Which foes are stupid enough to not attack the casters first?


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The standard fantasy trope of "Big guy with sword and shield fights the enemy blade-to-blade, while the dude dressed in robes stands way the hell back and casts magic spells at it" doesn't really make much sense.

Anybody with any degree of intelligence should default to "kill the most dangerous enemy first," which would be the caster. Also, many creatures would default to "kill the most fragile enemy first," which would be the guy without any armor.

So, with the exception of Int 1-2 creatures that don't know any better, why aren't the casters (especially arcane casters) the very first target? (Note that this doesn't apply when obvious strategic concerns and/or an irrational hatred of some other character or type of hero make them a lower priority).

Why don't enemies just eat the attack of opportunity for passing the fighter in order to get a pounce+rake combo or full two-handed Power Attack on the guy who will wreck them utterly (reverse gravity, flesh to stone, sleep, color spray, create pit, suggestion, dominate person, stinking cloud, ray of exhaustion, slow) with a single standard action?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's part of positioning and strategy.... It's everyone's job to make that an extremely expensive and difficult maneuver to do. And that includes the caster using his actions to keep his meat self out of reach. If the surroundings are tight, such movement may be even more difficult. Part of smart strategy is using your environment to your advantage, or at least your enemies' detriment.


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Because the dude in robes is invisible, displaced and mirror imaged?


Even 1 and 2 int creatures might be smart enough to attack the casters first. Well, arcane casters. By which I mean they'll be smart enough not to attack the guy encased in metal in favor of attacking the guy in robes.

That said, those enemies probably won't eat an attack of opportunity.


In my experience it's usually about positioning.

Liberty's Edge

darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Because the dude in robes is invisible, displaced and mirror imaged?

Pretty much this. Unless the wizard is braindead or comatose. He is either buffed up, hidden or flying with spells. Or unless it;s a ambush well postioned in the middle of a group.


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Not only that, but there are some enemies that are such massive blood knights (or have high enough spell resistance) that they prefer to attack the fighters with the massive swords.


Blood knight?


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I'm my opinion to have every encounter -save for the lowest of Int creatures- rush the casters isn't running a roleplaying game and more akin to a minis game. To always attack the casters might be the most strategically sound course, "and by all means some enemies can and will employ this strategy" but to do so every time is plainly meta gaming. If I were in a game and my character was clearly being targeted in nearly every encounter is a game I'd excuse myself from.


In a world where magic is semi-common, intelligent opposition will know to target the casters first. They won't try to red rover their way through a melee screen but they will go to some trouble to get the one in the robes.

Sovereign Court

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Too many factors involved. Trolls for example, don't care about their own survival and attack anything in front of them, even if someone is frying them with fire from afar, they just kill everything standing in their ways.

Positioning of course is important and depend how easy it is for the enemy to reach the caster in the first place.

That's of course, assuming the caster look like a caster in the first place, like wearing a robe and wizard hat. But a caster rocking a leather outfit with a sword or even using transmutation or illusion spells to take a different appearance, might take the enemy at least by surprise for the first round. if you add on top of it, divine casters who are wearing breastplates and wielding weapons of their gods, it can be hard for some people to identify the casters.


Every roleplaying group is different, in mine at least this wouldn't fly. If I were to try and rationalize to my players why a random group of brigands "clearly an intelligent enemy." Were to use tactics designed to exploit an adventuring parties dynamic. Unless this particular group of brigands specialize in nicking adventuring parties.. But as I said each rp group is different, use what works for the entertainment of your players. If I had to take part in a group where for wearing robes I was being hunted my every opponent we meet, I'd do what most of my arcane casters do anyway- not wear robes. I'd stick to my explores outfit.


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Eltacolibre wrote:
like wearing a robe and wizard hat.

I put on my robe and wizard hat (profanity)


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
like wearing a robe and wizard hat.
I put on my robe and wizard hat (profanity)

An oldie but a goodie.


Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.


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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.

If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.

In theory the martials are just as dangerous.

Having your monsters reinforce martial vs caster disparity with their opinion of martials is bound to ruffle some feathers.


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Geek the mage first. Its a saying for a reason.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.

In theory the martials are just as dangerous.

Having your monsters reinforce martial vs caster disparity with their opinion of martials is bound to ruffle some feathers.

