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If other players are jealous of Damiel then Damiel needs to do more to make the other players shine too. Travel on the ship with them and use those potions to let them succeed at bad checks too. Or use your powers to add to their combat checks.


Damiel reminds me a lot of Ezren. With the right cards in hand, he is a beast, but he can also be caught with his pants down. Imagine trying to take down the pirate council without a trusty potion of glibness.


If only you had a card in your deck that could ensure you draw the potion of Glibness.

Oh wait, he has that.

Damiel has more ability to control what is in his hand than any character we have seen in the game thus far. I have played ten games with him, and never felt that I had trouble setting up his hand. I agree with your assessment of Ezren, I just don't see the parallel.


That also assumes that you drew you flask and used it to grab glibness instead of something else. I'm not saying that he is bad, or that he is likely to have a bad hand. I'm just saying that he isn't as invulnerable as people seem to think.


Calthaer wrote:
Ilpalazo wrote:
Not a huge deal either way, I'm not convinced one way or another that Damiel is that broken, but a few vocal folks here are basically saying that he is.
Absolutely. None of these shades of grey; such a thing cannot stand. Characters either have to be ridiculously awesome and the coolest and most powerful and bestest thing I have ever seen, or they are abysmally awful and useless completely.

You say that a lot, but I don't think I've seen anyone state an opinion remotely similar to that :/

Grand Lodge

JBiggs78 wrote:
Ilpalazo wrote:
JBiggs78 wrote:
I've played through Fever of the Lost Sea with Lirianne, Jirelle, Lem, Merisel, Valeros, Alzahara and Seltiyel thus far.

How did you find Seltiyel? That's a character pretty much acknowledged to be the "worst" on the message boards here. Interested to see other opinions of him, although our group isn't playing him.

I like him way more than I thought I was going to. I hate his d4 on Wisdom, but aside from that he can do some pretty sick things in combat. He can make do past most barriers with the help of Abadar. He is interesting. He is not optimal. The fact that the average spell in S&S is not as good (IMO) than in RotR doesn't help. But nonetheless, he is fun.

I play solo with every character in different parties that I put together. I like using different characters that do different things.

I really like Seltiyel. His max stat being a d8 is a bit annoying, but so far (just started using him) a gem of constitution, I think it's called, helps with the d4 and d6 stats. Recharging a spell from his discard pile is also really handy. Anywhere from discarding them to try to draw a blessing to specifically use them when taking damage.

A buddy and mine started the base set tonight and duo'd with Damiel. Quite enjoyable.

Overall, I think he's fun and look forward to using him more. Here's hoping for a Magus Organized Play Class Deck.


Khelthros wrote:
I really like Seltiyel. His max stat being a d8 is a bit annoying, but so far (just started using him) a gem of constitution, I think it's called, helps with the d4 and d6 stats. Recharging a spell from his discard pile is also really handy.

Seltiyel is good character, I also like him. He is like mix between Valeros (good melee) and Lem or Seoni (spell utility). Favored card weapon and then using spells to add 1d6 to combat check is often enough to beat monsters. I have speed to buff Lirianne and Jirelle with their Dex-based stuff and hopefully I'll get Safe Haven spell from Raiders of the Fever Sea set so we get some healing (the biggest problem in our three half-elf team). All in all he is good character, bonus points for Craft skill.

This thread is great btw.


So, I want to discuss Haste.

To me, Haste is integral to the power of the Arcane casters (especially Ezren who gets no blessings).It is their best non-combat card in my opinion, factoring in AD number, perhaps even without doing so. With how much Arcane casters tend to cycle through their deck, recharageable exploration is huge for them. And yes, I think Haste is more important than Augury or Scrying.*

Unless I missed something, Haste only makes an appearance in RotR. I find this shocking. I'd expect at least one to show up in the Wizard and Sorceror Class Decks. I can see them not adding Haste to S&S, and I can understand only putting one in the Class Decks to try and keep all the power levels balanced, but none really surprises me. This alone makes me less eager to play Arcane casters after I get through playing the Divine ones (whom I tend to prefer).

What do you guys think?

---

*Remember, I acknowledge how good these cards are (they're simply not my playstyle) and even with saying that they're amazing I think Haste is more important.


