The archetype Blade Adept gives an Arcanist a sword which is treated as an Arcane Bond and (eventually) a Black Blade.
Does this allow the weapon to progress as a Black Blade normally does AND add additional enhancements at half cost, per the Arcane Bond rules?
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Not PFS specific.
No, it allows you to cast an additional spell per day as a wizard does with their arcane bond even if that spell is not prepared. It also requires you to have the item on you in order to cast your spells.
This faq still applies as having the arcane bond with the weapon is the same as having the perquisite crafting feats.
You can't add to the powers of a black blade, I think UM has a faq entry on it.
The problem is that the weapon counts as an Arcane Bond at level 1, and a Black Blade at level 3. What happens if the bonded item is enchanted prior to becoming a Black Blade? Do the enhancements go away?
You would have to work very hard to enhance an arcane bond sword before level three. Craft Magic Arms and Armour requires CL 5, and short of a strange multiclass or getting an ally to do it, you probably won't have the chance.
A third level character can afford a +1 weapon, even if it would be the majority of their wealth. You could pay someone to do it in a town. It's not unheard of for DM's to do that, if a player has a specific rare weapon that they use instead of a classic; ie, Katana or Fauchard.
Well also. you won't always be character lv 1 at arcanist level one. I have a build that starts arcanist at lv 3, so by lv 6 you can really get there.
I generally intend to ask my GM if i can enchant it before, and have the BB enhancements just be the normal way. So if the sword agrees when it gains a +1 i can have it add to the enhancments or it gains special ability.
I think that makes the most sense. Especiallly for the blade adept
They have an exploit that runs the blade off caster level; which really makes you wanna multi class. into a prestige class.
They also have Arcane weapon; like hte magus that allows you power up your blade. If that ability doesn't run off character level then it won't be that useful to a multi class guy. So you'd be stuck at +5 black blade no matter how high you go with it.
so i really think you should be able to enchant it at the cost of whatever bonus it is at the moment. so you could pay for it to end up being a +10, or at least add enchantments that can't be used with Arcane Weapon. There are quite a few ones
PolydactylPolymath wrote: The problem is that the weapon counts as an Arcane Bond at level 1, and a Black Blade at level 3. What happens if the bonded item is enchanted prior to becoming a Black Blade? Do the enhancements go away? Black blades can't be enchanted, and your bonded weapon becomes a black blade at 3rd level.
As such, when 3rd level rolls around, any previous enchantments would be suppressed (if not eliminated) from then on. This may suck if you invested significant resources into said enchantments, but then nobody forced you to take those levels in arcanist or the blade adept archetype.
Of course, you could talk your DM into allowing those prior enchantments to overlap or even stack (more power to you if that's the case), but that would strictly be DM fiat; the Paizo rules guys have been quite clear as to whether or not they want black blades to be enchanted by means other than class levels.
The only source for not enchanting a black blade is this right? http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qux
This doesn't address the problems of enchanting a weapon before it's ablack blade.
The issue being that the magus' black blade archetype just magically gains said weapon. It does not transform a wepaon you already have into a black blade. You just find one so the sitaution never came up.
This issue is different because it's the arcanist themselves that create the black blade via their bond. A blade adept lv 2 wouldn't actually know his power would transform a blade into a black blade. (not that that matters from a mechanical point of view)
so that faq doesn't actually apply to this situation. We're not talking about enchanting a black blade. We're talking about an enchanted blade becoming sentient and a black blade.
So the question is, if a magic weapon becomes a black blade; what happens to the prior enchantments?
The actual class stuff doesn't specify.
So Typically you would think of it as normal for pathfinder. In that unless something specifies it removes an effect or doesn't stack then there shoudln't be an issue.
So two ways to view it. One is that "highest enchancement bonus wins" in which case black blade would eventually go over the base +1.
Secondly you could view black blade as adding to the bonuses. like Dragon Disciple's stat bonuses.
Both cases end up being the same. The original +1 you paid for becomes useless because either it gets over taken by the BB stuff, or the last BB+enhancment doesn't apply anymore. Any extra enchantments you put on it would still stick around though. So good for those agile folks
At worst the first +1 doesn't stack, so you'd still end up with a +1 blackblade with the other enchantments, that go up via the black blade progression after it reaches +2. you just can't boost it via arcane weapon as much
I can't see any reasons in the rules that you can't enchant your arcane bonded weapon prior to black blade. There isn't any sort of stacking issues with it gaining an enhancment bonuses as the black blade raises the enhancment by that number. Once it becomes a black blade you can not enhance it in anyway. So if you start with a magic +1 weapon with whatever on it (say agile or wounding) then, that last bonus enhancement from blackblade's progression doesn't work as it hits the maximum +5 before.
