Rings of wizardry really, really suck.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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So, the ring of wizardry is one of those signature items that every arcane caster thinks “man, I want one of those” when they first read the description.

But after looking into it more deeply, the pricing of these things is very very off.

The price of an item that grants one extra spell slot once per day is equal to 1,000 gp times the spell level squared. Basically, the pearl of power pricing.

I know spontaneous casters can’t use pearls of power, but I remember there being an equivalent item for spontaneous casters in 3.5, and it had the exact same price scheme (and was unusable by prepared casters, so it all balanced out).

So I will use the pearl of power pricing for both wizards and sorcerers.

Now, lets look at the prices of these rings.

These rings are a bit unusual in that their power depends on how many slots per day you get for a level, which means their effect increases as you gain levels. But let’s just assume you’ve reached the maximum number of base slots per day for the level, which is the point where the ring of wizardry is at its most powerful.

And let’s not say “Hey, it’s way better and cheaper if you craft it yourself!” because that is equally true for pearls of power.

So, a wizard gets 4 extra spells per day of the level associated with the ring, while a sorcerer gets 6.

4 first-level spells cost 4,000 gp, and 6 cost 6,000 gp. The ring of wizardry I? 20,000 gp. This is a 233% markup for sorcerers and a 400% markup for wizards. While it is true that it’s much harder to find an item that gives extra slots for spontaneous casters, it shouldn’t be a 233% markup simply to cover a hole in the rules caused by legacy issues (thank you, Skip Williams!). And yes, the wizard can prepare different spells in these bonus slots, unlike pearls of power where he can only regain slots containing spells he already prepared. But he’s paying five times the cost for this slight increase in flexibility, and wizards should be getting their flexibility through scrolls and Fast Study abuse.

Now on to the ring of wizardry II. Sorcerers are overcharged by 16,000 gp, and wizards by 24,000 gp, for a 66% or 150% markup, respectively.

Ring of wizardry III: sorcerers overcharged by 16,000 gp, wizards by 34,000 gp, for markups of 30% and 94% respectively

The ring of wizardry IV is the best, by far. Wizards are still overcharged by 36,000 gp, but sorcerers by only 4,000 gp. This is a 56% markup for wizards, but only a ~4.2% markup for sorcerers.

But to actually afford these items, you’ll need to be pretty high level. For the rings to equal 25% or less of your total wealth, you’ll need to be 11th level for I, 14th for II, 16th for III, and 17th for IV. And by these levels, the spells are only worthwhile when combined with a lesser Quicken (or Quicken for IV) metamagic rod. Between the price for that item, the price for the ring, and the price for the Big Six, I’d be surprised if it were viable before 19th or 20th level.

The one time I could see this item really being worth it or perhaps even a must-have is for a sorcerer with Quicken Spell and Spell Perfection (enervation), at which point it kind of becomes hilarious. But most DMs absolutely hate enervation spam, and the evil mage behind the kingdom’s woes will soon be revealed to have been a lich all along!

For these rings to be worth it, at the very absolute least they should also affect the slots from school specialization and permit a wizard to prepare opposition spells of that level with no increase. It is a ring of wizardry, after all. And preferably, it should have a +1 enhancement bonus to caster level on arcane spells keyed to Intelligence.

With the above changes, the ring might actually be used by wizards on occasion, and sorcerers still benefit due to their higher number of base spells per day.

However, it would still be pretty expensive for what it does, unless the wizard never took Craft Wondrous Item and pearls of power are hard to come by, in which case using a ring as their bonded object for half-price crafting makes this much more attractive. But that is only beneficial if the DM is being a jerk about magic items.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).


One small clarification on your cost calculations: Since the comparison item only allows a single spell, all subsequent spells should be costed out as slotless.


These rings are very expensive but you will get more slot then you claim.

A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha. That gives 4 bonus spells witch would also be doubled.

What you are really paying for is the versatility. I can use PoP to spam the same buff over the whole group but this item doubles the buffs I can do that with. Also lets you leave open many more slots for niche spells.

Not sure if wands (with staff like wand) or scrolls would be cheaper party buffs.


Mathius wrote:

A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha. That gives 4 bonus spells witch would also be doubled.

No. "Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled."


GinoA wrote:
One small clarification on your cost calculations: Since the comparison item only allows a single spell, all subsequent spells should be costed out as slotless.