All a martial can do is kill you. Things can be so much worse against a caster. That's as much in-universe logic as it is OOC crunch.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:


Anybody with any degree of intelligence should default to "kill the most dangerous enemy first," which would be the caster. Also, many creatures would default to "kill the most fragile enemy first," which would be the guy without any armor.

Although is is true that caster can be stronger thatn martials, it is also true that a good builded martial can kill almost any CR apromiated enemy in one full attack. Ignoring that is not very smart.


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.

In theory the martials are just as dangerous.

Having your monsters reinforce martial vs caster disparity with their opinion of martials is bound to ruffle some feathers.

All a martial can do is kill you. Things can be so much worse against a caster. That's as much in-universe logic as it is OOC crunch.

An no enemy is afraid of getting killed?


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Nicos wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.

In theory the martials are just as dangerous.

Having your monsters reinforce martial vs caster disparity with their opinion of martials is bound to ruffle some feathers.

All a martial can do is kill you. Things can be so much worse against a caster. That's as much in-universe logic as it is OOC crunch.
An no enemy is afraid of getting killed?

of course not. After all, they are nameless NPCs or are villians. They were born with the knowledge of not surviving they scenes xD...


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I'm sorry but this thread makes about as much sense as the "logic" behind trying to sunder a spellcaster's spellbook... it just reeks of GM meta-gamingand class punishing.


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Nicos wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.

In theory the martials are just as dangerous.

Having your monsters reinforce martial vs caster disparity with their opinion of martials is bound to ruffle some feathers.

All a martial can do is kill you. Things can be so much worse against a caster. That's as much in-universe logic as it is OOC crunch.
An no enemy is afraid of getting killed?

Of course they fear death, but we're talking degrees of fear here. No one wants to die... until a caster is done with you. Then you're begging for it. Beyond all the horrible things a PC caster can do if they feel sadistic enough, most people have heard rumors and legends about casters in-universe. Horrible experiments, anything involving dominate/charm spells, polymorphing or fleshwarping, these people bind demons for god's sake! They could literally show you Hell itself in fact, and the devils certainly won't mercy-kill you.


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Well the problem with the STR based fighter types is that that they are tough and the DEX based ones are rather stringy. Now a wizard or oracle that dumped STR and CON has nice marbling and just melts in the mouth like butter and makes the preferred first target in case the rest run away.

p.s. I don't look at the packaging my meals come in, I look for the BMI and a lack of exercise.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Nicos wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Players may frown at the monster eating AOOs just to single out one PC.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.

In theory the martials are just as dangerous.

Having your monsters reinforce martial vs caster disparity with their opinion of martials is bound to ruffle some feathers.

All a martial can do is kill you. Things can be so much worse against a caster. That's as much in-universe logic as it is OOC crunch.
An no enemy is afraid of getting killed?
Of course they fear death, but we're talking degrees of fear here. No one wants to die... until a caster is done with you. Then you're begging for it. Beyond all the horrible things a PC caster can do if they feel sadistic enough, most people have heard rumors and legends about casters in-universe. Horrible experiments, anything involving dominate/charm spells, polymorphing or fleshwarping, these people bind demons for god's sake! They could literally show you Hell itself in fact, and the devils certainly won't mercy-kill you.

I would say that the most normal is to fear what is threatened you in the present instead of could happen in a future. There is no really much time to think when your life is at risk.


Well I'm looking at my martial builds and comparing to monsters on the table by level 12. They do about 20% of a monsters health in one attack. So if a martial charges you and you eat an AOO about 40% of your health is gone. Same tactic next round and 80% of your health is gone.

With 2-3 martials, as a monster you could die in the first round from bum rushing the caster.

I hate when NPCs make suicidal charges, regardless of the game. It pulls me out of the experience.


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K177Y C47 wrote:
I'm sorry but this thread makes about as much sense as the "logic" behind trying to sunder a spellcaster's spellbook... it just reeks of GM meta-gamingand class punishing.

This is nothing like sundering spellbooks.

Sundering a spellbook inconveniences the caster tomorrow and makes him angry at you.

Killing a caster makes the caster dead.

An angry caster is just about the most dangerous mortal thread for a given CR. A dead caster is no threat at all.

The former is tactically stupid in character. The latter is tactically smart in character.


Atarlost wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
I'm sorry but this thread makes about as much sense as the "logic" behind trying to sunder a spellcaster's spellbook... it just reeks of GM meta-gamingand class punishing.

