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Hi all,
In the interest of full disclosure I don't normally play enchanters. As a matter of fact I normally choose enchantment as my forbidden school when playing a specialist.
However, I'm thinking about making an enchanter. Not just any enchanter though. The best enchanter. Ever (if possible).
This is for a PC.
Off the top of my head I'm thinking Kitsune. Apparently they're the best, though I'm not sure why. Never played one.
Also, I'd probably want to at least dip into dual bloodline sorcerer so I can enchant things not normally susceptible. Undead and whichever one lets you enchant animals comes to mind. Plus the high charisma is bound to come in handy.
Anyone have any general thoughts on how to best max out my ability to make other things my willing thralls? I'm totally new at enchanting so any and all advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.
The animal one is Serpentine
The animal one is Serpentine
I don't have books in front of me, but that's the one. I believe that lets you charm animals and monstrous humanoids.
Undead will let you charm previously humanoid undead.
Then the normal charming of humanoids.
That should cover most of my bases, but I may be overlooking something.
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The reason why Kitsune keep coming up under enchantment is for three reasons:
1) Racial bonus in charisma -- a plus for sorcerers and socialite skills;
2) Racial bonus of +1 on enchantment DCs.
3) Preferred class bonus for sorcerers of an extra +1 to your enchantment DC for every 4 levels that you take of sorcerer.
Kitsune bards or evangelists that continually stacking +1 every four levels. (Though I agree that evangelists are awesome!)
And I note that there are other reasons to play a Kitsune than stacking the enchantment DCs. The feat, realistic likeness, is awesome for shapeshifters and deceivers of all types. It's an awesome race overall, and one of my personal favorites.
Hmm
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The animal one is SerpentineI don't have books in front of me, but that's the one. I believe that lets you charm animals and monstrous humanoids.
Undead will let you charm previously humanoid undead.
Then the normal charming of humanoids.
That should cover most of my bases, but I may be overlooking something.
Regarding the whole cross-blooded thing with Kitsune Sorcerers -- Yeah, you get awesome DCs, and yes, you would be a freaking scary enchanter -- but if your character is coming in at a high enough level where you can handle the reduced sorcerer spells. If you're starting in levels 1-5, cross-blooded is way too high a price to pay. You become a one shot pony with no versatility at all.
Hmm
If you take the crossblooded archetype for the sorcerer, you can take the Impossible and Undead bloodlines, allowing you to use enchantments on undead that were once humanoid, as well as on constructs.
The kitsune sorcerer favored class bonus will add up to a +5 DC boost on enhcantment effects by level 20.
So Kitsune
Dualblooded Sor 1 Undead & Impossible or Serpentine / Wizard Enchanter X
On a related note how does Charm Person (for example) work against constructs that are otherwise immune to almost everything else? I think Animals and Monstrous Humanoids via Serpentine might be more useful.
Any thoughts on Feats or must-have tricks?
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I heavily recommend Impossible/Serpentine. Threnodic spell works on ALL undead, regardless of previous type, and costs 9k for a minor rod. Coaxing spell lets you affect vermin and oozes in addition to everything else, but doesn't have a metamagic rod statted up. If you can homebrew one up, I'd price it the same as threnodic.
Kitsune just adds +1 to enchantment spells. Go Controller Wizard with a +2 int race and you get +1 to all spells instead. Dip Crossblooded Fey/Serpentine Sorcerer for 1 level.
Consider Silver-Tongued Alt. Racial Trait. Student of Philosophy+Ease of Faith Traits for maxing diplomacy/bluff. Spell Focus: Enchantment for feats.
Beyond that, don't overspecialize in enchantment--start investing in your generalist abilities for situations where enchantments are the wrong approach. Enchantment is very underrated on these boards imo.
Kitsune just adds +1 to enchantment spells. Go Controller Wizard with a +2 int race and you get +1 to all spells instead. Dip Crossblooded Fey/Serpentine Sorcerer for 1 level.
It's not that. It's the sorcerer FCB: Add +1/4 to the DC of enchantment spells per level.
Beyond that, don't overspecialize in enchantment--start investing in your generalist abilities for situations where enchantments are the wrong approach. Enchantment is very underrated on these boards imo.
I think you may have meant overrated, but otherwise I agree. The degree which you should specialize depends on party composition, but if you can grab other utility spells.
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I'm playing an Enchantment focused Arcanist in a Way of the Wicked game right now. I'll post the character below. I went with the Blood Arcanist (Serpentine) archetype to gain access to the Serpentine bloodline arcana. I took the School Understanding (Controller) exploit to gain access to the "Force of Will" power from that school and I took the Potent Magic exploit so I could really juice my DCs or boost the spell level to overcome DR.