Orbis.

I think what you're missing is that haste is a great card FOR the spell caster. Whereas, Augury and Scrying are good for everyone in your party.

Now, if you're playing Solo, it makes total sense that haste is the best card for you. If other characters are involved, being able to match up skill-sets to specific boons & banes is just SO important.

But yes to answer your question, I'm surprised it's not there.

Grand Lodge

Personally, I'm glad that a lot of cards didn't return in Skull & Shackles. I think it keeps the experience fresh, instead of acquiring the same spells and weapons as before and falling into the same play style.


Blue_Hill wrote:


Seltiyel is good character, I also like him. He is like mix between Valeros (good melee) and Lem or Seoni (spell utility). Favored card weapon and then using spells to add 1d6 to combat check is often enough to beat monsters. I have speed to buff Lirianne and Jirelle with their Dex-based stuff and hopefully I'll get Safe Haven spell from Raiders of the Fever Sea set so we get some healing (the biggest problem in our three half-elf team). All in all he is good character, bonus points for Craft skill.

This thread is great btw.

Keep in mind that the spells you describe can't be used to add to his combat checks. If you want utility from your spell slots, you won't be able to use his combat boost.


Troymk1 wrote:

Orbis.

I think what you're missing is that haste is a great card FOR the spell caster. Whereas, Augury and Scrying are good for everyone in your party.

Now, if you're playing Solo, it makes total sense that haste is the best card for you. If other characters are involved, being able to match up skill-sets to specific boons & banes is just SO important.

But yes to answer your question, I'm surprised it's not there.

I would say that Haste is great for the whole party too. Explores need to happen.

But no, I don't do solo, I like to play minimum two players.

ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
Personally, I'm glad that a lot of cards didn't return in Skull & Shackles. I think it keeps the experience fresh, instead of acquiring the same spells and weapons as before and falling into the same play style.

I agree, but I think there are some basic staples of the game that should show up with frequency. I consider Haste about 80 or 90% as intrinsic to Arcane casters as Cure is to Divine casters. It just makes them so much more effective.


Orbis Orboros wrote:

So, I want to discuss Haste.

I think you are focusing on the tress and missing the forest. The issue is the disappearance of ways to explore for just recharging a card. Haste is a part of that picture, but not all of it. In Rise of the runelords, divine casters (seelah and Kyra) had the ability to gain powers to let them explore by recharging a blessing. Harsk and Lini could recharge animals to explore, and arcane casters had haste (plus Ezren’s ability to generate free explores from acquiring magic cards). Keep in mind all of those methods of generating explores rewarded you for fast cycling decks; the quicker you can turn your hand over, the more “free” explores you get.

In Skull and Shackles, they are scaling back on the number of ways you can fast cycle into those explore cards. Only Lini and Feiya have recharge to explore powers, and so far, potion of flying is our new Haste. Some people like Ranzak and Jirelle have conditional explore powers, but you can’t control when you get those as easily as you can cards you cycle in hand. I would assume this is a deliberate decision by the designers.


On, Seltyiel and utility: I think illuminate is a great spell for him. It lets him buff ranged combat checks, but also can be used for his recharge power (attack trait).


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:

So, I want to discuss Haste.

I think you are focusing on the tress and missing the forest. The issue is the disappearance of ways to explore for just recharging a card. Haste is a part of that picture, but not all of it. In Rise of the runelords, divine casters (seelah and Kyra) had the ability to gain powers to let them explore by recharging a blessing. Harsk and Lini could recharge animals to explore, and arcane casters had haste (plus Ezren’s ability to generate free explores from acquiring magic cards). Keep in mind all of those methods of generating explores rewarded you for fast cycling decks; the quicker you can turn your hand over, the more “free” explores you get.

In Skull and Shackles, they are scaling back on the number of ways you can fast cycle into those explore cards. Only Lini and Feiya have recharge to explore powers, and so far, potion of flying is our new Haste. Some people like Ranzak and Jirelle have conditional explore powers, but you can’t control when you get those as easily as you can cards you cycle in hand. I would assume this is a deliberate decision by the designers.

For one thing, it's also in the Class Decks, some of which have additional exploration routes, like recharging blessings or Agna's recharging animals.

