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I figure that monologuing makes the bad-guy lose the surprise round - but otherwise doesn't take up game time.
Though I might allow the players to do something sneaky while he's monologuing if it's clever. Not just shooting him with an arrow.
"You caught me monologuing you sly dog!"
"Stop shooting him and let him finish talking!"
Bonus points if you know where both quotes come from. (different sources)
Honestly, it's something that has never made sense to me.
I know it's a classic staple of movies, and tv shows, etc. But it has never made sense. Why would the BBEG take the time to explain what he was doing to the people he was about to kill and who were trying to kill him. Maybe if you have some incredibly short-sighted moronic villain they might need to stroke their ego enough to justify having them monologue in front of the PCs. But normally, he should just set about killing them or retreating.
If you really need to monologue to the PCs Persistent Image can do the trick for you.
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Do it like they did in Unbreakable by M Night Shymalan. Do the whole monologue in flashbacks. "Now you know who you are; now you know who I am. I should have known. It was the kids David. They called me Mr Glass."
I love monologues. As a GM I try to work them in though my players always spoil them. When I'm a player though I always make a point to sit up and listen and play up my PCs reactions. I'm a sucker for comic books and by that I mean good old fashioned super hero types. I suppose I have monologuing villains on the brain.
As for why villains do it? Are you kidding? I do it in my daily life, though not as grandiose. Who here can't say that, every once in a while when you feel you're right about something you don't explain HOW right you are? Congrats - you're monologuing. Now pretend that by explaining to bob in accounting how you were smart enough to manipulate Sarah into going out with you as part of your master plan he becomes so enraged that he and his three friends pull their medieval weapons and fantasy spells and begin trying to kill you. Who cares? You pull a level, drop through a trapdoor in the floor and the entire inside sales team of expendable minions keeps them busy while you escape.
Did I mention how into comics I am?
In my game talking before figthing is often a option. But if the players get a feeling that the talking is a trick and not a flavor thing they Can become murder hobos.
I like the talking part of combat and often have it unless there is a surprise round.
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I figure that monologuing makes the bad-guy lose the surprise round - but otherwise doesn't take up game time.
Though I might allow the players to do something sneaky while he's monologuing if it's clever. Not just shooting him with an arrow.
"You caught me monologuing you sly dog!"
"Stop shooting him and let him finish talking!"
Bonus points if you know where both quotes come from. (different sources)
that moment you realize no one clicks your links...
How about throughout a hallway, on their way to a face-off, his monologue already echoes.
Set off by a sensor/silent alarm.
Then they come to the room where he isn't...or is he?
Invisibility.
Yeah, someone got the first quote right with "The Incredibles." The second one is from "The Gamers."
As for monologuing, it is a staple. It may be a cliche, but Joss Whedon once said that cliches exist because they *work*. People like them. My compromise is that--for the right villain--he or she might try to monologue (and some player characters will listen because they're interested to learn the details), but I don't arbitrarily hamstring the PCs. Now, I may not pause and ask "do you interrupt him?" but if a player says, "While he's talking I want to . . ." then the PC can certainly act, and it may end the monologue. That's just how it goes. I try to strike a balance between fun fantasy tropes and a sense of realism. If they want to interrupt, they can.
Under the circumstances, to be fair, I don't think anyone has the advantage of surprise (unless a PC is hidden, invisible, etc.), so if the PCs attack during a monologue, everyone (including the BBEG) has to roll for initiative.
Yeah, someone got the first quote right with "The Incredibles." The second one is from "The Gamers."
As for monologuing, it is a staple. It may be a cliche, but Joss Whedon once said that cliches exist because they *work*. People like them. My compromise is that--for the right villain--he or she might try to monologue (and some player characters will listen because they're interested to learn the details), but I don't arbitrarily hamstring the PCs. Now, I may not pause and ask "do you interrupt him?" but if a player says, "While he's talking I want to . . ." then the PC can certainly act, and it may end the monologue. That's just how it goes. I try to strike a balance between fun fantasy tropes and a sense of realism. If they want to interrupt, they can.
Under the circumstances, to be fair, I don't think anyone has the advantage of surprise (unless a PC is hidden, invisible, etc.), so if the PCs attack during a monologue, everyone (including the BBEG) has to roll for initiative.