Um, the pearl of power is already slotless. If anything, the Ring of Wizardry should be cheaper precisely because it occupies a slot.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mathius wrote:

A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha. That gives 4 bonus spells witch would also be doubled.

No. "Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled."

This. So at most a ring of wizardry gives you +4 spell slots for a particular level. Though not terrible I agree that it's WAY overpriced. I suspect the pricing is a holdover from previous editions when the rings simply doubled your spell slots.


Mathius wrote:


A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha.

The highest most classes can get in any one stat is 36:

18 Starting
2 Racial
6 Enhancement
5 Level Up
5 Inherent

You could squeeze in another 3 Int or Cha if you start at Old Age and eat the severe penalties.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
GinoA wrote:
One small clarification on your cost calculations: Since the comparison item only allows a single spell, all subsequent spells should be costed out as slotless.
Um, the pearl of power is already slotless. If anything, the Ring of Wizardry should be cheaper precisely because it occupies a slot.

Disadvantages to a pearl of power:

1. You have to retrieve it to use it.
2. It takes a standard action to recall your spell.
3. It can only recall spells you've already prepared and cast from your slots.

Advantages to a pearl of power:
1. It's relatively cheap, so you can pick up a lot of them for your lower level spells.

I'd still use pearls almost exclusively unless a GM dropped a ring of wizardry into my lap. Even then, it would depend on what other magic rings I'd found or crafted and whether I could craft their effects onto the ring of wizardry per the multiple effects rules.


There's also a profane bonus available from a succubus' profane gift, and you could get an alchemical bonus from an alchemist's cognotogen.


blahpers wrote:


I'd still use pearls almost exclusively unless a GM dropped a ring of wizardry into my lap.

Well, yes. If you get something for free, you might as well use it. Cost is no longer an issue.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
There's also a profane bonus available from a succubus' profane gift, and you could get an alchemical bonus from an alchemist's cognotogen.

Yeah, though that isn't "most classes".


Athaleon wrote:


Yeah, though that isn't "most classes".

Any class can sleep with a succubus, and any class can take a one-level dip into alchemist.

Sovereign Court

Well given that a Ring of Wizardry I costs about 4k more than what your average metropolis can supply you with unless you're lucky this is an item that is either going to be found or crafted.

You can't make Pearls of Power with Forge Ring and if you find a ring in a dungeon or something it's a free so I'm not sure about the comparison. Most likely person trying to craft it is a wizard who took her arcane bond as a ring I'd think.


BretI wrote:

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).

Also reprinted in ACG.

Also i agree that ring of wizardry is WAY overpriced.


Athaleon wrote:
Mathius wrote:


A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha.

The highest most classes can get in any one stat is 36:

18 Starting
2 Racial
6 Enhancement
5 Level Up
5 Inherent

You could squeeze in another 3 Int or Cha if you start at Old Age and eat the severe penalties.

Not str....

an Abyssal Bloodrager with the DD prestige class with Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) can REALLY ramp out the str.... just saying...


Okay, yeah this is overpriced.
Frankly an item that just added +X to Y level would be better. I would make it something you have to wield in order to benefit from.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
blahpers wrote:


I'd still use pearls almost exclusively unless a GM dropped a ring of wizardry into my lap.

Well, yes. If you get something for free, you might as well use it. Cost is no longer an issue.

I mean, I could try to sell it for more pearls. But I probably wouldn't unless I had two better rings already.

Edit: The other advantage to the ring of wizardry: if you drop it, it probably won't roll as far. Pearls are contractually obligated to scatter and roll and be difficult to find. : D


@K177Y C47
The abyssal bloodline gives you inherent bonus to STR, so one higher than the 5 mentioned above. But yes the +4 STR gained by DD is untyped.


Athaleon wrote:
Mathius wrote:


A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha.

The highest most classes can get in any one stat is 36:

18 Starting
2 Racial
6 Enhancement
5 Level Up
5 Inherent

You could squeeze in another 3 Int or Cha if you start at Old Age and eat the severe penalties.

You can get +4 from a Profane Pact with a Lilitu, among other things.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Athaleon wrote:


Yeah, though that isn't "most classes".

Any class can sleep with a succubus, and any class can take a one-level dip into alchemist.

