Reasonable Spell nerfs!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Anzyr wrote:
Undone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Casters are likely to have the highest saves (outside of Superstition Barbarians and even then Oracles will crush everything else), because they have the buffing power to raise them.

This alone makes me chuckle.

The highest saves i've seen are barbarians, zen archers, and paladins. Of which only 1 has spells and it's not exactly at a high rate of progression.

Will saves are not the only saves.

I'm not talking about just Will Saves, I mean saves in general. Spells can do a lot of bring up all your saves (and Otherwordly Kimono is a sweet sweet +6 Resistance). Oracles are full casters and are going to have the highest saves bar none. Even human FCB Superstition can't beat that.

And how do you figure that? Oh wait let me guess divine protection that feat which is banned almost as hard as sacred geometry, Leadership, and dazing spell as well as not being allowed in PFS?

Also +6 is 1 more than +5 from a cloak and the base on kimono is +4.


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Divine Protection is perfectly legal and is not nearly on the same level as any of the other feats you mentioned. Expecting it to be banned is kind of laughable. Though even just Bestow Grace of the Champion is enough on it's own. +17 to all your saves is just fantastic. More of course once you add in all the other buff spells. I do not play PFS and thus care little about its houserules and as this is not a PFS discussion I don't intend to entertain them.


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I tried to tell you. I KNEW you completed the Summon Anzyr incantation, but you didn't listen. Well what happens next is on your head this time. And I better not get caught up in the blast dammit.


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Undone wrote:


I'd just like to point out that the overwhelming majority of gameplay (85% or something according to Piazo) occurs at level 7 or less. Before level 7 casters are a LIABILITY not over powered. Less than 1% of all gameplay occurs at levels casters are truly strong (11+). The truth is that all characters have a power curve. What the OP want's is for everyone to have the same power curve except wizards should just be worse at every level.

Fighters (well ok, not fighters but fighter types like barbarians and slayers) are 10x as strong as a wizard between 1-4. They're merely 2x stronger at levels 5-6. At 7-8 they're markedly stronger especially if they are a ranger/pally/BR but not overwhelmingly so. It's not till 9th that they're equal.

Wizards scale dramatically from square 1. Fighter types scale less hard but they start at square 5-6.

For the overwhelming majority of normal games Casters are weaker than marshals. The problem is people remember the one encounter that the wizard won with a black tentacles, or a disintegrate but they forget the 20,000 damage the archer did while raiding the tower because its not flashy.

Hold on now. Casters are not a liability at those levels, and they definitely start to hold their own, even in unoptimized groups by level 5. A level 8(CR 7) wizard can be a decent boss fight for a level 4 party. A level 8(CR 7) fighter, not so much.

Even at low levels I was putting enemies to sleep with sleep and using colorspray to end encounters. I was also using enlarge person to buff the main melee guy in the party. I had to be smart and stay out of the front lines for the most part, which is why I rarely used color spray. Other than that I had no problem, and I have seen the same thing while watching other people play. By the time haste comes online everything is gravy. Now of course wizards and sorcerers are not the only full casters.
The witch does well from level 1. So does the druid, cleric, and oracle.

If you want to include the bard and inquisitor they are versatile even at low levels and can contribute well.

If casters are struggling I think most people here will chalk that up to playstyle, not as a "caster issue".


I'd actually even go as far as to vote Druid or Summoner level 1 MVP.


Anzyr wrote:
I'd actually even go as far as to vote Druid or Summoner level 1 MVP.

I'd go for Heavens Oracle, personally. Druid spell list is mediocre and summoner has partial casting.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Anzyr wrote:
Divine Protection is perfectly legal and is not nearly on the same level as any of the other feats you mentioned. Expecting it to be banned is kind of laughable. Though even just Bestow Grace of the Champion is enough on it's own. +17 to all your saves is just fantastic. More of course once you add in all the other buff spells. I do not play PFS and thus care little about its houserules and as this is not a PFS discussion I don't intend to entertain them.

Bestow Grace of the Champion is a spell many people complain about as well.

It seems to me that if class X has the best saves in the game because of a feat/spell, then said feat/spell is kind of a big deal.

As to the awesome invincibility of color spray, my Heavens Shaman in Iron Gods just hit level 2 and I haven't even had the chance to use it once.

Spoiler:
Everything has been mindless, undead, constructs, missing eyes, or willing to talk. The one combat where it could have come in handy, the monsters were too spread out to target effectively, and they had spell resistance anyway.

In PFS, I've seen color spray hand the PCs some real easy victories, sure enough, but I've also seen casters splat real hard when a goon rolls lucky on a save, and then advances up on the now-in-front squishy.

Don't get me wrong, it's a damn good spell, but like all theorycrafting, it doesn't always fare as well under battlefield conditions.


Undone wrote:


I'd just like to point out that the overwhelming majority of gameplay (85% or something according to Piazo) occurs at level 7 or less. Before level 7 casters are a LIABILITY not over powered. Less than 1% of all gameplay occurs at levels casters are truly strong (11+). The truth is that all characters have a power curve. What the OP want's is for everyone to have the same power curve except wizards should just be worse at every level.

