How to play a Paladin?


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

hey all i love the idea of the Paladin but i just have no idea how to roleplay one, i looked at a guide but it ended up just making me a bit confused. what i would love is some useful advice on how far you can strecth Lawful Good and still have a fun character thats not a stick in the mud Lawful stupid character. the only idea i can think of is playing a agathion blooded aasimar and taking the trait to play NG or N wich opens it up alot but im still very curious on how folks portray their paladins and what Lawful good means to you all :)


Honestly there is a lot more flexibility in Lawful good than some people give it credit for.

Basically it comes down to
1) Rules are important and help make for a safer well organized society.
2) Helping others is just the right thing to do.

That said, you don't have to like it. You can easily be a grumpy cantankerous Pally who complains night and day about how he has to do the dirty work. He knows with absolute certainty He's gonna die being ripped in half by a demon some day. But he's never going to stop doing it, because he believes deep down he's doing the right thing and his wallowing in the blood and muck and ichor, makes everyone else's day just a little bit brighter.

or you could go with the shining naive knight in shinning armor, paragon of honor, exemplar of virtue and charity.

or just nestle in somewhere in between.


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Try to be good the best you can and do the right thing. That's pretty much it and the rest is open to endless and tedious interpretation about how you are a horrible Paladin who should have fallen for forgetting to say god bless you when someone sneezed.

Radiant Oath

I'm playing a Paladin of Sheyln at the moment, which follows a much 'friendlier' code than the standard one- if you check out the LG and NG Core Gods on Archives of Nethys some of them have their own codes. They can give you ideas for a bit more focus in what it was that made your character choose the path that he did.

In general I find the trick is to keep the code in mind whilst remembering that it's an ideal the character is trying to live up to, but that they aren't a robot and can make mistakes. At its most basic it's about doing good, helping people and stopping bad things happening, and in general that's what most adventuring parties are doing anyway. When other party members are doing things that go against your code don't have your character become aggressive or see it as an attack on his values, but as a sign that he has to show his allies that the true path is better, and to lead by example.

Lawful Good doesn't have to be about imposing one's will and judgment- it can be about showing that order and consideration for others is better than chaos and selfishness.


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You play them like this. This story has defined paladin morality and behavior for me.

Sovereign Court

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Really the only thing I have issues with in the pally's code of conduct is the "never lie" part.

There are many times in the life of an adventurer when subtlety and bluffing are necessary.


My favorite Lawful Good character is Popeye. Here's a scene featuring the late great RW; Popeye's motivation is "It's not right to use psychic powers to win at gambling, because that's cheating. Also, it's not right to use infants to gamble."

In the short view, the Oyls seem perfectly justified using the baby's fortune-telling powers to pay off the crushing debt they've suddenly accrued. But if you think about it, this is setting a very bad precedent for how the life of this orphaned baby is going to be, and on some level Popeye can cut through the BS and see what the right course of action is.

He's a Brawler, not a Paladin (he ain't gots the Chareesma fer pally-din), but he's just about the most Lawful Good character I can think of, and he's funny even when he's being a stick in the mud, and he's grumpy rather than naggy (which is its own kind of funny).

Also a great example of a character with a low Intelligence/Charisma and high Wisdom.

Grand Lodge

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Easiest example?

Captain America.

Shadow Lodge

oh wow IMHO, that was a excellent read, wow made me think a ton more about paladin, that guy in it was epic lmao man makes me even more excited to play a paladin now wooh! lol im so going to book mark that link for future refrence lol


Black Feather wrote:

Really the only thing I have issues with in the pally's code of conduct is the "never lie" part.

There are many times in the life of an adventurer when subtlety and bluffing are necessary.

Then consider it a challenge.


Raphael Valen wrote:
oh wow IMHO, that was a excellent read, wow made me think a ton more about paladin, that guy in it was epic lmao man makes me even more excited to play a paladin now wooh! lol im so going to book mark that link for future refrence lol

IMHO. You won. Here is a medal that gives you a +2 prestige bonus to internet anecdotes.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Easiest example?

Captain America.

This. The Chris Evans portrayal of Lawful Good in The Winter Soldier is textbook LG-ness.