At least some classes won't accept the Profane Gift due to Alignment or Deity-related restrictions. Many characters wouldn't do it anyways, due to the Succubus' ability to use Suggestion through the link, or end the Gift at any time to inflict the Charisma drain. So you pretty much need to have it Bound, and not every class can do that.

And though any class can take a one-level dip into Alchemist, most characters wouldn't.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Mathius wrote:


A 20th level wizard can have an int of 40 with out to much trouble and sorc can do the same with cha.

The highest most classes can get in any one stat is 36:

18 Starting
2 Racial
6 Enhancement
5 Level Up
5 Inherent

You could squeeze in another 3 Int or Cha if you start at Old Age and eat the severe penalties.

Not str....

an Abyssal Bloodrager with the DD prestige class with Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) can REALLY ramp out the str.... just saying...

Bloodrager and Dragon Disciple aren't "most classes" either.


There is one point I would like to raise about the pearls of powers, they can A) only allow to refill a spell slot that was already prepared and used and also B) they require a standart action (command word) to be activated. Making them less versatile than having a bunch more of spellslots. Spellslots have an extencive value and can be exponentially useful for any type of spellcaster especially wizards.


@Laiho

I addressed that. Flexible spell slots shouldn't be a 400% markup over a pearl.

Now...

BretI wrote:

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).

THEY COST DOUBLE?!

Seriously, why?

A pearl of power is limited to recalling a spell that the caster had already prepared that day. There's a set list of what the caster can recall with the pearl.

Just like there is for a spontaneous caster!

There is absolutely no reason the spontaneous caster version should cost double.

A wizard who prepares five or six different spells of a given level can regain any one of those he happens to need by using the pearl. It's functionally equivalent to making the wizard into the arcanist.

The runestone of power should be cheaper than it is simply due to the fact that having more spell slots per day is less of a boost for a class that already has so many, and would instead rather buy items that enhance the spells they do cast.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thelemic_Noun wrote:

THEY COST DOUBLE?!

Seriously, why?

A pearl of power is limited to recalling a spell that the caster had already prepared that day. There's a set list of what the caster can recall with the pearl.

Just like there is for a spontaneous caster!

There is absolutely no reason the spontaneous caster version should cost double.

A wizard who prepares five or six different spells of a given level can regain any one of those he happens to need by using the pearl. It's functionally equivalent to making the wizard into the arcanist.

The runestone of power should be cheaper than it is simply due to the fact that having more spell slots per day is less of a boost for a class that already has so many, and would instead rather buy items that enhance the spells they do cast.

Yes, they cost double.

I would guess the reason is in the prepared caster's case they get back the spell they cast. No choices about how to use it. In the spontaneous caster's case, they can use it for any spell they know.

Think of it this way, 2K as a sorcerer gets you a Mage Armor and full spell slots. 2K as a wizard gets you a total of three castings (2 pearls plus original) of Mage Armor but you weren't able to use anything except Mage Armor.

The spontaneous casters get more out of it because they can use it for anything.

I'm not sure if the Arcanist is considered a prepared caster or a spontaneous caster for the purposes of these items. I would probably group them with spontaneous since they would have that much flexibility.

My casters generally get 1-2 of the 1st and 2nd level ones just because there are enough long duration buff spells for it to make it worthwhile. Mage Armor and Darkvision being the top two uses.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Agreed BretI - the hefty advantage of being able to spam the right spell when you need it is worth the x2 price. A wizard is stuck either choosing to recall a spell without knowing it will be the one they need next, or spending precious actions during combat recalling just the right spell (which was probably just cast as well).

Overall, Rings of Wizardry add immense flexibility. Overpriced? Maybe a little at the low end, definitely not at the high end. As the OP somewhat accidentally pointed out, the Ring of Wizardry IV is about half the price of equivalent Runestones for a sorcerer.

Edit: There's not really a great formula or comparison for that versatility - Pearls are oddly priced to begin with even, although about the best comparison we have for the raw spell power. One formula that makes some sense and comes close to the current distribution is scaling by Spell Level +1, squared. The +1 would represent the added versatility, on top of spell power. All in all I'd probably suggest this with x4000, for 16000, 36000, 64000, 100000. Then it would make sense at least, and make the lower ones just a bit cheaper.

