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It's a shame that it came to this. Conflicts like this tend to have lasting effects on the players' relationships. Some words are coming to mind: ego and maturity. Some players can handle something like this and keep the conflict strictly in game. Others avoid it entirely by always putting a greater priority on getting along with other players over "realistic" role playing. I only say realistic because in a group whose existence involves regular violence, these kinds of situations will eventually pop up.
Not having first hand knowledge of the events, my suggestion is to turn the sorcerer into an NPC villain. The player will have to roll up a new character. Maybe they can work things out in game though. Good luck sir.
You told us what happened in character, how about out-of-character?
Were the other players having fun? Are they looking forward to the PvP? Has this player made problems before, either in this campaign or in other campaigns?
The first question should be, do you really want him back at the table? If you told him, "you're not part of the party anymore, so you don't need to come over" would the rest of the players sigh a collective sigh of relief, or would they be disappointed?
After you let us know what you want to do about the player, we can give you ideas on how to deal with his character.
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Rule 1 "No Evils"
Rule 2. No PvP" (includes stealing from the party)
Sit down the two players and talk with them like adults. Tell them these two new rules.
You can NOT solve issues like this IC, they must be solved OOC.
I'd have the sorc bring in a new PC.
Things like this are why I very rarely allow evil PC's. Most groups have at least one person that doesn't know how to handle it.
Unless you and every single one of the players seem to be having a good time, I would say, "Rocks fall everyone dies."
"Now make new PC's that are not at all similar to your current PC's.
No evil PC's.
PvP will not be tolerated."
If everyone is having fun, it's a different story. But from you description, I would guess that is not the case.
First, you need to figure out if the character and/or the player is the problem. If it's just the character, the group can come to an agreement and fix that. While not orthodox, Player vs Player is fine if everyone's on board with it.
If the player is disrupting the game and doesn't want to stop, then he needs to leave. If he won't leave, the GM needs to kick him out. If the GM won't kick him out, then gather the other players and leave the game.
You play Pathfinder to have fun with friends. If someone is ruining everyone else's fun, they don't belong at the table. If a GM is content to let a person do so, then that GM doesn't deserve to have players at his table. It's that simple.
Three key things to help: communication, communication, communication.
As DM it was and is your responsibility to manage expectations and set restrictions. Was PVP ever part of the plan for the campaign? If not, why allow evil characters? Do you want it to turn into PVP now? (I'm assuming not).
Now that the damage is done, it's time to speak to all your players together and the sorceror separately. Set expectations about working together (or not). See how everyone wants to resolve this before strong negative feelings become entrenched.
As an absolute last resort, if your sorceror is unwilling or incapable of working with the group it may be time to part ways.
yeah it probably should be in advice i just thought since i was basically asking the rules on players killing players but yeah
The only rules for that are the ones you and your players make. That said, player versus player conflict seldom ends up well; it requires a great deal of maturity (and no, not age) to deal with this sort of thing. Usually it results in bad feelings and can even break up gaming circles.
Additionally, having someone who has to be Evil (with a capital E) and mustache twirling and betraying his own party seldom works out well either. From discussions on the board and first hand experience, you seldom see people with the subtlety to pull it off without being a cartoon.
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Rule 1 "No Evils"
Rule 2. No PvP" (includes stealing from the party)
Yup, exactly!
A standing rule we used to have (back in ye olden days) was that any evil characters/PvP immediately becomes property of the GM, to be used as NPCs.
So yes, the players can have their very satisfying battle royale against the diabolically evil sorcerer. And the offending player can even join in the fun, as a newly created, good-aligned PC.
There's nothing wrong with telling your players "No PVP allowed of any shape, way, form, or type in my games. I don't care what your character would want to do; change him if that's the case."
Also, on the question of NPCs detecting alignment: remember detect evil is a first level paladin ability and a low-level spell. It's perfectly reasonable in a high-magic world like Golarion to have NPCs capable of using it in many, or depending on the level, most encounters.
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Rule 1 "No Evils"
Rule 2. No PvP" (includes stealing from the party)Yup, exactly!
A standing rule we used to have (back in ye olden days) was that any evil characters/PvP immediately becomes property of the GM, to be used as NPCs.
So yes, the players can have their very satisfying battle royale against the diabolically evil sorcerer. And the offending player can even join in the fun, as a newly created, good-aligned PC.