Thats the only way I can see this working due to it being a normal enchantable (at a potential discount too boot) weapon prior to being a black blade.
TLDR
So baring any changes, currently you can enchant the weapon before it becomes a black blade. Then either it addes to it and you lose the +5 cause it maxes out at +5 before. Or it overlaps and only the highest enhancment bonus takes over. So you could end up with black blade's enhancment progression + extras you paid for before it becamea black blade.
It doesn't say that the arcanist creates the black blade, it says their bonded weapon becomes a black blade. Additionaly, a bladebound magus could indeed have a sword they had been carrying since 1st level 'unlock its true potential' and become a black blade.
In any event, the rule is clear, a black blade cannot have any other enchantment on it. Presumably, if an arcanist did get his bonded blade enchanted at 2nd level, it would loose access to that enchantment when the arcanist was wielding it.
Additionally, it seems unlikely that a 'scholar of all things magical' who choose the blade adept path wouldn't know where it was leading.
Scholoar of all things magical is a wizard. Arcanist plays with fundamental forces sometimes they end up in new and amazing places!
Good point on the BB on the magus bit. It could magically appear to him or have his current weapon awaken.
Note before I put this next paragraph. I'm just doing the devil's advocate because this situation can come up in play very easily and i assume in PFS which doesn't allow for much GM fiat. (Though I do personally feel the "higher bonus wins" rule comes into play.
The rule isn't clear. The rules specify you can not further enchant a black blade it says nothing about what happens if your weapon becomes a black blade and it's already magical. It was easily handled in rules for the magus class. A new sword just "pops" up in some magical way instead of your enchanted blade happening.
But arcanist's blade adept specifically calls out what blade will become a BB. Blade adept arcanist could be taken at any character level as well, or heck maybe for an EK they take Arcanist up to lv 2 and then a martial then EK. So it can easily show up in later game levels.
I can't see any reason why this isn't like any other situation where your putting enhancment bonuses on something that already has an enhancment bonus.
Like having a belt of str and someoen casting the str spell on you. The stronger version supercedes the other.
So if I had character lv 5 and I had a long sword+1 with Agile on it, then took lv 3 arcanist and it become a black blade, then the two +1's wouldn't supercede each other, and the agile just chills out. Then once Blade adept's bb gains a +2 it's now the stronger enhancment bonus and just replaces the +1; but the agile property is unaffected because it's not specifically tied to the original +1 (which is still there, just no longer any mechanical usage).
It's the same way Greater magic weapon spell would work, it doesn't remove any none enhancement bonus effects, it just superscedes them if the bonus is bigger.
I haven't read anything in Blade adept, or the magus archetype, or the pages on Black Blades, or the FAQ's that cover that situation. so it defaults ot the normal pathfinder stacking rules--The greater over takes the weaker.
I suppose there might be something in intelligent items section that I don't know. but I didn't bother to look that section up since Blackblade archetypes spell out what it is and specifiy it's a non standard intelligent magic item.
Zwordsman wrote: I can't see any reason why this isn't like any other situation where your putting enhancment bonuses on something that already has an enhancment bonus. Because we're specifically told it isn't like those situations.
FAQ
You can't enchant a Black Blade. If you did enchant it when it was a bonded item, the enchantment is lost once it becomes a Black Blade as per the rules
I did read it. and I read it again just now, and the black blade in magus and blade adept rules.
it says you can't enchant a black blade. That is only about adding enhancements/magic to a Black blade. It's not a black blade when it's being enchanted, it's only a normal sword.
That applied soundly and easily in "just magus" times, when the weapon could come from elsewhere if the GM didn't want that previously enchanted weapon from being a black blade. (though it could still occur.. but it would require some weirdness with money to get enough before lv 3, Or multi classing into Magus at higher levels)
Blade adept only requires it to be a bonded item to the arcanist and fit the weapon requirements. so it can literally be one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon your bonded to at the time of level up. That is the only listed requirements.
It doesn't specify it can't be enchanted when it transforms into a Black blade.
You could bond with a artifact blade and it technically would become a black blade at lv 3 arcanist. Which is just weird 10 ways to sunday.
FAQ
Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?
No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.