Potion of Flying is only a Haste if Damiel (one character in the entire game) takes it. Although if he does take it, it's waaay better than Haste ever was, so that line of thought is all kinds of weird in this context.

They also left Detect Magic in the game.

I understand the dialing back on it... it just seems harsh in how they did it, not giving a replacement or putting even one of them in any of the Class Decks or S&S.

I don't know. Maybe I'm the only one who thought Haste was a big deal. But personally, I see -very- little reason to take Arcane over Divine now.


Orbis,

I agree with you. The loss of Haste is a huge deal. I just think its an across the board reduction in those abilities post-RotR.


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Keep in mind that the spells you describe can't be used to add to his combat checks. If you want utility from your spell slots, you won't be able to use his combat boost.

That is really good point that I have missed. Not that I have played many spells for that combat trick but I chosen spells that can't be used as part of it.. I didn't remember that when typing my post above. I probably need to change some spells from my Seltiyel.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Potion of Flying is only a Haste if Damiel (one character in the entire game) takes it. Although if he does take it, it's waaay better than Haste ever was, so that line of thought is all kinds of weird in this context.

Drunken Master Sajan also really likes Potion of Flying, assuming it has the liquid trait.

On the subject of missing Haste, I was super excited to get that as Ezren in RotR. That said, it wasn't my favorite spell by a long shot. I definitely valued Augury and Scrying more, but getting multiple explores finally was nice. The recharge was a bonus but not that big a deal. I'd trade both of my Hastes to be able to carry two blessings. And all of the new Wizards get blessings.

Sovereign Court

If Potion of Flying doesn't have the liquid trait, I'm not sure I want it. Any potion you don't actually drink has youdienow written all over it!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Pretty sure the "eat me" cakes from Alice in wonderland could be considered potions, that you wouldn't drink. So they have "eat me" written all over them.


Noxious Bomb and Alchemist's Fire certainly have youdienow written all over them.

Sovereign Court

Orbis Orboros wrote:
Noxious Bomb and Alchemist's Fire certainly have youdienow written all over them.

I love my Alchemist's Fire, I'm sad there isn't another. I dropped both Noxious Bombs ASAP though. Great cards, but the only time those were in my hand was against monsters immune to Poison!


So after reading a recent post of Vic's, I felt I should say something to you guys in general.

I'm a vocal forum member here. I tend to be that way when I'm comfortable in a forum. I'm also very opinionated and I love to persuade people to join me in my opinion, while at the same time being pretty stubborn and hard to be convinced myself if I've already formed an opinion. I also like to keep my posts interesting and fun, with a good splash of humor.

When you combine all of that, the result is that my posts tend to be louder and more... exagerrated? hyperbolic? something, anyway, than my actual feelings on the matter. I mean what I say, more or less, but I tend to say it too strongly. So I'd like to try and clear a couple things up concerning things I tend to say, and most of it can be summed up thusly:

I think the game devs did, and continue to do, a good job balancing the PACG.

Do I think armor in general is bad? Yes. Do i think armor tends to be the worst card type? Yes. Do I feel that some characters could be effectively balanced by giving them strong features and counteracting them with more armor in their decks and/or favorite card type armor? Yes. But do I think armor is worthless trash? No. I think the game tends to be so balanced that armor, which I feel tends to be worse, is a bad thing on characters even though it's only slightly worse. Similarly, do I think that Potion of Flying is better than similiar cards in an amount I find overpowering? Yes, but the amount it takes for me to feel that way is very small because the game is so balanced overall.

Do I feel Lini (RotR) and Damiel are the best characters in the game? Yes. By a ton? No, not really. Nor do I feel there is no reason to take other characters, and I wouldn't even if this was a competitive game. They just don't have to be much better to stand out because everything else tends to be so balanced. The same can be said of those behind the power curve, like Seltyiel.

But the main thing to take away is that I'm not some shouting lunatic that thinks that the game is horrible and some things are the only things to play and others you'd have to be an imbicile to use. I'm just noisy. Sorry if I've given anyone the impression that I hate the game and just want to bash it. In fact I love this game and am full of praise for it - I just don't feel the need to tell you guys that because I figure you know already. Afterall, where are we communicating at?