This is nothing like sundering spellbooks.

Sundering a spellbook inconveniences the caster tomorrow and makes him angry at you.

Killing a caster makes the caster dead.

An angry caster is just about the most dangerous mortal thread for a given CR. A dead caster is no threat at all.

The former is tactically stupid in character. The latter is tactically smart in character.

Asuming you can target the target with impunity. I mean, If you can then go for it, but asumming that is the smart thing to do always have little credibility.

Dark Archive

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Intelligent monsters might want to hit the Bard first.

PC round 1, the Barbarian charges you, that guy in the starry robe disappears somewhere, Robin Hood ducks to the side and starts pinging arrows, but there's a dude standing at the back wearing a big floppy hat with a feather in it, singing some crazy song about valour (admittedly he has a very good voice).

I'd get that guy.


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Opponents should try this, but it's not always possible.

The last encounter I ran, a PC healer was keeping the PCs up despite the heavy damage they were taking. The attackers were fanatics who hate divine casters of his religion and wanted him dead, even if it wasn't good strategy, although in this case it was... but the battle took place in very cramped confines and there was no way past the defending PCs beyond overbearing (which they failed at).

Of course, the attackers were (deliberately, part of the plot) dunces. They were all knights with not even a javelin among them. Still, the PCs were about this close to being beaten.

Had the attackers been an adventuring party instead, with ranged attacks and decent tactics, the PCs would have lost. Target the healer with some direct damage spells or arrows and he's either dead or healing himself. The PCs should be facing a competent adventuring party in about two sessions. Let's hope the level-up helps them.

I figure opponents with Intelligence scores of 8 or higher would automatically know to target casters first. Lesser intelligent opponents, such as trolls, might not realize this until the casters mess them up a bit. Creatures with animal intelligence would probably run away, and indeed are unlikely to attack a group of people. (In my campaign, whenever low-intellect creatures attack the PCs, they always try to go after someone who isn't wearing a layer of completely inedible metal armor, which just so happens to mean they're trying to target the squishies.)

I think taking AoS to go after the squishies makes sense, especially if the attackers have good morale or a commander shouts that kind of order. Everything you do in combat is risky, and I think the risk of being gutted by that fighter's axe might be less than the risk of being mind-controlled or otherwise crippled by the wizard. But PCs are usually too smart to make this easy. Even in the middle of an open field (monsters hid in the tall grass?) the wizard often has enough warning to use a good defensive spell or two to evade martial attackers.


Nicos wrote:
Asuming you can target the target with impunity. I mean, If you can then go for it, but asumming that is the smart thing to do always have little credibility.

If the caster is visible you generally can. Cover's +4 AC, but the caster isn't wearing armor and AC is a case of go big or go home so it's not really relevant. Archers should always at least probe for fickle winds and casters should always hit their opposite if they can localize him unless they have no non-will offensive magic.

A large enough melee line can take long enough to go around to be an obstacle, but very few games have enough PCs to form such a line without relying on multi-summons, which are going to amount to a speedbump. AoOs aren't a serious mobility threat unless backed by a trip maneuver focus, and that's ineffective against quadrupeds and big monsters and completely useless against fliers. In damage terms AoOs are generally minor past low levels. One AoO from every combatant in the party is worth it if taking them lets you get the caster before he can cast haste so a less than solid line isn't a deterrent to adversaries who know in general terms what casters are capable of.


Atarlost wrote:
One AoO from every combatant in the party is worth it if taking them lets you get the caster before he can cast haste so a less than solid line isn't a deterrent to adversaries who know in general terms what casters are capable of.

perhaps it is worth for the enemy groupa s awhole, for the guy that will just die isn ot a good choise. And it is not like most enemies have the tools to kill/disable the spellcaster in one movement.

Besides, for the caster to be the biggest threat they have to be optimized. THere a re alot of things an optimized high level martial can do in an AoO that just ruin the enemy life.

Sovereign Court

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If you're a CR-appropriate monster and you run into the PCs, the smart thing to do is not to attack the caster. The smart thing to do is to run away as fast as you can because they're going to kill you using only about 25% of their daily resources. You're totally outclassed.

It's even worse if you're one of a band of monsters, because probably you're all relying on being a tough group to challenge the PCs. But they are going to focus-fire and kill you.

