hard or impossible to emulate in Pathfinder"

Better nerf the crap out of it.

Shadow Lodge

Eh, I wasn't a fan of the Sacred Fist being able to flurry in armour. Nerfing the flurry itself seems a bit much, though.

Imbicatus wrote:
As for the bracers, I was mistakenly thinking they were not cost effective when compared to regular armor, my bad. :)

They're not cost effective compared to regular armour. That's why being able to wear armour is better than not being able to wear armour.

For 1,250gp, a +1 chain shirt gives you a +5 armour bonus. Try to buy that same bonus with Bracers and you'll spend 25,000gp. Plus armour has its own item slot, so it's not competing with other magic items you might want.

Now, the cost of the bracers is the same as enhancing armour magically, so the AC bonus that the Monk and Sacred Fist get more or less compensates for the "base" armour bonus - a little less at low levels, and a little more at high levels.


swoosh wrote:

That's pretty terrible.

"Oh no, the Sacred Fist is an effective and interesting archetype that allows players to express a concept that's otherwise hard or impossible to emulate in Pathfinder"

Better nerf the crap out of it.

It's still massively powerful and it has potential for a disgustingly high output with no need to prebuff.


Gray Warden wrote:

For people who're reading this in 2016, here some nerfs :D :

- Nope, you cannot flurry or do Monk-y things while in any armor.
- Nope, you don't get full BAB while flurrying

Where is this shown? I recently got the ACG and I see none of these changes nor in the errata I just looked at.


Egeslean05 wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:

For people who're reading this in 2016, here some nerfs :D :

- Nope, you cannot flurry or do Monk-y things while in any armor.
- Nope, you don't get full BAB while flurrying

Where is this shown? I recently got the ACG and I see none of these changes nor in the errata I just looked at.

The changes were in the second printing of the ACG. You can find them in the Errata file at the end of page 4 and the beginning of page 5.

Quote:
Page 131—In the Sacred Fist archetype’s Weapon and Armor Proficiency, before the last sentence, add “When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a sacred fist loses his AC bonus and flurry of blows.” In the AC Bonus ability, in the third sentence, change “deflection” to “dodge”. At the end of the ability, add the sentence “This counts as the monk ability of the same name, and the sacred fist’s warpriest levels stack with monk levels for determining the benefits.” In the Flurry of Blows ability, at the end of the second sentence, add “, except the sacred fist’s attack bonus from warpriest levels does not count as his warpriest level.”


Thanks Gisher. I had apparently looked at the wrong errata earlier. Are these changes reflected in the PDF version? If all the PDF's are updated with the errata changes, I might have to consider getting those instead of physical copies.


Egeslean05 wrote:
Thanks Gisher. I had apparently looked at the wrong errata earlier. Are these changes reflected in the PDF version? If all the PDF's are updated with the errata changes, I might have to consider getting those instead of physical copies.

Yes. The PDF's are updated once a new printing is available for purchase.


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It appears they nerfed it into oblivion. Rest in peace's Warpriest. You will be missed.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Nerfed to oblivion seems a bit overdramatic. You still get a better version of the three TWF feats for free, a pretty solid scaling AC bonus that doesn't keep up with fullplate but still manages to be decent and actually gives you a decent touch AC.

Evasion for Fortidude effects is pretty sweet too.


Squiggit wrote:

Nerfed to oblivion seems a bit overdramatic. You still get a better version of the three TWF feats for free, a pretty solid scaling AC bonus that doesn't keep up with fullplate but still manages to be decent and actually gives you a decent touch AC.

Evasion for Fortidude effects is pretty sweet too.

I'd consider being an archetype which is strictly worse than the base WP to be Nuked from orbit. The archetype costs you several class features which are worse than the base WP.

An unarmed strike warpriest without the archetype is better. No matter how you slice it the archetype is a waste of pages.


Undone wrote:
It appears they nerfed it into oblivion. Rest in peace's Warpriest. You will be missed.