Fighters (well ok, not fighters but fighter types like barbarians and slayers) are 10x as strong as a wizard between 1-4. They're merely 2x stronger at levels 5-6. At 7-8 they're markedly stronger especially if they are a ranger/pally/BR but not overwhelmingly so. It's not till 9th that they're equal.

I agree with you that martials and casters are much closer at low levels and that people should pay attention to levels 1-6 character strength first and foremost when building their characters.

However, it's absurd to say barbarian/slayers are 10x as strong as wizards at l1-4. Wizards have sleep and color spray at level 1-2. At level 3-4 they have glitterdust and web. All those spells single-handedly end encounters, to say nothing of their other tricks. Wizards aren't even the strongest casters at low levels. Heavens Oracles Summoners, Sylvan Sorcerers, Occultist Arcanists, Druids, Witches, Clerics, with the right domains all have serious firepower.


Tranquilo wrote:
Wizards have sleep and color spray at level 1-2. At level 3-4 they have glitterdust and web. All those spells single-handedly end encounters, to say nothing of their other tricks.

That's an exaggeration. (Not as much of an exaggeration as 'barbarians are 10x as strong as a wizard at levels 1-4', but still...) Sleep might end an encounter, but takes a full round to cast, and enemies who are still awake can awaken an ally with a standard action. Color Spray might end an encounter, but it requires the enemies to all be close together and there's no allies in the way and they all fail their saves because if they don't they can probably kill you. Glitterdust blinds enemies, which makes them easier to beat, but they get a new save every round. Web hampers enemy movement, but on its own it's not going to defeat anyone permanently. (Web plus competent martials is very effective, but then the wizard can't claim to have ended the encounter single-handed.)


Bestow grace of the champion isn't the issue (high level spell, lawful good spell, lawful good recepient, extremely short duration), bestow grace can be a problem.


leo1925 wrote:
Bestow grace of the champion isn't the issue (high level spell, lawful good spell, lawful good recepient, extremely short duration), bestow grace can be a problem.

My Lore Oracle loves his wand of bestow grace. Best investment ever.


Anzyr wrote:


Casters are only weaker then Martials "in normal games" if you define "normal games" as "games where the average system mastery is below average". At level 1, a Two-handed Fighter using Power Attack can kill one guy. A caster using color spray can end an entire encounter. Also at low levels, will saves tend to be very low for enemy groups, making the casters success more likely then the odds that a Fighter hits. Casters do have...

Ok, just to poke some holes...

That first level wizard/sorc casting Color Spray is within 15' of the enemy and can only do that 1-3 times per day give or take. So you are talking about a single spell expending an enormous portion of resources for the day.

Also, in order to be effective you need a cluster of enemies in a small area, which you are now standing effectively right now to and in front of your group. Thus, if the enemies fail their save, which if you are targeting a cluster, some are likely to do, you have a good chance of immediate death.

This is one of the problems. People talking about caster power talk as though a caster has nigh unlimited spells, always has the proper spell available, and is able to survive long enough to deploy it and escape. That is a hell of a lot of assumptions.

Meanwhile, in your above example the fighter/ranger is killing one or two enemies a round pretty much every round with a fraction of the risk.


Bave wrote:
Anzyr wrote:


Casters are only weaker then Martials "in normal games" if you define "normal games" as "games where the average system mastery is below average". At level 1, a Two-handed Fighter using Power Attack can kill one guy. A caster using color spray can end an entire encounter. Also at low levels, will saves tend to be very low for enemy groups, making the casters success more likely then the odds that a Fighter hits. Casters do have...

Ok, just to poke some holes...

That first level wizard/sorc casting Color Spray is within 15' of the enemy and can only do that 1-3 times per day give or take. So you are talking about a single spell expending an enormous portion of resources for the day.

Also, in order to be effective you need a cluster of enemies in a small area, which you are now standing effectively right now to and in front of your group. Thus, if the enemies fail their save, which if you are targeting a cluster, some are likely to do, you have a good chance of immediate death.

This is one of the problems. People talking about caster power talk as though a caster has nigh unlimited spells, always has the proper spell available, and is able to survive long enough to deploy it and escape. That is a hell of a lot of assumptions.

Meanwhile, in your above example the fighter/ranger is killing one or two enemies a round pretty much every round with a fraction of the risk.

Sorry, but I check my arguments for holes.

It's very unlikely that enemies will not fail their save, because if you are focused on it you should easily have at least a DC 16 Color Spray. If you are extremely focused (say Heavens Oracle) you will have a Persistent Color Spray. Most monster in the range of CR 1-3 are lucky to have even +1 to Will Save. Therefore, the odds of the monster failing the will save are higher then the Fighter/RAnger hitting them.

Also the difference between HP of a Fighter and a Wizard at level 1 is probably only 2-4 points. And their AC is probably only 1-2 numbers apart as well (unless Fighter focuses on it). This means that the risk is pretty much the same regardless of which class it is. It's just that one of those classes can end the encounter (with higher odds of success), the other might end just one enemy (with lower odds of success). Remember level 1 is rocket tag (if that CR 1/3 Orc crits you are going to die, promise) so the actual class chassis matters very little here (besides the casters in the following sentence). And if we're talking about all casters (which we are) Druid and Summoner brought a disposable tank. That's the real way to have a fraction of risk to yourself.