If you have no real chance of winning, running the gauntlet of martials to get to the caster really isn't a sane tactic. That's sacrificing your life on the off chance that it'll help a monster later that day because the party was more damaged. You aren't going to survive it.

Sovereign Court

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Godwyn wrote:
Geek the mage first. Its a saying for a reason.

Yeah, that's in Shadowrun, were they talk about caster/martial disparity as if it was a problem that is only happening in their game :P

Liberty's Edge

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DominusMegadeus wrote:
Of course they fear death, but we're talking degrees of fear here. No one wants to die... until a caster is done with you. Then you're begging for it. Beyond all the horrible things a PC caster can do if they feel sadistic enough, most people have heard rumors and legends about casters in-universe. Horrible experiments, anything involving dominate/charm spells, polymorphing or fleshwarping, these people bind demons for god's sake! They could literally show you Hell itself in fact, and the devils certainly won't mercy-kill you.

If you're powerful enough that you're fighting 13th level spellcasters, odds are you can take most Devils...which means you can probably make them mercy kill you...or recruit them to your side, of course. Polymorph is a bit more of a problem...but in most ways being turned into a toad isn't that much scarier than death. Fleshwarping is...but that's if they take you alive, which is always tricky.

And besides, people in a fight usually aren't worried about what the artillery can do to them enough to ignore the guy currently trying to kill them with a sword...and even in real life, artillery has always had some serious potential to leave you begging for death in a few different ways. The probably also won't ignore protecting their own back-line of ranged or caster types from the huge guy with a sword in front of them.

Now, the enemy's artillery and other ranged options are indeed very likely to target any casters first and foremost...but the front-line, who'd need to eat attacks of opportunity and leave their own back-line undefended? Nah.

Now, if the enemy don't have a back-line, some could charge the mage in the back of the PCs, eating attacks of opportunity...but really, tactically, focusing fire is the way to go and focusing it on the guy in the front makes sense. Four Orcs are gonna be pretty sure they can take down a guy or two in one round, leaving the spellcaster only a very little time to act before they get to him. Better that than ignoring the melee guy and all going for him...some might well not even survive to get there, and even if they do and kill him, that still leaves them getting charged from behind by the guy who's probably already wounded them, plus any help he has. Being surrounded is not a great strategy.

Also...people don't always make tactically optimal choices. I've had a host off very smart players ignore the Bard buffing their enemies for several rounds while they took out the more obvious threats, despite that not being the best option tactically.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

If you're a CR-appropriate monster and you run into the PCs, the smart thing to do is not to attack the caster. The smart thing to do is to run away as fast as you can because they're going to kill you using only about 25% of their daily resources. You're totally outclassed.

It's even worse if you're one of a band of monsters, because probably you're all relying on being a tough group to challenge the PCs. But they are going to focus-fire and kill you.

If you have no real chance of winning, running the gauntlet of martials to get to the caster really isn't a sane tactic. That's sacrificing your life on the off chance that it'll help a monster later that day because the party was more damaged. You aren't going to survive it.

What if you're the monster-later-in-the-day though. Hordes have sacrificed themselves so you could TPk these guys.


Nicos wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
One AoO from every combatant in the party is worth it if taking them lets you get the caster before he can cast haste so a less than solid line isn't a deterrent to adversaries who know in general terms what casters are capable of.

perhaps it is worth for the enemy groupa s awhole, for the guy that will just die isn ot a good choise. And it is not like most enemies have the tools to kill/disable the spellcaster in one movement.

Besides, for the caster to be the biggest threat they have to be optimized. THere a re alot of things an optimized high level martial can do in an AoO that just ruin the enemy life.

There are two cases. Either the party is facing a single NPC or a group of them.

A single NPC should not be involving itself in a fight with the PCs unless it believes it can take them all on. Taking the force multipliers (ie. casters) or SoD threats (ie. casters) out first is always his best move unless a cramped dungeon or lack of visibility makes this impossible.

A group of NPCs should also not be involving themselves in a fight with the PCs unless they believe they will emerge victorious. Two or three opponents hitting the caster probably will drop him in a round if they have any business in the fight in the first place. It is, again, always best to eliminate force multipliers first, though if they knew they were up against a pure SoD or blasty caster with no force multiplier or domination capabilities at all a group might not prioritize him.

