enlarge person / reduce person discrepency


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Enlarge Person: Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

Reduce Person: Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?


I would take "normal" and "Size of the weapon that fired" to mean the same thing. The "size" in the second entry is, logically, the natural (or "normal") size of the weapon without magical modification.


If you are enlarged, so is your gear. As soon as it leaves your physical space it returns to its original, crafted size.

The wording for Reduce Person is wrong.


Raving Dork, are you asking because you are confused or because you want to see it changed?

It is obviously contradictory, but I feel you have known about this contradiction (as many of us who frequent the board do) for quite some time.

I feel your question is disingenuous, and that you aren't seeking clarification on the rules (which are clear), but are rather seeking that this be changed. Am I incorrect in this?

In either event, at this time the answer is the spells despite being similar in general effect have different effects from one another such that projectile damage is determined in accordance with the effect of any relevant spells in place which would supercede the normal method of determining damage based on the size of the weapon.

Ravingdork wrote:
FrozenLaughs wrote:

If you are enlarged, so is your gear. As soon as it leaves your physical space it returns to its original, crafted size.

The wording for Reduce Person is wrong.

Where is this supported though?

It isn't supported at all anywhere in the rules. It is inconsistent between the spells, but that does not mean that they are not the rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FrozenLaughs wrote:

If you are enlarged, so is your gear. As soon as it leaves your physical space it returns to its original, crafted size.

The wording for Reduce Person is wrong.

Where is this supported though?

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:


These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?

It depends on which spell you're under the effect of, as can be seen from the effects in your post.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?
It depends on which spell you're under the effect of, as can be seen from the effects in your post.

But that's highly inconsistent...


Ravingdork wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?
It depends on which spell you're under the effect of, as can be seen from the effects in your post.
But that's highly inconsistent...

And you point, good sir?


Ravingdork wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?
It depends on which spell you're under the effect of, as can be seen from the effects in your post.
But that's highly inconsistent...

Unless the guideline is "always round against the player". Then it's perfectly consistent.


Ravingdork wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?
It depends on which spell you're under the effect of, as can be seen from the effects in your post.
But that's highly inconsistent...

Edit: Ninja'd by Gwen.

Based on the wording, I get the sense that the fault is with enlarge person, i.e. thrown weapons deal non-magically sized damage and projectile deals damage based on the magically sized damage. From a logical standpoint this makes sense (although Newtonian physics / momentum gets a bit questionable when magic is involved lol). Based on other rules it also makes sense (projectiles damage based on the firing weapon, thrown weapons don't).

Shadow Lodge

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Why does there need to be consistency? They are two different spells.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

BECAUSE!

Without consistency everything falls apart.


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Ravingdork wrote:

BECAUSE!

Without consistency everything falls apart.

Damn. Now that you've told me, all my PF & D&D games just fell apart.

I wish I hadn't known.

Silver Crusade

The universe is moving towards disorder, always trying to reach a higher state of entropy. This is just another stepping stone on that journey.


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It seems perfectly reasonable to me. The damage of a projectile weapon is a function of the mass of what it is firing and the power imparted to it by the device doing the firing. In the rules, this is expressed as the lower of the two.

A small bow will never do more than a small arrow damage, even if the arrow it fires becomes medium after leaving a reduce person effect (for example) while a medium arrow will never do more than a medium arrow damage, even if it was large and fired from a large bow before leaving an enlarged person effect.

Basically, you have to have both large weapon and large ammunition (or meduim and medium etc.) to get that damage category.


Close, force is mass X acceleration, the same starting power (a set poundage of bow/the strength of the user) will carry roughly equal force in a decent range of masses, heavier items moving slower and lighter ones moving faster. Assuming none of these arrows/bolts/throwing axes are through and through then they should all dump all of their carried energy into a target resulting in about the same energy transfer. (all based on my limited knowledge: Physics) But that's all very beyond the scope of the game rules.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?

No. They do damage based on the SMALLEST of projectile size and firing weapon size.

I know we've been through this before somewhere.


Well, then, another reason to prefer Expansion to Enlarge Person:

Quote:


Other psionic or magical properties are not affected by this power. Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.

(emphasis mine)


There really does not need to be any consistancy. Spells set their own rules and pf does not have a he real rule for this.


If I have the enlarge person spell cast on me, and then grab and fire a large size arrow (not a medium arrow that is enlarged, a separate large arrow) will I do large size damage?


yes.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?
It depends on which spell you're under the effect of, as can be seen from the effects in your post.
But that's highly inconsistent...

And intentional. Next.


Thaine wrote:
If I have the enlarge person spell cast on me, and then grab and fire a large size arrow (not a medium arrow that is enlarged, a separate large arrow) will I do large size damage?