Finally, yes casters around level 5 should only be running out of spells rarely. At level 9 if you run out of spells, you have made a mistake. While it is impossible to always prepare the *perfect* spell for an encounter, you should always be able to prepare spells that are *good* for an encounter. Take Color Spray. If you prepare only Color Sprays... you've made a mistake. But if you mix in some Snowballs and Greases, now suddenly there's a range of saves (Will/Ref/Fort) and conditions you can inflict.


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Anzyr wrote:


Sorry, but I check my arguments for holes.

It's very unlikely that enemies will not fail their save, because if you are focused on it you should easily have at least a DC 16 Color Spray. If you are extremely focused (say Heavens Oracle) you will have a Persistent Color Spray. Most monster in the range of CR 1-3 are lucky to have even +1 to Will Save. Therefore, the odds of the monster failing the will save are higher then the Fighter/RAnger hitting them.

Also the difference between HP of a Fighter and a Wizard at level 1 is probably only 2-4 points. And their AC is...

1) I can't remember anyone admitting their argument is riddled with holes, so of course you can't see them.

2) You are assuming that someone builds a caster around a 1st level spell? Going to throw a feat into Spell Focus just for that first level feat into an otherwise sub-optimal school for it, by and large?

3) Then, your theory is that you are going to deal with someone who is taking one of the most powerful and twinkie routes of all time, Heavens Oracle, to make it work more?

Seems like you are making a lot of assumptions for that build that is only expected to play one game... ever... with that character and only use one spell. Sure, it works for your example to a degree but isn't particularly realistic.

Further, your build is going to run around with 4-5 of these a day, assuming nothing else is memorized and optimized in that direction and foresaking everything else. After those 4-5 rounds, you are largely a commoner with a worse ac and lower hitpoints.

Now, to your math. Assume you have a more realistic 15 DC on your Color Spray. Assume your enemy is a +1 will save. Easy peasy, 70% fail rate. So sure, odds are you will beat that enemy. However, in order to make good use of a color spray you have to be targetting multiple targets, usually 3 seems to be the ideal minimum. Even if you are targetting two, odds are you are going to have one pass. With three you are almost certainly going to have one pass, and a decent chance of two passing. Your 12-13AC having wizard is going to now have to deal with those bad guys who are a bit miffed to say the least.

Conclusion, your assessment is crazy. You act as though your first level wizard is going to have an 18-20 in INT as well as a 14-16 in Dex and Con, or devote all their resources to color spray and it never targetting more than one monster who never succeeds the save. All it takes is one made saving through and your 6-8HP having wizard is dead.

That 1st level barbarian orc with the great axe? What are his odds of killing you with one swing... pretty good as well.


I'm assuming that a Heavens Oracle will be built around Color Spray, yes. Because it's the spell that benefits the most from Awesome Display and is the easiest to combine with metamagic reducing traits to make Persistent. It also interacts favorably with Lesser Wands of Threnodic spell which is useful as now previously immune undead are susceptible to is.

Also if you think a DC 16 is "focusing on a particular spell" you are flat out mistaken. A caster should be investing a 20 into their primary casting stat, since unlike martial types, caster only need one stat since virtually all their power scales off it. With a spell level of 1 and a primary casting score bonus of +5 *ALL* spells cast by the level 1 caster are at DC 16. A caster that is focused on a particular branch of magic (Conjuration for example) can take Spell Focus for a DC 17 at level 1. And lets not mention Dreamspeaker Elves with Honeyed Words trait and Ability Focus (Slumber) and their level 1 DC 19 Slumber Hex. Or Kitsune Sorcerers with Spell Focus (Enchantment) and their DC 18 Enchantments (or DC 20 Compulsion spells if they are Fey Bloodline).

As you note even at DC 15 that is a 70% failure rate. However, even arcane casters can easily have a 16 AC at level 1 with Mage Armor. Even assuming a 20 STR Fighter with Weapon Focus, at most that's a +7 to hit meaning the Fighter will fail to hit just slightly less then half the time. And that's the difference. The fighter is more likely to fail to hit the caster then the casters spell is to fail. The caster is thus going to be more successful at level 1 rocket tag.

A 20 INT, 14 CON & DEX Wizard isn't exactly hard to do even in 15 PB. In fact, it's incredibly easy. Considering you have 2 obvious dump stats (STR and CHA) and even WIS does not need to be very high given your good save (so you can drop it to 8). Contrast this with the Fighter who needs a 13 INT if he wants to take Combat Expertise (And thus all the feat chains locked behind it). The Fighter also needs WIS, unless he wants to really tank his save, in order to get that +1 Will save they'll need at least a 12. And of course they also need a 14 CON and a 14 DEX if they want to take advantage of Armor Training. Of Course they also want a 20 STR.

Because the caster only needs 1 stat, with DEX and CON being secondary, they are practically guaranteed to be at least equal to the Fighter in those stats, while being *better* in their main stat. The Fighter who invests in 20 STR now has to choose whether to dump his CHA and WIS to try and match the caster. Or instead dump INT, which locks the Fighter out of feats and reduces him to 1 Skill per level.

Finally, the Level 1 Orc Barbarian with a Greatax, is able to kill *any* class on a high roll at level 1. So this a wash, since again, the difference between a Casters hp and a martials hp is going to be at most 4.


