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Leonid Brezhnev III?
Jimmy-Bob Ritchie?
Isaac Goldman?
Pinko Luxemberg?
The Goblin Once Again Known As Chemnitz? (look up a map of East Germany from before 1989 if you don't get that one)
George W. Bush?
Wait. David Duke = Jesse Jackson, and Cornel West is crazy?
What did I miss?
I think many people hear 'white privilege' and think of the old Eddie Murphy SNL skit where he gets done up as a white person, and goes around getting free money from banks and stuff. I think it is far more subtle, and varies by situation, location, and many other factors.
I see it most obviously when I get involved with any court setting. There is almost always a disproportionate number of minorities coming up before the judge, and I think that starts with more getting pulled over and ends with more in jail. Having been before judges on several occasions, I'm always glad to be white and well spoken in those situations, although I know it isn't fair.
I don't have time at the moment, but the town I live in is 85+% white, and race is a factor in many aspects of life here.
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From the stories my (Pakistani) workmate told me of visiting his dad in Florida, I get the impression white privilege is not getting pulled over by the police four times in a two-hour drive from the airport.
As a white person my culture is treated as something to be ashamed of, and minority groups are more As a white. free to express and revel in their unique heritages.
As a white person very interested in my racial heritage, I have never seen this. I have a strong ethnic identity, and I don't get s++$ for it. My Mom's side is German-American, my Dawns is Irish-American, and my Stepdad is so Italian it puts off actual Italians. I've never been told any of this identity is a bad thing.
Mix up a puerto rican and a mexican and you will catch hell. Mix up a german and french man, or just say they are both just white, and HE will be in the wrong to argue it.
That really depends on how you correct people.
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. . .Dude, if you mix up a Frenchman and a German, they'll join forces to beat you up for not knowing the difference, and World War Two. In my experience, no one cares if you identify as european-american, french-american or german-american, but it's boorish (not Beor-ish, different thing) to say, "You're african-american, that dude's hispanic-american, and I'm just american."
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I think it's funny that the CEO of the company I work for is from South Africa but can't be called African-American because he's white.
I think it's funny that the CEO of the company I work for is from South Africa but can't be called African-American because he's white.
Blame historical context.
This isn't universal, of course, but I know some guys who immigrated frm Ghana who call themselves Ghanan-Americans rather than African-Americans because of the historical context of the second. To them, the descendants of slaves who have been in the US for centuries are distinct from recent African immigrants.
Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.
Personally, I find white privilege offensive, rather than attempts to acknowledge and combat it. White privilege is very real...even if you don't realize it. Or more accurately, because you don't.
Ok so what if you look white, others assume you are white but you do not self identify as white? Should you "check your privilege" or can you live as what you think of yourself as without the guilt?
Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.Personally, I find white privilege offensive, rather than attempts to acknowledge and combat it. White privilege is very real...even if you don't realize it. Or more accurately, because you don't.
Other than insulting and verbal beatings to whites who get involved in race discussions with out self flagellation HOW do you combat it?
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Other than insulting and verbal beatings to whites who get involved in race discussions with out self flagellation HOW do you combat it?
In a word? Empathy.
I'm a white male. But I'm a white male who grew up in Hawaii, at a time when racial slurs were openly used against the light-skinned. And I don't just mean some people used them....pretty much everyone did. School employees, civil servants, etc. At the time, of course, I hated it. In hindsight, I think it gave me some perspective. So while I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be black, I do have some experience living with a culture of racism. And it sucks, not matter how "subtle" it happens to be.
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Is it too much to ask to just treat people as human beings?This is probably the best example in this thread of exactly what white privilege is and how it operates. People who identify as "white" (myself included) tend not to be confronted with that identity very often, so we aren't forced to critically examine what it means. It's very easy to feel like we are just "normal", and overlook the fact that "normal" (as in, "aligns with mainstream culture") is not some purely neutral default, but actually is a specific collection of traits and values (including, yes, being white). As a result, we feel like if we treat everyone as though they were "normal", that's the same thing as treating them as if they were "human beings", when it's really not. If we were better able to see the call for "treat everyone the same" as "treat everyone as if they were white males", it might become more obvious why that is an... unworkable suggestion. Treating people like human beings should never mean "treat people the same", and encouraging people to take differences in experiences and opportunities into account should never be seen as "special treatment", it should be the default.
The push back against this seems to be something akin to the tired sophistry about how political correctness stifles thought and communication - that if we spend so much time trying to sort out what the right words are and how our cultural history might be coloring our perspectives, we end up becoming a bunch of navel-gazing solipsists who are too afraid to peer out of our critical examinations of identity for fear of being labelled "racists". At best, the argument goes, forcing all this self examination and reflection on people is an exhausting, tedious punishment for the crime of "being white".