Well, i'm starting to ramble again, as I'm prone to do (I've actually shortened this post substantially), so I'll stop here.

TL;DR - Remember, even though I'm an obnoxious loudmouth, I love the game too.


/hug Orbis


New Topic!

Now that S&S has been out for a month, more or less, how is everyone feeling about the difficulty, playstyles, etc?

Here are my thoughts (coming from 6-character groups, 2 players, as always for me):

I think the difficulty feels a bit over-tuned, especially on certain scenarios. We have a few house-rules making the game easier that we've maintained since we didn't know the rules in early RotR, but found more fun, and we still have failed more scenarios on the first try than we've succeeded. In particular, I'm blanking on the name, but the Whalebone Plik scenario we have failed 4 consecutive times with our first group (Feiya, Oloch, Lini, Lirianne, Jirelle, and Selytiel), and ended up putting them on hiatus so we could try a different group (Merisiel, Lem, Alhazra, Damiel, Ranzak, and Valeros, now on Base Set Scenario 3). While RotR was probably too easy, we've been having a lot less fun with this level of difficulty.

For playstyle, I'm mostly referring to how the design has a lot more varied checks and skills, and the scenarios tend to have more crazy changes to them. And, as with the difficulty, I think it may have pushed just a bit too hard in the other direction. While in RotR I absolutely loved whenever we got a game-changing type scenario (from something as simple as local heroes to the insanity of Here Comes the Flood), it was a great change of pace that kept things interesting. In S&S, it feels like every other scenario is game changing (heck, the opening to AP1 is essentially the end of RotR AP6 all over again). While I was really looking forward to that, I think it may have diluted the special-ness somewhat.

(While my thoughts here skew negative, I need to note my Standard Disclaimer: this is still a fantastic game, and my favorite board game of all time. I've just noticed since S&S came out, it's gone from must play every time to just a good option to pull out when we want to. And I'm trying to analyze that)


Great topic!

In general, I find S&S a better game than RotR. I enjoy the increased difficulty and find myself confronting more interesting choices when it comes to deck building and power selection.

I have played through AP 2 with a team of The Damiel , Seltyuel, Alahazra and Lirianne, and through the first 11 games with the Ranzak, Oloch, Jirelle and Feiya. Some more specific thoughts

- The flexibility added to non-combat blessings is great. I also think there is a wider array of powerful items and allies. I have had a very hard time choosing which boons to keep from those three categories.
- In contrast, I find spells fairly lackluster. They don’t seem as strong or as interesting in RotR, but that might change. It might also be a result of how much more interesting other categories of banes have become.
- I have yet to lose, but it’s only a matter of time until I do. I have had at least half a dozen razor sharp wins, and a couple of characters on the brink of death. Another bad die roll or two at the wrong time and those would be losses.
- My first time has done far better than my second, despite the fact that it has the lack luster Seltiel. Alahzra and Damiel are world-beaters and can carry a team. I expect the group power to flip when my second group gets another power feat. They are highly dependent on those extra feats, while Damiel and Alahazra deliver the bulk of their power for jump.
- The level of randomness in ”The Toll of the Bell” may be too high. I got very lucky to win on the first try, but can see how it would easily become near unbeatable with bad draws or the wrong mix of characters. I am exceedingly worried about getting through it with my second group. Undead pirates are scary.
- The increased level of complexity makes it easy to make mistakes with rules, especially in non-traditional scenarios. I mostly play solo, and juggling multiple characters together with scenario specific rules is a problem. I had two scenarios I decided to replay because of botching core rules, and that never happened to me in RotR.

I love the design of S&S and hope to see the designers push the envelope with subsequent APs and class decks!

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

One of the big fears we as designers had was this: "If lots of people tell us they think the game's too easy, and we listen to them, and then the game isn't too easy for them, will they actually like it more?" We think about stuff like that all the time.


Mike Selinker wrote:
One of the big fears we as designers had was this: "If lots of people tell us they think the game's too easy, and we listen to them, and then the game isn't too easy for them, will they actually like it more?" We think about stuff like that all the time.

In my case, the answer is a resounding yes! I love games that punch me in the face.