No.

Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrow. That is why, on the weapons table, the damage is listed with the bow itself, not the arrow.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeraa wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
Thaine wrote:
If I have the enlarge person spell cast on me, and then grab and fire a large size arrow (not a medium arrow that is enlarged, a separate large arrow) will I do large size damage?
yes.

No.

Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrow. That is why, on the weapons table, the damage is listed with the bow itself, not the arrow.

INCONSISTENCY!


Jeraa wrote:
Thaine wrote:
If I have the enlarge person spell cast on me, and then grab and fire a large size arrow (not a medium arrow that is enlarged, a separate large arrow) will I do large size damage?

No.

Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrow. That is why, on the weapons table, the damage is listed with the bow itself, not the arrow.

Stop.. think clearly about what he wrote and what he said.. He is firing a large arrow from a large bow, when he fires the arrow the Arrow returns to its normal size.. which... is Large.

Ergo it does large damage.

Liberty's Edge

I agree with the people that say that is an intended difference.
And with Mojorat in that a large arrow fired by a enlarged medium creature with a enlarged medium bow do the same damage of a large arrow fired by a large bow. The firer bow don't change it size and the large arrow stay large.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Enlarge Person: Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

Reduce Person: Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

These seem somewhat contradictory to me. Do fired projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them, or not?

the bow is smaller and thus the arrow has less force attached to it, that's how I see it anyway.


Ravingdork wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
Thaine wrote:
If I have the enlarge person spell cast on me, and then grab and fire a large size arrow (not a medium arrow that is enlarged, a separate large arrow) will I do large size damage?
yes.

No.

Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrow. That is why, on the weapons table, the damage is listed with the bow itself, not the arrow.

INCONSISTENCY!

I think I see the problem here.

"projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them". This is to state that if you throw a weapon it does normal size damage, but shooty weapons do less.
This is not rule of the game (well it is, but not in this context). This is a rule of the spell.

Complaining that these two spells are inconsistent is like saying that Burning Hands should always hit without any rolls because Magic Missile always hits.

Spells have self-contained rules for their effects. The only things that stay consistent are SR and concentration.

Edit: fixed incorrect wording.

Grand Lodge

gigyas6 wrote:


Complaining that these two spells are inconsistent is like saying that Burning Hands should always hit without any rolls because Magic Missile always hits.

Spells have self-contained rules for their effects. The only things that stay consistent are SR and concentration.

Great comparison. While these two spells are obviously similar in their effect, they are separate spells and each has its own rules on how to behave.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And yet the game would be made better and more easily understandable if similar spells acted similarly. These don't, and thus confusion is created.

Silver Crusade

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Ranged weapon damage is about momentum. Momentum is a product of velocity and mass.

A small bow imparts less velocity onto the arrow which is returning to medium size, and therefore the arrow has less momentum and does less damage.

An arrow that is returning to medium size has less mass, and therefore does less damage even though it left the bow at a higher velocity.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Ranged weapon damage is about momentum. Momentum is a product of force and mass.

A small bow I parts less force onto the arrow which is returning to medium size, and therefore the arrow has less momentum and does less damage.

An arrow that is returning to medium size has less mass, and therefore does less damage even though the large bow applied more force to it.

No. Momentum is velocity and mass, not force and mass. p = mv.

In order for this to work as described, the arrow fired from the small bow must slow down when it returns to normal size, while the arrow fired from the large bow must not speed up when it returns to normal size.

The m in the equation grows in the "reduce person" case, so the v must shrink so that the p remains the same. Momentum is conserved, velocity is not.

The m in the equation shrinks in the "enlarge person" case, but the momentum drops as well, so velocity need not change. Velocity is conserved, momentum is not.

Which is fine. It's magic and that's how it works.

Silver Crusade

Fixed it before you quoted me.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Fixed it before you quoted me.

Bah! Curse you and your fixes.

I still don't think it makes sense, though the math isn't as clear. You appear to be assuming that the small bow imparts less velocity than the normal, but that the large bow doesn't impart more than the normal.

Since the normal arrow fired from the large bow does normal damage, it can't be moving faster.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you for pointing out the discrepancy between the two spells. I had never noticed it before. I don't think there's really an issue to be addressed, though. The spells function differently, so you use the wording of the spell that is currently in play. You can't be enlarged and reduced at the same time, so there can't be any mix up.

What happens when you fire a large sized arrow from an enlarged bow (originally medium) is an interesting question, I have to admit. Especially since "projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them" is not a rule that applies to Enlarge Person.


The wording on them is so close that it feels like they should have had mimicing functions but the book is so old it would be very surprising to be an oversight this far into the lifespan of the game...