I took SF and GSF for enchantment and then extra exploit (School Understanding).
Very fun character but I have learned to keep some non-enchantment spells memorized. Also, make sure you are not "good" or "evil" so that you won't get jacked by first level "pro from X" spells.
Here you go...
Malakai
Male peri-blooded aasimar (emberkin) blood arcanist 5/diabolist 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Book of the Damned Volume 1, Princes of Darkness; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 8, 77; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 84)
LN Medium outsider (human, native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +3
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Defense
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AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 53 (6d6+17)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +8; +2 vs. Charm and Compulsion Effects
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks serpent's fangs
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +8)
. . At will—serpentfriend
. . 1/day—pyrotechnics (DC 14)
Blood Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 6th; concentration +12):
. . 3rd—fireball (DC 19)
. . 2nd—create pit{super}APG{/super} (DC 18), hideous laughter (DC 20)
. . 1st—charm person (DC 19), comprehend languages, magic missile, memory lapse{super}APG{/super} (DC 19)
. . 0 (at will)—daze (DC 18), detect magic, mage hand, mending, open/close (DC 16), prestidigitation, spark{super}APG{/super} (DC 16)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +2; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Extra Arcanist Exploit[ACG], Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus (enchantment)
Traits clever wordplay, focused disciple, overwhelming beauty, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +5, Appraise +10, Bluff +12, Diplomacy +15 (+13 vs. Creatures that threaten, accuse, or challenge you and haven't apologized), Disguise +15, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Knowledge (planes) +14, Knowledge (religion) +12, Linguistics +12, Perception +3, Sense Motive +14 (+12 vs. Creatures that threaten, accuse, or challenge you and haven't apologized), Spellcraft +15, Stealth +6
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Custom Language, Draconic, Elven, Custom Language, Infernal, Sylvan
SQ arcane reservoir, arcanist exploit (potent magic, school understanding), bloodline (serpentine), consume spells, damned, dazing touch, infernal charisma, pride, school (controller), scion of humanity, truespeaker
Combat Gear scroll of fly (x3), fox's cunning (x9), mage armor (x6), wand of haste (6 charges), wand of mage armor (28 charges), wand of shield (45 charges); Other Gear cloak of resistance +2, hat of disguise, headband of vast intelligence +2, 128 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Reservoir +2 DC or CL (8/day) (Su) Pool of points fuel exploits, or can expend to add +2 CL or DC while cast spell.
Consume Spells (Su) As a move action, expend a spell slot to add its spell levels to arcane reservoir.
Controller Associated School: Enchantment
Damned It is difficult to raise your soul from Hell when killed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dazing Touch (9/day) (Sp) Touch attack dazes foe for 1 rd, if HD <= wizard level.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Familiar Bonus: +3 to Bluff checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Focused Disciple When weaker wills falter, you keep a clear mind. You gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion effects.
Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) +1 to the Save DC of spells from one school.
Infernal Charisma +2 (Ex) +2 to your Charisma when dealing with infernals.
Overwhelming Beauty Mind-affecting effects +1 DC vs. creatures of same subtypes.
Pride -2 to diplomacy and sense motive vs. those who threaten, accuse, or challenge you, until they apologize
School Understanding Use 1 reservoir as a swift action to treat school ability at full level & gain other ability for 2 rds.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Serpent's Magic Fang + Poison (1d2 CON, 5 rounds/day, DC 14) (Ex) Bite attack (magic) deals 1d4 damage + Poison (Bite-injury; DC 14; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Con damage; cure 1 save)
Serpentfriend (At will) (Ex) Speak with Animals (reptilian) at will.
Serpentine Your mind-affecting and language-dependent spells can affect animals, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids as if they were humanoids who understand your language.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Spell Focus (Enchantment) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Wand of haste (6 charges) Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wand of mage armor (28 charges) Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wand of shield (45 charges) Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
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Size is small w/no mechanical benefit. Height is 4' and weight is 80 lbs.
Background: Sedition
You have attempted to covertly stir up rebellion against
your rightful sovereign. This differs from high treason
in that you attempted to convince others to make war
against Talingarde instead of taking direct action yourself.
A subtle difference to be sure. But it is the difference
between receiving the swift justice of the axe instead
of the slow suffering upon the rack.
Punishment: Death by beheading
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
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Oh and one other thing you should keep in mind with Enchantment...
When something tries to Enchant something you are currently making you have to make opposed CHARISMA checks... So in this case a Sorcerer would have a stronger hold on their thralls (this also allows you to have a funny tactic vs vampires... just dominate your own fighter. If the vampire tries to dominate your fighter, they have try and face off agaisnt you in a CHA competition...)
