Come and Get Me with Mythic Combat Reflexes: How are DMs dealing with this?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Since Paizo has decided to put in the game Mythic Combat Reflexes along with Come and Get Me with all the other options for extending a barbarian's reach with size boosts and reach boosts, how are DMs dealing with this utterly insane combination?

The only thing I can think of is ranged and invisible attackers (which the cleric will purge).

Since they decided to put in Greater Elemental Blood, even flying is a useless ability against a Greater Beast Totem barbarian. Invisibility and Concealment aren't much of a defense if the Barbarian spends two feats and gets Mythic Blind-fight as well.

So how do DMs stop this beast at high level? Is there a way or did Paizo just put in a martial character that is literally unstoppable against 95% of what he fights? (The 5% I'm thinking will be well-prepared casters with help using no save spells like euphoric tranquility that will slow the barb down until it gets cleaned off him by the cleric or mage).

I think this is the worst thing I've ever seen Paizo put in the game.

Lantern Lodge

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It has been my experience from 3.0 and onward that any time you have a high level (12+) party of optimized PCs, default printed monsters and cookie cutter NPCs really aren't going to put up much of a fight unless you have excellent dice luck and the players have awful dice luck.

Optimized PCs often require direct counter-tactics at that level. I personally try keep these situations to a minimum by saving them for key adversaries or tense plot moments. This is for two reasons:

1). Counter-tactics on the frequent is cheesy and highly improbable in terms of the denizens of a standard fantasy setting.
2). After learning what my player's intend to make but before starting play, I prefer to simply ask the player of a PC who will have capabilities I don't want to have to work around constantly to tone back the build a bit.

As far as advise if you would like to present a difficult encounter for the PC, we would have to know more about the build (saves, ect.), but in general I might suggest a sunder or disarm specialist, monk he just won't hit easily, archer sniper, alchemist, or gunslinger for a nasty encounter.


True. Most level 12 parties are tough.

But the Come and Get Me Barbarian is far beyond all the other martials. Most of them can be handled with pretty standard tactics. Come and Get Me Barbarian with Mythic Combat Reflexes and reach enhancement is nigh impossible.

Optimize the barbarian using every currently released hardcover book up the ACG. Beast Totem Line, Come and Get Me, Elemental Blood Line (Air), Reckless Abandon, Superstitious with human bonus. Raging Brutality. A heavy con focus for maximum hit points.

Mythic Combat Reflexes. Mythic Power Attack. Mythic Improved Critical. Greatsword. Optimized magic items.

Some of the ways I'll counter:

1. Ranged attackers.

2. Stealthy casters hitting him before Superstitious active, sometimes with exhaustion effects.

3. Invisible attackers.

Going to be rough.

Keep on with the interesting ideas. I'm trying to stack them up, so I can at least vary the cheese.


How does come and get me barbarian respond to being mazed?
Losing initiative and not being able to Come and get me?
Ranger?
Invisible?
Exahaustion?
Huge dex damage?
Being attacked from outside reach by huge monsters?

It's not a caster, he's not using a lance. You're fine. Archers are more problematic because you either have to decide to turn them off (Fickle winds) or let them end the encounter.

Lantern Lodge

Undone wrote:

How does come and get me barbarian respond to being mazed?

Losing initiative and not being able to Come and get me?
Ranger?
Invisible?
Exahaustion?
Huge dex damage?
Being attacked from outside reach by huge monsters?

It's not a caster, he's not using a lance. You're fine. Archers are more problematic because you either have to decide to turn them off (Fickle winds) or let them end the encounter.

Of note, losing initiative is not an issue with combat reflexes, as you may perform aoo's while flat-footed with the feat.

Lantern Lodge

Piccolo, if you can provide me ballpark figures of the PCs AC, hp, DR, attack bonus, level, and how close or far off of average WBL the PC is, I can provide you with greater ideas.


