beyond that, bards never had any exceptional ability to influence people.
FFS who do you think were the people going from village to village telling these mythologies, sharing these stories, passing on the tales from one dirty village to another for some hospitality and a warm bed?
They weren't part of the stories because it's rude to put yourself in one. BEcause they didn't want to hear about how Rolfgar Harlsson had to put down his horse on the way to the village and had to run like hell from a group of bandits accosting him on the road. They wanted to hear how Loki convinced Thor to crossdress to get his hammer back, or how a warrior dressed in an armor of rainbow colors laid with a thousand nymphs.
These people fascinate historians purely because they performed a function both remarkable and difficult at a time where a lot of people never traveled more than a days distance from their village.
priests and religious figures usually, hell any guy who memorized the story at least well enough to tell it. I don't think people just went about doing this until the medieval ages, when they would bring songs and poems to nobles.
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OK people, do you want to argue that bards are totally cool because bards have existed in real life history? Or do you want to argue that history is irrelevant because elves, dragons, and wizards?
hmm, I read more, I simply cannot be in the same group as someone who actually tries to lute mid-battle, i simply find it immersion breaking.
Pretty simple really, if someone starts doing "bard" things to enemies, i'm out.
Also, people keep saying that it's based on history and mythology, I can only think of one(/two) culture that had something like a bard in it's mythology, and that would be GrecoRoman, there was that guy who went down into Hades and tried to get his wife back, and then of course Pan and Pan-like creatures.
beyond that, bards never had any exceptional ability to influence people. sure something called the bard existed, but they did not behave like a bard in pathfinder.
No one in history was ever higher than level 4.
Personally, I would have trouble playing with someone who would threaten to quit if people played a particular class.
hmm, I read more, I simply cannot be in the same group as someone who actually tries to lute mid-battle, i simply find it immersion breaking.
Pretty simple really, if someone starts doing "bard" things to enemies, i'm out.
Also, people keep saying that it's based on history and mythology, I can only think of one(/two) culture that had something like a bard in it's mythology, and that would be GrecoRoman, there was that guy who went down into Hades and tried to get his wife back, and then of course Pan and Pan-like creatures.
beyond that, bards never had any exceptional ability to influence people. sure something called the bard existed, but they did not behave like a bard in pathfinder.
No one in history was ever higher than level 4.
Personally, I would have trouble playing with someone who would threaten to quit if people played a particular class.
and no one was a bard either, in mythology though, i also, am not seeing bards, which is why it's existence feels like a distracting bump in the system, when it's flavor is played out just like a "bard".
And i'm not threatening to quit, i would simply leave because i know i wouldn't have fun with someone who is playing up his bardiness.
Bardic performance is language dependent. So if you start saying weird words in your song you've stopped your performance and the bonuses for that end. Because what is says is important in the bardic performance, that's what is supposed to inspire this bonus in the other people around him.more like his song now is being said in spell lingo, but keeping the tune, his dance changes to have the correct movements at the correct times.stuffSo, you can sing two different words at the same time?
One of which is an arcane amalgam of consonants and vowels with odd inflections and tonal qualities, and the other is some single word that would inspire your comrades.
The mouth, tongue, and voice box...
spell words can still be in your language...
In fact the only language I think that is special is Draconic, in regards to magic, and can beat language dependent effects. fun combination.
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OK people, do you want to argue that bards are totally cool because bards have existed in real life history? Or do you want to argue that history is irrelevant because elves, dragons, and wizards?
Elves, dragons and wizards are great ways to justify discarding some of the limits that strict adherence to historical realism can place on your stories.
What they aren't, is a great reason for discarding the inspiration that history can provide to fantasy.
hmm, I read more, I simply cannot be in the same group as someone who actually tries to lute mid-battle, i simply find it immersion breaking.
Pretty simple really, if someone starts doing "bard" things to enemies, i'm out.