Ironically, this very argument demonstrates exactly how "being white" is privileged. People get upset at the idea of having to confront their "race" and identity before speaking, because it seems exhausting, and...
This is why I pointed out that it was a rhetorical question. I knew that it was impossible and someone was likely to come along and explain how I'm wrong for thinking people shouldn't be treated as lesser people for having a different skin color because as a white person I just don't know any better. I'm actually surprised if took this long.
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This is why I pointed out that it was a rhetorical question. I knew that it was impossible and someone was likely to come along and explain how I'm wrong for thinking people shouldn't be treated as lesser people for having a different skin color because as a white person I just don't know any better. I'm actually surprised if took this long.
Only that isn't what happened. But as you pointed out, you'd already made up your mind what the response was going to be, so what actually happened doesn't really matter.
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"White privilege" isn't about guilt. It's about recognizing the institutional prejudices and not reinforcing them, even if that's just by not denying that they exist and effect others.
Well said.
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Other than insulting and verbal beatings to whites who get involved in race discussions with out self flagellation HOW do you combat it?In a word? Empathy.
I'm a white male. But I'm a white male who grew up in Hawaii, at a time when racial slurs were openly used against the light-skinned. And I don't just mean some people used them....pretty much everyone did. School employees, civil servants, etc. At the time, of course, I hated it. In hindsight, I think it gave me some perspective. So while I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be black, I do have some experience living with a culture of racism. And it sucks, not matter how "subtle" it happens to be.
How about that. I'm a white male and have lived almost my entire life in a city where whites have never been the majority. It’s surprising that you and I, as whites from similar backgrounds, just don't believe the exact same things. It's almost like we're individuals and not part of some monolithic group. Oops, is my racism showing again?
Oops, is my racism showing again?
Nope...just your defensiveness. Acknowledge our differences is not racist...just realistic.
If you really want to be part of the solution, take a step back and try to picture yourself on the wrong side of centuries of ingrained racism. You won't be able to do it -- any more than I can -- but you might get enough of an inkling to help with that chip on your shoulder.
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Other than insulting and verbal beatings to whites who get involved in race discussions with out self flagellation HOW do you combat it?In a word? Empathy.
I'm a white male. But I'm a white male who grew up in Hawaii, at a time when racial slurs were openly used against the light-skinned. And I don't just mean some people used them....pretty much everyone did. School employees, civil servants, etc. At the time, of course, I hated it. In hindsight, I think it gave me some perspective. So while I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be black, I do have some experience living with a culture of racism. And it sucks, not matter how "subtle" it happens to be.
Then these conversations should be about empathy from all people for all people not the usual attacks of white privilege. Just as i cannot know what it is like to be black they cannot know what it is like to live in fear of retaliation for what people of my skin color did to someone of theirs at some time, to be threaten with it regularly, to be told that the school can have a african american, etc club but no such club for any variety of white. We need to get beyond race. and yes that does mean to treat all equal even if some want more/better/different.
Then these conversations should be about empathy from all people for all people not the usual attacks of white privilege. Just as i cannot know what it is like to be black they cannot know what it is like to live in fear of retaliation for what people of my skin color did to someone of theirs at some time, to be threaten with it regularly, to be told that the school can have a african american, etc club but no such club for any variety of white. We need to get beyond race. and yes that does mean to treat all equal even if some want more/better/different.
I'm sorry you see acknowledging white privilege as an attack. I see it as the starting point for serious discussion.
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I read some of these responses and it's like reading the responses from some of the MRA guys vs. feminist arguments against sexism and sexual assault. Not exactly the same, but BOY are the parallels there.
Then these conversations should be about empathy from all people for all people not the usual attacks of white privilege. Just as i cannot know what it is like to be black they cannot know what it is like to live in fear of retaliation for what people of my skin color did to someone of theirs at some time, to be threaten with it regularly, to be told that the school can have a african american, etc club but no such club for any variety of white. We need to get beyond race. and yes that does mean to treat all equal even if some want more/better/different.Other than insulting and verbal beatings to whites who get involved in race discussions with out self flagellation HOW do you combat it?In a word? Empathy.
I'm a white male. But I'm a white male who grew up in Hawaii, at a time when racial slurs were openly used against the light-skinned. And I don't just mean some people used them....pretty much everyone did. School employees, civil servants, etc. At the time, of course, I hated it. In hindsight, I think it gave me some perspective. So while I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be black, I do have some experience living with a culture of racism. And it sucks, not matter how "subtle" it happens to be.
Now this is very well said.
From the stories my (Pakistani) workmate told me of visiting his dad in Florida, I get the impression white privilege is not getting pulled over by the police four times in a two-hour drive from the airport.
If I drove like my (Pakistani) former next-door neighbor, I'd never get there from the airport, because they'd have taken my license away by the sixth or eighth time I was pulled over for doing things like "driving on the sidewalk" and "failure to acknowledge laws of physics" and "refusal to accept that other cars, barriers, pits, etc. are real objects."