Edit Edit: Actually... A very close function is (Spell Level + 1.5)^2 * 3265gp. Gives 20408, 40000, 66122, 98775. Interesting.


BretI wrote:


Yes, they cost double.

I would guess the reason is in the prepared caster's case they get back the spell they cast. No choices about how to use it. In the spontaneous caster's case, they can use it for any spell they know.

I had a big rant planned on how the limited spell list of spontaneous casters is basically equivalent to the "must have prepared it today" restriction on the pearl, but then I realized what the problem was:

The runestones don't require a separate standard action to retrieve the slot! Also, since you're not expending any spell slots, you can argue that spells cast via runestones within the past 8 hours don't count against you when you perform your 15 minute meditation at the start of the day to regain your spent slots.

The 3.5 item required a separate action to recover the slot.

Why on earth did they change that?

Grand Lodge

If I am not mistaken it is from 2 things that comes from 3.5. One is they felt that the Pearls when under charged and should have been a higher price but keeped it to match the formulates better. In 3.5 I belived it did double your spells from your bouneses also making it give alot more slot but also be aboused as it as a unnamed bounes so you can get 2 of them and realy max out your spell's per day for a lot of gold.


Majuba wrote:


Edit Edit: Actually... A very close function is (Spell Level + 1.5)^2 * 3265gp. Gives 20408, 40000, 66122, 98775. Interesting.

But by that pricing, a ring of wizardry IX is only ~360,000 gp. The VIII is only ~295k.

I know those items don't officially exist, I'm just saying that basing a formula on only 4 data points can be misleading.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
blahpers wrote:


I'd still use pearls almost exclusively unless a GM dropped a ring of wizardry into my lap.

Well, yes. If you get something for free, you might as well use it. Cost is no longer an issue.

It's not free, a ring of Wizardy is 20,000 gp of treasure allocated. That's 20,000 gp of something else you won't get. If you don't like the ring you can sell it for 1/2 price. So definitely not free.


I wonder if the possibility of a caster carrying and using enough pearls of power to make a necklace was considered when they were priced, or if they were envisioned as a one per (spell) level item?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
DeathMvp wrote:
In 3.5 I belived it did double your spells from your bouneses

No, the Rings have never doubled bonus spells from school or ability score, unless they did for school specialization in 2nd edition (not in 1st as school spec did not exist).

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
But by that pricing, a ring of wizardry IX is only ~360,000 gp. The VIII is only ~295k.

Yes, but in 3rd edition Ring V is classed as epic, and would thus be x10. In actual Epic, they swapped formulas to X^2 * 10000, so it was 250k for V, 810k for IX.

Scythia wrote:
I wonder if the possibility of a caster carrying and using enough pearls of power to make a necklace was considered when they were priced, or if they were envisioned as a one per (spell) level item?

Pearls of Power were not envisioned as items that would be made or purchased, 99% of the time. Only found as placed or random treasure.


TN, you are vastly undervaluing the benefit of action economy gained from the ring, the added options of spell diversity (both from overlap [pearls] and also from having 8 ready at the beginning of the day), and you also seriously underestimate the usefulness of 4th level spells in late game.

The ring may be expensive but not outrageously so. If anything, spamming pearls of power is too cheap.


BigDTBone wrote:

TN, you are vastly undervaluing the benefit of action economy gained from the ring, the added options of spell diversity (both from overlap [pearls] and also from having 8 ready at the beginning of the day), and you also seriously underestimate the usefulness of 4th level spells in late game.

The ring may be expensive but not outrageously so. If anything, spamming pearls of power is too cheap.

I disagree with you about action economy. I really can't remember any fight where I used a full day's allotment of a particular spell level for and then still needed more of that level. With that in mind, it doesn't matter that it costs a standard to regain a slot as its not an in-battle thing and won't be unless you're saying you need to be able to cast like 10 spells of the same level back to back in the same battle. You have a few pearls of power and you burn some spells in a combat, you use those pearls as soon as it is over to get them back.


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I disagree with the OP, merely because the Ring of Wizardry gives slots, not "reruns" of spells you cast that day (which require actions to get and use).

Having additional slots gives a flexibility which is difficult to quantify (and ultimately depends on the resourcefulness of the player). And, as has been said, these slots are all at your fingertip - no shuffling of items needed, as all those extra spell slots are available and ready for use. Superior action economy, superior flexibility.

