Ok guys so were starting a campaign and the dm wants to try something new. Everyone in our group have all read the forgotten realms books, and our dm wanted to base the campaign off of them. He took a bunch of characters out of the books and wrote them on paper and put them in a hat. We each drew one and i got thibbledwarf pwent. Im pretty lost on how to actually make a dwarven battlerager optimized. any help would be great as i am completely lost. were starting at 3rd level, 25 point buy and pathfinder only no 3rd party. i was thinking maybe the brawler or maybea fighter subtype but im i havent even decided on that yet. i was thinking of mixing in dwarven defender and maybe some lion totem barbarian.
ive played a lot of 3.5 this is my second campaign with PF material.
Im really still jealous i didnt get elminster, I love wizards.
This should be in the Conversions forum. (Anyone who hasn't read those books has no idea who this person is or how to build him.)
A wrestler (tetori monk?) with spiked full plate?
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Barbarian with Brutal Pugilist and Drunken Brute archetypes.
Mutagenic brawler and barbarian multiclasd IMO
What would his spiked armor that he uses as weapons be considered? IIRC he pretty much stuck to only using his armor to "hug" foes and to punch/kick with the spikes doing the damage.
Stalwart defender is terrible for Pwent. He is mobile and her is armored, and he makes use of spiked armor and cestus. I would make him as mutagenic mauler brawler. He is deadly with close weapons, his fighting style is unpredictable, and his rage is better described by mutagen than rage as he drinks a foule ale to bring it on instead of falling into rage on his own.
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Brawler class for the "no int req" maneuver feats, along with mutagenic mauler for "gutbuster drink". Use spiked armor, and grappling, and get him the belt that gives constrict for the embrace feats later.
Pwent from the books was 10th to 12th level, so dont expect to really get the feel right at the start. But, you can do a lot of what you want.
I have read the books, but i'm ona tablet at the moment, i'll tyr and line out something solid tomorrow.
Looking at it, I really like the brawler path, the only thing i give up is the ac bonus but with spiked full plate that wont be to bad. Dunno if i want to use cestus with my unarmed damage bonus though. and martial flexibility frees up a lot of maneuver feats so i dont have to take all of them.
If there ever was a brawler, it was Thibbledwarf Pwent. The class was basically written for him.
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Except Pwent wore, and was notorious for, heavy armor.
Uh. When in said books did you want Pwent from? Cause there are two VASTLY different builds depending on when in his character life span you choose from....
But off hand: Brawler, with armour spikes (as I think? they count in the close weapon group and then you can do the damage from it), or the Paladin with no magic (that shiny one that gives up spells comes to mind). No he's not really "paladiny" in the highly religious way. but class doesn't inform character; character informs class. So you could play his fielty to the dwarven god, and "ME KING!" and play it lawful good that way.. This would maybe push lawful good's a-typical viewing though since he'll do what needs to be done for his king.. Fluff the glow as his battle fury (he often does inspire his bregade and his comrades very similiarly as the archetype does and all)
Alternatively, STrangler brawler isn't a terribly mismatched idea. Pwent's 'Bodily thrashing' is pretty close to grappling since in the various books he shows up it often mentions that his armour seems to grab the enemy shredding them and the enemies can't seem to dislodge him. So you could go down the grapple line with armour spikes.
If you wanted the other version of him. Loosing the scaling unarmed damage really sucks though.
HUMAGZOID SPOILER
In either case the weapons : normal punch (wearing heavy armour of course) not a cestus, no sense in damage loss. and the armour spikes (I can't check but I sure hope they count as close weapon thing) then basically charge leaping at them, then brawlers fury on~ or the certain trick I mentioned in spoiler combined with this. as near as I can tell you only loose the Dodge AC stuff when you wear heavy armour actually (if I misread something do point it out) so you can still brawlers fury in it..
ah I so love Pwent.
thegreenteagamer wrote: Except Pwent wore, and was notorious for, heavy armor. From what I can recall he wore and was notorious for wearing spiked (well, ridged) armor but they didn't actually describe the weight of it, just that it smelled foul. That said, it's been a lot of years since I stopped reading Salvatore and I could absolutely be mistaken. Did a quick search and I couldn't find any references to heavy armor in the wiki?