Ok so that's a start. So Baron Boilface is monologuing and the barbarian says "*&^! this noise!" and charges at him.
So then you roll for initiative? And if the barbarian wins he gets another attack? Or what's happened?
I guess i'm unsure how to handle the switchover from RP to combat.
As the GM, you're the one who decides when combat starts. It's as simple as that. In this case, both sides are fully aware of each other so I don't see why either would get surprise. Surprise really is only meant to be used when one side is completely unaware.
If the bad guy would otherwise get a surprise round, then he can certainly monologue and still get an attack off... after all, talking is a free action ;)
However! He might also use that surprise round for as a diplomacy check (accelerated if necessary) to convince the party to 'join him or die'.
Ok so that's a start. So Baron Boilface is monologuing and the barbarian says "*&^! this noise!" and charges at him.So then you roll for initiative? And if the barbarian wins he gets another attack? Or what's happened?
I guess i'm unsure how to handle the switchover from RP to combat.
If the barbarian wins initiative, then you treat it like any other situation in which someone wins initiative. At that point it is no different from a situation in which the PCs walk into a room, see a bad guy who sees them, too, and everyone rolls. So he doesn't get an extra attack unless he normally gets more than one attack. No one has the benefit of surprise.
Well, the PCs shouldn't interrupt or they'll lose out on valuable information, right? In the movies, the villain always reveals unknown details about his evil scheme, maybe even hints where he hid the treasure, etc.
The PCs might learn that they should keep their weapons sheathed if they want those juicy details.
As for surprise rounds, Simon Legrande is right - this type of situation should really not have a surprise round ever, unless the PCs are legitimately unaware that the BBEG is their enemy even after the monologue. If both sides are aware of the other, there is no surprise round. It doesn't go "I fire an arrow at him, creating a surprise round" it goes "I raise my bow", "ok everyone roll for initiative."
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Monologues are a tool for the GM to tell the players a piece of the story. I usually don't adjudicate any actions (players or NPCs) until the monologue is finished.
"But realistically, we wouldn't wait for him to finish talking when we know he's the bad guy; we'd just attack!" Almost nothing about this game is "realistic."
-Skeld
and the players love to hear it.
Do they?
The worst thing about it is if the first PC to interrupt gets a surprise round vs the other players.
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Ok so that's a start. So Baron Boilface is monologuing and the barbarian says "*&^! this noise!" and charges at him.
So then you roll for initiative? And if the barbarian wins he gets another attack? Or what's happened?
I guess i'm unsure how to handle the switchover from RP to combat.
The in-character barbarian says, "I charge at him."
The out-of-character barbarian says, "Let's roll initiative."This would happen at exactly the same time. And said barbarian will have to wait his turn.
The worst thing about it is if the first PC to interrupt gets a surprise round vs the other players.
This is wrong.
There is no surprise round.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
Unless you're arguing that the person who is talking to the PCs is not aware of the PCs, then no one gets a surprise round.
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Have the barbarian charge who cares.
1. villain starts monologuing
2. Surprise Round! Everyone roll Sense Motive vs villain's Bluff if he's toting a hidden crossbow; otherwise villain vs barbarian's Bluff to anticipate the charge
3. fight ensues; villain, so confident in their master plan CONTINUES monologuing while fighting because talking is a free action
Nothing like Baron Boilface easily sidestepping the barbarian's clumsy charge in the surprise round and momentarily pausing in his monologue to comment: "You see? You are nothing but impetuous children. This is why my plan will succeed..."
Then WHILE fighting he continues
*Baron 5' steps, power attacks barbarian and deals 62 damage plus Fort 22 or 1d4 Con from poison* "...and now at the zenith of my power, my glory is nearly at hand! I have already set things in motion..."
*Baron survives party's onslaught and flies into the air, fireballing the party for 150 damage* ... so that, even if you slay this pathetic mortal form before you the comet will still strike the coast, sinking your wretched kingdom into the sea, while my soul will merely return to it's phylactery. I will rise again in possession of a new body, perhaps even one of yours, and my victory will be COMPLETE! AHAHAAHAHA!!!"
Yeah, that happened. Blam. You're welcome *mic drop*
Barbarian Charging? That's nothing compared to the Monk who provoked the dude to get into her face then headbutted him while I was mid-sentence. That earned a surprise attack.
