Ring of Spell Storing, does it offer only one casting of a spell?


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

Hello,

I'm trying to teach Pathfinder to some young players, and one of the intrepid young adventure-lings has learned how to read and hunt the Internet. On said Internet, he read the definition for a Ring of Spell Storing.

Then, he challenged me that he should be able to cast his spell(s) 'over and over and over again' rather than the ring being 'discharged' of a spell once it was cast. I read the definition...and I cannot find where it says the spell is discharged and leaves the ring empty of that spell/casting. I've found that this is the case for weapons/armor, but no language that indicates that for a Ring of Spell Storing.

So, can someone who knows the answer please either point me to the rule that says "the ring discharges a casting of the spell and then that slot is empty"...or inform me that I'm GMing wrong and that the Ring allows repeated castings of given spell until it is over-written by another spell cast onto the ring.

I'm trying to keep my GMing 'Society friendly' so they are learning how to play in a way that allows them to join PFS as they get a bit older.

My thanks for what is probably an obvious question.


Ask him to provide the line that it can be cast more then once.


Lord Vukodlak wrote:
Ask him to provide the line that it can be cast more then once.

Its in the same place that says the ring can only be used once. It doesn't exist. The item description is vague.

The only thing I can find is in the Spell Storing weapon property:

Quote:
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

That at least implies the spell is gone once cast, allowing you to cast another spell into the spell storing weapon. You could apply the same to the ring.

The part of the ring description that implied the spell does disappear when cast isn't Open Game Content, so didn't get copied from 3.5 to Pathfinder:

Quote:
A wizard could cast two magic missile spells and a mage armor spell into the ring (1 + 1 + 1 = 3). She could then give the ring to a druid, who casts the mage armor spell from the ring and then puts a calm animal spell into the ring. The druid could give the ring to a barbarian, who could use all the spells but could not replace any.

So, druid casts a spell from the ring, then can put another in its place. The spell is supposed to disappear once cast. Also, if the spells didn't disappear, there would of been no reason to include 2 magic missiles. But like I said, this part of the description had to be left out of the Pathfinder description.


This is rather like claiming since there is no sentence saying, "after fired, a gun must be reloaded" you can fire your musket (or crossbow) an infinite number of times. It's in the name, spell-storing. As in it stores a spell, not copies and permanently auto-casts a spell.

Link to the item in question, for posterity.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The key is the word "storing". Pity it isn't made explicit in the description, though.

Liberty's Edge

By the same logic the caster must expend a spell slot to cast the spell.
"A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast"
How do you cast a spell? By expending an appropriate level spell slot, so you need to use a spell slot to power the ring.

Or we can go the other way and read the item description without trying to play legalese.
It is a storing item, it store X levels of spells, when you use the spells they are removed from storage and used and the storage space is left empty and reusable.

There is another problem in the item description: it don't say what kind of activation it use.
Generally it is treated as a spell completion item with special exemptions: "The user need not provide any material components or focus to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture)." but it don't say that explicitly.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suggest looking at the weapon property.

CRB pg. 472 wrote:
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

This is specific about needing to replace the spell.

The ring has the same functions, only allows more than a single spell in it.

Point out that if it worked like the player said, there would be no way to change what spells are in the ring.

Lantern Lodge

My thanks to all for the input, and my replies:

to Lord V. - He's 10 years old. I'm concerned that he would feel cheated or somehow misled. I'm going to have the "not all the rules are easy to understand" talk with him, so I can focus on the fun. But I am trying to keep this Society-friendly if I can.

to Jeraa - Agreed. The name is vague. To me, spell storing implies that it stores the essence of the spell, UNTIL that spell is replaced by another one. However, the fact that when one finds a ring it can have empty slots heavily implies that the slots do in fact empty out.

to Boring 7 - You may understand 'spell storing' that way, but I do not agree that it is implied in the name. Quite the opposite - the name is next to useless since storing implies to me keeping for the long-term.

to Wheldrake - Key word, indeed. Storing, not holding, not locking, not dispensing. "Storing". ???

to Diego Rossi - Disagree on the details. The rings allow non-casters to cast spells, and they have no slots. And allow casters to cast other than their type (arcane versus divine) and cast without materials, etc. Its more like a spell-like ability in that case. And again, the "go the other way" that you offer has no actual support in the text. You create the other way by well-worded phrase, but you create it yourself and do not find it in the actual description.

And to Bret I - You come to the same point I do above, that there is possibility (and likelihood) that the ring has some EMPTY slots which got empty somehow. That, I think, I can share and explain to a 10 year old in a way he will understand and then can apply. As an aside, I disagree about "no way to change what spells" - there is also no rule or text that would block a character from simply casting over a spell slot.

I thank you all for offering suggestions and guidance. I think I can extend the concept that a slot BECOMES empty by virtue of casting the spell out of if.

Good gaming, all!


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I once stored my motorcycle in a storage unit. When I took it out, there was an identical motorcycle still stored in there.

Well, not really, because that is not what "storing" means.


cheechako wrote:

I once stored my motorcycle in a storage unit. When I took it out, there was an identical motorcycle still stored in there.

Well, not really, because that is not what "storing" means.

I was going to say this but it was already said.

Grand Lodge

If you are trying to keep it society friendly then you'll have to convince him (in whatever way you deem fit) that it doesn't work this way--no PFS gm would allow him infinite casts of a spell out of the ring.