Oh no. you will just haveto live with swift action self buffs that can very well match up with rage even if you just use the level 1 spells only for that. How will you ever be able to get an effective attack out?

Really, the only thing to strictly complain about here is the need to go unarmored. But a lot of monks go without armor, and you are a wis caster that gets your casting stat to AC. So you are hardly bad off.

Anyway, the purpose of the arhcetype is 'TWF without needing to spend feats or necessarily have high dex'. On a class where one of its main features is getting a stat attack/damage effect (the swift divine favor referenced above), that seems great.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Undone wrote:


I'd consider being an archetype which is strictly worse than the base WP to be Nuked from orbit. The archetype costs you several class features which are worse than the base WP.

An unarmed strike warpriest without the archetype is better. No matter how you slice it the archetype is a waste of pages.

Weapon Proficiencies and losing Focus Weapon are the two worst trades I can see and the first one doesn't even matter if you're building unarmed.

So which trades are the ones you think are bad?


Squiggit wrote:
Undone wrote:


I'd consider being an archetype which is strictly worse than the base WP to be Nuked from orbit. The archetype costs you several class features which are worse than the base WP.

An unarmed strike warpriest without the archetype is better. No matter how you slice it the archetype is a waste of pages.

Weapon Proficiencies and losing Focus Weapon are the two worst trades I can see and the first one doesn't even matter if you're building unarmed.

So which trades are the ones you think are bad?

Most style feats are also combat so that's a straight downgrade. The weapon prof is worse. The dice scaling somehow now manages to be worse than the sacred weapon scaling. Sacred fortitude is cute. I used to sing it's praises for being cool because it is cool. The only problem is it's not worth the bonus feat you now require for damage with how useless flurry is now. Same with the 9th level feat Although if it's automatically rounded down from 1 I suppose that might be useful. The loss of sacred armor since you lose armor is a big loss since sacred armor is flexibility and the new armor doesn't even grant you a high armor class where as you can use a tower shield and heavy armor with the base unarmed character.

It's just bad trades now.

In addition making power attack/DA not track with level hurts the lancer, 2 Handed, reach, and archer WP significantly.

The class is now pretty underwhelming in almost every way.

Sovereign Court

Weirdo wrote:

Eh, I wasn't a fan of the Sacred Fist being able to flurry in armour. Nerfing the flurry itself seems a bit much, though.

Imbicatus wrote:
As for the bracers, I was mistakenly thinking they were not cost effective when compared to regular armor, my bad. :)

They're not cost effective compared to regular armour. That's why being able to wear armour is better than not being able to wear armour.

For 1,250gp, a +1 chain shirt gives you a +5 armour bonus. Try to buy that same bonus with Bracers and you'll spend 25,000gp. Plus armour has its own item slot, so it's not competing with other magic items you might want.

Now, the cost of the bracers is the same as enhancing armour magically, so the AC bonus that the Monk and Sacred Fist get more or less compensates for the "base" armour bonus - a little less at low levels, and a little more at high levels.

A Sacred Fist, like a monk, will have better AC than any armored character. Just do what monks do and get a wand of Mage Armor or a pearl of power to get Mage Armor cast on you. That combined with at least a +3 Wis bonus will beat out any chain shirt, not to mention that extra +1 per 4 levels.

Monks have the highest AC in the game past the first level or 2. Sacred Fists are now the same, only with their spell-casting also tied to Wis, they get more benefit from raising it.

Frankly - the flurry thing was a nerf (though I heard some argue that it worked that way before the errata) but I don't see why anyone is really complaining about the armor.

The only real issue I see with the class is the difficulty of getting nat armor since, unlike a monk, they don't get Barkskin as a ki ability - but their neck slot is still taken by the AoMF. It seems like the Scalykind Blessing is all but required, and keeping it up all of the time would be annoying.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Undone wrote:


Most style feats are also combat so that's a straight downgrade.

More a sidegrade. Most style feats are combat feats, but having warpriest levels count as monk levels gives you access to stuff the fighter can't pick up or at the very least earlier access.

