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double crossbow reads...
Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
Vital strike reads...
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
When making a double-shot with a double crossbow, do you get vital strike bonus damage on each bolt? My reading of RAW says yes. It is neither a crit nor precision damage.
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if vital strike was percision damage, then it would be ignored against opponents who are immune to critical hits, like sneak attack. which is most definately not in the rules of vital strike.
and Kazaan, if you have a heavy crossbow, and you use gravity bow, it's 2d8. great vital strike will give you 8d8 on two bolts.
Design Manager
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Right, the "base weapon damage" of a Double Crossbow is 1d8/1d8, so it seems that Vital Strike would increase it to 2d8/2d8. It might be interesting to get some clarification here, but as currently written it seems like your starting damage for a Vital Strike with a Double Crossbow would be a total of 4d8. Probably not too game breaking considering the -4 penalty after taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use the weapon and the fact that following the 4 feat chain up to Crossbow Mastery still only has you reloading as a move action.
So for 6 feats, you can make one attack for 4d8 each round, assuming you don't move. Whoopie! I can't see this being terribly useful for anyone other than human Fighters using the Crossbowman archetype.
Does anyone know if this has come up with the Double-Barreled Firearms?
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Design Manager
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You know, if this actually works, I was thinking of doing something like:
Human Crossbowman 25 point build
STR 10 DEX 19 (+2 Human, +1 level) CON 10 INT 18(+2 level) WIS 10 CHA 10
1st: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow)
2nd:Rapid Shot
3rd:Crossbow Mastery
4th:Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Double Crossbow)
(Master of Many Styles) 5th: Kirin Style, Kirin Strike
6th: Vital Strike
7th:Weapon Focus (Double Crossbow)
8th: Weapon Specialization (Double Crossbow)
9th: Devastating Strike
10th: Quickdraw
11th: Improved Vital Strike
12th:Greater Weapon Specialization (Double Crossbow)
That'll give you a base damage of 3d8 + 3d8 + (5(DEX)x2) + 8(Double INT)+ (4(Greater Weapon Specialization)x2) + (4 (Devastating Strike)x2) + (2 (Crossbow Expert)x2) , or about 86 max damage before crit, 44 minimum damage, 62 average damage. All of that before stat boosting items and weapon enhancements. You'll also have comparatively sick skills thanks to the boosted INT and being human. You could look at dropping Quickdraw for Deadly Aim to boost the damage up some more, but I think with the hit you're taking from using the Double Crossbow, you're better off being able to drop it and switch to a Heavy Crossbow as a free action in case some baddies manage to get right up in your business.
Could be worth playing. You won't be outdamaging many barbarians or even other archers, but you've got a pretty viable sniper build.
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Design Manager
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Bzzt, wrong. Vital Strike doesn't add damage to each shot, it only adds the damage once. It's not "increasing" damage but "adding" bonus damage. So 1d8 (primary shot) + 1d8 (secondary shot) + 1d8 (vital strike) nets you 3d8 damage; not 4d8.
Vital Strike says "When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength..."
My weapon's damage dice for the single attack I've made which fired 2 bolts are 1d8 and 1d8. If I roll them twice I've got 2d8 and 2d8. Unless and until there's some clarification on Vital Strike and double ranged weapons that can fire multiple bolts/bullets as a single attack, my interpretation is just as valid as yours, so why don't you rein in the attitude a bit?|
Design Manager
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Because you're incorrect and I hate it when people are incorrect. Especially when the correct information is placed in front of them on a silver platter and they refuse to acknowledge it. Look at the table for the double crossbow. Does it say 1d8/1d8? No. It just says 1d8. You don't roll the total dice of the attack twice, just the weapon's damage dice. The ability to fire an extra shot is merely a special ability of this particular weapon. Furthermore, from a logical standpoint, the nature of Vital Strike is that you're aiming for a weak point on a target to inflict extra damage. A double crossbow's second shot isn't going to be able to hit that same exact spot; it would be offset by a small margin. So it isn't entitled to double dip the bonus damage from Vital Strike. It's all right there in black and a sort of off-white, yellowish, parchment looking color. Accept the disproof of the hypothesis and move on.
And you're clearly being a jerk who can't accept that any opinion other than your own might be valid. Look at the references. Vital Strike says to "Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice". A Double Crossbow "fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you're proficient with it, or –8 if you're not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts."
My damage dice are a d8 for each bolt fired on my single attack. If I'm rolling them twice, that's 2d8 per bolt.
You haven't provided any information that is more concise or clear than what I've provided, and you certainly aren't furthering the discussion with your holier-than-thou attitude.
To be be clear: I NEVER MADE A SECOND ATTACK. I made one attack, and Vital Strike says I roll the damage dice for that attack twice. Since my damage dice are a d8 per bolt, that means I would roll each d8 twice, unless there is some clarification stating otherwise.
The closest commentary to this issue I can find is this about the double pistol which is somewhat similar.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lzdl?Double-Barrel-Pistol-Questions#2
I haven't reviewed the double cross bow though
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Design Manager
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The closest commentary to this issue I can find is this about the double pistol which is somewhat similar.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lzdl?Double-Barrel-Pistol-Questions#2
I haven't reviewed the double cross bow though
The biggest difference between the double-barreled Pistol and the Double Crossbow is that the Double Crossbow is very clearly one attack roll based on the wording (similar to Manyshot), whereas the Double Barreled pistol allows you to make two attack rolls with a single action.
And even in that case, you'll notice that the OP in that thread concluded that Vital Strike should work for that weapon based on the designer input. I'm not using that conclusion as evidence one way or the other, but it does make it clear that there is room for interpretation here, particularly since the twinned attacks of the Double Crossbow are even more closely intertwined than the dual attacks of the Double Barreled Pistol.|
Design Manager
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Curb your enthusiasm. I already pointed out that you don't roll "their" damage twice, you roll "it's" damage twice; not the damage of each bolt but the single damage value listed for the weapon, 1d8. As always in Pathfinder, unless explicitly exempted, multiplication factors don't compound. 2x and 2x gives you 3x, not 4x. You haven't provided any evidence as to how or why the double crossbow is exempted from this basic, fundamental rule. You claim that the damage for the weapon is 2d8 because it fires two shots, each one being 1d8. The rules list its base weapon damage as 1d8. Lastly, I gave a clear response to the question first. You were the one who then tried to counter it. Your position isn't supported by the rules and I pointed that out. You then decided to take offense to me shutting you down. Before you go and call someone a jerk, make very sure you aren't just projecting. Case closed,...
Yeah, except it's not and your multiplier reference has nothing to do with the situation being discussed. The multiplier rule states that only the base weapon die are multiplied in situations like critical hits, and that two doubles makes a triple, etc. That has nothing to do with how Vital Strike affects a weapon that delivers two bolts simultaneously with a single action.
I'm not taking offense at your "shutting me down" I'm taking offense at the fact that you're coming into this thread with a smarmy know-it-all attitude and rather than having a reasoned discussion, you are acting like a self-righteous child ready to set the world on fire for disputing his "proof" that the world is flat.My position is just as valid as yours and just as supported by the rules. Vital Strike states that you roll the "Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice". My attack has two bolts which both qualify for Vital Strike by virtue of the unique nature of the Double Crossbow. None of your poorly quoted, unlinked references has successfully disputed this. Now, I'd appreciate it if you stopped with your "Bzzt wrong" "case closed" and other intentionally offensive and snide little remarks and either stuck to providing your view without being rude and confrontational, or find another thread to troll.