So I'm going to presume that your workmate's driving was vastly better than my neighbor's. (Toonces the Cat's driving was also vastly better than my neighbor's.)
The push back against this seems to be something akin to the tired sophistry about how political correctness stifles thought and communication - that if we spend so much time trying to sort out what the right words are and how our cultural history might be coloring our perspectives, we end up becoming a bunch of navel-gazing solipsists who are too afraid to peer out of our critical examinations of identity for fear of being labelled "racists". At best, the argument goes, forcing all this self examination and reflection on people is an exhausting, tedious punishment for the crime of "being white".
Accusing others of sophistry while using it to try and discredit opposing viewpoints.
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And now, a Musical Interlude.
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Oops, is my racism showing again?Nope...just your defensiveness. Acknowledge our differences is not racist...just realistic.
If you really want to be part of the solution, take a step back and try to picture yourself on the wrong side of centuries of ingrained racism. You won't be able to do it -- any more than I can -- but you might get enough of an inkling to help with that chip on your shoulder.
That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.
Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color.
I CANT EVEN...I'm laughing so hard at the irony here that I'm on the verge of CRYING.
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That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.
Nor should you.
But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.
That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.Nor should you.
But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.
I'm getting a clinc in proper civil discourse and patience from you here Bugleyman.
In all seriousness though, what you said here is something I think more people need to understand. That and acknowledging white privilege isnt going to make someone burst into flames with guilt and shame. That's not the intent.
It's no different that acknowledging that women in general have to concern themselves with their physical safety in a way that men simply do not. Is it wrong for me to acknowledge that? Does it make me and awful person? No, it quite simply something that IS. And something that I do take into consideration when I'm around women who don't know me well or at all. My physical presence CAN be perceived as a possible threat. That's simply reality.
. . .Dude, if you mix up a Frenchman and a German, they'll join forces to beat you up for not knowing the difference, and World War Two.
I'm a German-American, and I wouldn't really care if I got mixed up with a French-American (not that this has ever happened).
Then again, my uncle is a Plastic Paddy who gets pissed off gigantically if you ever remind him he has English blood or say anything nice about the English at all.
In my experience, no one cares if you identify european-american, french-american or german-american, but it's boorish (not Beor-ish, different thing) to say, "You're african-american, that dude's hispanic-amirican, and I'm just american."
Yea. Referring to yourself as just American while singling out the ethnic identities of others does come across to me as a bit bigoted.
That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.Nor should you.
But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.
I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.
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Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color.I CANT EVEN...I'm laughing so hard at the irony here that I'm on the verge of CRYING.
What this means is that you, like many others, don't know what irony actually is.
If I said I hate being grouped with whites while saying all blacks are the same, that would be ironic. Hopefully this explanation will allow you to use the word properly in the future.
OTOH, I generally think of African-Americans as just Americans too. Unless there's some reason to distinguish, in which case I'd almost certainly use white for me and either African-American or black for them. Mostly because black can cause offense in some cases, while white doesn't.
Well, I do think of African-Americans as being every bit as American as I am, and referring to somebody as just American when you apply that term equally to all ethnic groups isn't offensive at all. It's when somebody says "I'm just American, and you are African-American or Mexican-American" that it gets offensive. At that point, you are acting as if your ethnicity as normal for Americans and doesn't need mentioning (and I'll give you just one guess as to which ethnicity that might be), and the other person's ethnicity is not normal and needs to be pointed out.
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I don't think of myself as European-American, much less any specific country. There would be at least 4 countries that I know of and they're all at least 4 generations back, some much farther.
Maybe it's a duration thing, then. Mrs. Gersen's relatives up here in Western PA are very aggressively "Croatian-Americans," with emphasis on the Croatian. I personally think of myself as much German as American... and after all my time in the Lone Star State I'm almost inclined to think my American half is more Texan than American!
The sad truth is that, for many African-Americans, their ancestors were forcibly brought over from any number of different cultures, records were not kept, and the only way to narrow down likelihoods is by DNA analysis. So most people can't fall back on the kind of knowledge that, say, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar grew up with:
My family was brought to America by a French planter named Alcindor, who came here from Trinidad in the 18th century. My people were Yoruba, and their culture survived slavery.
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I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.Nor should you.
But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.
That sounds great but so far your only point in this entire thread is to talk about how racism somehow overwhelmingly effects whites.
While I'm sure racism DOES effect whites you come across like the man in a thread discussing sexism and sexual assualt that cries out "but men are victims of rape too!!"Men ARE victims of rape. Absolutely. But the OVERWHELMING victims of rape and sexual assault are women. And the guy no matter how well meaning who cries out that "men are raped too!!" comes across as trying to deflect from the actual problem. Some people would call that a sense of entitlement from being male. Some would call it a form of silencing. You know "well the people complaining of racism are racists too so they should just shut up." or "if everyone just stopped being racist/talking about racism/acknowledging race" etc...