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Honestly, it's something that has never made sense to me.
I know it's a classic staple of movies, and tv shows, etc. But it has never made sense. Why would the BBEG take the time to explain what he was doing to the people he was about to kill and who were trying to kill him. Maybe if you have some incredibly short-sighted moronic villain they might need to stroke their ego enough to justify having them monologue in front of the PCs. But normally, he should just set about killing them or retreating.
If you really need to monologue to the PCs Persistent Image can do the trick for you.
Think about the type of person that villains typically are. These are not well balanced people. That's probably why they are trying to blow up the world. Egomanics don't just need to think that they are better, they need others to recognize that they are better. It isn't enough that they beat the heroes, the heroes have to know they are beaten. And the hero can't just know they are beaten, they have to know just how much they've been beaten.
that moment you realize no one clicks your links...I figure that monologuing makes the bad-guy lose the surprise round - but otherwise doesn't take up game time.
Though I might allow the players to do something sneaky while he's monologuing if it's clever. Not just shooting him with an arrow.
"You caught me monologuing you sly dog!"
"Stop shooting him and let him finish talking!"
Bonus points if you know where both quotes come from. (different sources)
It's ok, Bandw2. I did.
Quoted for Truth.
. . . Speaking of Pixar what is the deal with them making sequels to every one of there movies except the one that needs it, wich would be the Incredibles.
***
. . . As for surprise rounds, Simon Legrande is right - this type of situation should really not have a surprise round ever, unless the PCs are legitimately unaware that the BBEG is their enemy even after the monologue. If both sides are aware of the other, there is no surprise round. It doesn't go "I fire an arrow at him, creating a surprise round" it goes "I raise my bow", "ok everyone roll for initiative."
I call bull. Villain starts a monologue and heroes listen? He's got a readied action spell waiting for the first mother that feels froggy.
. . . Yeah, that happened. Blam. You're welcome *mic drop*
...
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. . . As for surprise rounds, Simon Legrande is right - this type of situation should really not have a surprise round ever, unless the PCs are legitimately unaware that the BBEG is their enemy even after the monologue. If both sides are aware of the other, there is no surprise round. It doesn't go "I fire an arrow at him, creating a surprise round" it goes "I raise my bow", "ok everyone roll for initiative."I call bull. Villain starts a monologue and heroes listen? He's got a readied action spell waiting for the first mother that feels froggy.
You also can't ready actions outside of combat.
There is an initiative roll, plain and simple. No surprise round, no readied actions. Those are the rules, at least.
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If you're going to have the villain monologue, let the villain do so from a safe place. Say, several miles away, having left a series of magic mouths to monologue for him while the PCs try and figure out how to escape your death trap.
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I figure that players should have enough respect for genre conventions to let the villain monologue for a bit. Enough to tell them some shocking new information, or to show how hilariously unaware he is of how they've already foiled all those schemes. Importantly, the speech should be entertaining to the players.
There's a sort of deal between GM and the players: they don't interrupt you before you've said the good part, and they don't actually lose any advantage by waiting.
Of course, they could try something clever like Charon said, but preferably not something so obvious that it'd make the bad guy interrupt his speech (or that would require me to stop speeching - hard to maintain a good flow if you're adjudicating things on the side). But if, after the speech, the rogue tells me that he tried to sneak up on the villain from behind during the speech, he'll get a roll to try that.
Likewise, sometimes the villain will just be stalling while his flunkies creep up behind the PCs. In that case I'll speech for a bit, then ask for Sense Motive checks. If they all fail, I continue speeching, otherwise it's initiative time.
Honestly, it's something that has never made sense to me.
I know it's a classic staple of movies, and tv shows, etc. But it has never made sense. Why would the BBEG take the time to explain what he was doing to the people he was about to kill and who were trying to kill him. Maybe if you have some incredibly short-sighted moronic villain they might need to stroke their ego enough to justify having them monologue in front of the PCs. But normally, he should just set about killing them or retreating.
If you really need to monologue to the PCs Persistent Image can do the trick for you.
It's plot exposition, plain and simple: It's a tool writers use to fill readers/watchers in on what's been going on in the parts of the story they haven't been privy to during the narration.