Ravingdork wrote:
And yet the game would be made better and more easily understandable if similar spells acted similarly. These don't, and thus confusion is created.

They're not similar spells because they're different spells. If they were similar spells - and further were not a change in power like the Cure and Wound spells - then they would be the same spell. There are actually a lot of spells currently that have multiple effects wrapped up into one, and you simply choose an effect.

These aren't those. They're different spells.


Torbyne wrote:
The wording on them is so close that it feels like they should have had mimicing functions but the book is so old it would be very surprising to be an oversight this far into the lifespan of the game...

The wording, btw, is the same in the 3.5 SRD, so it dates back at least that far.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
The wording on them is so close that it feels like they should have had mimicing functions but the book is so old it would be very surprising to be an oversight this far into the lifespan of the game...

The wording, btw, is the same in the 3.5 SRD, so it dates back at least that far.

Almost exactly correct, but precisely wrong. :)

The 3.5 versions dealt enlarged damage for enlarge person and reduced damage for reduce person with respect to projectile weapons. The damage was based on the weapon being fired, not the arrow's size. See 3.5 SRD enlarge person.

It was an intentional change from 3.5 to PF. There has always been a consistency problem with these spells. Every time someone tackles it anew, it just pops up somewhere else. These spells are the Whack-a-Mole of the 3e family.


Howie23 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
The wording on them is so close that it feels like they should have had mimicing functions but the book is so old it would be very surprising to be an oversight this far into the lifespan of the game...

The wording, btw, is the same in the 3.5 SRD, so it dates back at least that far.

Almost exactly correct, but precisely wrong. :)

The 3.5 versions dealt enlarged damage for enlarge person and reduced damage for reduce person with respect to projectile weapons. The damage was based on the weapon being fired, not the arrow's size. See 3.5 SRD enlarge person.

It was an intentional change from 3.5 to PF. There has always been a consistency problem with these spells. Every time someone tackles it anew, it just pops up somewhere else. These spells are the Whack-a-Mole of the 3e family.

Gah. I looked at that, read both of them and saw exactly the wrong thing. You're right it definitely was a change. The older version made more sense, IMHO. Momentum was conserved in both cases. Not that such physics considerations really matter.

Silver Crusade

thejeff wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Fixed it before you quoted me.

Bah! Curse you and your fixes.

I still don't think it makes sense, though the math isn't as clear. You appear to be assuming that the small bow imparts less velocity than the normal, but that the large bow doesn't impart more than the normal.

Since the normal arrow fired from the large bow does normal damage, it can't be moving faster.

Ummmmm, uhhhhh, hmmmmm.

Oh, yeah! It's magic!

There, that should fix him.


Jeraa wrote:
Thaine wrote:
If I have the enlarge person spell cast on me, and then grab and fire a large size arrow (not a medium arrow that is enlarged, a separate large arrow) will I do large size damage?

No.

Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrow. That is why, on the weapons table, the damage is listed with the bow itself, not the arrow.

Yea, that's not how it would work. The arrow was large before the spell, the bow is large after the spell. You do damage as large arrows.

That's been the way around this issue since 2009, carry large arrows in your efficient quiver. You can put 18 of them in the "javelin" slot. The arrows in an efficient quiver won't change size anyway (extradimensional space) so you need a stash of large arrows anyway. Unless you aren't using an efficient quiver... In which case enlarge person is a bad spell for you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
And yet the game would be made better and more easily understandable if similar spells acted similarly. These don't, and thus confusion is created.

What's not to understand? Enlarge Person is designed so that the only benefit is to melee damage, not ranged. See? that's VERY simple.

And be honest, the only time you carp about meanings, or "consistency", is when you're looking to wedge a loophole in cornering the rules.


LazarX wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
And yet the game would be made better and more easily understandable if similar spells acted similarly. These don't, and thus confusion is created.

What's not to understand? Enlarge Person is designed so that the only benefit is to melee damage, not ranged. See? that's VERY simple.

And be honest, the only time you carp about meanings, or "consistency", is when you're looking to wedge a loophole in cornering the rules.

Dude! I'm usually one of the first people inline to call RD on some shenanigans, but out and out personal attack? Uncalled for.

Let's not assign motives, heaven only knows you don't want us assigning motives to your posts...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
And yet the game would be made better and more easily understandable if similar spells acted similarly. These don't, and thus confusion is created.

What's not to understand? Enlarge Person is designed so that the only benefit is to melee damage, not ranged. See? that's VERY simple.

And be honest, the only time you carp about meanings, or "consistency", is when you're looking to wedge a loophole in cornering the rules.

Dude! I'm usually one of the first people inline to call RD on some shenanigans, but out and out personal attack? Uncalled for.

