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As the title asks. I have a PFS character in mind who, in terms of thematic RP reasons I would love to make a summoner. However, with the terrible, crippling HP nerf PFS gives to ediolons(It counts them as NPCs meaning their HP is essentially halved from what it would normally be) I am not sure summoners, mechanically, are worth it in PFS. With the HP nerf in place, I cannot see the Ediolon being useful at all as all it will ever do is die unless your using it as a skill monkey/non-combat pet(I've seen some summoner builds that do this..) So that's why I want to turn to all of you. If you have ever played a summoner in PFS, what are your experiences with it. Did your ediolon die all the time? Did you feel like you didn't contribute? Was your pet such a easy-to-kill glass cannon that you ended up feeling like an inferior occultist archtype arcanist? Or am I over-estimating how crippeling the HP nerf is to ediolons? Are PFS summoners viable or does the ediolon HP nerf just make their favorite pet too much of a glass cannon for them to be viable? Share your experiences and opinions please.
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Can you point me to where this rule is printed? I searched both the Additional Resources page and the Guide to Organized Play and came up with nothing.
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Ermmm.. No.
Being an NPC just means that they don't have full HP on their first die. The rest of their dice are fine. They just may be a little fragile for a level, at most
How do I determine hit points for my animal companion?
Animal companions receive average hit points per hit die. For d8, the average is 4.5. Multiply 4.5 times the number of hit dice your animal companion has and round down. Recalculate hit points for your companion each time it gains additional hit dice. After its hit points are calculated, add in appropriate bonuses from its Constitution modifier, feats, and so on.
The only way this is half hit points is if you were house ruling that everyone gets full hit points every level.
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It doesn't have half the HP unless you are talking about level 1.
Basically the rule is a PC gets full HP on level 1 then average round up per level thereafter. An animal companion (and edilon) are average HP.
No, it's not game breaking and I am fairly sure that this rule has been pretty consistent.
Unless you are talking about something else?
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Can you point me to where this rule is printed? I searched both the Additional Resources page and the Guide to Organized Play and came up with nothing.
Animal companions receive average hit points per hit die. For d8, the average is 4.5. Multiply 4.5 times the number of hit dice your animal companion has and round down. Recalculate hit points for your companion each time it gains additional hit dice. After its hit points are calculated, add in appropriate bonuses from its Constitution modifier, feats, and so on.
In addition, a discussion thread to prove this rule also, in fact, applies to eidolons: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mpxe?Animal-Companion-and-Eidolon-Hit-Points
EDIT: I did mess up, they don't get half health period, but they get darn close. They only get a full hit point every other level, if you do the math...which is still a pretty big nerf. So I'd like to know whether or not they are actually viable with the fact they are gaining what amounts to only half a hit point every other level?
But in PFS everyone else is taking the average, too... You're only getting less HP per level than the other D10 classes at level 1, afterwards you're getting 6 HP per level just like everyone else.
Animal Companions have a d8 hit die, which is why they get 4.5 HP. Eidolons have a d10, so you get more.
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Still, though, even with the right math, the Eidolon has, at level 1, the roughly the same HP as a sorcerer/wizard....hardly frontline fighter material. Things get a bit better as they level up, but I still can't see a front-line eidolon working out unless it's a strike and run skirmisher more akin to a rogue then a fighter or used as disposable battlefield control. It just dosen't have the raw HP to frontline and survive for very long and at low levels lacks the AC to shield that wizard-worthy HP total, even with mage armor up. The toughness feat helps a bit, yes, but 8 is still a -tad- low, though not as bad as the 6-7 it would normally get. However, toughness is not the best thing you could be using the eidolon's 1st level feat for....so yeah..
No nerf
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So... eidolons are only good at tanking starting at level 2, not 1, and it's ALWAYS been that way in every version, not just PFS, and that's your definition of a nerf???
Given all the complaints about summoners being overpowered, I'll just say, "Yes, they're still viable", and leave it at that.
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That Tribal Scars feat looks like exactly like the kind of thing I need...however...I must know....how in the heck can an eidolon take that feat when it requires you to be a member of one of the tribes of the north? Does PFS wave the RP prerequisites for feats as well as prestige classes, or where you suggesting it assuming that the whole "My eidolon was a member of X northern tribe who died and now is a spirit-thing bound to my summoner?" kind of excuse would be valid enough to take the feat? If the latter, how would you reconcile the fact it is now considered an outsider and thus no longer a member of X northern tribe? Just curious is all..
