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I'm designing an oracle who will have a fairly high UMD skill. She would be a stone oracle and I'm wondering:
1) May I use UMD to use a ring of revelation from a different mystery according to PFS rules?
2) If the revelation is an "always on" revelation, how often do I have to roll UMD to keep it active? Every hour?
For the record, I've seen this comment from James Jacobs, and this statement as well.
Both indicate that it is impossible for non-oracles to use the ring, and that such use for oracles may be up to the GM. In PFS, there are *many* GMs. It would be nice to have an official ruling so that those oracles who are fantasizing about being able to use cross-mystery revelations can know where we stand, yes or no.
Thanks in advance!
Hmm
Expect table variation.
What he said.
I've personally never had any issues with my Ring of Revelation (and Soothsayer's Raiment) using Oracle. I usually just point out that Use Magic Device's "Emulate a Class Feature" option allows one to activate magic items as though one had the required class feature, that "Mystery" is named Oracle class feature, and that the ring grants a given revelation on the condition that one possesses the appropriate class feature--which is exactly what is being emulated with UMD.
Also keep in mind that your first linked comment (from JJ) was posted AFTER your second (from the same thread). D20PFSRD has just stuck with the initial decision, which is probably a major reason for the ongoing debate. The relevant language in each instance isn't ambiguous ("Mystery" is a class feature; class features can be emulated; the ring only checks "Mystery" as a prerequisite for granting a revelation). The confusion comes from how the argument is constructed.
EDIT: In response to question 2: Every hour, as per the UMD description. The revelation is continuous, so the mystery must be emulated continuously for it to stay active.
But is "waves mystery" a named class feature for the oracle that you can emulate? Can you use UMD to fact beings a conjuration specialist wizard? I don't think the issue is very clear at all, especially with how the T-Rex weighed in on it, saying non oracles can't UMD the ring into working.
A position which he reverses further down in the same thread:
Yes. That's using the "emulate a class feature," in this case, the class feature of having the Ancestor mystery. I guess, in theory, you could do that if you were ANY class, though. Which may not be the way I've interpreted the ability before.
You bring up an interesting line of reasoning though. My counter argument would be that there exist feats and similar that require the "Channel Positive Energy" or "Channel Negative Energy" class feature. Reading the list of cleric class features reveals that no such named features exist--though a class feature named "Channel Energy" does. Does this mean that no cleric can select the Command Undead or Turn Undead feats?
My counter argument would be that there exist feats and similar that require the "Channel Positive Energy" or "Channel Negative Energy" class feature. Reading the list of cleric class features reveals that no such named features exist--though a class feature named "Channel Energy" does. Does this mean that no cleric can select the Command Undead or Turn Undead feats?
Which would be a poor argument. You know exactly what "Channel positive energy" means: You have the channel energy class feature and you channel positve energy.
The rules are meant to be easy to read and flow for a reader. They are not, and cannot be designed to hold up to deliberate attempts to twist them for mechanical advantages. There's a reason no sane person reads law books for fun.
I'm loath to get into a debate about “intent” here, as I find it both counterproductive and unlikely to resolve anything. All I'm trying to point out is that if we read a class feature to be both the named feature itself and the subset of mutually exclusive options contained in its description, as seems to be the case when considering the example of Channel Energy, then individual Mysteries are valid targets for emulation with UMD--as are individual cleric Domains, wizard Schools, and so on. The fact that emulating a Mystery has a more obvious use doesn't mean that the rules operate any differently.
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By RAW it works the other way around, actually. You can emulate a class feature, but not an entire class. So when the ring says:
The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle,
this precludes the rogue from activating it with UMD. What I'm asserting is that an Oracle can use the Emulate Class Feature option of UMD to emulate a different Mystery and activate the ring.
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By RAW it works the other way around, actually. You can emulate a class feature, but not an entire class. So when the ring says:
The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle,this precludes the rogue from activating it with UMD. What I'm asserting is that an Oracle can use the Emulate Class Feature option of UMD to emulate a different Mystery and activate the ring.
