Undead and Rage


Rules Questions


So, several iterations of APs and such have things like ghouls and undead with barbarian levels, gaining at least the strength bonus from Barbarian rage. Barbarian rage is a Morale bonus, which undead are strictly immune to. I've searched through threads, and there are scant few where people go 'oh it's morale, but why do all these NPCs have undead that rage?' --

Why? Because Barbarian rage being a morale bonus is something that happened with the change to Pathfinder from 3.X. Barbarian rage used to be a flat 'bonus' not a 'morale bonus'. I suppose some people still think it's the case, because they played 3.5, and the Barbarian (and now Bloodrage) rage features read almost exactly the same as how they used to.. just with 'morale' neatly tucked in there.

Can there be an official ruling on this? How would I change NPCs who don't actually benefit from rage, such as several adversaries in the Mummy's Mask AP? I'm not looking at the book, but I even think they swapped over the Con score bonus to Cha!


House rule an "undead rage", if that doesn't float your boat switch them out for fighter levels and concentrate on natural attacks.


I don't mind if undead rage. I had two undead characters pre-Pathfinder that could rage. It was pretty darned cool for the fluff reasons why too. I want to know why they can ignore the little 'morale' bit now when they're supposed to be immune to those bonuses.


A lot of the problem is that Adventure Path writers don't necessarily read the rules carefully and don't realize that rage was changed to a morale bonus, even years after the fact.

For Adventure Paths and other pre-written material I chalk it up to bad fact checking and run it as written even though rage shouldn't work. Heck, you players don't need to know he was a barbarian or really much else about undead with class levels that isn't normally covered by the bestiary entry.

However, I apply the rules to player characters. With the exception of a plant animal companion available to druids that happens to also be to benefit from rage despite plant type creatures immunity to morale effects as well.


Seems a bit cheesy for undead now that I think about it. They do not generally use Charisma or Intelligence skills or get fatigued, after all, so avoid the main disadvantages of Rage.


Ruleswise undead barbarians raging is pretty dubious, but thematically, there are an awful lot of angry undead types (wraiths and specters come to mind).........


Well during the encounter with said undead barbarian ghoul (which we easily ID'd as a ghoul from knowledge checks and such) my DM screamed and described that she 'flies into a rage'. So I was like '...uh, she's a barbarian? Well that explains why she's not getting caught flat footed ..uh.. wouldn't an undead not get rage bonuses since they're morale related?' and we both looked at each other with the same face of 'yeah why DO they get rage bonuses?' I think the statblock even had it improve Charisma instead of Constitution. We of course looked at it after the fact and said 'whatever it can rage' .


My understanding is that monsters don't necessarily have to follow the rules, or rather their is a built in rule that a monster may be designed in such a way that goes beyond regular rules. For example, an undead that can rage.


Monsters do have to follow the rules. However writers don't check the rules for every thing they do which I understand. In 3.5 creatures could ignore an immunity if it was to their benefit. Pathfinder did not bring that rule over but many people mistakenly assume certain rules are carried over. I am not looking down on anyone who does this. I am guilty of it also.


Given all the immunities undead come with just for being undead, it's only fair that they're incapable of receiving a few benefits.

Trust me, sometimes I wish there was a way to hit undead with morale bonuses; I would love to pair up an undead lord cleric or necromancer with a bard or skald and buff up a horde all at once.


thegreenteagamer wrote:

Given all the immunities undead come with just for being undead, it's only fair that they're incapable of receiving a few benefits.

Trust me, sometimes I wish there was a way to hit undead with morale bonuses; I would love to pair up an undead lord cleric or necromancer with a bard or skald and buff up a horde all at once.

If you think it would make the adventure better, then do it. Monsters get exception to the rules anytime the GM says they do.


JoeJ wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:

Given all the immunities undead come with just for being undead, it's only fair that they're incapable of receiving a few benefits.

Trust me, sometimes I wish there was a way to hit undead with morale bonuses; I would love to pair up an undead lord cleric or necromancer with a bard or skald and buff up a horde all at once.

If you think it would make the adventure better, then do it. Monsters get exception to the rules anytime the GM says they do.

I kinda meant "as a player" I would enjoy being one of the two.


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A bard who entertains his colleague's undead horde with inspiring music - I love that idea!

All together now, #'Cause this is thriller, thriller night
And no one's gonna save you from the beast about to strike
.


The same reason a barbarian gets to use their DR against a Vicious weapon. MAGIC! And poor rules checking of some specific things in APs/modules the devs will be happy to tell us are "special exceptions to the usual rules".

Plus, you may want to reread bards. Inspire Courage is " a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. ", not morale.


True, but...

Here's the Problem:

From the PRD wrote:
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
Also from the PRD wrote:

Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. An undead creature has the following features.

d8 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
Good Will saves.
Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. Many undead, however, are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. The following are class skills for undead: Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth.
Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


Ouch, you're right. And I'm not sure bards have anything that's not morale or mind-affecting. I looked at clerics too and even the luck bonuses (Prayer) are mind-affecting. Weirdly, Discordant Voice does work with an undead horde, as long as you have a high level bard standing inside your undead horde. So... some writer really loves Thriller.

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