Eidolons have never gotten their first hit die at full. Why is this a thing?
Edit: Found rules:
HD:[...]Hit Dice are represented by the number the creature possesses followed by a type of die, such as “3d8.” This value is used to determine a creature's total hit points. In this example, the creature has 3 Hit Dice. When rolling for this creature's hit points, you would roll a d8 three times and add the results together, along with other modifiers.
HP: To determine a creature's hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level.
This has how things have always worked. PFS then has specific rules about average * level.
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That Tribal Scars feat looks like exactly like the kind of thing I need...however...I must know....how in the heck can an eidolon take that feat when it requires you to be a member of one of the tribes of the north? Does PFS wave the RP prerequisites for feats as well as prestige classes, or where you suggesting it assuming that the whole "My eidolon was a member of X northern tribe who died and now is a spirit-thing bound to my summoner?" kind of excuse would be valid enough to take the feat? If the latter, how would you reconcile the fact it is now considered an outsider and thus no longer a member of X northern tribe? Just curious is all..
Either its your dead ancestor in the tribe, or it IS your tribes totem. IE, a bear shaped eidolon for the bear belt tribe.
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I don't see how an eidolon could take the tribal scars feat. The Summoner could, and use lifelink to share his HP with the eidolon when it gets hit bad enough to banish it. I could see this working pretty well: Human summoner with a good con, Toughness and tribal scars could have as many as 20 HP at first level. He's a walking sack of hit points for the Eidolon to draw on when necessary.
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Isn't being able to use Summon Monster ___ as a standard action wth critters tailored to the situation at hand better than using an eidolon anyway?
An unending line of meat is a better tank than one eidolon. And it can be an unending line of meat that is perfectly suited for the battlefield. Let's see that Large Earth Elemental fight its way through (say) 1d3+1 Lemures every turn...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Yes, Summoners are very viable. The only way I've played them is with the Eidolon getting average hit points.
I frequently end up switching between using the eidolon and the summon monsters depending on situation. My eidolon isn't optimized for battle and being able to bring the summons in where they are needed also is a big part of it. Summons work great for providing flanking or wall of meat.
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They're absolutely viable, as far as I know they've always had NPC HP's so there was no nerf, which can certainly be a little tough at first level but no more so than anyone elses Animal Companion and we see them doing fine all the time. After first level you're a flat 5 HP behind a Fighter, that's it, with the added plus that should the fighter be killed he's out of the session, should the Eidolon die you still *have* a character who can summon a vast array of more meat shields...
If you truly think that this makes Summoners a weak class I'm not sure what to say, they're one of the strongest, most viable classes in PFS and incredibly powerful when played well.
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1. There is no nerf.
2. Seriously, you're asking if summoners are viable? The class largely regarded as broken by a very large vocal segment of the forum population? Gimme a break. This doesn't even get into the fact that, unlike animal companions (and people), eidolons don't die if they are killed.
I have not yet played one, but I have seen a few in use. Most combat focused eidolon builds are only a few HP behind the typical fighter.
Most of them that I have seen are more built for doing damage rather than being the tank for the party. So their AC, saves, and HP are a bit behind the fighter. But not anywhere near the point where I would call it "not front line material" or "not viable" or "not worth it for PFS."
Besides the eidolon should be getting fairly common buffs. At least moreso than the fighter.
Yes at first level they usually die after a couple of fights (or 1 bad one). But the summoner is not done playing and can then proceed to summon monsters and/or buff someone else in the party.
Summoner seems to do better at first level then most other casters even with the slightly low HP eidolon.
I have seen tank eidolon builds. You can get their HP, saves, and AC pretty respectably elevated. Plus always remember. If it dies, the player still has their actual PC left to run. (And at later levels ways of getting back the eidolon.)
Nothing feels 'viable' at level 1.
As a consummate evolutionist summoner I can say for certain that summoner is quite viable.
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At lower levels, spamming Summon Monster may well be the better option. At higher levels, the Eidolon can become a pouncing, natural-attack spamming, BEAST with the summoner dropping buffs on it every round.
Better than 1d3+1/1d4+2 summoned, augmented critters? They can get the same buffs that you'd place on an eidolon.
I'll take 3-6 Bralani Azatas over one Eidolon at level 13.
At lower levels, spamming Summon Monster may well be the better option. At higher levels, the Eidolon can become a pouncing, natural-attack spamming, BEAST with the summoner dropping buffs on it every round.Better than 1d3+1/1d4+2 summoned, augmented critters? They can get the same buffs that you'd place on an eidolon.