Let's not assign motives, heaven only knows you don't want us assigning motives to your posts...

I could not care less if you or anyone else did. Because you will. Words convey meaning, meaning implies motive. No one writes anything worth reading without an axe to grind.

And the fact of the matter is that Dorks history is EXACTLY what I've laid out. He looks for ambiguities to justify munchkin maneuvers, claiming he's doing so "in the service of the game". I'm sure he's looking for some way to argue for an explosive enlargement from some empowered reduced dude shooting tiny arrows on their way to being large ones.


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LazarX wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
And yet the game would be made better and more easily understandable if similar spells acted similarly. These don't, and thus confusion is created.

What's not to understand? Enlarge Person is designed so that the only benefit is to melee damage, not ranged. See? that's VERY simple.

And be honest, the only time you carp about meanings, or "consistency", is when you're looking to wedge a loophole in cornering the rules.

Dude! I'm usually one of the first people inline to call RD on some shenanigans, but out and out personal attack? Uncalled for.

Let's not assign motives, heaven only knows you don't want us assigning motives to your posts...

I could not care less if you or anyone else did. Because you will. Words convey meaning, meaning implies motive. No one writes anything worth reading without an axe to grind.

And the fact of the matter is that Dorks history is EXACTLY what I've laid out. He looks for ambiguities to justify munchkin maneuvers, claiming he's doing so "in the service of the game". I'm sure he's looking for some way to argue for an explosive enlargement from some empowered reduced dude shooting tiny arrows on their way to being large ones.

Well I'm sure you are just upset because your adversarial grognard one-DM-to-rule-them-all playstyle gets exposed a bit more everyday with a transparent rules system like 3.x/PF and you are seeking to keep as much obfuscation in the game as possible. Clearly, "in service of the game," no doubt.


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Is this still a discussion about the two spells, or did it turn into a **** measuring contest?

I'm having trouble following the large arrow logic... Say you do pack some Large ones in your quiver. After Enlarge Person, aren't those arrows now Huge, incurring a size penalty to the attack... Until after they are fired and shrink back?

Is encasing them inside the Efficient Quiver preventing the size increase? Do they not increase to the appropriate size when drawn?


FrozenLaughs wrote:

Is this still a discussion about the two spells, or did it turn into a **** measuring contest?

I'm having trouble following the large arrow logic... Say you do pack some Large ones in your quiver. After Enlarge Person, aren't those arrows now Huge, incurring a size penalty to the attack... Until after they are fired and shrink back?

Is encasing them inside the Efficient Quiver preventing the size increase? Do they not increase to the appropriate size when drawn?

The extradimensional space blocks the effect, and the spell is already in effect when you draw the arrow so no increase. If you are using an efficient quiver you should be doing this anyway because otherwise you will be trying to shoot medium arrows with your large bow.

Liberty's Edge

BigDTBone wrote:
FrozenLaughs wrote:

Is this still a discussion about the two spells, or did it turn into a **** measuring contest?

I'm having trouble following the large arrow logic... Say you do pack some Large ones in your quiver. After Enlarge Person, aren't those arrows now Huge, incurring a size penalty to the attack... Until after they are fired and shrink back?

Is encasing them inside the Efficient Quiver preventing the size increase? Do they not increase to the appropriate size when drawn?

The extradimensional space blocks the effect, and the spell is already in effect when you draw the arrow so no increase. If you are using an efficient quiver you should be doing this anyway because otherwise you will be trying to shoot medium arrows with your large bow.

There is always something new to learn. I have never considered that the extradimensional containers block LoE even for the container owner. Probably because I rarely use enlarge person.

Interesting thing, reduce person would ruin the life of a archer with a efficient quiver.

This thing can have some strange secondary effect.


Diego Rossi wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
FrozenLaughs wrote:

Is this still a discussion about the two spells, or did it turn into a **** measuring contest?

I'm having trouble following the large arrow logic... Say you do pack some Large ones in your quiver. After Enlarge Person, aren't those arrows now Huge, incurring a size penalty to the attack... Until after they are fired and shrink back?

Is encasing them inside the Efficient Quiver preventing the size increase? Do they not increase to the appropriate size when drawn?

The extradimensional space blocks the effect, and the spell is already in effect when you draw the arrow so no increase. If you are using an efficient quiver you should be doing this anyway because otherwise you will be trying to shoot medium arrows with your large bow.

There is always something new to learn. I have never considered that the extradimensional containers block LoE even for the container owner. Probably because I rarely use enlarge person.

Interesting thing, reduce person would ruin the life of a archer with a efficient quiver.

This thing can have some strange secondary effect.

Is this explicitly stated anywhere? The enlarge/reduce person spells only say "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged/reduced by the spell."

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