Also, people keep saying that it's based on history and mythology, I can only think of one(/two) culture that had something like a bard in it's mythology, and that would be GrecoRoman, there was that guy who went down into Hades and tried to get his wife back, and then of course Pan and Pan-like creatures.
beyond that, bards never had any exceptional ability to influence people. sure something called the bard existed, but they did not behave like a bard in pathfinder.
No one in history was ever higher than level 4.
Personally, I would have trouble playing with someone who would threaten to quit if people played a particular class.
and no one was a bard either, in mythology though, i also, am not seeing bards, which is why it's existence feels like a distracting bump in the system, when it's flavor is played out just like a "bard".
And i'm not threatening to quit, i would simply leave because i know i wouldn't have fun with someone who is playing up his bardiness.
The pied piper?
Sirens are pretty much monsters with racial levels in bard...
Any story with a seductress who can enchant mortals with her song (it always end up as a her huh?)
The glorious skalds of the Nordic lands...
Arabian Nights... (seeing as its about a girl telling a REALLY LONG STORY and using the story to spin ideas and such)
music, since time long past, has always been associated with magic... heck, even in the modern era music is often used as an analogy to try and describe some of the most mind muddling, nearly magic scientific theories (things like Super-String Theory and M-theory). In both of those theorys everything in the universe is essentially nothing more than a "note" of a cosmic set of "super-strings" vibrating in mutiple dimensions... i.e. the universe IS music. It is Cosmic music...
Bardic performance is language dependent. So if you start saying weird words in your song you've stopped your performance and the bonuses for that end. Because what is says is important in the bardic performance, that's what is supposed to inspire this bonus in the other people around him.more like his song now is being said in spell lingo, but keeping the tune, his dance changes to have the correct movements at the correct times.stuffSo, you can sing two different words at the same time?
One of which is an arcane amalgam of consonants and vowels with odd inflections and tonal qualities, and the other is some single word that would inspire your comrades.
The mouth, tongue, and voice box...
SOME bardic performances are language dependent:
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent .
If it isn't in the description of the performance it isn't language dependent.
In fact the only language dependent for a core bard is suggestion and mass suggestion.
OK people, do you want to argue that bards are totally cool because bards have existed in real life history? Or do you want to argue that history is irrelevant because elves, dragons, and wizards?Elves, dragons and wizards are great ways to justify discarding some of the limits that strict adherence to historical realism can place on your stories.
What they aren't, is a great reason for discarding the inspiration that history can provide to fantasy.
Sure they are. If dragons actually exist in your world, then you're accepting that you're not playing on Earth. If you're not playing on Earth, you're not bound by Earth's history. If you're not bound by Earth's history, bards don't need to exist.
How about the people of this alternate reality have mythical tales of men who lived way back in ancient times that used to be able to inspire people to greatness with their stories. But everyone in this alternate reality also knows it's just a myth because nobody has ever done it in real life.
hmm, I read more, I simply cannot be in the same group as someone who actually tries to lute mid-battle, i simply find it immersion breaking.
Pretty simple really, if someone starts doing "bard" things to enemies, i'm out.
Also, people keep saying that it's based on history and mythology, I can only think of one(/two) culture that had something like a bard in it's mythology, and that would be GrecoRoman, there was that guy who went down into Hades and tried to get his wife back, and then of course Pan and Pan-like creatures.
beyond that, bards never had any exceptional ability to influence people. sure something called the bard existed, but they did not behave like a bard in pathfinder.
No one in history was ever higher than level 4.
Personally, I would have trouble playing with someone who would threaten to quit if people played a particular class.
and no one was a bard either, in mythology though, i also, am not seeing bards, which is why it's existence feels like a distracting bump in the system, when it's flavor is played out just like a "bard".
And i'm not threatening to quit, i would simply leave because i know i wouldn't have fun with someone who is playing up his bardiness.
The pied piper?
Sirens are pretty much monsters with racial levels in bard...
Any story with a seductress who can enchant mortals with her song (it always end up as a her huh?)
The glorious skalds of the Nordic lands...