The last thing most NPCs should do is move into melee combat with melee opponents. That's trading a single attack against a full attack. Only pouncers and supercharger cavaliers should even consider attacking a melee line that isn't weak summoned mooks. Eating movement AoOs is better than staying in position to be full attacked. Hitting the back line is better than standing around while they bombard you.


Atarlost wrote:


A group of NPCs should also not be involving themselves in a fight with the PCs unless they believe they will emerge victorious. Two or three opponents hitting the caster probably will drop him in a round if they have any business in the fight in the first place. It is, again, always best to eliminate force multipliers first, though if they knew they were up against a pure SoD or blasty caster with no force multiplier or domination capabilities at all a group might not prioritize him.

Are we talking about going for the caster even if that means eating an AoO? because trading three of your group to take down one of the other group does not sound smart unless your number are high enough. If they are strong enough to kill a caster that way, then losig them is big hit for the enemy group.


Nicos wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


A group of NPCs should also not be involving themselves in a fight with the PCs unless they believe they will emerge victorious. Two or three opponents hitting the caster probably will drop him in a round if they have any business in the fight in the first place. It is, again, always best to eliminate force multipliers first, though if they knew they were up against a pure SoD or blasty caster with no force multiplier or domination capabilities at all a group might not prioritize him.

Are we talking about going for the caster even if that means eating an AoO? because trading three of your group to take down one of the other group does not sound smart unless your number are high enough. If they are strong enough to kill a caster that way, then losig them is big hit for the enemy group.

There is nothing wrong with eating an AoO, I get amazed at the worry some people have about it. Your opponent has to seriously outclass you* if an AoO is going to put you out of a fight. The problem is not taking an AoO to make the attack, it is leaving yourself in a position to eat a full-attack.

*well not at the first few levels when one lucky hit can take out anyone, as I discovered when a @#$% level 1 commoner with a scythe crit for 32 points.

Sovereign Court

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This strategy sounds like the monsters don't actually care if they survive, just as long as Team Monster gets to kill some PCs. They'll gladly charge through the gauntlet of AoO-ing martials just on the off chance they survive to reach the wizard at the rear. Most of them die in the process.

Meanwhile, the GM piously claims that the monsters are just doing what's smart. That's not true though; they're doing what's good for the boss of the monsters (who has more sacrificial minions available), not what's good for the individual monsters.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

This strategy sounds like the monsters don't actually care if they survive, just as long as Team Monster gets to kill some PCs. They'll gladly charge through the gauntlet of AoO-ing martials just on the off chance they survive to reach the wizard at the rear. Most of them die in the process.

Meanwhile, the GM piously claims that the monsters are just doing what's smart. That's not true though; they're doing what's good for the boss of the monsters (who has more sacrificial minions available), not what's good for the individual monsters.

Which is why I said this thread stinks of GM meta-gaming. This is exactly like going after a caster's spellbook in combat. Yes, a wizard is DEFINETELY weakened without his spellbook, but in combat he is still a threat and still capable of destroying you. While it spells a win for team monster (spellcaster taken out in the long run) that individual monster was ran more like a droid than a person...


Ascalaphus wrote:

This strategy sounds like the monsters don't actually care if they survive, just as long as Team Monster gets to kill some PCs. They'll gladly charge through the gauntlet of AoO-ing martials just on the off chance they survive to reach the wizard at the rear. Most of them die in the process.

Meanwhile, the GM piously claims that the monsters are just doing what's smart. That's not true though; they're doing what's good for the boss of the monsters (who has more sacrificial minions available), not what's good for the individual monsters.

Unless the party is full of people who have combat reflexes, great positioning and strange tricks, the most a monster is going to eat is one AoO per party member, which is frequently a better choice than letting a caster get off a spell. And once monster A has run the gauntlet partway feasting on some of the AoOs then monster B can run the first part of the gauntlet safely because all the AoOs have been used up.

The Exchange

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You know, I once lost a truly formidable fighter to my simpleminded assumption that "all the AoOs have been used up."

Thelemic_Noun wrote:

...with the exception of Int 1-2 creatures that don't know any better, why aren't the casters (especially arcane casters) the very first target? (Note that this doesn't apply when obvious strategic concerns and/or an irrational hatred of some other character or type of hero make them a lower priority).

Why don't enemies just eat the attack of opportunity...