So why couldn't a rogue use the Emulate Class Feature option to UMD the ring? I mean, isn't the whole point of UMD convincing the magic item you are something that you aren't?
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I think I'm going to flag this for movement to the Rules forum, but for what it's worth I agree with Poly, for the exact same reason.
Let's say the item description said
If you have the evasion class feature, you take half damage on a failed reflex saving throw. The ring has no effect unless worn by a creature named trollbill
It wouldn't matter what your UMD skill is, there's no UMD option to emulate being named trollbill.
However if you do happen to be named trollbill, you can make a DC 20 UMD check to emulate the evasion feature. It doesn't give you evasion, but the ring's power means you always take half damage on a failed throw.
Similarly there's no UMD option to emulate a class, just a class feature.
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Ring of Bilious Trolling
Aura faint enchantment and abjuration; CL 3rd
Slot Ring; Price 3500 gp; Weight -
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Description
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This tarnished silver ring bears the white-enamelled image of a leering face. It was created to aid the wearer in haranguing adversaries while mitigating retaliation. It grants the wearer a +5 competence bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize an opponent. If the wearer must make a reflex saving throw against an effect that deals fire damage, he takes only half damage on a failed save. The ring has no effect unless worn by a creature named trollbill.
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Construction Requirements
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Forge Ring, Resist Energy, Cause Fear; Cost 1750 gp
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What I find interesting is that there is now an oracle archetype (Spirit Guide) which lets you play with wandering shaman spirits, and many of their hexes look suspiciously like oracle revelations to me.
Yeah, I recognize that most of the hexes are quite different from revelations that bear the same name, but some are completely unchanged. Still, the designers have given Spirit Guide Oracles a chance to play now with at least some of the revelations of other Oracle mysteries...
I note that none of them are the ones that I would have bought a ring of revelation for, though:
* Awesome display
* Channeling (yeah, the life spirit gives it to you, but so late!)
* Sidestep Secret
I think that the designers of the Shaman class were careful to keep the coolest Oracle toys out of the Shaman Spirit Hex list.
Hmm
The important thing to consider is that UMD emulates a class feature.. it does not give that feature to you. If you activate the ring it adds a revelation to the already existing class feature. Since you don't have the class feature of an oracle mystery that's not your own, the ring won't allow you to do what you want for the exact same reason that a non-oracle can't make any use of it either.
Revelation is a separate named class feature from Mystery, just like Bloodline Feat is a separate named class feature from Bloodline for Sorcerers. The available selections for each of the former are contingent upon the latter, but they are still separate class features.
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.
While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring.
The ring's only interaction with the Mystery class feature is a prerequisite check. It doesn't require "using" the Mystery class feature (which in itself only grants bonus spells). If the wearer meets it, whether honestly or with UMD, the ring grants access to its stored revelation.
If you ask me, oracles could still be empowered.
Even the awesome display oracle of heavens has it´s weaknesses and you are fairly limited in what todo, partially to the oracle spell list.
I´m in support of oracles using that ring this way.
It´s quite an investment.
Also there shouldn´t be too much table variation about UMD.
Ring of revelation on oracle: yes.
Ring of revelation on other classes: maybe table variation, but only because of that clause of "oracle only".
You could still argue that means it has no effects on non-oracles, but if you UMD to be an oracle, you get the effect.
That is what UMD was actually written for in my opinion.
What might actually be cool for some sorcerers.
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Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.
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Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
UMD seems pretty clear that it works with another class, rather than the same class that you are. A bones oracle is still an oracle, meaning that you can't use a life oracle's ring. Which leads to odd situations where UMD should be useable, but isn't. Example: if the above Trollbill's ring said "the rogue's evasion class feature", then Trollbill couldn't UMD the ring if he had one level in rogue.