Sweeper88: The effectiveness of the spiked armor would certainly increase with Brawler, otherwise spikes are kind of underwhelming.
Zwordsman wrote: ...or the Paladin with no magic (that shiny one that gives up spells comes to mind). No he's not really "paladiny" in the highly religious way. but class doesn't inform character; character informs class. I don't know. 1. Pwent was pretty much the opposite of charismatic. 2. He wasn't divinely inspired more or less at all. Yeah, he was devoted to his king, but that's more cavalier than paladin. 3. He didn't cast spells, channel energy, lay hands, or remove ailments in any way shape or form. Nor was he ever mounted, and he didn't divinely power up his weapons with magic.
You could make an argument for a cavalier archetype that gives up a mount multiclass with mutagenic brawler. That would probably do nicely. Heavy armor and smiting from the cavalier, close-weapon fighting and mutagen from cavalier. Maybe a level or two of the armored tank barbarian for genuine rage.
Should i takea 1 level dip for heavy armor???Or should i just take light armor and go with the ac bonus? And im goin for the im gonna grab you and thrash till you stop moving build is what im looking for. I really like the brawler class but i have to do more reading on the paladin.
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Huh. I just realized the Brawler works perfectly well in heavy armor, the only thing you lose is the AC bonus. So yeah, spiked armor Brawler with a one-level dip in Drunken Brute barbarian for battlerage. Spend a feat on heavy armor proficiency and you're in business.
I agree whole heartedly with Brawler (Mutagenic Mauler) Archetype.
For the dip I'd use:
Fighter (Unbreakable): Die Hard just seems in character.
Barbarian (Armored Hulk): Fits, and a few round of rage will come in handy
Cavalier (Gendermae): For dipping the class is like fighter plus. Power Attack as a bonus feat (which you likely wanted), extra skill points and challenge. Maybe reskin an order to follow whatever his rage brothers code is(been a long time since I read those books), and just don't use the mount.
For power, the cavalier is probably your best bet, thematically I'd do the armored hulk dip.
thegreenteagamer wrote: Zwordsman wrote: ...or the Paladin with no magic (that shiny one that gives up spells comes to mind). No he's not really "paladiny" in the highly religious way. but class doesn't inform character; character informs class. I don't know. 1. Pwent was pretty much the opposite of charismatic. 2. He wasn't divinely inspired more or less at all. Yeah, he was devoted to his king, but that's more cavalier than paladin. 3. He didn't cast spells, channel energy, lay hands, or remove ailments in any way shape or form. Nor was he ever mounted, and he didn't divinely power up his weapons with magic.
You could make an argument for a cavalier archetype that gives up a mount multiclass with mutagenic brawler. That would probably do nicely. Heavy armor and smiting from the cavalier, close-weapon fighting and mutagen from cavalier. Maybe a level or two of the armored tank barbarian for genuine rage. Actually he was highly charismatic. He often made massive hoards run away from him, everyone who spent more than a few mins with him began to love him. Hell Artimis Enteri even enjoyed his company! That is an achievement. The rest is flavor. No matter what you do in Pathfinder you won't be able to do all that Pwent does straight up, so you’re going to have to re-flavor things. He often somehow with inspiring words brings his whole brigade of gutbusters back from nearly point of death to run down more hoards (the shining night archetype) he has quite literally been impaled through his chest and somehow kept going (swift lay on hands on himself replicates his ability to rarely ever succumb to real damage while in a fight) Just don't use it on anyone else. Like I said before that archetype gives up spell casting entirely. Smith Evil in the divine sense doesn't fit, but he'd often focus down one guy and do insane amounts of damage and get barely a scratch from him. Hell he head charged a monster that cleaved a gutbuster in half completely, and somehow blocked the claw with just his arm and basically used his head spike to split it in half.
He didn't divine power up anything.
The flavor of paladin doesn't fit, which is why I said it has to be reflavored but. The mechanics of what he does fits very well. It would require the GM to not require you to be super religious though.