In general, as soon as a PC in one of my games casts any spell - even a harmless cantrip - he goes up several notches on the threat level. However, that doesn't mean Qualifying Enemies (meaning Int 3+, no special irrational rages) immediately swarm that foe en masse unless he's foolishly wandered away from his party.

Team-oriented monsters know that combat is full of dirty tricks and nasty possibilities. They know that charging the caster might work - maybe the guy has no active defense spells and you can spread him like butter. But there are a lot of other factors:

1. What if the guy's expecting this? There are so many defensive spells that it's impossible to predict them all.

2. And if he does survive, you're grouping yourself nicely for a cone or burst spell.

3. To say nothing of the possibility that one of the 'non-casters' you ran past might have a very dirty surprise (Stand Still, sneak attack, Scorpion Strike, etc. etc. etc.) waiting for you.

4. And above all, there might be more than one caster. Kind of a shame to pulp a 4th-level wizard only to discover that his invisible 13th-level mentor was holding an action...

In general, when confronted with a caster, most of my Qualifying Enemies will attempt a probing attack or two, but they're usually also interested in 'locking down' each enemy to keep from being outflanked, in cutting off (or securing) escape routes, etc. By all means make it a priority, but if your QEs always predictably rush right at the first guy to cast a spell, your players are going to learn how to use that to their advantage ("I hold an action to cast hungry pit.")

Sovereign Court

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cnetarian wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

This strategy sounds like the monsters don't actually care if they survive, just as long as Team Monster gets to kill some PCs. They'll gladly charge through the gauntlet of AoO-ing martials just on the off chance they survive to reach the wizard at the rear. Most of them die in the process.

Meanwhile, the GM piously claims that the monsters are just doing what's smart. That's not true though; they're doing what's good for the boss of the monsters (who has more sacrificial minions available), not what's good for the individual monsters.

Unless the party is full of people who have combat reflexes, great positioning and strange tricks, the most a monster is going to eat is one AoO per party member, which is frequently a better choice than letting a caster get off a spell. And once monster A has run the gauntlet partway feasting on some of the AoOs then monster B can run the first part of the gauntlet safely because all the AoOs have been used up.

So from the monster's perspective, it's okay that the first one is just going to get killed running in, hoping that the second one can kill the wizard with one hit? Because if you don't, you've just surrounded yourself with PCs about to engage in a full attack.

These tactics smell like a suicide bomber trying to do the most damage, not monsters being smart and caring about their own survival.


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Ascalaphus wrote:


So from the monster's perspective, it's okay that the first one is just going to get killed running in, hoping that the second one can kill the wizard with one hit? Because if you don't, you've just surrounded yourself with PCs about to engage in a full attack.

These tactics smell like a suicide bomber trying to do the most damage, not monsters being smart and caring about their own survival.

Happens everyday in war.

And when your society preaches brutal violence and honorable death endlessly it happens all the time.


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Atarlost wrote:
A dead caster is no threat at all.

You're clearly not familiar with clone and contingent resurrections then.


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Monsters intelligent enough to spot a caster are intelligent enough to run away if they think that "the horrors of hell" are about to be unleashed on them. The argument is that their fear of things other than death is so great that they will risk death to... fight the being who can inflict the horrors? They would just run away if they were that afraid.

Monsters are, in general, not incredibly experienced at fighting things with the lethality of an average PC party. Also, monsters and villains, like almost all evil beings, are driven by personal gain and self-sacrifice for the betterment of "the team" isn't at all logical. In the case of animals defending their homes and young, the closest threat to the home is the focal point.

On the uncommon occasion you run into a group of intelligent beings who are willing to sacrifice themselves for victory and recognize the caster as being undenaibly more deadly than the barbarian with a two-handed sword in front of them, and not being too scared to fight that caster even while thinking it is so more deadly that the guy about to cleave them in two... sure, go for the caster first.

Edit: Came across as a bit dogmatic. I mean in general. Obviously doing in sometimes would be fine, but there's no reason to think it is the logical conclusion for a majority of enemies.


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anlashok wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
A dead caster is no threat at all.
You're clearly not familiar with clone and contingent resurrections then.

But in that case, they are not really dead!

Liches, OTOH...


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I've actually had this happen. Half the bad dudes came to target my witch passing up like 3 dudes to get to me. I took care of them but I never went back to that table.

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