Arabian Nights... (seeing as its about a girl telling a REALLY LONG STORY and using the story to spin ideas and such)
music, since time long past, has always been associated with magic... heck, even in the modern era music is often used as an analogy to try and describe some of the most mind muddling, nearly magic scientific theories (things like Super-String Theory and M-theory). In both of those theorys everything in the universe is essentially nothing more than a "note" of a cosmic set of...
most if not all of those, not "bards" made it clear my issue is when they play the stereotypical bard. you know, with a lute, dancing, i suddenly hit things better.
the pied piper sort of is a story people told their children so they would stay inside at night. if you don't know it was originally him leading children off to never return. as with all things, it eventually became more children friendly.
musical captivation, is a mythological trope, someone dancing making me fight better and being able to kill people with music, and casting magic. are not something you generally see in mythology as a guy playing a flute, but as a supernatural entity with only one of those listed.
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I dunno, but if someone was singing a happy song while they punctured someone's lung with a sword, I wouldn't exactly be calling them a sissy. I wouldn't discount them from a gritty setting either.
But even still, if you're singing about the David killing the Giant and you throw in another verse of incantation words for your haste spell that's still going to break the performance while you cast.
"And with lightning speed, David slung three stones
"The stones flew faster than a bullet to break its bones!"The key word is "integrate".
Seriously, guy, have you even freaking tried to look? Taliesin? Orpheus?and no one was a bard either, in mythology though, i also, am not seeing bards, which is why it's existence feels like a distracting bump in the system, when it's flavor is played out just like a "bard".
And i'm not threatening to quit, i would simply leave because i know i wouldn't have fun with someone who is playing up his bardiness.
Orpheus is the guy I specifically mentioned, who travels to Hades and sings a song to him and manages to make Hades shed a tear.
Taliesin, was an actual bard, AKA nothing like what bards in pathfinder do. Bards in RL, went around basically "selling" poems and songs to nobles for cash.
back to Orpheus, also not like a bard, and was basically supernaturally gifted just for that one narrative to carry out. Orpheus would also, likely have had a charisma in the 30-40s as women chased him all over and even men desired him, he was said to have been ripped apart by women eventually...
It's true. While the bardic performance ability and the Perform skill are both closely related... they aren't co-dependant. Think of it as similar to the relationship between spellcasting and the Spellcraft skill. You can still cast spells if you don't have ranks in Spellcraft.
From a roleplaying viewpoint, it makes sense that a bard who has ranks in specific Perform skills will want to use those performances to add flavor to his bardic performance ability to describe and represent what his bardic performance actually looks like... but he doesn't actually ever NEED ranks in a Perform skill to use bardic performance. He only ever needs to make a Perform check for a few of his specialized bardic performance skills (such as countersong or distraction) but he can do that EVEN if he has no ranks in a particular Perform check. He'll just create a better result if he uses a check he's really good at is all.
For things like fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, and most other bardic performance abilities, the Perform skill doesn't interact with the bardic performance at all.
If you have a bard with 20 ranks in Perform (keyboard), you can STILL use inspire courage on the battle field to grant bonuses to allies and keep fighting or spellcasting yourself. You aren't actually playing the piano while you're fighting or spellcasting just because your best Perform skill happens to be Perform (keyboard).
Bard performances don't have to be musical numbers.
A drill sergeant chastising his troops to excel is a bard performance.
A dancer spurring her allies on to greater inspiration in battle is a bard performance.
A general giving orders to the army at the start of the fight is a bard performance.
A tactician shouting out battlefield advice is a bard performance.
Furthermore, once a bard starts a bard performance... he doesn't have to "stand to one side singing." It's a standard action to start a bard performance, and at higher level this turns into a move action and finally a swift action. Once the performance starts, the bard gets to maintain the effects each round for free—he doesn't have to keep spending actions to perform. His performance becomes a part of all the actions he takes AFTER he starts the performance, be that fighting alongside the rest, casting spells, sneaking around, disabling traps, or whatever.
stuffActually if you choose singing as your bardic performance type then all the effects would be language dependent because they have an audible component.