That FAQ only points out that you can not add any other properties nor increase it's enhancement. No where does it specify what happens if a already empowered weapon becomes one.
The possibility of what is being transformed into black blade, wasn't (as near as I can tell ) covered. one reason it may not have been covered was because the magus could not increase the blade by caster level. So there was highly unlikely any multi classing going on. A blade adept however can. So you can easily have a situation where someone plays a martial at lower levels and picks up arcanist and eldritch knight a few levels later. Where you could easily have a enchanted blade.
Likely more situations that involve late gaining black blades can occur as time goes on and more builds are built.
And so far the rules don't specify it can be pre enchanted, nor does it cover what happens to enchantments when it becomes a black blade. So the default rules are the Enhancment bonus stacking stuff. Which just means any +# you pay for before it becomes a black blade will be money that kinda just evaporates once the Black blade's get higher.
If a Black Blade has been enchanted, you have either added other properties or increased its enhancement. When that happens is immaterial; it's been done, the Black Blade doesn't allow it, so they go away. I'm not seeing how this isn't straightforward, honestly. "It can't be enchanted" means exactly what it says on the tin.
That faq, and the classes don't say "can not be enchanted" or anything like that. It specifies that yo ucan not add more to a black blade
It literally covers nothing about what is already on it. If it did say can not hold any enchantments other than black blade that would work.
All of those are set after it's a black blade and all of it speaks to adding more. Nothing about what is on it.
Again.. Devils advocate cause it'll come up if it hasn't already. Especially with multi class Arcanists whose arcane weapon probably doesn't scale with anything but arcanist' levels
Devil's advocate is one thing... but there's literally zero rules basis for this. Your entire argument seems to be based on there being a lack of a specific rule against it... when we actually do have that, via FAQ. Then, trying to debate the exact wording of the FAQ answer-- when those aren't meant to be perfectly worded in the first place, they're just meant to clarify a rule. If the RAW is murky, look at the RAI-- Black Blades aren't meant to be enchanted. The rule screws the Blade Adept... but frankly the Blade Adept wasn't exactly a well thought out archetype in the first place.
There is a rules basis. Enhancment overlapping and like the magic weapon spells and normal enchantments. plenty of other ways for similar enchantments to apply to the same thing. it's something that can pop up
The whole situation is weird.
I'm pretty easily set for either way, since really easily balances out from money and power stand point anyway. Since your paying 6k for one enchantment anyway, or your prolonging your leveling in the black blade classes until you can afford more extra enchantments. in which case the black blade won't ever get very high.
but I don't particularly care about the situation and see the opening for it, much less someone who wants it more in a pfs or other situation.
RAI I'm also on the "not likely" camp but RAW nothing directly agianst pre enchanting. so it could quite easily come up win PFS or other games.
Hence the discussion on rules and things I might have missed. Since as it stands "prior to it being a blackblade" has been opened up because of blade adept. So it's good to note what's been opened and discuss thoughts and proccesses. Since PFS GM'ing is kinda hogtied to RAW.
Though looks like it'll be "RAI def not. RAW someone could fight for it in pfs, but in home games easy to shut down."
Zwordsman wrote: Though looks like it'll be "RAI def not. RAW someone could fight for it in pfs, but in home games easy to shut down." Not so; consider for a moment what the FAQ says about black blades.
Quote: Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?
No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.
Note that it doesn't say anything about when Craft Magic Arms and Armor was used to increase enhancement bonus, only that it can't be used to add properties to the a black blade. No caveats or exceptions.
If you were to hypothetically make your arcane focus a +1 spell storing longsword as a 10th-level wizard with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, take 3 levels of black blade adept after the fact, and then declare said longsword to be your black blade, that would still technically be using Craft Magic Arms and Armor to modify your black blade, even if you applied that feat years before you even considered making said sword into a black blade.
Ergo, even if you were to argue this under the most draconian interpretation of game rules, the letter of said rules (as well as the intent behind them) would still be against you.
What happens at this point, one must wonder? Do the original enhancements merely become suppressed, as others (including myself) suggested above, at least until the weapon is no longer a black blade? Do the enhancements get eliminated completely due to the black blade transformation? Does the DM rule that you can't make it into a black blade at all due to the previous enhancements, that you need to abandon that arcane focus and make a new one? Regardless of the DM's ruling, however, it will either need to agree with the above FAQ statement (meaning you don't get your pre-boosted black blade), or the DM will need to rule contrary to it. But the latter is, by definition, a house rule - not RAW.
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