It can fit in logically to the scene, like Darth Vader's "I am your father" speech, or it can be an information dump like most classic Bond villains do. Shakespearean characters often did the same as asides, where it was understood that the character wasn't actually saying anything to the other characters in the play, he was just conveying information to the audience that wouldn't otherwise be available.
It can be a useful story telling tool, or it can be a crutch for weak authors, that all depends on how it is used. If I have a BBEG monologue in a game as an information dump, I usually treat it as a meta-event: It's basically boxed text that is passing information on to players, the Barbarian doesn't get to charge, the Wizard doesn't get to start casting spells, nothing happens until I finish my damn speech. However, I personally prefer to pass the information on to players in different ways, like finding the BBEG's notes afterwards, or interrogating prisoners, etc.
I undersatnd it's for telling a story, but if we are role playing and trying to have a semi-realistic world it just simply has no place in my opinion. I understand how it works, why it is useful, why people expect, so foruth and so on.
I just don't think it makes any actual sense in Pathfinder and DnD. If I can't find a way to provide the informaiton to the players in some other capacity...they just have to deal with not knowing.
Don't let realism stop you from doing what you really want to do. Realism is just a tool, not a goal.
You just won every thread on these boards! This is very much the answer.
The bad guys love to do it and the players love to hear it.
So how do you handle Initiative in these situations.
[1] The bad guy appears but the players think he's a good guy, they discuss matters, and then he reveals/is revealed to be the bad guy during a monologue then raises his hidden crossbow to fire.
[2] The bad guy appears and the players know he's a bad guy. He monologues a bit first but the players have their weapons ready.
1. Standard initiative roll. They know he's there, he knows they're there, no surprise round.
2. Talking is a free action, so he (and the PCs) are free to speak as long as they like. Once they're done with the exposition, standard initiative check.
The bad guys love to do it and the players love to hear it.
So how do you handle Initiative in these situations.
[1] The bad guy appears but the players think he's a good guy, they discuss matters, and then he reveals/is revealed to be the bad guy during a monologue then raises his hidden crossbow to fire.
[2] The bad guy appears and the players know he's a bad guy. He monologues a bit first but the players have their weapons ready.
1. Standard initiative roll. They know he's there, he knows they're there, no surprise round.
2. Talking is a free action, so he (and the PCs) are free to speak as long as they like. Once they're done with the exposition, standard initiative check.
But there's no way to interrupt and stop someone from talking?
Can I filibuster a combat? :)
We're back to having the undead bad guy who talks the party to death :)
Conventions of the genre. Villains get to give their whole monologue. :)
On a practical point, I'll start the BBEG's speech, if the party let him continue - excellent, I'll ask for initiative when he utters 'and now it's time to die' or whatever. If they declare an intent to attack that's when I roll initiative.
Don't let realism stop you from doing what you really want to do. Realism is just a tool, not a goal.
But I don't really want monologuing villains, either as a player or as GM. But in general I agree, I don't let constraints stop me from doing what I want as a GM. If I say it happens, the gods hath decreed it happens (in game).
I think it might be something that can be handled with a bit of gentlemen's agreement....And if that doesn't entirely work, allow them to make a special readied action that can be a full round action/set of actions (if the player would get those) for when the BBEG tries something funny (casts a spell, readies a super weapon, goes for a hostage, etc). That way, they aren't losing anything strategically by listening.
Of course, the shot to the head ending a monologue is of course another staple of story telling, and I can't entirely blame the players for that (they are just roleplaying a character that might not have time for that junk). Maybe occasionally add in something to stop this (a trap, a spell, a couple of enemies with their own readied actions in ambush) that serves as the reason WHY the BBEG feels confident enough to monologue.
Of course, some unseeable trap isn't fair to the players either. Give the players a special circumstantial +10 bonus to perception/whatever applicable skill like knowledge to notice this deterrence if they cautiously let the BBEG ramble on while they assess the situation. This is smart in a combat sense in character, and establishing a precedent for this will make it so you don't always have to put in some cheating deterrence to save the monologue. The players will just do it as a matter of course once any one starts monologuing, since good players are nothing if not suspicious. Combined with the full round readying, they will obediently wait out the monologue (unless they think it is good for the character), even if you haven't put in some barrier spell or trap this particular time.