Me I just call it poor form old chap...
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I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.Nor should you.
But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.
Unfortunate use of the word irony aside, that's still incredibly ignorant.
Nobody says only whites can be racist.
OK, most people don't say that. A very select few do. Just like a few people will say all heterosexual sex is rape. But their numbers are so negligible that they could hardly be counted at all and are more often used as a strawman to conflate valid arguments with ridiculous ones.
It's not that people of any race cannot be racist. It's just that institutionally whites have power in America. That's such a plain fact to say it isn't a level of denial I can't even begin to debate with. And the problem is not that people are racist - which sucks, but will never be solved - but that this particular racism is widespread and institutionalized.
Taken individually, it doesn't matter if Abdul next door to me thinks all white people are shifty-eyed devils, or if Jim Bob down the street thinks all blacks are intellectually inferior criminals.
What matters is that our entire culture had been built upon the backs of an oppressed people, and in many ways continues to do so while also disenfranchising those who are identified by other socially outlying features. That is what needs to be fixed, and ignoring it is a tacit endorsement of a system that is still heavily weighted against minorities. Deflecting onto those individuals whose attitudes you find distasteful gives you an all-too-convenient excuse not to worry about how those people are treated.
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From the stories my (Pakistani) workmate told me of visiting his dad in Florida, I get the impression white privilege is not getting pulled over by the police four times in a two-hour drive from the airport.If I drove like my (Pakistani) former next-door neighbor, I'd never get there from the airport, because they'd have taken my license away by the sixth or eighth time I was pulled over for doing things like "driving on the sidewalk" and "failure to acknowledge laws of physics" and "refusal to accept that other cars, barriers, pits, etc. are real objects."
So I'm going to presume that your workmate's driving was vastly better than my neighbor's. (Toonces the Cat's driving was also vastly better than my neighbor's.)
Well, I've never seen your neighbour drive, but let's just say I've voluntarily asked my workmate for a lift more than once.
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I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.Nor should you.
But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.
That sounds great but so far your only point in this entire thread is to talk about how racism somehow overwhelmingly effects whites.
While I'm sure racism DOES effect whites you come across like the man in a thread discussing sexism and sexual assualt that cries out "but men are victims of rape too!!"Men ARE victims of rape. Absolutely. But the OVERWHELMING victims of rape and sexual assault are women. And the guy no matter how well meaning who cries out that "men are raped too!!" comes across as trying to deflect from the actual problem. Some people would call that a sense of entitlement from being male. Some would call it a form of silencing. You know "well the people complaining of racism are racists too so they should just shut up." or "if everyone just stopped being racist/talking about racism/acknowledging race" etc...
Me I just call it poor form old...
Trying to call out everyone who practices racism in a thread about the evils of racism hardly seems like deflection.
Do whites practice racism? Absolutely.
Do blacks practice racism? Absolutely.
Do Hispanics practice racism? Absolutely.
Do I practice racism? Never.
If people truly want racism to end, then everyone needs to stop being racist. I know it's not going to end because thousands of years of evolution have designed humans to group themselves and see different groups as bad. But I'm going to attempt to do my part to try to break out of that.
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I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.
And I don't think I accused you of saying racism doesn't exist.
What I meant was that ignoring race entirely -- assuming such a thing is possible -- actually enables racism unless everyone does it. And since we know that not everyone does...
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Do whites practice racism? Absolutely.
Do blacks practice racism? Absolutely.
Do Hispanics practice racism? Absolutely.
Do I practice racism? Never.
However:
Do whites have an entrenched advantage in the U.S. overall? Absolutely.Do blacks have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do hispanics have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do I benefit from this power disparity? Often, even if I don't see it.
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However:
Do whites have an entrenched advantage in the U.S. overall? Absolutely.
Do blacks have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do hispanics have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do I benefit from this power disparity? Often, even if I don't see it.
I think that's key -- realizing it exists, even if you often don't see it. For me, that took being on the other side of things.
Do whites practice racism? Absolutely.
Do blacks practice racism? Absolutely.
Do Hispanics practice racism? Absolutely.
Do I practice racism? Never.However:
Do whites have an entrenched advantage in the U.S. overall? Absolutely.
Do blacks have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do hispanics have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do I benefit from this power disparity? Often, even if I don't see it.
Sure, I'll agree with that. Am I going to feel guilty about something I have no control over? Absolutely not. I'll continue to treat others as I wish to be treated, as individuals. If guilt isn't the point, as some have said, then what is the point? What is the next step after everyone acknowledges it? What is the ultimate goal behind having all white people agree that white privilege exists?