Lormyr wrote:
Undone wrote:

How does come and get me barbarian respond to being mazed?

Losing initiative and not being able to Come and get me?
Ranger?
Invisible?
Exahaustion?
Huge dex damage?
Being attacked from outside reach by huge monsters?

It's not a caster, he's not using a lance. You're fine. Archers are more problematic because you either have to decide to turn them off (Fickle winds) or let them end the encounter.

Of note, losing initiative is not an issue with combat reflexes, as you may perform aoo's while flat-footed with the feat.

Losing initiative means no come and get me meaning no provoking actions.

Lantern Lodge

Undone wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Undone wrote:

How does come and get me barbarian respond to being mazed?

Losing initiative and not being able to Come and get me?
Ranger?
Invisible?
Exahaustion?
Huge dex damage?
Being attacked from outside reach by huge monsters?

It's not a caster, he's not using a lance. You're fine. Archers are more problematic because you either have to decide to turn them off (Fickle winds) or let them end the encounter.

Of note, losing initiative is not an issue with combat reflexes, as you may perform aoo's while flat-footed with the feat.
Losing initiative means no come and get me meaning no provoking actions.

Ah yes, I was fixated on the attack itself and overlooked that little fact. AoO for moving in past reach perhaps, but not for the attack itself in that case.


Mythic rules make things crazy, yep. That's one mythic barbarian.

Might have to use mythic stuff to counter it then, no?

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
I think this is the worst thing I've ever seen Paizo put in the game.

That's a fairly harsh comment. Mythic rules are hardly the standard; I've looked at them as basically changing the game from go-karts to race cars. Use at your own risk.

Sovereign Court

Mythic Ogre laughs at your mighty dragons or barbarians, with one mythic power, that cr 4 giant can ignore any damage that would KO or Kill him.


Undone wrote:

How does come and get me barbarian respond to being mazed?

Losing initiative and not being able to Come and get me?
Ranger?
Invisible?
Exahaustion?
Huge dex damage?
Being attacked from outside reach by huge monsters?

It's not a caster, he's not using a lance. You're fine. Archers are more problematic because you either have to decide to turn them off (Fickle winds) or let them end the encounter.

Archers are a bit easier. Most dungeons are tight quarters preventing the long range striking.

1. You can usually take their bows with disarm fairly easy.

2. You can sunder their arrows.

3. Fickle winds and wind wall.

4. Mob them.

5. invisibility works well since blind-fight isn't great at range.

6. Dex damage hits them harder than any other class.

7. Most archers besides Zen and Paladin don't have a great will save and not much means for building it up like Superstitious.

8. The paladin archer lacks mobility a great deal of the time.

9. Wall spells to seal them off, why you kill the melee.

10. That same spells you wanted to use to get rid of the barbarian work on the archer.

Far lower hit points than the barbarian and no DR 10. Archers are much easier to deal with than Come and Get Me Barbarians. Maybe you don't have much experience with optimized Come and Get me Barbarians at higher level. I don't know. My experience is there is no martial class worse at the moment than an optimized barbarian. The real terror doesn't happen until past level 12. The last Come and Get Me Barbarian I ran had 388 hit points (488 when raging) and wasn't even a Greater Beast Totem barbarian, he was a nightmare to deal with.


Kaisoku wrote:

Mythic rules make things crazy, yep. That's one mythic barbarian.

Might have to use mythic stuff to counter it then, no?

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
I think this is the worst thing I've ever seen Paizo put in the game.
That's a fairly harsh comment. Mythic rules are hardly the standard; I've looked at them as basically changing the game from go-karts to race cars. Use at your own risk.

The reason it is the worst is because it is so far superior to every other martial option when combined. Come and Get Me with Mythic Combat Reflexes makes every other martial class appear weak.


Lormyr wrote:
Piccolo, if you can provide me ballpark figures of the PCs AC, hp, DR, attack bonus, level, and how close or far off of average WBL the PC is, I can provide you with greater ideas.