Zhayne wrote:
Lyee wrote:
The second clearly isn't a nice idea for Pathfinder
Why not?

Because then you've turned a fantasy RPG suitable for all sorts of different types of play (in combat and out) into a mundane RPG + fantasy skirmish game. And that's a half-assed solution at best.


OK so my group has found the OMG color-spray trope to be completely false.
1) A 15ft cone is rather small
2) Even when it isn't, you don't want to hit allies
3) This puts the caster close to enemies at the few levels where concentration checks matter

That being said, casters completely dominate the game for any GM trying to run RAW or be intelligent with his/her monsters/NPCs. Pathfinder is not perfectly balanced. It's balanced enough that a GM only has to nudge it around to be balanced enough for his/her game. That nudging though is almost universally throwing in caster counters or throwing in monsters that require casters to disable it before the Heavies chop it to death.

You definitely need martial types, most bosses just cannot be taken down by any but the most bork'd caster builds. Most bosses are also either straight up immune to martials because of ungodly AC and defenses or they effortlessly avoid martial full attacks via utility. Both cases require the casters to handle the boss for most of the fight, then the martials come in to clean-up/take-glory. Where things start to break down is that casters can do without martials by replacing them via spells, but martials need casters and cannot ever come close to replacing them with any resource at their disposal. For example, I've been playing a magus. He has 22 strength and 23 int at lvl 13, his arcane point pool is 29. I rarely use spell combat or spell strike and I still surpass any fighter build I could try to make in terms of DPR/AC/HP via self buffs. Sure the Fighters I make could double stack with those buffs, but the party just doesn't have the resources in excess to buff to the extent that I can as a magus. Speaking of limited party resources, my magus in a non-mythic in a group with recuperation. Even with that the lowest my arcane pool has been since I brought in the character was 14.


Uh, most casters are capable of doing more then enough damage to end a fight if they want to. And without the Vital Strike chain or Pounce, thanks to the miracle to getting *two* spell per round past mid levels, the caster will even out damage those martials. Mind you this is pretty resource inefficient, but still very doable. More resource efficient ways of ending the fight are using your Save or Lose spells and then having Summons/animated minions do clean up.

Also, your Color Spray concerns are largely negated by the caster getting to shoot the Color Spray first. And since they can move and cast, they can position themselves optimally for it. And once they cast it concentration checks are no longer a concern. I agree the range is somewhat limited, but it is still good enough to take 2-3 people out at once easily.


I'm just going to quote myself for the most part

Anzyr wrote:
Uh, most casters are capable of doing more then enough damage to end a fight if they want to. And without the Vital Strike chain or Pounce, thanks to the miracle to getting *two* spell per round past mid levels, the caster will even out damage those martials. Mind you this is pretty resource inefficient, but still very doable. More resource efficient ways of ending the fight are using your Save or Lose spells and then having Summons/animated minions do clean up.

"Where things start to break down is that casters can do without martials by replacing them via spells, but martials need casters and cannot ever come close to replacing them with any resource at their disposal."

Anzyr wrote:
Also, your Color Spray concerns are largely negated by the caster getting to shoot the Color Spray first. And since they can move and cast, they can position themselves optimally for it. And once they cast it concentration checks are no longer a concern. I agree the range is somewhat limited, but it is still good enough to take 2-3 people out at once easily.

"OK so my group has found the OMG color-spray trope to be completely false.

1) A 15ft cone is rather small
2) Even when it isn't, you don't want to hit allies
3) This puts the caster close to enemies at the few levels where concentration checks matter"

If you aren't hitting the whole encounter with it, you just put yourself in range to get wrecked, and that is assuming your build is one of those enemies auto-fail bork'd builds. If it isn't then you have a good chance of one of the enemies laughing it off and wrecking your squishy face.


Simon Legrande wrote:

I like what 5e did with Wish.

If you use it for anything other than duplicating a lower-level spell, you take d10/spell level damage every time you cast another spell until you rest. Then your STR drops to 3 for 2d4 days. Then, there's a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again, ever.

Honestly, there are quite a few things sprinkled through the 5e spell lists that I believe take the power back down to a manageable level.

EDIT: JUST TO BE CLEAR, I'm not saying go play 5e. I'm simply saying it might be worth browsing the spells for some ideas.

What people most often fail to notice is that Wish comes already auto-nerfed and an already very rare spell to be cast. A single casting of it should, by itself, be the goal of a quest, which could make it, indeed, castable only once in a lifetime.

But who cares, 25,000 gp diamonds are available in every grocery, right?


I am glad to see discussion in my thread!

I will be back to updating this shortly, sorry for the delay.

I am still having problems with dominate person. As a concept the spell is extremely broken, and shortening the duration doesn't change it that much.

Instead of discussing how good colour spray is (It has been way too good for like 15 years), maybe discuss my nerf and whether it is reasonable?

EDIT: @ Astral Wanderer: For level 17 characters, finding a diamond like that is relatively trivial. One simple way is to plane shift to the city of brass, and find one there


Astral Wanderer wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:

I like what 5e did with Wish.