Edit: the "oh Sh@!!" factor when you pull a card like Goblin Keelhauling, Port Peril Corsair or god forbid Owlbeartross is what makes me come back to the game again and again.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My hope is that, given the massive amount of potential content for this game, that some sets will intentionally be easier while others are harder, even going forward past S&S. Then players will be able to drift towards subsets that appeal more to them. (Much as some people will be more/less interested in pirates/demons.)


Ive just started S&S but I'm very excited for the added difficulty. RoTR was a ton of fun, but on the whole a little too easy. We were far from playing optimally and although we came close to scenario loss 3 or 4 times during the entire path, we never actually lost and no character died (if I recall we had close character deaths 2 or 3 times). I actually found the first few adventures more difficult than the last ones, it seemed like our characters became basically gods towards the end, able to do whatever we wanted and crush any bane without much stress.

So my vote goes towards the added difficulty. RotR really came alive when we succeeded by the skin of our teeth, with one card left in the blessing deck and lot of sweating the final few dice rolls. That's when this game shines. Crushing through a scenario in 30 minutes just wondering what new loot you might get is a bit boring.

Sovereign Court

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
One of the big fears we as designers had was this: "If lots of people tell us they think the game's too easy, and we listen to them, and then the game isn't too easy for them, will they actually like it more?" We think about stuff like that all the time.

In my case, the answer is a resounding yes! I love games that punch me in the face.

Edit: the "oh Sh@!!" factor when you pull a card like Goblin Keelhauling, Port Peril Corsair or god forbid Owlbeartross is what makes me come back to the game again and again.

Keelhauling? Please, when we close a location, I sit there asking the group "Goblin Keelhauling wasn't in there, was it?" If I get a random barrier, I think "C'mon Keelhaul, c'mon Keelhaul". The benefits outweigh the risk for me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Its one of the few cards in the game that can kill you with a single bad roll. Yes, you can usually make it, but if it comes out at the wrong time and you get a bad roll it can single handily kill large hand-size characters. The rewards are great, but the risk should worry you.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

We are half done with adventure deck two, and we have only failed two scenarios, both due to running out of blessings within one or two turns of winning. We have not yet lost a character.

Aside from a few particularly difficult barriers with checks that we don't have easy access to in our particular party, I think that the bane difficulty is scaling better (closer) than it did in RotRL.

That said, we are already throwing out dice totals in the mid to high thirties when fighting henchmen and villains in the late teens to early twenties, so the race has already begun.

Also, Ranzak is OP.

Sovereign Court

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Its one of the few cards in the game that can kill you with a single bad roll. Yes, you can usually make it, but if it comes out at the wrong time and you get a bad roll it can single handily kill large hand-size characters. The rewards are great, but the risk should worry you.

Our 4-man party always has assistance cards, and for something like that would definitely use them. I play Damiel, and have a 6 card hand, going to 7 at the next feat (already pumped my assist power to the max, weapon proficiency is worthless for me). That's quite a reward for what little would have to be played to help on it. The draw is risky, but considering you get the plunder no matter what, I'm willing to risk roll 4d8 (We rarely find barriers worthy of me using my Find Traps, plus a blessing at a minimum) to get currently a 9 is very much worth it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What does the Keelhauling do? Still waiting for my shipment to arrive here...


I forget what the check to defeat it is, but if it is undefeated, you draw a number of cards equal to your hand size then bury the same number of cards. But after you act, whether defeated or not, you gain an amount of plunder equal to your hand size.


Check to Defeat: Constitution, Fortitude 5 Or Wisdom, Survival 6

The difficulty to defeat this barrier is increased by twice the adventure deck number of the current scenario, if any.

If undefeated, draw a number of cards equal to your hand size, then bury that number of cards.

After you act, stash a number of plunder cards equal to your hand size.


Andrew K wrote:


Our 4-man party always has assistance cards, and for something like that would definitely use them. I play Damiel, and have a 6 card hand, going to 7 at the next feat (already pumped my assist power to the max, weapon proficiency is worthless for me). That's quite a reward for what little would have to be played to help on it. The draw is risky, but considering you get the plunder no matter what, I'm willing to risk roll 4d8 (We rarely find barriers worthy of me using my Find Traps, plus a blessing at a minimum) to get currently a 9 is very much worth it.