It will probably be standard to above standard wealth by level. I'm running Wrath of the Righteous. I understand that it is above standard WBL.

His AC. 36 +11 armor. +5 dex +5 def +11 natural armor -6 Reckless Abandon

Barb isn't a big armor class guy. His DR will be 10/-.

Mithril Breastplate +5 with heavy fortification. +5 ring of protection. +5 am. natural armor. +6 natural armor from Beast Totem (usually used to cancel AC penalty from Reckless Abandon). +6 enh dex belt. Figure his dex will be around 20 to 22.

Hit points: 610 (probably have 300 or so by level 12)

Con: 46 (+18 hps per level)
Rolling Method: that will probably net him 8 hps per level.
Mythic Toughness
Guardian Path

Starting Con is 20. He'll sink all five points into it. He'll sink +5 inherent. He'll sink all 10 mythic points. There is also a +2 in the module they'll probably get. +6 enhancement.

Damage output during his round pouncing: 2d6 +16 +5 +27 +27=82 a hit
Come and Get Me Attacks: 2d6+16+5+27=48

Str base: 26 to 28 with inherent bonuses. When raging 32 to 36 (at 20...lower earlier)

Raging Brutality with 46 Con: +27 damage during his turn.
Str: +16
+5 weapon
Mythic Power Attack: +18 to 27.

Attack Roll: +36

+11 str +20 BAB (at max level) +6 Reckless Abandon -6 Power Attack +5 weapon= +36

Does not include party buffs. Can eliminate Power Attack negative with mythic power.

Saves: Fort: +35 Ref: +16 Will: +14 (+2 to 4 while raging)

Add +12 Superstition for most attacks. That's why stealthy casters will screw him up. If he isn't raging, he loses quite a bit on his saves.

I think I'll have an easier time challenging him than I did in Kingmaker. Demons are far more powerful and versatile than fey creatures. It's going to be rough. No one can match him in physical battle. Sheer number of attacks will often hit even the highest ACs.

He has Greater Elemental Blood and Greater Beast Totem. That means he can fly at 80 feet a round (140 charging) and get full attacks nearly every round pouncing.

Lantern Lodge

Thanks for the relevant info. Are the PCs already level 20/mythic 10? That is no big deal at that level, as a mythic void wizard would punch a hole right through those saves even if he was already raging.

My next question is would you like some general advice for combating him with what is in the AP? Or would a few custom inserted ideas be ok with you to shake things up for him?

I have no played the AP yet, so cannot offer much insight in that regard.


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He's playing an AP and expects to have a perfect set of custom gear?

Ha, that's cute.

Edit: Unless you're giving them lots and lots of time for custom crafting, they're going to find that they're not quite as ideally equipped as they think.


Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Kaisoku wrote:

Mythic rules make things crazy, yep. That's one mythic barbarian.

Might have to use mythic stuff to counter it then, no?

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
I think this is the worst thing I've ever seen Paizo put in the game.
That's a fairly harsh comment. Mythic rules are hardly the standard; I've looked at them as basically changing the game from go-karts to race cars. Use at your own risk.
The reason it is the worst is because it is so far superior to every other martial option when combined. Come and Get Me with Mythic Combat Reflexes makes every other martial class appear weak.

Mythic gunslinger with Limitless Range, better initiative, and umpteen hits per round says "hi".

In all seriousness, there are builds that are more than playable in the same party as such a character, and the Come and Get Me barbarian is subject to a lot of flaws.


Lormyr wrote:

Thanks for the relevant info. Are the PCs already level 20/mythic 10? That is no big deal at that level, as a mythic void wizard would punch a hole right through those saves even if he was already raging.

My next question is would you like some general advice for combating him with what is in the AP? Or would a few custom inserted ideas be ok with you to shake things up for him?

I have no played the AP yet, so cannot offer much insight in that regard.