If you use it for anything other than duplicating a lower-level spell, you take d10/spell level damage every time you cast another spell until you rest. Then your STR drops to 3 for 2d4 days. Then, there's a 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again, ever.

Honestly, there are quite a few things sprinkled through the 5e spell lists that I believe take the power back down to a manageable level.

EDIT: JUST TO BE CLEAR, I'm not saying go play 5e. I'm simply saying it might be worth browsing the spells for some ideas.

What people most often fail to notice is that Wish comes already auto-nerfed and an already very rare spell to be cast. A single casting of it should, by itself, be the goal of a quest, which could make it, indeed, castable only once in a lifetime.

But who cares, 25,000 gp diamonds are available in every grocery, right?

Who needs a grocery store when Blood Money exists? Seriously, this is what everyone hangs their hat on these days. And don't mind the Strength damage, apparently there are 1001 ways to negate it.


Yes, blood money is a broken spell just in concept.

It is not what people hang their hat on, it is just describing ways to get it for free. People generally hang their hat on things that will get you to the wish level, such as persistent and dazing metamagics.

As a note, I consider miracle way more powerful than wish


Simon Legrande wrote:
Who needs a grocery store when Blood Money exists? Seriously, this is what everyone hangs their hat on these days. And don't mind the Strength damage, apparently there are 1001 ways to negate it.

Well Lesser Restoration or Restoration will do you just fine.

Neither are exactly hard to come by requiring as they do a level 3 or 7 cleric. Both are available as scrolls or wands and potions of lesser restoration are cheap. You can planar bind things which can remove ability damage and at least two creatures on the summon monster list can do it.

So yes, there are a number of very simple ways to remove ability damage which is just as well as it crops up as a team monster ability all the damn time. In fact its almost as if the game is designed to make it relatively easy to cure ability damage. Who would have thought...


Simon Legrande wrote:


Who needs a grocery store when Blood Money exists? Seriously, this is what everyone hangs their hat on these days. And don't mind the Strength damage, apparently there are 1001 ways to negate it.

I don't doubt it. Thing is, the spell to be nerfed here isn't Wish, which is perfectly fine with core stuff. It's since the previous millennium that we're witnessing expansion material bringing new horizons of craziness.

CWheezy wrote:
As a note, I consider miracle way more powerful than wish

In theory, it is, since you're dealing with someone holding divine power and more reasonable than obscure arcane forces (unless you're asking a Miracle to Rovagug). In practice, though, the deity judges if what you're asking is fair and appropriate, and among the many outcomes can also put a simple: "No. Go away, pls."

andreww wrote:
Well Lesser Restoration or Restoration will do you just fine.

Nope. You need something that prevents ability damage, not that just cures it. Using Blood Money for Wish would inflict 50 Str damage, which is more than enough even for a Dragon, imagine for the average 8 Str Wizard. But the excess isn't relevant. The moment you drop at 0 Str (which is the moment after you've cast Blood Money and before you cast Wish), you drop on the ground with not even the strength to move your lips and unconscious, so you need to immunize yourself from the damage to begin with.


Astral Wanderer wrote:


Nope. You need something that prevents ability damage, not that just cures it. Using Blood Money for Wish would inflict 50 Str damage, which is more than enough even for a Dragon, imagine for the average 8 Str Wizard. But the excess isn't relevant. The moment you drop at 0 Str (which is the moment after you've cast Blood Money and before you cast Wish), you drop on the ground with not even the strength to move your lips and unconscious, so you need to immunize yourself from the damage to begin with.

It's super easy for an 8 STR Wizard to get to 51 (the extra 1 is critical) STR. There's these spells called Marionette Possession and Magic Jar that let you possess a super high STR creature (either one you summon or make a Simulacrum of, or bind, or dominate, or...). Tack on a +6 belt, some neat buff spells like Blood Rage and your easily hitting 51 if not higher. Hell I have a breakdown for if you want to get to 51 STR while hanging out in your regular old body. And since you have 51 STR, you never have to worry about going unconscious after using Blood Money. Mind you I recommend having a summoned/bound/simulacrum with Heal just ready an action to cast it on you immediately after you cast Blood Money, just for safety.


Anzyr wrote:
Astral Wanderer wrote:


Nope. You need something that prevents ability damage, not that just cures it. Using Blood Money for Wish would inflict 50 Str damage, which is more than enough even for a Dragon, imagine for the average 8 Str Wizard. But the excess isn't relevant. The moment you drop at 0 Str (which is the moment after you've cast Blood Money and before you cast Wish), you drop on the ground with not even the strength to move your lips and unconscious, so you need to immunize yourself from the damage to begin with.
It's super easy for an 8 STR Wizard to get to 51 (the extra 1 is critical) STR. There's these spells called Marionette Possession and Magic Jar that let you possess a super high STR creature (either one you summon or make a Simulacrum of, or bind, or dominate, or...). Tack on a +6 belt, some neat buff spells like Blood Rage and your easily hitting 51 if not higher. Hell I have a breakdown for if you want to get to 51 STR while hanging out in your regular old body. And since you have 51 STR, you never have to worry about going unconscious after using Blood Money. Mind you I recommend having a summoned/bound/simulacrum with Heal just ready an action to cast it on you immediately after you cast Blood Money, just for safety.