Isn't it funny that DrDeth and EvilTwinSkippy agree on "No Evils"?
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everyone but the sorc was having fun, the people dont like each other too much it seems the more they talk the more they dislike each other. this player has trouble with anyone who doesnt play pathfinder pretty seriously.
Abort. Abort!
Seriously, if the players don't like each other, it's probably going to leak into the game eventually. This looks like only one symptom of a larger problem. This game's a way for people to get together and have fun. Nobody wants to have fun with someone they don't even like--unless the fun part is demolishing the other person. But, again, Pathfinder isn't really designed for that.
Many players are stupid, as soon as you mention the word "evil" they assume that means mass murdering, mass thieving PvP machine who wont rest until he pisses off/kills every single party member and has all their loot so I understand why most GM would outlaw evil characters but that's not the only way to play it.
Look at organized crime,biker gangs or the mafia who most everyone would consider evil, do they have disagreements? Sure, but do they go around stealing and killing off their friends? No they dont, it does happen dont get me wrong, but it is considered extreme(even by mafia standards!).
Most players think this to be the norm, and so, they act like homicidal maniacs or kleptomaniacal thugs. It's not because your evil that you should be evil with your party, even bad people can have friends. It's ok to play the evil kleptomaniacal thug, but (just like every other alignment) be smart about it.
You don't even have to do no evil, IMO. You just have to put in a hard rule that there's no PVP. Even chaotic evil has a few examples of people who don't arbitrarily murder their colleagues. They're not all the Joker.
There's especially more to be found of LE and NE characters who can play nice in groups.
I'm not saying "don't ban evil", because I understand there's more problems than mere pvp that can be associated with an evil game. I'm just saying it's not necessary to solve the problem of pvp.
Besides, you will then get the same kind of players choosing to play the exact same kind of jerk and label him chaotic neutral.
My group does a very good job of handling evil PC's (I'm currently in one campaign where there is a GMPC wizard who has accidentally and unknowingly rounded up an all neutral/evil party, including my character who is devoted to the nascent demon lord Sitthud) but that's because we work with the assumption that your evil antics should still be beneficial to the party. You don't say "what would my evil character do in this situation", you think "this is what I need to do in this situation, why would my evil character do it".
For example, my character is a homicidal maniac who delights in sowing wintry death wherever she goes; however, she knows that just killing anyone will get her in lots of trouble, and if she gets executed she wouldn't be able to kill anyone at all, and that would be lame. So she focuses on killing people that won't be missed; a life as an adventurer is very well suited to her, because nobody cares if you kill a few orcs.
It sounds like your sorcerer is being very disruptive to the party and is draining the fun from everyone else. Allowing this behavior to continue is a good way to kill your campaign. Talk to him outside of the game and let him know his behavior is problematic; if he understands, great, if not, you might have to let him go.
You can play evil PCs and be absolutely loyal to one another in the group. I don't see being evil as a problem. What is the real issue is PVP. I would never allow that in my campaign or be in a campaign that had it in it.
There is no winner with situations like this. There's no way to keep that as strictly an IC event or situation. Real people are playing those characters and those people are not going to be having much fun with either killing or being killed by their friends.
PvP ends in hurt feelings almost all the time. Had a player once kill the rest of the party as a coup d'etat in Kingmaker. Had a good heart to heart afterwards, but the immediate reaction was not good. Not good at all. Thankfully no one came to blows over it, but after 6 months of slowly building characters and kingdom, it was a hard pill to swallow.
As GM, I felt bad about it. The player who killed the party came to me with his plan and I told him ok, but only because when he described his intention he was just going to incapacitate, then demand that they submit to his rule. Instead he went right from incapacitate to coup de grace and it was all over. I should have told him that it was a terrible idea. I took the blame as much as I could so that the player could save face and we could move on.
Now PvP is a no go at the table. A player actively working against the group becomes an NPC under my control. This really is a cooperative game after all.