That's the intended path. He's only level 3 right now. Game is fairly easy to run. Just reduce things by about one for every four levels.


Zhangar wrote:

He's playing an AP and expects to have a perfect set of custom gear?

Ha, that's cute.

Edit: Unless you're giving them lots and lots of time for custom crafting, they're going to find that they're not quite as ideally equipped as they think.

They do have craft time. I generally modify items in the module to be useful to the PCs as far as weapons and armor go. They build on what they have.


blahpers wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Kaisoku wrote:

Mythic rules make things crazy, yep. That's one mythic barbarian.

Might have to use mythic stuff to counter it then, no?

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
I think this is the worst thing I've ever seen Paizo put in the game.
That's a fairly harsh comment. Mythic rules are hardly the standard; I've looked at them as basically changing the game from go-karts to race cars. Use at your own risk.
The reason it is the worst is because it is so far superior to every other martial option when combined. Come and Get Me with Mythic Combat Reflexes makes every other martial class appear weak.

Mythic gunslinger with Limitless Range, better initiative, and umpteen hits per round says "hi".

In all seriousness, there are builds that are more than playable in the same party as such a character, and the Come and Get Me barbarian is subject to a lot of flaws.

Does that Gunslinger have close to 600 hit points and saves in 28 to 30 range across the board?

The problem isn't purely damage. It's the overall package backed up by a party. If I hit a Gunslinger with a beefed dominate person or dominate monster, does he shrug it off? When the AoE blasphemy happens, does he shrug and keep on raging? When the big bad creature you're fighting gets a hold of you and hammers you ten times with Power Attack, do you have the hit points and DR to laugh while you counter-attack every single attack?

The barbarian build I am talking about has fewer weaknesses than any other build I've seen in the game from any character except a paladin against evil. Every other martial physical damage dealer in the game has a glaring weakness whether lower hit points, no DR, does less damage, low will or fort, something that allows you to get them. Even the paladin has somewhat limited mobility. That used to work against the barbarian until they gave him Greater Elemental Blood. I guess they figured they hadn't given him everything, so he needed a supernatural,undispellable fly ability to use in conjunction with Greater Beast Totem.

I know how to handle just about everything. I can inspire fear in any character. I can even cheese encounters to hammer the barbarian every time. I don't like to do endless enervate and polar ray barrages and the like. And he usually gets a ring of evasion to avoid all those pesky half-damage attacks.

If you ever to get to play in a campaign that you know is going to high level with fairly generous stats (at least 20 point buy), play an optimized barbarian. You won't be disappointed, especially if you get to play Mythic.


Hammering the barbarian with casters won't be a problem. Mythic casters are just as nasty as ever.

That being said I don't like to overwhelm the party with enemy casters. It's not fun for players to be disabled combat after combat by casters using spells with no saves or seriously high saving throw DCs they have next to no chance to make.


Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Kaisoku wrote:

Mythic rules make things crazy, yep. That's one mythic barbarian.

Might have to use mythic stuff to counter it then, no?

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
I think this is the worst thing I've ever seen Paizo put in the game.
That's a fairly harsh comment. Mythic rules are hardly the standard; I've looked at them as basically changing the game from go-karts to race cars. Use at your own risk.
The reason it is the worst is because it is so far superior to every other martial option when combined. Come and Get Me with Mythic Combat Reflexes makes every other martial class appear weak.

Mythic gunslinger with Limitless Range, better initiative, and umpteen hits per round says "hi".

In all seriousness, there are builds that are more than playable in the same party as such a character, and the Come and Get Me barbarian is subject to a lot of flaws.

Does that Gunslinger have close to 600 hit points and saves in 28 to 30 range across the board?

The problem isn't purely damage. It's the overall package backed up by a party. If I hit a Gunslinger with a beefed dominate person or dominate monster, does he shrug it off? When the AoE blasphemy happens, does he shrug and keep on raging? When the big bad creature you're fighting gets a hold of you and hammers you ten times with Power Attack, do you have the hit points and DR to laugh while you counter-attack every single attack?