Pwent is known for stuff like that, I don't know of any other combination that gives very similar to his actual abilities (except for mutagenic mauler brawler which comes fairly close). It's just the need for reflavoring some of the abilities (but don't bother changing the mechanics after all its runs the game)
If your GM is ok with fluffing the fluff towards Pwent's kinda of life style, then Either warrior of holy light paladin (Though some class features you wouldn't use) or straight brawler are your best bets. I don't know about that cavalier archetype he mentioned but it’s worth looking at.
Pwent didn't really have a "rage effect" imo, Bruener sure as hell did, but Pwent didn't really have any real rage effects until the Guantlgym moments--and that was specifically a magic effect of the drink. He sure screamed, shouted, and fought carelessly but he wasn't raging, he (except for when his king is in danger) always had clear presence of mind of the battle field and all his allies, his abandon on fighting was a result of trusting his dwarven armor (his words paraphrased, in a scene where bruener was pissed off because he threw himself over a wall at a mini army because his king was fighting alone during the goblin siege).
So I don't think Rage really fits...Nor does mutagenic Mauler *unless you’re playing the *spoilers* version. Then both fit quite well frankly. With mutagenic mauler leading the fitting higher.
Edit: Armored Hulk fits super well. Good notice there. That would be a good dip for the heavy armor then brawler (mutagenic or not is your choice. it easily could be the gutbuster drink I suppose)
Chances are this will lend up fairly dipped around really. I should dog look at the c alvier class that drops the mount (oh does pwent hate riding anything; yet loves his pony)
Pwents skillset and attitude: Prior to the *spoiler(
full suit of armor (in the books it is described several times as being very heavy armor, with spikes and his helmet had a 2-3ft spike; basically as pike around half his size) he was very heavy as the raging barbarian Wulfgar described him as so heavy it was hard to throw. And that Barbarian has overpowered trolls gnolls and a half giant before.
He whops and hollers and screams a lot (intimidates) to demoralize his opponents before he leaps into the pile of them spinning thrashing punching head butting and 3 cases of biting.
He is very strong, he is not agile due to his knees (Too many leaps, too heavy of armor over the years me king. My legs won't make the journey_)
He inspires his comrades regularly with his antics, and always guards them using his own life over the others
Except in cases of bruener or catte-brie being in mortal danger he is always in control
He loves his gutbuster special alcoholic beverage that has for the record been so strong it made a trader who stopped by mithral hall sick for 3 days. and rumblebelly drank it once and never again will he touch it.
He isn't the smartest on the stick but he isn't dumb and he's pretty decently clever when it comes to a fight
He is nearly impossible to kill. he has been stabbed, invaded by dark plane stuff, blocked an attack that cleaved a gutbuster in half earlier with a braced arm, leaped off a 40ft fall impaling a giant flying beast, then falling with it to the ground and only being stunned slightly. has been impaled I nthe chest, through his armor but still ran down and head butted something that was going to kill bruenor, has been subjected to many magical traps (his form of door opening is to rush it as hard as possible lol).
He is adept at climbing...somehow despite being in heavy armor, maybe the spikes help idk.. but he climbed pretty fast-doesn't really like flying though but it has never ended well
If you want post spoiler break down lemee know.
Haha and sorry for the long post.. This series is my favorite and I own several copies of my favorites and I re-read the series every year or two. I am so glad Salvatore got over the slump in writing he hit around the 14-16th book.
Edit from reading what occurred while i was typing this chunk.
Armored hulk+Mutagenic Mauler or normal brawler (depends if you wat mutagen or the feat tricks. id prefer the feat tricks on pwent) is likely the most effective and correct you can get. he doesn't rage really nor does he "mutate" but you can play them off as gut buster drink and just let him rage or tie it to a character in your game and rage whenever he's in danger lol. Don't pick up the beast form if you want to stay true to his character but snag spontaneous healing. It'll be good for representing his ability to somehow not die when he really should.
Feats: normal melee stuff but pick up toughness, die hard and such. Not really super mechanically awesome but it's in character.
Stats favor str and con by far. He’s not really inept at the rest but chose as you see fit.