Radiant Oath

cheechako wrote:

I once stored my motorcycle in a storage unit. When I took it out, there was an identical motorcycle still stored in there.

Well, not really, because that is not what "storing" means.

I once stored a file in my computer, and after I used it it was still there.

Stored means different things depending on the context, and magic often has a context of its own. We know how the Ring works from experience, but acting like someone who read the actual rules for the Ring is in the wrong for interpreting what is written as it is written is being an ass.

Liberty's Edge

You are disregarding the part "casting a spell". What happen when you cast a spell?

PRD - Magic section wrote:
Once you've cast a prepared spell, you can't cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you've prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once.) If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit.

What say the ring?

PRD wrote:


A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast.

So the wearer cast a spell, and that spell can't be cast again until it is prepared again, i.e. the ring is loaded again with a spell.

Magic items have a limited number of uses, read the opening page of the magic items rules, charges or uses that are used when the item is used. If an item has unlimited uses or a specific number of daily uses that is specified in the item description or in the general rules about that kind of item.
Sure, the item descriptions can be read the boy way, if you disregard how all other items work, and a 10 years old boy can be excused in thinking that is how it work. A adult is why less excused when he tries to argue that, between two different possible reading of the rules, that should be used.


Quote:

You are disregarding the part "casting a spell". What happen when you cast a spell?

PRD - Magic section wrote:
Once you've cast a prepared spell, you can't cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you've prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once.) If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit.

Cantrips are spells, and you also cast them. They don't disappear when you cast them.

Quote:
Magic items have a limited number of uses, read the opening page of the magic items rules, charges or uses that are used when the item is used. If an item has unlimited uses or a specific number of daily uses that is specified in the item description or in the general rules about that kind of item.

Its actually the opposite. Magic items have unlimited uses unless it specifically says so. Thats why the pricing table has specific entries for single use, charged, and daily use items. The rest of the formulas assume unlimited use.

Liberty's Edge

Jeraa wrote:
Quote:

You are disregarding the part "casting a spell". What happen when you cast a spell?

PRD - Magic section wrote:
Once you've cast a prepared spell, you can't cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you've prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once.) If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit.
Cantrips are spells, and you also cast them. They don't disappear when you cast them.

Specific rule that change a general rule and say so:

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

Don't try to pass a specific rule as a general rule.


Quote:

Specific rule that change a general rule and say so:

Don't try to pass a specific rule as a general rule.

Still sets a precedent that casting a spell doesn't always cause the spell to disappear.

The Pathfinder description of the item is vague enough it can be interpreted either way. Especially since magic items have unlimited uses unless they specifically say so.

The 3.X version shows that the spell is expended when cast, like it should be.


Evilgm wrote:
cheechako wrote:

I once stored my motorcycle in a storage unit. When I took it out, there was an identical motorcycle still stored in there.

Well, not really, because that is not what "storing" means.

I once stored a file in my computer, and after I used it it was still there.

Stored means different things depending on the context, and magic often has a context of its own. We know how the Ring works from experience, but acting like someone who read the actual rules for the Ring is in the wrong for interpreting what is written as it is written is being an ass.

That's not a brand of vernacular I've ever experienced.

To take your analogy further, the stored program runs on your computer's CPU time and power. This concept would logically follow that you had to use your own spell slots to cast the spell and the ring acted as a page of spell knowledge.

But maybe that's just because I default to the assumption spells and magical energy are like ammunition or fuel.


Faramir68 wrote:

I'm trying to teach Pathfinder to some young players, and one of the intrepid young adventure-lings has learned how to read and hunt the Internet. On said Internet, he read the definition for a Ring of Spell Storing.

Then, he challenged me that he should be able to cast his spell(s) 'over and over and over again' rather than the ring being 'discharged' of a spell once it was cast. I read the definition...and I cannot find where it says the spell is discharged and leaves the ring empty of that spell/casting. I've found that this is the case for weapons/armor, but no language that indicates that for a Ring of Spell Storing.

So, can someone who knows the answer please either point me to the rule that says "the ring discharges a casting of the spell and then that slot is empty"...or inform me that I'm GMing wrong and that the Ring allows repeated castings of given spell until it is over-written by another spell cast onto the ring.

If you have access to any previous version of the Dungeon Master's Guide, look up the ring of spell storing in there, and you will find an example showing that the cast spell is indeed expended. This doesn't appear in the Pathfinder version simply because the example text wasn't included in the 3.5E SRD, on which the Pathfinder rules are based, even though the example is present in the 3.5E DMG.

Shadow Lodge

I suggest a gameplay solution:

Consider allowing him to run it in the way that he enjoys the most, if it becomes abused, then simply have it disjoined by a more powerful caster. With possible incampaign negetive repercussions for unbridled use of magic.

Liberty's Edge

I appreciate that you're trying to keep the game Society friendly, so it's an opportunity to discuss the ideas associated with table variance and relying on an interpretation that is liberal.

If the description is ambiguous, it can be interpreted different ways. Which means that it will. Use it as an opportunity to explain that people may view it differently, and in such situations, it's up to the GM to decide.

Likewise, if he relies on a favorable interpretation for it to work, he may be disappointed. In such situations, he needs to learn to be willing to accept the less favorable ruling.

Given his age, some of this may be tough for him to process developmentally. At this age, he's pretty focused on things being black and white with respect to rules. But, exploring such grey areas is how he grows developmentally.

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