1) I very much doubt that most parties have Find Traps + a blessing on hand at all times. And if you always have to keep those cards available for fear of keelhauling or something similar, it reduces your general efficiency and speaks to the power of this bane. If you are keeping find traps in your deck, despite the fact you "rarely find barriers worthy" of it, it is, by definition, far more dangerous than most barriers.

2) Even with 4d8, you have a roughly 1 in 200 chance of failure. That may not sound like much, but given the consequences of failure that is significant. Let's put it this way, if every bane had a similar chance of failure and similar consequences, most parties would experience character death over the course of the AP. That would make it far more deadly than RotR (based on the character summaries people have posted)

3) Difficulty 9 is generally doable, get back to me when you have to hit difficulty 17. This card is dangerous.

Yes, the rewards are huge, I'm not arguing with you there; we all get a glint in our eye when the card appears and see the prospect of all that plunder. But we should also realize their is significant danger in this card. I am willing to wager that by the time people finish the AP, goblin kheelhauling will have be responsible for an impressive number of character deaths relative to other banes, despite the fact it is a promo card.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Thanks for the keelhauling. Weird card :)


Also plunder, unlike cards you get from say a Large Chest, don't go in your hand but under your ship and you have to win the scenario to collect. I think the failure rate could be significantly higher for S & S. Our group has only found one or two scenarios easyish so far when about half or more were that way in RotR.

Edit: easyish is not a complaint of too easy. We still had a great time and a lot of close calls. It just didn't thrash us like a lot of coops do, which for a campaign game it shouldn't.

Silver Crusade

For the campaign mode, my wife and I are using Seltyiel, Lem, Merisel and Jirelle and we just finished up with Adventure 1. Most of the time, we look at the scenario and say "Well, sounds like we'll be repeating this scenario", but we end up beating it by the skin of our teeth. With Plugg's Uglies, we ended up down to the last turn and only had the last villain to take care of and that was a close call with the fortitude check required to not evade him.

I think the difficulty is spot on as is. When you're worried if you're going to be able to complete a scenario or not and you're almost always going down to the very last turn makes things extremely exciting.

Of course, the going down to the last turn most scenarios may be due to lack of shuffling skills. The 4th scenario of adventure 1 (can't recall the name), we finished in record time due to finding the henchmen almost immediately every time. I think it took us 7 turns to clear the scenario.


Wow, lots of good feedback! I do think the difficulty of the first group may have been at least partially due to the fact that I think we had a relatively weak set of characters, especially early on (Feiya, Oloch, and to a lesser extent Lirianne really want a few power feats to get going; Jirelle is really the only all-star from the beginning), so we might just need to get by this one scenario to start feeling more comfortable.

Another thing that my GF pointed out, that I hadn't really considered until then, that is something of a downside to having all of these different check options: to some extent it really hurts the feel of gaining more power. In RotR, since so much was combat based, getting that new weapon, or a skill feat in your primary stat, was an immediate and big boost, and you generally saw it in practice multiple times during the very next scenario. In S&S, there's much more risk that you'll just get the 'wrong' skill feat, and your +1 Con ends up doing absolutely no good against all those wisdom checks or vice-versa. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but it's something I never even considered when I was praising the idea of having more variety of checks in the game.

Overall, I do have to support Mike's sentiment here. I did go through Runelords saying how much I was looking forward to a bigger challenge in S&S. However, it turns out doing the same scenario over and over when it's not your choice is actually really boring. I wonder if there's some way that you could have a 'hard mode' built into the rules in some way. I don't even know how, but if it can be done, that may be needed to find the right balance.