As I said... hanging hat... 1001 ways... yadda yadda yadda...

The point I was making that you, Astral Wanderer, quoted several posts back is that the Wish spell having baked in downsides is a good thing. It doesn't say you take strength damage, it says you go to 3 strength. In fact, because of the changes they made they took out the need for a 25,000 gp diamond. I think 5e did a great job reworking many of the spells.


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We still talking about blood money like it is a serious thing? Should we bring up sacred geometry too? Anyone ready for heighten dazing unlimited use cantrips?

Neither are in the PRD.


It isn't theory that miracle is more powerful than wish. The only restriction is that it has to align with your deity's alignment. This is probably not difficult if you made it to level 17, considering you are now a paragon of your faith.

Also oracles cast it with zero restrictions


Anzyr wrote:
It's super easy for an 8 STR Wizard to get to 51 (the extra 1 is critical) STR. There's these spells called Marionette Possession and Magic Jar that let you possess a super high STR creature (either one you summon or make a Simulacrum of, or bind, or dominate, or...). Tack on a +6 belt, some neat buff spells like Blood Rage and your easily hitting 51 if not higher. Hell I have a breakdown for if you want to get to 51 STR while hanging out in your regular old body. And since you have 51 STR, you never have to worry about going unconscious after using Blood Money. Mind you I recommend having a summoned/bound/simulacrum with Heal just ready an action to cast it on you immediately after you cast Blood Money, just for safety.
Simon Legrande wrote:

As I said... hanging hat... 1001 ways... yadda yadda yadda...

You wrote that as if it disproves what I said...

I said you need to prevent the damage rather than curing it afterwards, and that method, in my book, is called prevention.

Simon Legrande wrote:
The point I was making that you, Astral Wanderer, quoted several posts back is that the Wish spell having baked in downsides is a good thing. It doesn't say you take strength damage, it says you go to 3 strength. In fact, because of the changes they made they took out the need for a 25,000 gp diamond. I think 5e did a great job reworking many of the spells.

So, it appears my point wasn't clear. Pathfinder's Wish doesn't need reworking to begin with. It' broken only if you factor in a spell or whatever from an expansion book, and that means it's that additional spell/whatever that needs reworking.

If you have a train running fine, and then suddenly drop a cow on its rails and it has to stop, it's not that the train had a malfunction in its gears, it's the cow that has to move away.
The fact that many players are all too happy to dig up broken things from books, and that GMs are crazy enough to allow it, doesn't make broken a base that, per se, wasn't.


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All of these "casters have unending power" theories rely incredibly on a GM who is going to just let casters do whatever they want. I have never seen Blood Money actually used in a game. I have never seen people make such silly, obscure, and ludicrous combinations in an attempt to obviously game the system.

It isn't that the folks I play with don't know about it, or can't do the math, it is quite simply that they can't come up with anything resembling a defense of clearly unintended results.

Sure, Blood Money is a written spell. But it is just as invalid as the wizard who trys to summon a wall of iron, fabricate it into 1000 masterwork longswords and profit. Do you need a rule to shut down obviously stupid and unintended consequences?

Sure, you can Magic Jar yourself into a melee monster. Still involves saves, spell resistance, range, duration, and that little detail of leaving your body an awesome target. Forgot those drawbacks, eh?

The ultimate failing of these comparisons is the simple fact that it assumes that the caster always has the right build/spells/equipment in order to pull them off, in every encounter all the time, while still being able to do the other stuff they need to do. That's the limiting factor kids. The archers can shoot all day, the fighters can swing all day, the wizard cannot cast spells endlessly, let alone a specific spell.

I have never in my life, until this thread, seen someone try to spin that a 1st level wizard is overpowered. If you were going to play a campaign where the entire campaign never advanced passed 4th level, let me know how many wizards you think there would be.


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Astral Wanderer wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
It's super easy for an 8 STR Wizard to get to 51 (the extra 1 is critical) STR. There's these spells called Marionette Possession and Magic Jar that let you possess a super high STR creature (either one you summon or make a Simulacrum of, or bind, or dominate, or...). Tack on a +6 belt, some neat buff spells like Blood Rage and your easily hitting 51 if not higher. Hell I have a breakdown for if you want to get to 51 STR while hanging out in your regular old body. And since you have 51 STR, you never have to worry about going unconscious after using Blood Money. Mind you I recommend having a summoned/bound/simulacrum with Heal just ready an action to cast it on you immediately after you cast Blood Money, just for safety.
Simon Legrande wrote:

As I said... hanging hat... 1001 ways... yadda yadda yadda...

You wrote that as if it disproves what I said...

I said you need to prevent the damage rather than curing it afterwards, and that method, in my book, is called prevention.

Simon Legrande wrote:
The point I was making that you, Astral Wanderer, quoted several posts back is that the Wish spell having baked in downsides is a good thing. It doesn't say you take strength damage, it says you go to 3 strength. In fact, because of the changes they made they took out the need for a 25,000 gp diamond. I think 5e did a great job reworking many of the spells.

So, it appears my point wasn't clear. Pathfinder's Wish doesn't need reworking to begin with. It' broken only if you factor in a spell or whatever from an expansion book, and that means it's that additional spell/whatever that needs reworking.