Hey dont worry about the long post i couldnt have described him any better, if someone hasnt read the books they know exactly what im looking for now.
Haha. Cool beans.
yean I'm a Drizzt/Cadderly book geek. likely a bit too much over all.
I can describe him later as well in a spoiler if you want, but I can't see him fitting in a game easily.. Though frankly he is pretty bloody bad ass... and could be so fun to RP, but kind difficult too...
I can't remember how tall he is though.. but with the helmet spike, I remember one reference that the spike reached most humans' heads.. I know he's taller than a halfing but not the tallest dwarf ever.
Of course, you loves Wizards!
Anyway, brawler is a great class for a dwarf. It just seem right.
Please, do not loose Martial Flexibility (Ex). It absolutely makes the class, along with Brawler's Cunning (Ex). Finally, kick that feat tax out of there!
Arcanist will--probably--beat Wizard, once I fully look at it.
Thats the issue im running into, he would be a blast to role play its just getting the mechanics down to make him useful in combat, on the same levelas other characters.
Zwordsman wrote: thegreenteagamer wrote: Zwordsman wrote: ...or the Paladin with no magic (that shiny one that gives up spells comes to mind). No he's not really "paladiny" in the highly religious way. but class doesn't inform character; character informs class. I don't know. 1. Pwent was pretty much the opposite of charismatic. 2. He wasn't divinely inspired more or less at all. Yeah, he was devoted to his king, but that's more cavalier than paladin. 3. He didn't cast spells, channel energy, lay hands, or remove ailments in any way shape or form. Nor was he ever mounted, and he didn't divinely power up his weapons with magic.
You could make an argument for a cavalier archetype that gives up a mount multiclass with mutagenic brawler. That would probably do nicely. Heavy armor and smiting from the cavalier, close-weapon fighting and mutagen from cavalier. Maybe a level or two of the armored tank barbarian for genuine rage. Actually he was highly charismatic. He often made massive hoards run away from him, everyone who spent more than a few mins with him began to love him. Hell Artimis Enteri even enjoyed his company! That is an achievement. The rest is flavor. No matter what you do in Pathfinder you won't be able to do all that Pwent does straight up, so you’re going to have to re-flavor things. He often somehow with inspiring words brings his whole brigade of gutbusters back from nearly point of death to run down more hoards (the shining night archetype) he has quite literally been impaled through his chest and somehow kept going (swift lay on hands on himself replicates his ability to rarely ever succumb to real damage while in a fight) Just don't use it on anyone else. Like I said before that archetype gives up spell casting entirely. Smith Evil in the divine sense doesn't fit, but he'd often focus down one guy and do insane amounts of damage and get barely a scratch from him. Hell he head charged a monster that cleaved a gutbuster in half completely, and somehow blocked the claw... Well Said!
What level are you starting at?
Likely the Armoured Barb+Brawler will be your best bet, might look into intimdate (i don't know enough about it to give advice on it).
Gun for adamatine armour eventually. and same with the armour spikes. If your GM doens't mind you attacking in melee with your armour spikes. once you start getting enchantments on spikes use those (you could get the monk robe for more unarmed damage I guess. though it might look funny. ) I think there is actually a dwarven helmit that adds damage to charge attacks.. that would be good and in character
Just the normal combat feats (power attack, weapo nfocus, weapon spec etc. since you count as fighter and monk). You could consider Punishing kick and using it with your big helmet spike. Charging in spike 'em and knock them prone then thrash! (brawlers furry). Though you could always just pick it up as a swift action with your "any combat feat" brawler ability. Combat reflexes might be good if you have the Dex for it. That would allow you to smack people as they try to get away from your thrashing (he often does that) perhaps pick up improved trip etc via the class ability, to simulate him catching somone with a spike and pulling them back down into his thrash ball.
Depending on what your other compatriots are, considering someone throwing you. He has been thrown by Wulfgar before during one of the assaults on Mithral Hall. or if you have a mage that force charge is a nice little benefit.