I'll take 3-6 Bralani Azatas over one Eidolon at level 13.
That's nice when you get to level 13, but at level 2 it doesn't matter much when you can summon a celestial dog for a whopping two minutes. That's one fight. And an Eidolon is way more powerful than a celestial dog.
PFS ends at 12, and most home-games take a long flippin' time to get to level 13.
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At lower levels, spamming Summon Monster may well be the better option. At higher levels, the Eidolon can become a pouncing, natural-attack spamming, BEAST with the summoner dropping buffs on it every round.Better than 1d3+1/1d4+2 summoned, augmented critters? They can get the same buffs that you'd place on an eidolon.
I'll take 3-6 Bralani Azatas over one Eidolon at level 13.
That's nice when you get to level 13, but at level 2 it doesn't matter much when you can summon a celestial dog for a whopping two minutes. That's one fight. And an Eidolon is way more powerful than a celestial dog.
PFS ends at 12, and most home-games take a long flippin' time to get to level 13.
At level 1-2, you can pony-cycle or eagle-cycle (or dolphins in water!). Choose between 18HP and two weak attacks (pony) or 8 HP and three pretty good attacks (eagle)...and you can double-up if you want to trade staying power for absurd action economy.
Turn 1:
Standard: Summon (Eagle)
Move: Whatever
Eagle full attacks.
Turn 2:
Eagle full attacks.
Standard: Summon (Eagle)
Move: Whatever
New Eagle full attacks.
Etc.
At level three, it's 1d3 eagles (or 1d3+1 if you get Superior Summoning already). Roll ALL the dice!
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if this was a serious nerf to a summoner's PFS viability Im sure Paizo would have addressed it by now.
*Dies laughing*
Eidolons are not "crippled" in HD any more than animal companions are. They go by the same rules that any other non-PC critter would go by. ...
I don't know where the misinformation came from, but I'm told that for a long time, many people (home and PFS), thought that eidolons got max hp on their first die. When the rules were finally clarified to them, they nearly all treated it as nerf-bat-on-the-OP-summoner.
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@Jayson: Summoners, other than Master Summoners, can only have one active SLA summons at a time, and only if they don't have their eidolon out.
She's referring to the summon monster spam trick. Its very powerful but very resource taxing. Its also a very legit strategy and its saved a party I was with from a TPK.
Round 1: Cast Summon Monster A - have it full attack/smite/cast whatever.
Round 2: Have Summon Monster A Attack.
Cast Summon Monster B - have it full attack/smite/cast whatever, Summon Monster A goes away.
Round 3: Repeat Round 2.
Any summoner can do it, but some(like mine) may choose to focus on summoning over its Eidilon. I go entire scenarios without busting him out, and I statted him as a rogue/scout.
@Jayson: Summoners, other than Master Summoners, can only have one active SLA summons at a time, and only if they don't have their eidolon out.
Right. The first eagle would disappear when the second one is summoned. But they can still both attack during turn 1. Doing that burns through your summons quick. But in a game with 15min work days it does the trick.
... However, with the terrible, crippling HP nerf PFS gives to ediolons...
Pray to Gozreh, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!
(Also, since this was so PFS specific should it be in those forums as opposed to just here with a PFS tag?)
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Use toughness at first and train it out when you hit 2.
And its not like you lose much when it dies. You just replace it with a standard action summons and it pops back into existance tommorow.
And it doesn't disappear when it hits 0 hit points - it has to go full negative before it dies - and the summoner can sacrifice their hit points to keep it around (so the summoner's CON should probably not be dumped)
Eidolons are always glass cannons - and at first level give it toughness (or if you have a kindly or absentminded GM - tribal scars ;)
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To the OP, my eidolon has gone from full HP to negative Con in a single surprise round. At level one, the summoner did not have enough hp to even keep it awake. Had that not been the eidolon, someone--even the fighter and maybe even a barbarian--would have started a new character. HP was barely a factor. It is a viable option.
It has not died since then at level 9 with slow at third and ninth. Though he only comes out 1/3 of scenarios it is still a viable option.
Can an outsider be a member of the Mammoth Lord Tribe? With a chronicle I see it, but I would have said no to any other way. I'd allow the RP stuff BNW suggested in a home game, but that seems a stretch that even GM variance can't cover. If there is a PFS ruling I would appreciate a link--thanks :)