If you have a train running fine, and then suddenly drop a cow on its rails and it has to stop, it's not that the train had a malfunction in its gears, it's the cow that has to move away.
The fact that many players are all too happy to dig up broken things from books, and that GMs are crazy enough to allow it, doesn't make broken a base that, per se,...

It appears you think I was arguing with you. As far as I'm concerned Blood Money is one of the dumbest things ever printed. However, people that frequent the Paizo forum believe that if Paizo printed it then it's available.

Regarding the Wish spell in particular, I was giving it as an example of one of the many ways I think 5e spells are better. I honestly don't care how broken it is or isn't in Pathfinder as I've never actually seen it used in play ever.


I've also never seen Blood Money in a game, but that's because I preemptively told my players it would go on the pile of "if you use this I will too" and nobody was willing to risk it.

Blood Money isn't as "invalid" as Fabricating Wall of Iron, Blood Money does what it does and Wall of Iron says "Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold." Blood Money Fabricate you might be able to argue against, but Blood Money <standard spell with material component> is what it was made for.

Magic Jar they were discussing as a way to get incredible strength for your Blood Money free Wishes. So make a demiplane/rope trick, summon a monster inside (or conjure, or kidnap, etc.) and then magic jar it.

And no, the wizard doesn't have every spell all the time. He has that spell tomorrow after a quick trip to the scroll shop. Any time he can get to the store, really. And that's excluding things that are just generically useful and don't require specific circumstances (glitterdust, grease, the create pit line).

And I have, many times, in many editions, seen the wizard labeled as overpowered, even at first level. They were the artillery in earlier editions. No Con bonus and no max HP at first level meant magic missile could take out anything with a bad HP roll, monsters had much less health (and Ugly Green Things even less), and magic scaled indefinitely in many cases. Of course, I've also seen that complaint leveled at monks (for defense), martials (two-handed x3 or x4 crit), and druids (animal companions have a HD above you, can be built to be better than you).

And in a campaign that only went to 4th level I think I'd be tempted to play a blaster sorc (and murder everything with massive damage) or paladin (for lay on hands to keep me alive). Wizard is certainly on the table though, infinite spell growth (through copying spellbooks/scrolls) would let me continue to advance when everyone else had stagnated.


Anzyr wrote:


It's super easy for an 8 STR Wizard to get to 51 (the extra 1 is critical) STR. There's these spells called Marionette Possession and Magic Jar that let you possess a super high STR creature (either one you summon or make a Simulacrum of, or bind, or dominate, or...). Tack on a +6 belt, some neat buff spells like Blood Rage and your easily hitting 51 if not higher. Hell I have a breakdown for if you want to get to 51 STR while hanging out in your regular old body. And since you have 51 STR, you never have to worry about going unconscious after using Blood Money. Mind you I recommend having a summoned/bound/simulacrum with Heal just ready an action to cast it on you immediately after you cast Blood Money, just for safety.

There's an easy solution to this if this isn't your style of play - say no. If you'd rather go adventuring rather than play the puzzle game you're describing here - just go and do it. And if you're GMing and you've got players who want to do this but you don't? Don't run the game for them.

On the other hand, if this is what you want to do - what's the problem? Honestly, if you're giving the PCs carte blanche on the sources to the point that you're giving them access to creatures with approximately 50 strength, then why are you worrying about frequent wishing?

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a post. This kind of comment is really unnecessary.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Regarding the Wish spell in particular, I was giving it as an example of one of the many ways I think 5e spells are better. I honestly don't care how broken it is or isn't in Pathfinder as I've never actually seen it used in play ever.

Something's better than something else that you haven't even seen and don't care about? Well, alright.


Astral Wanderer wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Regarding the Wish spell in particular, I was giving it as an example of one of the many ways I think 5e spells are better. I honestly don't care how broken it is or isn't in Pathfinder as I've never actually seen it used in play ever.
Something's better than something else that you haven't even seen and don't care about? Well, alright.

You know, I'm starting to think you're just attacking something positive said about 5e because Pathfinder is your game. I guess you can not agree with me even though we're almost saying the same thing.

Well, whatever floats your boat.


Astral Wanderer wrote:


So, it appears my point wasn't clear. Pathfinder's Wish doesn't need reworking to begin with. It' broken only if you factor in a spell or whatever from an expansion book, and that means it's that additional spell/whatever that needs reworking.

Counterpoint: Geas/quest, which is core and the most powerful single target wish


There are multiple spells which are mostly fine, because they are limited by very long cast times.

Wish removes that, and casting these spells with only a standard action increases their power exponentially. I am not sure what to do with wish. Personally, in my campaigns, wish is not a spell that you can cast, it is in the realm of campaign macguffins.

That is one idea for the wish spell, having two versions, one of which has an extraordinarily expensive or rare component for it, worth something like 500k


OK looking over your list there is an easy fix to all detect spells, change all of them to full concentration. I.E. this is all you can do, it takes your entire focus to do these spells.

Alarm is a SUBTLE spell, so should have a 15 base to detect.

Grease needs to stay the same size to work on Large creatures.

Sleep, leave alone due to the long cast time. any casting like this should have the caster hit with ranged weapons.

drop vanish all together.