It's not just about endurance, not about using more spells in a given encounter. It's about having more spell options at any given time.

Consider if you have both a Ring of Wizardry I and a Pearl of Power I.
For first level slots you would have 4base+4ring+2int+1school, assuming INT 20-27. That's 11 spell slots: 1 from your school, and 10 of anything else you know from the wiz1 list. You can have 11 different spells memorized.
Without the ring you can memorize 7.
AND you have the pearl, which allows you to recall a spell.
Wouldn't you rather have 11 spells to choose from when you use that pearl?

ADDED: Here is a list of 1st level spells which are useful well into the high level game....

True Strike
Unseen Servant
Moment of Greatness
Silent Image
Shield
Enlarge Person
Ray of Enfeeblement
Magic Missile
Hydraulic Push
Grease
Featherfall
Expeditious Retreat
Alarm
Break


chaoseffect wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

TN, you are vastly undervaluing the benefit of action economy gained from the ring, the added options of spell diversity (both from overlap [pearls] and also from having 8 ready at the beginning of the day), and you also seriously underestimate the usefulness of 4th level spells in late game.

The ring may be expensive but not outrageously so. If anything, spamming pearls of power is too cheap.

I disagree with you about action economy. I really can't remember any fight where I used a full day's allotment of a particular spell level for and then still needed more of that level. With that in mind, it doesn't matter that it costs a standard to regain a slot as its not an in-battle thing and won't be unless you're saying you need to be able to cast like 10 spells of the same level back to back in the same battle. You have a few pearls of power and you burn some spells in a combat, you use those pearls as soon as it is over to get them back.

It isn't about *any* spell, it's about the *right* spell. When you are running away from the pit fiend then that standard action to recall knock to get through the locked door is a big deal. It would have been great to just have 2 of them prepared.


BigDTBone wrote:
It isn't about *any* spell, it's about the *right* spell. When you are running away from the pit fiend then that standard action to recall knock to get through the locked door is a big deal. It would have been great to just have 2 of them prepared.

I think we're getting into Schrodinger's territory now. Having the potential to prepare 4 extra spells of a particular level is not going to guarantee you have just what you need when you need it unless you're talking about using the ring in combination with Fast Study, which I agree is great, but hardly action economy efficient.


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chaoseffect wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
It isn't about *any* spell, it's about the *right* spell. When you are running away from the pit fiend then that standard action to recall knock to get through the locked door is a big deal. It would have been great to just have 2 of them prepared.
I think we're getting into Schrodinger's territory now. Having the potential to prepare 4 extra spells of a particular level is not going to guarantee you have just what you need when you need it unless you're talking about using the ring in combination with Fast Study, which I agree is great, but hardly action economy efficient.

A 2nd Black tentacles doesn't do you much good when you really needed a greater invisibility.

A 2nd fireball doesn't do you much good when you needed a fly.

A 2nd mirror image doesn't do you much good when you need a knock.

A 2nd color spray doesn't do you much good when you need a comprehend languages.

Dimension door in two rounds doesn't help you when you need it RIGHT NOW.

Dispel magic in two rounds doesn't help you when you need it RIGHT NOW.

See invisibility in two rounds doesn't help you when you need it RIGHT NOW.

Hold portal in two rounds doesn't help you when you need it RIGHT NOW.

The ring actually makes it substantially easier to be Schrodinger's wizard, and for that you should pay a steep price.


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So you're saying you would use your 4 extra spell slots to prepare random spells that are rarely useful on the off chance they would be needed? Really that's what Scribe Scroll is for. I'm not seeing how 4 extra spell slots is helping you all that much unless you are walking around with them unprepared, which doesn't help when you need them RIGHT NOW.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
... and wizards should be getting their flexibility through scrolls and Fast Study...

I agree that Rings of Wizardry are overpriced. I acknowledge, as you do, that they allow you to prepare different spells, which is a benefit over Pearls of Power. However, I don't think raising Fast Study as an alternative to increasing versatility for wizards is fair. After all, Rings of Wizardry are printed in the Core Rulebook, whereas Fast Study is printed in Ultimate Magic. When the Ring of Wizardry was originally printed, the developers had no way of knowing about the existence of Fast Study.