Pwent never had magic items really, but he wasn't super hating it and would use it if it was passive kinda stuff. so no reason not to get all those tasty buff items
The Stats are somthing im having a hard time with, im used to rogues and wizards, its hard for me to lose the high dex, but thats why i was thinking dwarven defender to get my con bonus instead. We are starting at 3rd, but the last campaign made it to 19th level.There is a ton of manuever feats that would go good for him but im not sure for which ones to take the feat and which ones to use martial flexibility.What about unarmed fighter for a style feat and heavy armor prof? I was looking at dragon and grabbing styles. I wish cha wasnt a bad stat for dwarves or id look into some of the intimidate stuff.
As far as being thrown a character alreadymentioned buying a catapult with a chair at the end for me to sit in, so when they shoot arrowsat us they shoot me at their archers lol
haha. bear in mind I typically play the 3/4 skilly type w/ a xbow so I'm not the best on marital full tilt stuff..
but I think having your own "combat expertise" as a feat is good, then you can use M.Flex to gain whatever manuevers you see fit at the time.
Power attack and Cleave might be good. You'll be swamped a bit considering your habit of charging in so multi hits not a bad idea.
Well in heavy armour dex isn't super useful. Go look up the various armour's max dex, and max dex from materials and see how much will actually ever apply towards it. This guy isn't gonna be using many dex based skills I think. He's notreally tumbling much.
I'd priortize STR or Con the most (depends if you are the mai ndamage guy or if you'd like t obe the guy who's super hard to kill and does decent damage). I'd probably just end up with mental stats all around 10 depending on point buy and just focus on the physical skills. It'll suck not having a ton of skill points and tools if your used to that, but brawler doesn't have too bad of skill points. as long as you don't dump the mental stats it's not too bad for the skills. You just won't be at the level of someone with tons of skill points. But since you have M.Flex you could pick u pfeats like +Will save to represent his stubborness, and skill focus if yo uwanted intimdate badly. If you view m.Flex as a power up and not a tool box you certainly can use feats to up your skills and durability. If you run out of flex for the day you could fluff it as his indominable endurance is finally running out. and just collapse snoring or whip out some alochol "gut buster" take a swig and pass out where you stand.
Unarmed fighter? Just for the style? Which style were you looking at? I don't know all the styles off hand but i'm not sure if any really fit. I suppose Dragon for the charging over all terrains is good though. You could snag that, or you could snag a few levels of armoured barb for the movement speed fix they get for heavy armour.
Alternatively. If you really wanted to have more dex and didn't mind sacraficing the actual character likeness. You could get chain shirt pretend it's full body sized with spikes and such but it doens't support Thrashing. as thrasing you will be flanked, and lose dex anyway.
Didn't we consider something like that as a special offensive unit for orcs in Conquest? catapults
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I'd like to point out that his name is Thibbledorf Pwent.
Just remember, the more you multiclass martial classes, the more your will save and probably your reflex save are going to hurt. I'd stick to two classes at most, probably mutagenic brawler for the majority and armored hulk barbarian for a dip to get rage and heavy armor.
Again, as has been mentioned, Dwarven Stalwart Defender doesn't really work 'cause Pwent is far too mobile, and defensive stance, the epitome of the defender's abilities, won't let you move at all.
He's not charismatic, he just has the Intimidating Prowess feat to add Str to intimidate.
To build him properly, you need to base him at level 12+, and then see what you need to take over his career.
Fighter(brawler) 3/ Brawler (Mutagenic Mauler) 10 or Brutal Pugilist 2 instead of Fighter (then you need heavy armor prof, and lose 2 feats).
Starting 25 pt buy: Stat increases Str or Con.
If you are planning on Heavy Armor, go Adamantine. Also, somewhere there are rules for dwarven armor upgrades (non-magic).
Stats: Str 18 Dex 13 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8. (Racials Included)
Traits: Glory of Old, something else.
Custom Spiked Boulder Helmet (just like armor spikes, to make it piercing)
Feats: IUS (free),Hard Headed, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, Imp Grapple, Imp Bullrush, Imp Overrun, Gr Grapple, Rapid Grappler, Chokehold, Hammer the Gap, Charge Through, Steel Soul
Close Weapon Damage: +17/17/12/12/7 d8+8 CMB +18 +4 Grapple, +2 Bullrush/overrun.