Color spray, any caster that uses this spell regularly is silly, getting that close is usually a good way to die, change the effect to blind and stunned for a d4 rounds below 4th 5th and above stunned 1 rd.


Level 2

Blindness/deafness change remove blindness/deafness to level 2

Blur needs no changes, a 1 in 5 miss is no big problem

Create pit has a max depth 30' climb dc is by the book

Command Undead good nerf.

Web and Invisibility have been nerfed enough.


This is good feedback, thanks! I will think on your ideas

Liberty's Edge

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CWheezy wrote:

Hey guys! I am working on a doc for reasonable spell nerfs in pathfinder! Many times it gets talked about that magic needs nerfing, but actual suggestions are pretty rare!

I have been writing my nerfs down for little while. I am not really far in, but I will continually be updating the google document. If you have any comments or questions, let me know!

Spell Nerfs

After looking the levels 0-2, it seem you are applying mostly unreasonable nerfs, with the exception of Blood money, that simply is too exploitable.

My impression is that, for the spells I have seen, you don't know their limits or you go only with horror stories from the forum instead of seeing them in game.

If you have so much problems with pure casters, remove them from the allowable PCs and limit the game to character with only 6 or even 4 levels of spells. it would eb more honest.


Hi, I am using personal experience as well.

One problem is that casters have been so much better for years that any nerf can be seen as a lot.


Hmmm, I think attacking me personally and accusing me of being dishonest is not conducive to discussion! Maybe instead of doing that, ask for an explanation of why I would change spell x, or, why you think that is too far of a change and the spell is fine.

EDIT: I think you are misunderstanding me. I have no problem with full casters, I have problems with individual spells.

Also, can you explain where I am being dishonest?

Dark Archive

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I think you're taking the nerfs farther than necessary. I can see nerfing long distance teleportation (just don't allow it to be used to go somewhere you haven't already been). Just remove all mention of the familiarity categories, and require a focus item of some kind to be there. Use the "Highly Familiar" row. That stops the Scry and Die problems, while still keeping teleport pretty useful. I might consider lowering both teleport spells by a level to go along with this nerf.

But spellcasting isn't typically over powered. The problem is not so much the power of spells as the versatility of spells. The problem is casters have 5+-50+ options each turn, wheres the martials have one or two, and outside of combat, the martials don't have a bunch of cool utility stuff they can do, just some piddly skillpoints.


Hmmm, that is a good teleport idea, actually. I think I disagree with lowering the level though. I might bump them up to level 6/8 for teleport and greater, they are /really/ powerful because of how they basically change how you view the world.

@Kringess: Are you sure grease has to be under all the squares of a large creature for them to slip?

I agree with your alarm suggestion. I also agree with dropping vanish, but I think removing any spells from play is probably out of the question for pathfinder.


Looks like all you have to do is move through the square to have the reflex save, but I would make the saves for large creatures an 11 reflex,and 5 for 1/2 speed. The stride for large creatures could bypass that one square so it would have a decent chance to not even be noticed. The 10' square makes so any target has problems a 5' square does not even slow down anyone. At the maximum you need a 5 DC acrobatics check to avoid the square (long jump dc).

To me this makes the 5' Grease a single target attack spell that you hope works.

With a Max 17 save under level 8 for most monsters/PC's this is not that hard of a save especially with a 10 DC acrobatics for 1/2 speed move through.


The simplest solution for combat is to change the way DC is calculated.

Pure Blasts save at 12 + 1/2 CL + stat
SoDs save at 6 + 1/2 CL + stat
SoS save at 8 or 10 + 1/2 CL + stat depending on how much they suck (eg. nauseated sucks more than staggered) and if they have multiple saves (eg. hold person vs dazing fireball)

I'm not sure where divinations would fall on the save scale. Possibly with blasts, but there are some concerns about interactions with teleportation.

Metamagic can shift things into lower save categories.

Intensify and Heighten are merged (+2.5 to CL caps per level heightened)

For noncombat I'm a fan of just getting rid of spells, though I can think of a workable fix for the teleportation subschool. All teleports are line of sight unless the target has been seen (or a high fidelity image*) and is distinctive** and unless the image is available must also be memorable***. If the location has changed bad things happen: probably a wasted spell for greater teleport and impromptu planar adventures for normal teleport.

* Unless color photography is a thing that means a panoramic (plus one from another angle of the actual target site unless it's something simple like plain grass) set of high quality paintings or tapestries made on site. Memory is not reliable enough for illusion to pass a sufficiently certain image, though I suppose someone could make an illusionary diorama of his current location to allow someone else to teleport around a dogleg.

** Teleporting to a hill overlooking a town might work, but teleporting to a street or hallway probably won't. A hallway you've been in personally might be targetable based on unique decorations.

*** Major landmarks are memorable. Random locations, even if they have unique skylines, are not. Home is memorable, but most adventurers don't have one that will remain unchanged.

The other change I'd look at is eliminating the enchantment school. I think I'd fold the morale spells into necromancy to go with the fear spells (conjuration:healing should never have left necromancy) and most of the rest of the debris can join illusion:pattern, but all dominates and charms except animal and most of the non-CRB compulsions can get lost except as SLAs on outsiders and abominations. This shores up the two of the three weakest wizard specializations and makes choosing opposition schools harder.

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