The barbarian build I am talking about has fewer weaknesses than any other build I've seen in the game from any character except a paladin against evil. Every other martial physical damage dealer in the game has a glaring weakness whether lower hit points, no DR, does less damage, low will or fort, something that allows you to get them. Even the paladin has somewhat limited mobility. That used to work against the barbarian until they gave him Greater Elemental Blood. I guess they figured they hadn't given...

Moving the goalposts. The gunslinger has its own weaknesses. My point wasn't to posit a build that is strictly better than Come and Get Me. It was to posit a build that is stronger at Come and Get Me in some ways and not in others, enough to make it a viable build in a party with a Come and Get Me barbarian. If I played the gunslinger and you played the barbarian in the same party, I'd still feel combat capable when playing to the mythic gunslinger's strengths--murdering things from a crazy long distance. I'd feel more outclassed by a mythic wizard, who laughs at an army of barbarians and gunslingers alike.

Lantern Lodge

I see now that I misunderstood the situation. I was under the impression for the posts your group was already in the 12+ range. My fault there.

With your party being only level 3, the absolute easiest path to making the build you feel will be an issue less of one is to simply talk to the player and ask them to tone it down to a level you are more comfortable with.

Beyond that, I might suggest tweaking some of the encounters / adversaries to custom fit your group. Most combat focused builds are quite devastating at high levels when an optimize savvy player is behind the sheet. You might be surprised what the other players come up with, depending on their levels of system mastery.


You can't say that dominate will take care of a gunslinger and not allow casters to deal with your barbarian. In fact your Barbarian falling under Domination is a perfectly acceptable tactic.


Hark wrote:
You can't say that dominate will take care of a gunslinger and not allow casters to deal with your barbarian. In fact your Barbarian falling under Domination is a perfectly acceptable tactic.

The barbarian could be dominated while not raging, very difficult while raging.


Lormyr wrote:

I see now that I misunderstood the situation. I was under the impression for the posts your group was already in the 12+ range. My fault there.

With your party being only level 3, the absolute easiest path to making the build you feel will be an issue less of one is to simply talk to the player and ask them to tone it down to a level you are more comfortable with.

Beyond that, I might suggest tweaking some of the encounters / adversaries to custom fit your group. Most combat focused builds are quite devastating at high levels when an optimize savvy player is behind the sheet. You might be surprised what the other players come up with, depending on their levels of system mastery.

I've handled every class except this one. This one has been very hard without being a total jerk. I've never much understood the complaints about wizards or casters in general because you get a hold of them for a round, they are nearly dead. So their entire game is to hit first and end it or they might just die if they get located and hammered. Wizards and casters have learned to tread carefully in my campaigns because exposing themselves early and at the wrong time can go just as wrong for them because their saves aren't great and their hit points low. I can see how inexperienced DMs have trouble with casters.

This Come and Get Me barbarian is a nightmare to deal with on so many levels. I don't like to tell the player to tone it down. They are playing the game as designed. They shouldn't have to choose suboptimal options anymore than a caster or fighter should. What I would prefer to see is Paizo stop allowing these kinds of nutty options in the game. I don't get why they give something as insane as this to one martial class, but do stuff like take Crane Style from the monk or keep the fighter with one good save. Makes no sense from a game design perspective.


The intention of the post was to discuss with people that had already dealt with a barbarian built using the mythic rules either as players or as a DM. The book may be too new and I'm not sure how many people play barbarians coupled with the fact not many people play Pathfinder to high level.

No one has seen this combination in action during an actual game? I've seen a non-mythic Come and Get Me Barbarian. They are very brutal. You at least had the limiting factor of limited AoOs. Now you have unlimited AoOs. He could theoretically attack twenty time plus a round on top of his own attacks. I'm wondering if anyone has dealt with this?