And then if you are singing "The ballad of +2 buffs for my party" and want to cast a spell, the words of the spell are not going to provide the bonus that the song would. They are different. Performance does not equal Spell.
even if they were, which I don't feel like looking up, I said before that verbal components can and usually are in your dominant language.
what part about weaving do you not understand, he puts the verbal words necessary into his upcoming verse where they make sense.
PS. since i think people missed this, my first post, was of what i thought a bard actually is most commonly. It was a soldier singing a battle hymn as he fought, and people finished the last few lines with him. I don't like the idea of constant singing and i imagine he just actually says a few lines and then the battle goes about it's business.
OK people, do you want to argue that bards are totally cool because bards have existed in real life history? Or do you want to argue that history is irrelevant because elves, dragons, and wizards?Elves, dragons and wizards are great ways to justify discarding some of the limits that strict adherence to historical realism can place on your stories.
What they aren't, is a great reason for discarding the inspiration that history can provide to fantasy.
Sure they are.
Well, if it works for you, go for it, but it seems very foolish to me.
A general giving orders to the army at the start of the fight is a bard performance.
Well, if it works for you, go for it, but it seems very foolish to me.OK people, do you want to argue that bards are totally cool because bards have existed in real life history? Or do you want to argue that history is irrelevant because elves, dragons, and wizards?Elves, dragons and wizards are great ways to justify discarding some of the limits that strict adherence to historical realism can place on your stories.
What they aren't, is a great reason for discarding the inspiration that history can provide to fantasy.
Sure they are.
It may be foolish, sure. But it is a perfectly valid reason to eliminate the class from your game world.
Bardic performance is language dependent. So if you start saying weird words in your song you've stopped your performance and the bonuses for that end. Because what is says is important in the bardic performance, that's what is supposed to inspire this bonus in the other people around him.more like his song now is being said in spell lingo, but keeping the tune, his dance changes to have the correct movements at the correct times.stuffSo, you can sing two different words at the same time?
One of which is an arcane amalgam of consonants and vowels with odd inflections and tonal qualities, and the other is some single word that would inspire your comrades.
The mouth, tongue, and voice box...spell words can still be in your language...
In fact the only language I think that is special is Draconic, in regards to magic, and can beat language dependent effects. fun combination.
I was under the impression that arcane spells had a 'language' all their own like the arcane writings made up in scrolls and spell books. Which is why you need a Read Magic spell to read a spell book or scroll.
But even still, if you're singing about the David killing the Giant and you throw in another verse of incantation words for your haste spell that's still going to break the performance while you cast.
And you're thinking Druidic not Draconic I think.
actually the lore reason for deciphering and read magic is that wizards are paranoid and everything is written down in their spell books in super complex math or something, same with scrolls. It suggests that the understanding of the spell is more important than the specific reagents(unless specified) or specific movements or words. AKA, any spell has hundreds upon thousands of different ways to cast it. maybe in a forest area, they learned to cast the spell with moss, frog's eye, and a drop of demon blood. while in a desert, they use rocksalt, crushed incense and Camel Feces.
edit: also no i didn't
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You don't even need words to sing in the first place. A language dependent effect depends on you needing a language, which singing doesn't.
Someone who has spent their life mastering singing to make it into music could certainly weave their spells into their music. Heck, I can speak in recitative spontaneously if I feel like it. I imagine some mythological figure that represents the magic of music could absolutely pull that kind of thing off.
Bardic performance is language dependent. So if you start saying weird words in your song you've stopped your performance and the bonuses for that end. Because what is says is important in the bardic performance, that's what is supposed to inspire this bonus in the other people around him.more like his song now is being said in spell lingo, but keeping the tune, his dance changes to have the correct movements at the correct times.stuffSo, you can sing two different words at the same time?
One of which is an arcane amalgam of consonants and vowels with odd inflections and tonal qualities, and the other is some single word that would inspire your comrades.
The mouth, tongue, and voice box...spell words can still be in your language...
In fact the only language I think that is special is Draconic, in regards to magic, and can beat language dependent effects. fun combination.