Lastly, a question and comment specifically on the Toll of the Bell scenario. Question: Since Whalebone Plik is always undefeated until you win, when he escapes you take a blessing from the blessing's deck, even if he would otherwise be defeated, correct? For a comment, I think this scenario feels far too dependent on shuffle luck to be enjoyable. Too many times we lost the scenario and we just had to shrug and say "If only we hadn't fought Whalebone on four consecutive turns, we might've had a chance." (I miss Augury so much) (Also doesn't help that we always seem to find the ghost when we don't have magic handy). If I had to rate them at this time, Toll of the Bell would be my least favorite scenario in PACG, and I don't think there even is a second place. Which is a shame, since I really liked this encounter in the RPG. (Don't necessarily take this as a complaint, the fact that I've gone through 45 of these scenarios and only NOW found one I didn't like should say far more than the level of my dislike for this one. Also, the Queen and the Whale is one of my favorites, just for how well it captures the tension and urgency of that event.)

Sovereign Court

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:

1) I very much doubt that most parties have Find Traps + a blessing on hand at all times. And if you always have to keep those cards available for fear of keelhauling or something similar, it reduces your general efficiency and speaks to the power of this bane. If you are keeping find traps in your deck, despite the fact you "rarely find barriers worthy" of it, it is, by definition, far more dangerous than most barriers.

2) Even with 4d8, you have a roughly 1 in 200 chance of failure. That may not sound like much, but given the consequences of failure that is significant. Let's put it this way, if every bane had a similar chance of failure and similar consequences, most parties would experience character death over the course of the AP. That would make it far more deadly than RotR (based on the character summaries people have posted)

3) Difficulty 9 is generally doable, get back to me when you have to hit difficulty 17. This card is dangerous.

Yes, the rewards are huge, I'm not arguing with you there; we all get a glint in our eye when the card appears and see the prospect of all that plunder. But we should also realize their is significant danger in this card. I am willing to wager that by the time people finish the AP, goblin kheelhauling will have be responsible for an impressive number of character deaths relative to other banes, despite the fact it is a promo card.

I was referring just to my party, I definitely don't expect most to consistently have Find Traps and a blessing to spare. We don't hold the cards just for this purpose, it's just something we tend to have. Our Oloch almost never plays his blessings, and usually holds them for +2s until truly needed. We use Man's Promise, and he explores with the blessings deck. It works for our playstyle. To me Find Traps is the kind of card that gets used once or twice per scenario, usually out of "well I won't need this anytime soon, use it now". However, when you really need it, you're glad you have it. There is no spell we've encountered that is better than it for me. I haven't seen any in the decks either.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying "Wow, this a great card, everyone should hope to be so lucky as to find it". I'm saying that, for the group I play with, finding it would not be a problem unless all 4 of us got completely hosed on card draws at the same time, and two of us have 6 size, plus Jirelle and Oloch, so with our playatyle that is extremely unlikely.

If every bane had similar difficulties and consequences, no one would play the game. If it were more frequent, I would be more concerned. One card out of all the barriers, then mixed in with all the other cards in location decks? Finding that one card isn't a concern for us. When it gets to 15 difficulty, yea I'll be less excited about it. But for now? The benefits far outweigh the risks with the current difficulty. I doubt it will cause many deaths, due to the rarity of finding it in the first place.


Hey Andrew K

Are you in adventure 2 now? How are you finding Damiel performing in comparison to the rest of your party? Still broadly equal or are you the all star of the group compared to say Oloch?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

isaic16 wrote:
Lastly, a question and comment specifically on the Toll of the Bell scenario. Question: Since Whalebone Plik is always undefeated until you win, when he escapes you take a blessing from the blessing's deck, even if he would otherwise be defeated, correct? For a comment, I think this scenario feels far too dependent on shuffle luck to be enjoyable. Too many times we lost the scenario...

Well he wouldn't steal a blessing if one location was closed. I agree that there is a lot of shuffle luck in the scenario, especially if you haven't invested in location deck manipulation yet. I posted a strategy in gameplay discussion about a way to help reduce the shuffle luck if you don't have a lot of deck manipulation.

Sovereign Court

Ilpalazo wrote:

Hey Andrew K

Are you in adventure 2 now? How are you finding Damiel performing in comparison to the rest of your party? Still broadly equal or are you the all star of the group compared to say Oloch?

Our 4 player group (Jirelle, Damiel, Oloch, and CD Seoni) finished Adventure 2 last night. Every character definitely has their areas of expertise. Boon collecting typically goes to Seoni (+4 to acquire magic booms, non magics are almost worthless to us most of the time now), but everyone can do well at their own (Str weapons for Oloch, Dex for Jirelle and to an extent Damiel).