No one yet?

Sovereign Court

Kind of funny because on my table, nobody plays a barbarian because I have killed every single barbarians when I was dming and they believe that I hate barbarian. Not really...I just cast spells that either disable them or they fight brute monsters that are more brute than they are.

Depend on the way people plays caster in your campaign. All my casters are running around with freedom of movement, illusions and various buffs. Freedom of movement preventing them from ever being grappled which nullify a large percentage of brute monsters tactic, flying to be out of reach and of course, last but not least, contingency and permanency of spells (usually they pay spellcasting services from higher spellcasters to get the good spells permanency).

The Exchange

Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Piccolo, if you can provide me ballpark figures of the PCs AC, hp, DR, attack bonus, level, and how close or far off of average WBL the PC is, I can provide you with greater ideas.

Saves: Fort: +35 Ref: +16 Will: +14 (+2 to 4 while raging)

Add +12 Superstition for most attacks. That's why stealthy casters will screw him up. If he isn't raging, he loses quite a bit on his saves.

I think I'll have an easier time challenging him than I did in Kingmaker. Demons are far more powerful and versatile than fey creatures. It's going to be rough. No one can match him in physical...

Superstition (Ex)

Benefit: The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

The buff to saves from the superstitious rage power is always active. The only difference when he/she rages is that he can not be the willing target of any magic and must save against harmless effects (Healing spells, Haste etc.)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having played Mythic, I have only one piece of advice for GM's.

If your players are system optimizers and crunch junkies, Do not under any circumstances, allow them mythic. You probably need it for your own uses, if you plan on giving them any challenges at high level.

You've been warned.


Cunning Fox wrote:
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Piccolo, if you can provide me ballpark figures of the PCs AC, hp, DR, attack bonus, level, and how close or far off of average WBL the PC is, I can provide you with greater ideas.

Saves: Fort: +35 Ref: +16 Will: +14 (+2 to 4 while raging)

Add +12 Superstition for most attacks. That's why stealthy casters will screw him up. If he isn't raging, he loses quite a bit on his saves.

I think I'll have an easier time challenging him than I did in Kingmaker. Demons are far more powerful and versatile than fey creatures. It's going to be rough. No one can match him in physical...

Superstition (Ex)

Benefit: The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

The buff to saves from the superstitious rage power is always active. The only difference when he/she rages is that he can not be the willing target of any magic and must save against harmless effects (Healing spells, Haste etc.)

No, it isn't. Rage Powers ONLY work while Raging. It's in their description.

As for the topic, you seem to be unfamiliar with Mythic. Throw a Mythic Blasphemy at him. Undetectable Greater Invis (he won't even realize he's being hit). A single Mythic Vital Strike will eat his 600 HP for breakfast and come back for seconds. The AoO it provokes can't say the same.

Mythic is ultra rocket tag. Come and Get Me is less relevant than it is in the base game.


LazarX wrote:

Having played Mythic, I have only one piece of advice for GM's.

If your players are system optimizers and crunch junkies, Do not under any circumstances, allow them mythic. You probably need it for your own uses, if you plan on giving them any challenges at high level.

You've been warned.

As one of my groups is closing in on the end of wrath of the righteous...yea this is pretty true. If your group likes to exploit powerful combos, its going to get rediculous. Our sorceror basically has 'spend a few mythic points to end encounter' most of the time. Its sort of insane.

As an aside, I have seen a lot of success of dms granting specific mythic abilities to characters as story rewards, choosing them carefully, and making them relavent to the character. It still represents cool and often powerful abilities. But without the capacity to specifically choose everything, its far more contained even with optimized characters.


Waves of fatigue are a great way to deal with barbarians. Just sayin'


Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
Waves of fatigue are a great way to deal with barbarians. Just sayin'

Only if you Fatigue them before they Rage, and don't have any way to ignore Fatigue already.

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