I was under the impression that arcane spells had a 'language' all their own like the arcane writings made up in scrolls and spell books. Which is why you need a Read Magic spell to read a spell book or scroll.
But even still, if you're singing about the David killing the Giant and you throw in another verse of incantation words for your haste spell that's still going to break the performance while you cast.
And you're thinking Druidic not Draconic I think.
While I don't think that your argument is in any way illogical or wrong, I also think that it simply isn't supported by the rules (or at least my knowledge of the rules). In fact, somebody linked to a post by James Jacobs specifically saying, very clearly, that bardic performance does not interfere with spell casting of any kind.
I tend to think that bard spells and their components just work differently than with other arcane casters, such that they can be used at the same time as...
To further augement your statement:
Remember, bard spells ALWAYS have somatic components. There are wizard spells without somatic components, so this implys bard spells are different that wizard spells.... that and they are on a totally different spell list
actually the lore reason for deciphering and read magic is that wizards are paranoid and everything is written down in their spell books in super complex math or something, same with scrolls. It suggests that the understanding of the spell is more important than the specific reagents(unless specified) or specific movements or words. AKA, any spell has hundreds upon thousands of different ways to cast it. maybe in a forest area, they learned to cast the spell with moss, frog's eye, and a...Bardic performance is language dependent. So if you start saying weird words in your song you've stopped your performance and the bonuses for that end. Because what is says is important in the bardic performance, that's what is supposed to inspire this bonus in the other people around him.more like his song now is being said in spell lingo, but keeping the tune, his dance changes to have the correct movements at the correct times.stuffSo, you can sing two different words at the same time?
One of which is an arcane amalgam of consonants and vowels with odd inflections and tonal qualities, and the other is some single word that would inspire your comrades.
The mouth, tongue, and voice box...spell words can still be in your language...
In fact the only language I think that is special is Draconic, in regards to magic, and can beat language dependent effects. fun combination.
I was under the impression that arcane spells had a 'language' all their own like the arcane writings made up in scrolls and spell books. Which is why you need a Read Magic spell to read a spell book or scroll.
But even still, if you're singing about the David killing the Giant and you throw in another verse of incantation words for your haste spell that's still going to break the performance while you cast.
And you're thinking Druidic not Draconic I think.
This is actually kind of true, even within basic system mechanics. How? Because we have teh feats Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials... With these three feats you effectively removed all random stuff from the spell (like handwaving and fancy words and material stuff) but yet you are still able to cast a spell.
stuff...
It doesn't say anything about casting just taking different kinds of actions. The issue I've pointed out is in the Spell Casting rules that say if you can't say the words of the spell or make the gestures you can't cast.If you're performing and playing an instrument how are you to say the spell words or make the gestures without stopping the performance was my question. Or statement. Not sure which I made at this point but both are valid :D
as i've said, you can say the spell words mid verse as part of teh verse, and you can do the proper movements at the specific times their needed.
as i've said, you can say the spell words mid verse as part of teh verse, and you can do the proper movements at the specific times their needed.stuff...
It doesn't say anything about casting just taking different kinds of actions. The issue I've pointed out is in the Spell Casting rules that say if you can't say the words of the spell or make the gestures you can't cast.If you're performing and playing an instrument how are you to say the spell words or make the gestures without stopping the performance was my question. Or statement. Not sure which I made at this point but both are valid :D
There is also the possibility that bards don't cast spells like wizards lol. After all, bards can cast their spells in armor as well... Because, you know, wizards are not the be all end all of the arcane world and everone else casts like them lol.
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So your answer is, "I don't know how bards work, so ignore the rules."
Got it.
And your answer is "I've never spoken aloud in my life, so I don't know how a voice works."
Got it.Now that the smart ass snide remarks are out of the way let us go look at the book under bard. And what do we have on pages 36 to 38?
Why it's where it says all* bardic performance effects have an audible effect. If a bardic performance has an audible effect it is language dependent.
*Inspire courage is the only one that gives you a choice of Audible or Visual.
It doesn't say that.
I mean I've literally quoted it for you and you got it wrong, so why not do it again?