That said, I think Ring of Wizardry is just copy paste from 3.5, so I don't think knowing about Fast Study would have made much of a difference...


I think Rings of Wizardry are correctly priced.
1) They add slots not just allow recalling of spells. If you didn't have the correct spell memorized in the first place, recalling doesn't help.
2) And extra four 1st level spells lets you memorize spells you wouldn't normally have. Having those extra spells slots greatly increase your versatility.
3) They work with pearls of power!

The character with a ring of wizardry 1 should be wearing a string of pearls of power. Each time they cast a useful spell recall it when you have a free moment. A well made 7th level character could easily cast 14 1st level spells per day. (4 normal + 4 ring + 2 stat +4 pearls)


Thelemic_Noun wrote:

@Laiho

I addressed that. Flexible spell slots shouldn't be a 400% markup over a pearl.

Now...

BretI wrote:

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).

THEY COST DOUBLE?!

Seriously, why?

A pearl of power is limited to recalling a spell that the caster had already prepared that day. There's a set list of what the caster can recall with the pearl.

Just like there is for a spontaneous caster!

There is absolutely no reason the spontaneous caster version should cost double.

A wizard who prepares five or six different spells of a given level can regain any one of those he happens to need by using the pearl. It's functionally equivalent to making the wizard into the arcanist.

The runestone of power should be cheaper than it is simply due to the fact that having more spell slots per day is less of a boost for a class that already has so many, and would instead rather buy items that enhance the spells they do cast.

Because Sorceror is a sucky class.

Well, in the same way RoW is a sucky item, at any rate...

I mean you get "flexibility" where you don't have to prep your spells in the morning or find moments when you can sit and meditate while the impatient rest of the party tap their feet and whine about their GUMBO dues. Okay, that's cool, except you've got like 2 spells you actually know, so it doesn't really MATTER that you can decide, on the fly, whether you're casting levitate or magic missile, because you only HAVE levitate and magic missile and they're on separate tracks anyway.

But that "flexibility" is massively over-valued.


chaoseffect wrote:
So you're saying you would use your 4 extra spell slots to prepare random spells that are rarely useful on the off chance they would be needed? Really that's what Scribe Scroll is for. I'm not seeing how 4 extra spell slots is helping you all that much unless you are walking around with them unprepared, which doesn't help when you need them RIGHT NOW.

You're saying that you don't prepare fly? Greater invis? If you had 4 extra slots in 3rd level you wouldn't put fly in one, even if you didn't think you might want it?

Your saying that you don't prepare dimension door as a matter of course? Are you saying that if you had an extra 4 4th level slots you wouldn't prepare an extra one?

The best way to make use of the ring is to prepare 2 extra "oh shit, emergency!" spells and leave two open for utility.


boring7 wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:

@Laiho

I addressed that. Flexible spell slots shouldn't be a 400% markup over a pearl.

Now...

BretI wrote:

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).

THEY COST DOUBLE?!

Seriously, why?

A pearl of power is limited to recalling a spell that the caster had already prepared that day. There's a set list of what the caster can recall with the pearl.

Just like there is for a spontaneous caster!

There is absolutely no reason the spontaneous caster version should cost double.

A wizard who prepares five or six different spells of a given level can regain any one of those he happens to need by using the pearl. It's functionally equivalent to making the wizard into the arcanist.

The runestone of power should be cheaper than it is simply due to the fact that having more spell slots per day is less of a boost for a class that already has so many, and would instead rather buy items that enhance the spells they do cast.

Because Sorceror is a sucky class.

Well, in the same way RoW is a sucky item, at any rate...

I mean you get "flexibility" where you don't have to prep your spells in the morning or find moments when you can sit and meditate while the impatient rest of the party tap their feet and whine about their GUMBO dues. Okay, that's cool, except you've got like 2 spells you actually know, so it doesn't really MATTER that you can decide, on the fly, whether you're casting levitate or magic missile, because you only HAVE levitate and magic missile and they're on separate tracks anyway.

But that "flexibility" is massively over-valued.

The real issue is that you are playing a sorcerer and chose levitate and magic missile.

Grand Lodge

^ lol.

Sorceror are far from sucky or inflexible. I wonder if the people who make these claims have ever played one or seen them in action?