Should get Gloves of Dueling, +2/+2. Magic Armor Spikes, Boots Striding/Springing, Anaconda's Coils, etc.
Intimidate +21,
I really like the build but i dont think im gonna use the mutagenic archtype because i think martial flexibility is to good to give up. And thepoint buy got changed to 20 now.I was thinking somthing like 16 12 16 10 8 8 before racial mods so i would wind up with 16 12 18 10 10 6. not sure if i really want the low of a cha, and im wondering if i should put the con at 14 and str at 17 and boost that.
20 Pt buy: Str 17 Dex 13 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 7
Boost str at 4 and con at 8.
You need Dex 13 for the grappling feats.
I was just saying Mutagenic Mauler, so that you didn't have to dip Barbarian like most people advised for raging. If you keep martial Flex, then you don't actually need to take the bullrush/overrun feat chains, so long as you have the pre-reqs.
Also, look at getting the Anaconda's Coils belt, then you get a Constrict attack, and can use the flex to pick up the Final Embrace chain when you need it.
Keep a list of fun chains, like the bullrush+Merciless rush combo, the Overrun+Trample line, etc.
Im sorry but you also cant do elminster right unless you have a minimum 20 levels.
Rogar Stonebow wrote: Im sorry but you also cant do elminster right unless you have a minimum 20 levels. As we have detailed records of his life in the form of novels, we can do Elminster just fine at level 1.
Thibbledorf Pwent was always one of the more interesting characters. As I recall used plate armor and it was covered in razors. He would grapple enemies then go into a spasm slicing them to pieces. Though he did have that giant helmet spike too, and I seem to recall him impaling multiple enemies at the same time with it at least once.
Razor armor would just change spiked armor from piercing to slashing damage and call it good.
With
you could dump Int. I would leave points for Intimidate and Perception.
Str 18 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 10
with racial : Str 18 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8
Not too bright--or wise--but I know the player, so this should work fine....lol!
Feats
1. Power attack
2. Combat Expertise
3. weapon focus
5. weapon specialization
5. Cornugon Smash
Attacks at 5th:
w/ (mw) spikes
unarmed +7/+7 (1d6+14/x2) plus Intimidate(shaken condition)
....not bad, but this is just off the top of my head. I want Combat Reflexes in there somewhere to, once you start tripping idiots coming through you area.
Although, now--every round--he decides if he wants/needs to trip, disarm, steal, bullrush, overrun......it's like casting feats instead of spells. Sounds fun!
Are there any prerequisite feats that would open up some nicechains for martial flexibility? Which ones would be best to take?
Sweeper88 wrote: Are there any prerequisite feats that would open up some nicechains for martial flexibility? Which ones would be best to take? combat expertise comes to mind
Dodge+mobility line can lead into shot on the run and spring attack.
I think more than a few things have power attack or cleave as a prereq.
Weapon focus has quite a few things, but chances are you'd pick that line up anyway with your chosen weapon (get weapon spec etc, since I think brawlers count as fighters and monk for prereqs)
you should look at some styles and see if any look interesting (though they don't work the best with this, as it's swift to gain them and a swift to activate)
Later on once you get some more BAB, it might be worth while to have vital strike line stated out for quick access. It's not always worth it o n every build but later on you can get most of it as a swift action for those sorta situations.
On archives of nethys or d20pfsrd (I forget which) they have listing of feat chains so you could go read some of them..
Brawlers have some fun potential for switch hitters (well the shield thrower on in particular)
Not that Pwent is a switch hitter at all-Unless yo ucount himself as a ranged projectile.
Dodge, Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus are all "gateway" feats.
Dodge opens up the mobility chain, Power Attack gives you sunder and bull rush as well as "dpr" options like Furious Focus, Point Blank Shot gives you ranged attack options like rapid shot and precise shot, and Combat Expertise gives you trip, disarm etc.
It might be a good idea to prep some "flexibility" cards ahead of time so that you know what you can pick up and exactly what it does for you. An unprepared brawler is almost as bad as an unprepared summoner when it comes to delaying the game for everyone else.
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