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent . A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
Also auditory is not the same as verbal. Auditory means it must be heard, verbal means it is spoken. These are not the same. It could be heard, but not be verbal, however it cannot be verbal without being heard.
The error you have made is called converse error.
As my recent logic instructor is fond of saying, "Words have meaning!"
You seem to have different words confused with each other.
K177Y C47 are you not feeling well tonight?
Bard spells all have verbal components -- not somatic ones.
Also you seemed to have grabbed part of my conversation with someone else and gotten confused on where you were in it and who you were referencing too.
It may be foolish, sure. But it is a perfectly valid reason to eliminate the class from your game world.Well, if it works for you, go for it, but it seems very foolish to me.OK people, do you want to argue that bards are totally cool because bards have existed in real life history? Or do you want to argue that history is irrelevant because elves, dragons, and wizards?Elves, dragons and wizards are great ways to justify discarding some of the limits that strict adherence to historical realism can place on your stories.
What they aren't, is a great reason for discarding the inspiration that history can provide to fantasy.
Sure they are.
The dilemma you presented doesn't exist because history isn't made irrelevant by elves, dragons and wizards. The presence of elves, dragons and wizards merely suggests that relevant inspirations from history should also be made fantastic. Like bards have been.
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Bardic performance is language dependent. So if you start saying weird words in your song you've stopped your performance and the bonuses for that end. Because what is says is important in the bardic performance, that's what is supposed to inspire this bonus in the other people around him.more like his song now is being said in spell lingo, but keeping the tune, his dance changes to have the correct movements at the correct times.stuffSo, you can sing two different words at the same time?
One of which is an arcane amalgam of consonants and vowels with odd inflections and tonal qualities, and the other is some single word that would inspire your comrades.
The mouth, tongue, and voice box...SOME bardic performances are language dependent:
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent .If it isn't in the description of the performance it isn't language dependent.
In fact the only language dependent for a core bard is suggestion and mass suggestion.
Actually if you choose singing as your bardic performance type then all the effects would be language dependent because they have an audible component.
And then if you are singing "The ballad of +2 buffs for my party" and want to cast a spell, the words of the spell are not going to provide the bonus that the song would. They are different. Performance does not equal Spell.
I dunno, I'd be pretty inspired if my party bard cast haste on me, or used a dominate spell on the monsters.
Who says that casting a spell can not itself be a Bardic Performance?
I actually do prefer fantastic elements in my fantasy gaming bit more broadly distributed than that, though I did imagine that "merely suggests" would have been a rather unobjectionable way to put it.
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If you're performing and playing an instrument how are you to say the spell words or make the gestures without stopping the performance was my question. Or statement. Not sure which I made at this point but both are valid :D
one hand has a tambourine, playing the performance, that frees up the other hand and your mouth for verbal and somatic. BAM!
Also, have you never seen an 80's rock/heavy metal music video? All kinds of barding going on up in there. Heck, one strum of their guitar and they are straight up transmuting people!
For your listening pleasure, I give you a bard casting resonating word.
Historical names for bards: Troubadour, Minstrel, Poet, Balladeer, Storyteller, Skald, Griot, Fili, Scop, Rhapsode, Ashik, Udgatr. They carried the oral traditions of their people, advised kings, retold legends and myths, arbitrated disputes, and generally acted as learned men. If you ever want to experience the Iliad and the Odyssey how they were meant to be done, you need to find out what rhythm they were sung to. Humans learned to sing before they could ever talk, and our traditions were passed down much the same way.
great and all, but the problem I have with historical bards compared to pathfinder bards, is they served VASTLY different utilities to society. forgoing that bards in pathfinder are magical, historical bards were not someone you'd bring to a fight and simply carried poems and songs to nobles for the majority of their wealth. In pathfinder, they are a combat asset, and are quite deadly themselves. which is why I have a problem with a "bard" in my group.
i have no problems with people who play bards as commanders or skald-like battlers, but if you try to RL bard with a pathfinder bard, i lose a lot of my fun right there.