Brawler---Shield Champion Arch-type Question


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

While reading this arch-type I see that he can toss his shield and that it is considered a weapon. If I want to add magic to it and make it a +1 weapon then all I have to do is pay 2000 gold for that but can't I also add +1 shield bonus and pay the enhancement cost under armors the +1 shield magic enhancement? So what I'm basically asking is can't a shield have both a weapon and shield bonus from the back of the core book added to it and pay each as if it were enchanting two different items since one enchantment is for shield to help your shield bonus while other is for weapon bonus? I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right. Or does the +5 shield bonus enhancement also help if used as a weapon?


poundpuppy30 wrote:
So what I'm basically asking is can't a shield have both a weapon and shield bonus from the back of the core book added to it and pay each as if it were enchanting two different items since one enchantment is for shield to help your shield bonus while other is for weapon bonus?

The rules are generally interpreted to require this. Offensive and defensive enhancements are normally separated.

Quote:
I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right. Or does the +5 shield bonus enhancement also help if used as a weapon?

There is a Shield Master feat which allows you to use the defensive shield bonuses as offensive bonuses.

PRD wrote:

Shield Master (Combat)

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.

As written, this allows you to get the same benefit if you throw it.


The problem is of course the level 11 requirement. So unless you start at high level it is going to be harsh while you wait.


Well. easy thing to do
Shield itself is enchanted as per defenssive
then you get shield spikes and enchant those seperately as a weapon.

You make the defensive pure +5, and then have the spikes mostly extra effects (wounding, fire, lighting, what have you) so when you get to lv 11, you can use that Shield master feat to get +5 to hit with all the extra stuff on the spikes. and soonish you could use your unarmed strike damage as well.

but even prior to that I think this is a good way to go, because it'll be somewhat cheaper early on to enchant two separate things rather than one item at higher +#.


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Acquire a +1 bashing light quickdraw throwing shield (4,403 gp or 4,409 gp, depending on if it's wood or steel) by 5th-6th level; bashing not only lets you treat the shield as if it had a +1 weapon enhancement bonus, but also increases the damage as if it were two size categories larger (as opposed to one with shield spikes). Improve the defensive enhancement bonus and add +1 distance ki focus as weapon enhancements as you level. Because a shield champion uses their full unarmed attack damage with a shield at 12th level (and unarmed attack damage at level -4 from Close Weapon Mastery at 5th), you don't really need shield spikes. Also, try to obtain a lesser belt of mighty hurling (+2 enhancement bonus to Str, use Str instead of Dex as a bonus on thrown weapon attack rolls, and thrown weapons gain +10 ft to their range increments).

As an example:

Half-orc (City-Raised, Sacred Tattoo) brawler (mutagenic mauler, shield champion)/bloodrager (blood conduit) 1
Favored Class: Brawler (+1/4 level to brawler level to determine unarmed damage)
16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha (15-point buy; racial +2 to Str)
17 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha (20-point buy; racial +2 to Str)
18 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha (25-point buy; racial +2 to Str)
Brw 1 - Improved Shield Bash (use a whip to trip at 15 ft reach and bash with a large shield if they get close)
Blr 1 - Improved Trip* (bloodrage for more Str)
Brw 2 - Dragon Style*, Quick Draw (wait for it...)
Brw 4 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Throwing Shield; for the 20 ft vs. 10 ft range increment)
Brw 5 - Shield Slam* (switch to a light quickdraw throwing shield to throw, catch the returning shield, and don/ready it without affecting action economy; a normal throwing shield requires a move action to don/ready for the AC bonus)
Brw 6 - Shield Focus (to qualify for the bonus Greater Shield Focus feat at Brw 9; otherwise, take something else)
Brw 8 - Stunning Fist, Dragon Ferocity*
Brw 9 - Greater Shield Focus*
Brw 10 - Elemental Fist (+3d6 elemental damage to one attack per round, up to brawler level times per day); take Preserve Organs as the alchemist discovery
Brw 11 - Pummeling Style* (use with Elemental Fist), Shield Master* (hopefully you've invested in a +4 bashing/+1 distance ki focus light quickdraw throwing shield by this point...)
Brw 12 - Dragon Roar (area effect attacks are useful)
Brw 14 - Combat Style Master (to switch between Dragon Style during the charge movement and...), Pummeling Charge* (when making the attack at the end of the charge)


That's a pretty neat build. I would be tempted to dip a lv in Swashbuckler for Swash finesse so I could use dex to hit on a shield with spikes on it. Though you'd have to enchant it with agile.
but that's just me prefering dex over str in general.

Grand Lodge

A Shield doesn't need to be Spiked to enchant it as a weapon.

A shield is a weapon.

The weapon enchantments are separate, from the shield enchantments.

So, a +1 Heavy Steel Shield, with a +1 Weapon enchantment, would cost you 3170gp.


I didn't realize that, how neat. I thought you couldn't enchant weapon-ness without the spikes.
I'll probably still snag em, Without the spikes it's a bludgeon, with the spikes it's piercing. I kinda enjoy piercing even if it's not the best damage type.

Grand Lodge

Spikes do more damage.

Also, you can have shield spikes of a different material, than the shield.

So, you can have a Darkwood Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.

Those are some of the reasons you might prefer spikes.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Spikes do more damage.

Also, you can have shield spikes of a different material, than the shield.

So, you can have a Darkwood Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.

Those are some of the reasons you might prefer spikes.

Those are indeed good reasons to follow up my preference haha. I only knew about the materials differences. better than that spike shooting shield in any case.


Thanks to close weapon mastery you don't need bashing, as your damage is equal to your hth damage at class level -4. At 5th level, your shield does 1d6. At 8th, it does 1d8. At 12th, for shield companion, the damage becomes your base hth, so the damage goes to 2d6.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm pretty confused about what happens if you don't meet the prerequisites for the bonus feats. Do you just not get them until you meet the prerequisites, or do you miss out entirely?

It doesn't seem like stellar archetype design to force meeting prerequisites just to use those abilities. Very few bonus feats have the "must meet prerequisites" language.

The Exchange

You're not the first to ask that Mergy. For many it's not a big deal but then you hit the Two-weapon fighting requirement and it all gets very silly.

FAQ requested.


Generally it's better to start a new thread for FAQ requests than it is to FAQ something buried in an already existing thread.

The Exchange

I've already labeled the first post in about 4 different threads with FAQ requests. Don't worry, it's well and truly been pointed out.

Dark Archive

@Dragonchess Kudos for using monk stuff nobody uses. I love a lot of the feats you tossed on that build. However, I don't see the appeal of QuickDraw over equipment trick: shield. It just does so much more I particularly with martial flexibility. Since you picked a throwing shield, you can don it and remove it as a free action. It's quickdraw+.

Also, I assume that the Bashing property is used because your shield damage becomes unarmed damage and between FCB going toward increasing unarmed damage and bashing pushing the dice two size categories higher, you end up dealing really large damage dice for the shield. It appears to be whatever is a size category increase up from 3d6 (1d10 base bumped to 3d6 and then.....).

Neat. It is a shame my ranger build cannot get that.

Silver Crusade

So the shields enhancement bonus can't be added to hit/damage unless you have Shield Mastery feat which makes me wonder how much damage a shield champion can really do in a round. Also to catch a shield you need two hands free right or can you catch it with one hand?

Silver Crusade

Wow just found out by level 11 a shield champion can do around 200 damage per round if he hits all 8 times.

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