Quote:
The weapon prof is worse.

Absolutely. That also doesn't matter for unarmed.

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The dice scaling somehow now manages to be worse than the sacred weapon scaling.

That's completely wrong. Monk unarmed progression is strictly better. Both start at d6, but monk gets d8 a level earlier, d10 two levels earlier, 2d6 three levels earlier, 2d8 four levels earlier and WP never picks up 2d10.

Quote:
Sacred fortitude is cute. I used to sing it's praises for being cool because it is cool. The only problem is it's not worth the bonus feat you now require for damage with how useless flurry is now. Same with the 9th level feat Although if it's automatically rounded down from 1 I suppose that might be useful.

The loss of feats kinda sucks... but hey, flurry gives you three bonus feats (only better) and that's the same number you lose. So if you were planning on TWF with the base warpriest they're basically freebies.

Quote:
The loss of sacred armor since you lose armor is a big loss since sacred armor is flexibility and the new armor doesn't even grant you a high armor class where as you can use a tower shield and heavy armor with the base unarmed character.

Slightly less flexibility in exchange for more damage and an AC bonus that actually works isn't that terrible a trade. Sacred Armor giving an enhancement bonus is just gross. Though some of the enhancements it can give you instead are decentish if you're in the right kind of campaign.

Shadow Lodge

The Sacred Fist is fine. It just isn't hand over foot better than the Warpriest as it could have originally been interpreted. Its less that the SF was merged as it was incorrectly published based off of the Playtest Warpriest, and needed to be fixed for those changes.

Particularly with the Armor issue, some people also insisted on a reading that ignored the normal restrictions Monks have for wearing armor (can't Flurry), even though it says it worked as the Monk ability. The ACG was a pretty big mess, but honestly these parts of the SF had been fairly clearly intended to work the way they where later reworded to from the start.

If anything, I'd have dropped Monk Unarmed Strike and kept Sacred Weapon for Unarmed Strike (maybe fists only?), and saved some space, but that's neither here nor there.


DM Beckett wrote:

The Sacred Fist is fine. It just isn't hand over foot better than the Warpriest as it could have originally been interpreted. Its less that the SF was merged as it was incorrectly published based off of the Playtest Warpriest, and needed to be fixed for those changes.

Particularly with the Armor issue, some people also insisted on a reading that ignored the normal restrictions Monks have for wearing armor (can't Flurry), even though it says it worked as the Monk ability. The ACG was a pretty big mess, but honestly these parts of the SF had been fairly clearly intended to work the way they where later reworded to from the start.

If anything, I'd have dropped Monk Unarmed Strike and kept Sacred Weapon for Unarmed Strike (maybe fists only?), and saved some space, but that's neither here nor there.

In what way was it not clear that flurry gave you full attacks. Now flurry and monk unarmed dice are reduced dramatically since you track off your BAB instead of level for both abilities.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Unarmed dice wasn't changed. Flurry was nerfed down to normal BAB and the AC bonus was nerfed to a dodge bonus, that's it.

Shadow Lodge

Which corresponds with the Warpriest also loosing its Full BaB as well from the play test version.


Squiggit wrote:
Unarmed dice wasn't changed. Flurry was nerfed down to normal BAB and the AC bonus was nerfed to a dodge bonus, that's it.

Changing AC to Dodge like a normal Monk was very not a nerf; dodge stacks.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah but deflection bonuses can't be turned off like dodge bonuses can.

Also monk AC bonus is untyped.


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Squiggit wrote:
Yeah but deflection bonuses can't be turned off like dodge bonuses can.

Deflection is easy to get. Sacred Fist can even swift-action a minute/level level 1 spell for a better deflection bonus than 1/4 levels if they want to. Changing bonus AC from "this saves you a bit of money or a low-level spell-slot" to "this stacks with anything else you do, like spending a bit of money or a low-level spell slot" looks like a major upgrade to me.

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