As far as combat goes, I say Seoni and Damiel hit the hardest, but Jirelle carries Old Salt's Bandana and gets 2-die rerolls on just about everything she happens to miss. Oloch hits pretty hard with weapons, and has started going to utility and heal with his spells. Picking up his displayed card at the start of his turn, it's rare he doesn't display his whole 4 card hand for +2 each at various points during the round. Looking forward to him getting a fifth!

Overall, I think it is pretty well balanced. Where Damiel tends to be above other characters, he is very much above them (my average combat is d8+2d6+d10+8 just by playing a potion and using its ability to discard/recharge another card to add Craft, before anything else). However, he's going to struggle with Wisdom and I think Strength (can't remember if that was a d8 or d6). For Charisma, he has no chance without people nearly dumping their hands if it's anything worth passing. He definitely is a minmax character to me.

For his powers, they really are what make him shine. I never use Fire Lance as a bury (2d12 combat), but frequently recharge it (normally a banish for others, 4d8 combat, alchemical trait) and then follow up with a Call Weapon to take it back.

I didn't use his discard assist power much in the beginning, but now that he is giving a d6+2 each time (usually 2d6+2, I try to use alchemicals when I can) I use it more frequently.

His items are 3 combat potions, a Masterwork Tools, the Loot amulet (bury to take a random item from the box, plus another power I don't remember), Sapphire of Intelligence (d10), and another I can't recall. I took a weapon feat early on for the Loot Dex weapon, a whip or something. I regret that greatly, there is only one Fire Lance and nothing else is worth it for me. He is all about utility when it comes to spells, so it's Call Weapon and Find Traps for me, a personal and a group spell.


ryric wrote:
isaic16 wrote:
Lastly, a question and comment specifically on the Toll of the Bell scenario. Question: Since Whalebone Plik is always undefeated until you win, when he escapes you take a blessing from the blessing's deck, even if he would otherwise be defeated, correct? For a comment, I think this scenario feels far too dependent on shuffle luck to be enjoyable. Too many times we lost the scenario...
Well he wouldn't steal a blessing if one location was closed. I agree that there is a lot of shuffle luck in the scenario, especially if you haven't invested in location deck manipulation yet. I posted a strategy in gameplay discussion about a way to help reduce the shuffle luck if you don't have a lot of deck manipulation.

Is there any location deck manipulation to focus on, though? I can't think of any besides buoyancy and spyglass, both of which provide one turn at most of avoiding the villain. I love nothing more than location sorting cards, so their absence has felt painful. Am I just unlucky?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I haven't found much besides Spyglass, and Dodo - and dodo can't help with this villain(Dodo looks at the top card and moves non-monsters to the bottom). Some people may be playing this with class decks and have access to things like Augury at this point, though.

Thus my basic strategy of leaving one location open and empty to try and chase the villain there alone.


ryric wrote:
Thus my basic strategy of leaving one location open and empty to try and chase the villain there alone.

That's an interesting strategy. Can you elaborate as to why you do this, instead of just cornering him in the last location (the normal way, closing things as you go)?

I suppose, through careful use of temp closings, you can get the minimal amount of encounters with the Villain this way and the maximum amount of other encounters (because you won't be auto-closing locations by killing the villain multiple times), but to my initial musings this hardly seems worth the extra trouble in S&S.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
ryric wrote:
Thus my basic strategy of leaving one location open and empty to try and chase the villain there alone.

That's an interesting strategy. Can you elaborate as to why you do this, instead of just cornering him in the last location (the normal way, closing things as you go)?

I suppose, through careful use of temp closings, you can get the minimal amount of encounters with the Villain this way and the maximum amount of other encounters (because you won't be auto-closing locations by killing the villain multiple times), but to my initial musings this hardly seems worth the extra trouble in S&S.

In Toll of the Bell, you cannot defeat the villain, close, or temp close until the location is empty. His strategy was essentially to empty out one location, then go to the other location and try to get the villain to move back to the first location. Since he'll be all alone there, you don't have to worry about bad shuffle luck always leaving him on top and screwing you. You then close the second location and can take him out at your leisure.

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