Oh and you really want to load up on your Socialite skills. Pretty much off spec as a Diplomomancer. This allows you to do things like blending your spells wiht your bluff/Diplomacy skill to amke your life VERY easy.
This is actually a tactic I like doing with illusionist builds as well. I will ramp up my disguise and bluff skills so that even if something sees through my illusion, they may fail against my disguise (you know how many times people fall for the old "mundane disguise under a magic illusion" trick when using true seeing? its like people assume that when you use true seeing, you are seeing through everything xD)
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I am actually a big fan of human over kitsune for enchanters. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but really at a point there's no reason to increase spell DC's any further. With my last human enchanter, by level 8 most enemies had to roll at least a 15 to beat my higher DCs and the combat-oriented ones could only save on a natural 20. I also prefer Socerer over Wizard because the Charisma boost is thematically appropriate.
As a human at 1st level you take Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment). The bonus feat gives you the same +1 that you get as a Kitsune.
So with a 20 CHA you could have DC 20 Sleep and Hypnostism spells (10+5+1+1+1+2) at Level 1. And compulsions become even better in the higher levels once you get Hold Person, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Dominate Monster, Unnatural Lust, Suggestion.
Put your human FCB into extra spells known for utility. If you really want to enchant mindless or undead pick up some metamagic rods, but I had a lot more success switching up my tactics as the situation called for it. (Undead have good will saves anyway.) Make conjuration your secondary focus and transmutation your tertiary.
And remember that Heroism and Rage are also Enchantment spells, so you can make your summons or lackeys absolute beasts.
I am actually a big fan of human over kitsune for enchanters. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but really at a point there's no reason to increase spell DC's any further. With my last human enchanter, by level 8 most enemies had to roll at least a 15 to beat my higher DCs and the combat-oriented ones could only save on a natural 20. I also prefer Socerer over Wizard because the Charisma boost is thematically appropriate.
As a human at 1st level you take Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment). The bonus feat gives you the same +1 that you get as a Kitsune.
So with a 20 CHA you could have DC 20 Sleep and Hypnostism spells (10+5+1+1+1+2) at Level 1. And compulsions become even better in the higher levels once you get Hold Person, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Dominate Monster, Unnatural Lust, Suggestion.
Put your human FCB into extra spells known for utility. If you really want to enchant mindless or undead pick up some metamagic rods, but I had a lot more success switching up my tactics as the situation called for it. (Undead have good will saves anyway.) Make conjuration your secondary focus and transmutation your tertiary.
And remember that Heroism and Rage are also Enchantment spells, so you can make your summons or lackeys absolute beasts.
The thing is that the Kitsune can *also* take Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment. Simply put a Kitsune is going to be +6 to the DC ahead of the human. And that's kind of a big deal. It's worth way way more then one bonus feat. And when your build is reliant on Save or Dies, you can't ignore Save DCs of that magnitude.
Are you allowed 3.5 material?
Nope.
However, if you go cross blooded with impossible, you get spell focus for free at level 3.
Impossible gives Craft Wondrous Item, not Spell Focus at level 3. It's still a fantastic feat with downtime, just not the focus of the build.
I think sorcerer would work fine but you might also want to consider a Kitsune Arcanist with the Blood Arcanist archetype and the fey bloodline and the extra exploit feat and Potent Magic exploit to really jack up the save DCs.
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Fey blooded might be the worst bloodline to take for an enchanter. You'd be better off going cross blooded serpentine and impossible and be able to use your enchantment spells on animals, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, and constructs.
And yes, a kitsune could take spell focus at level 1, just not greater spell focus. However, if you go cross blooded with impossible, you get spell focus for free at level 3.
Sorry, I meant Greater Spell Focus.
But really, I still say Human > Kitsune. At some point the save DC's don't need to be higher. Really front-loading the save DC's are where it's at. I'd rather get an extra spell known every level than +1/4th DC to a save they probably won't make anyway.
Everybody knocks Fey, but "Laughing Touch" is actually a pretty amazing bloodline power and there are some very worthwhile bonus feats. But why I really say Fey over Serpentine or Impossible is because A) animals are still susceptible to the biggest enchantment spells and B) enchanting something isn't always the best solution.
Sure, if you mean by "ultimate enchanter", he should be able to enchant his way through every situation every time, then you have a case. But if by ultimate enchanter you mean best enchantment specialist, then he should be great when enchantment fits and have other options when it doesn't.
The animal one is SerpentineI don't have books in front of me, but that's the one. I believe that lets you charm animals and monstrous humanoids.
Undead will let you charm previously humanoid undead.
Then the normal charming of humanoids.
That should cover most of my bases, but I may be overlooking something.
Impossible Bloodline lets you enchant constructs.