Ok so my group of 6 had a fight, and the sorcerer was withholding information from the group in hopes that the group would die, while maintaining a position to try and run from the fight. they win the fight anyway and his idea is to run up, slight of hand loot all the stuff he wants before they can see it. our alchemist catches him doing it and tries to stop him. the sorc threatens the entire party basically saying if they try to stand against him he will kill them all. the alchemist ends up throwing an immolation bomb at him and the sorc manages to steal 3 items and flees. now that sorc is going around trying to get npcs to help him kill the party, saying they are evil and heritics and whatnot. am i out of bounds as a dm to either have him killed or ALLOW my group(who really wants to) to put a hit out on him/go and find and kill him.
also do i allow my high level story npcs to detect alignment? because the sorc is NE and i asume if the npcs can detect alignment then they are alot less likly to trust or listen to him at all.
I would let them do it. With that said I have only allowed PvP in groups that I knew would not make it personal OOC. If this will become a real life problem you might need to talk to the players. If this is just an in game issue then "stand back and watch".
I call for a witch hunt!(Or sorcerer hunt in this case) If the guys being an arse, your players can hunt him down, and when the guys dead, put him in as a new good aligned character, but put a leash on him, for crying out loud!(Figuratively, not literally) Tell the other player to keep an extra close eye on him.
When a player goes from playing evil to being an evil dick and wants to kill the party or get the party killed that char sheet is now an NPC. Which if he wants to turn on the party I'm happy to do but now I'll be doing it with an NPC vs a PC which i think makes a big difference.
I have been in a game where the player who was also the DM tired to kill my char and he did it when i wasn't even there. Good thing was he didn't know about my char trick or he would have died. Needless to say i just plane shifted to the astroplane with my bodyguard. And ever since then i have never let pvp happen on my watch and i tell people ahead of time I'm a no pvp DM and i will take char sheets.
You can try talking to this Sor. But i think your going to have to kill his char off or just take it away from him and make it into an NPC.
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Rule 1 "No Evils"
Rule 2. No PvP" (includes stealing from the party)Sit down the two players and talk with them like adults. Tell them these two new rules.
You can NOT solve issues like this IC, they must be solved OOC.
I'd have the sorc bring in a new PC.
I have to agree with the good doctor
I am playing in the "council of thieves" adventure path and I regularly b***h with a swashbuckler prostitute of Calistra we laugh all the way through the session then do "dear Diary" entries after it
but when it comes down to fighting we work together
if the player is that disruptive and will not listen to reason either get him to establish a new character... or show him the door
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It's kind of like a game system called Deadlands. When you become an evil party killing type your sheet becomes an NPC villain to annoy the pc's until the end of the campaign or until they kill him. Sit down your players, ask if they agree to it and start over from scratch. You can always have your buddy say "look I'm sorry and we got off on the wrong foot. I'd like to continue to play and for my previous actions I'm sorry, will you have me?" But it only works if your friend wants to keep playing with that particular group, if he doesn't he might want to find another game.
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It's kind of like a game system called Deadlands. When you become an evil party killing type your sheet becomes an NPC villain to annoy the pc's until the end of the campaign or until they kill him. Sit down your players, ask if they agree to it and start over from scratch. You can always have your buddy say "look I'm sorry and we got off on the wrong foot. I'd like to continue to play and for my previous actions I'm sorry, will you have me?" But it only works if your friend wants to keep playing with that particular group, if he doesn't he might want to find another game.
that sounds an excellent idea on reflection!
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My take on this situation would be to tell the sorc that by next game he needs to find an in character solution to the party conflict and then implement the no pvp rules. If he is unable to do that offer to solve it with a GM wave of the hand. If he doesn't like that ruling then he needs to go. As an evil character he has to find a reason he likes the party and how it will benefit him in a very long term sense. That can be challenging if you have other selfish personalities but that is why evil is a more mature and advanced type of character to play. His goals with the party have to far outweigh and outreach the temporary goals of any one scenario. Then it would be out of character to create or promote party conflict for him. In truth, if he isn't happy playing then he probably should find another party, or run a different character.
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Really it depends on the out of character interactions here.
You can have an evil character who steals from the party as long is everyone is okay with it out of character and acknowledges that there will be in character consequences when they are caught.
However it seems like based off what you have described that the players have out of character problems and this issue is largely escalating. Have a sit down with your players and discuss the issue and if it is causing bad blood then shut that thing down. Remember the goal is to have fun as a group. When one player is having fun at the expense of everyone else you will run into problems.
If players genuinely have a problem with each other out of character then they need to resolve that themselves the DM can't fix that for them. The best you can do there is ask them to keep it out of the game.