I know sorcerors are a charisma class and all but they do have some intelligence. We're not all stupid. Intelligent sorcerors generally grab a page of spell knowledge or two to cover a few key spells they really like or want, and find a theme to focus on and then use the remaining 15-20+ spells known to cover all of the things any full progression arcane caster might want or need. Sure, at certain levels and even level ranges, our flexibility is notably limited, but in the long run/at the end of the day, it's not. Not by a friggin long-shot.

Want to fly, need force effects, anti projectile spells, construct and item repair and also divination, detection, summons and personal buffs but still want most of your spells to be purely necromantic and debuffs....a Sorceror can do this pretty easily. A well made Sorceror is like a well made wizard but reversed. The wizard needs levels for pure spell level and casting endurance via more spells per day. A Sorceror needs levels for spell level and spells known.

As was said above, a decent level wizard rarely runs put of all spells of a given level in a day. What you need tends to be spread put over multiple spell levels. Sorcerors are exactly the same except change 'what you need' for 'what you need to know'.


BigDTBone wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
So you're saying you would use your 4 extra spell slots to prepare random spells that are rarely useful on the off chance they would be needed? Really that's what Scribe Scroll is for. I'm not seeing how 4 extra spell slots is helping you all that much unless you are walking around with them unprepared, which doesn't help when you need them RIGHT NOW.

You're saying that you don't prepare fly? Greater invis? If you had 4 extra slots in 3rd level you wouldn't put fly in one, even if you didn't think you might want it?

Your saying that you don't prepare dimension door as a matter of course? Are you saying that if you had an extra 4 4th level slots you wouldn't prepare an extra one?

The best way to make use of the ring is to prepare 2 extra "oh s+#*, emergency!" spells and leave two open for utility.

I'm saying that yes, I do prep the standard issue, helps-in-any-scenario spells. And then I leave other spell slots open. My question for you is how will me having a few extra spell slots make me Schrodinger's wizard now without me leaving them open to begin with and as such negating the action economy benefit of using the ring? If I need to Fast Study prep then I may be better off just preparing a different spell in each slot and then pearl of powering to get them back as needed, which I could do for a lot less gold and at a faster action economy as one standard actions beats a minute.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:

@Laiho

I addressed that. Flexible spell slots shouldn't be a 400% markup over a pearl.

Now...

BretI wrote:

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).

THEY COST DOUBLE?!

Seriously, why?

Because spontaneous casters always get the short end of the stick on the rules, it's really there if you know where to look.


leo1925 wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:

@Laiho

I addressed that. Flexible spell slots shouldn't be a 400% markup over a pearl.

Now...

BretI wrote:

The spontaneous caster item is the Runestone of Power.

Originally printed in Pathfinder Society Field Guide (pg 53) it is also in Advanced Class Guide (pg 234). The price is 2,000 gp (1st), 8,000 gp (2nd), 18,000 gp (3rd), 32,000 gp (4th), 50,000 gp (5th), 72,000 gp (6th), 98,000 gp (7th), 128,000 gp (8th), 162,000 gp (9th).

THEY COST DOUBLE?!

Seriously, why?

Because spontaneous casters always get the short end of the stick on the rules, it's really there if you know where to look.

The big reason why they cost double is they are more useful than pearls of power by a large magnitude. Say I'm wizard and cast the shield spell and between fights use my pearl to recall the shield spell. I can only cast shield. Now say I'm sorcerer and cast shield as well but I use the rune stone. I still have spell for the day to cast any other spell I'm know which can be a very wide list of with using Pages or Spell Knowledge and playing a Human sorcerer. At 1000 gp a spell, I could most of the spells that wizard has as known spells and the rune stone allows me to cast any one of them. Much more powerful and pearl of power. Double seems a really good deal to me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Just like there is for a spontaneous caster!

There is absolutely no reason the spontaneous caster version should cost double.

The Runestone is far more flexible than a pearl. It essentially gives you a bonus spell slot which you can use almost anyway you want.

The Pearl can't be used to cast a spell that you haven't already prepped and expended. That's a MAJOR difference.


I let pearls of power work on any spellcaster whatsoever (netting a prepared spell or expended spontaneous spell-slot), so I really don't care what the price of the runestones are in games I GM.

It's one of the things I've done for so long I keep forgetting that (now) there are other options.

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