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Other good litary paladins are Paksenarrion (Elisabeth Moon) and Michael Carpenter in the Dresden novels (Jim Butcher).

Being a paladin does hold you to a higher standard but that should be part of the fun rather than a millstone.


Read Elizabeth Moon's "The Deed of Paksenarrion". Best paladin story I've ever read, and very applicable to anything D&D-ish.

Also, 2e's "The Complete Paladin's Handbook" has tons of good advice.


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Paladins are simple.


  • Stay Lawful Good.
  • Do the right thing. You fall for committing an Evil act, never for committing a chaotic act unless your alignment changes.
  • Listen to authority if it's legitimate (not evil/illegal/immoral/whatever).
  • Don't be a dick. This one is fairly open-ended, as it's "act with honor" which varies wildly across cultures. The default is medieval honor, which made dishonorable basically anything that could make it easier for peasants to kill nobles (poison, trickery, sneak attacks, etc.). You could also go with the hospitality rules for ancient (and some modern) cultures, the code of Bushido (actually a modern 1899 invention), or even the various fictional ones like "I fight for Truth, Justice and The American Way." or "I am the Law!".
  • Help whoever you can help, provided they won't use it for Evil or Chaos.
  • Defend those who can't defend themselves, serve justice for the ones you couldn't defend.
  • (suggested) Don't hang around Evil people too much.

Within this covers the range of behavior from "If they detect as Evil then they clearly deserve the smiting" to "if thy enemy strike you on the cheek, turn to him the other". You can respond to a lawful (and immoral) order from a superior with "I will do this for the sake of the law, but know that I think this leads us on the wrong path", "I will not aid you on this immoral act", or "I'm going to start punching you until you start talking sense". It all boils down to what your character considers legitimate authority (maybe you only answer to a higher power, maybe you'll obey all laws that don't make you violate the "do the right thing" clause) and what your character considers honorable.

I read a story somewhere about an old paladin and a young paladin traveling together. The young paladin was a classic stick where the sun don't shine paladin, uptight and trying to remain moral by the standards of all cultures. They help save a town and the next day the young paladin walks in on the old paladin with a hooker and admonishes him for being with a whore. The old paladin admonishes him for calling her that and explains that she wanted to thank them and couldn't exactly pay money so offered her services. He had no reason to decline and it was only polite to accept.

For suggestions there's: the angry, hard-drinking misanthrope who's desperately trying to find something in the world worth saving and is going to keep saving people until he finds it; the quiet meek healer who occasionally flips out and utterly destroys evil; and the classic kind and compassionate young person fresh out of paladin school desperately trying to balance doing the right thing with following the complicated, unnecessary, and contradictory laws of the area.

Sovereign Court

Also, just because you shouldn't lie, doesn't mean you have to aggressively tell the truth all the time. Sometimes it's better to just shut up, let the rogue do the talking, and hope nobody asks you to corroborate his story.

The way I play it, lying is a slippery slope. Lying to some orcs about where to find orphans to eat isn't going to make you fall, but it gets you into a dangerous habit. So my paladin tries not to do it at all. Since my powers come from a clean conscience and pure spirit, I shouldn't be doing it even if it's okay this time.


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Have a look at what I asked on reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2f5prs/intimidating_paladin _can_i_do_it

The replies were really useful. Something I should mention, there is a new feat in ACG that makes an intimidating paladin silly. Disheartening Display.

If you ever come across a large mob, it takes 2 rounds to disperse them with a moderate intimidate check. Who needs magic?

Heck, with this combo, you could send a 12HD enemy running scared at level 6! It is a skill check, they get no save... but expect GM to send retribution.


But the paladin can not lie in those instances.

They aren't a shady jobber, they aren't allowed to be.


master_marshmallow wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Easiest example?

Captain America.

This. The Chris Evans portrayal of Lawful Good in The Winter Soldier is textbook LG-ness.

Yes, I especially like the lift scene. "Before we begin, is there anybody that would like to get off?"


Vorplex wrote:

Have a look at what I asked on reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2f5prs/intimidating_paladin _can_i_do_it

The replies were really useful. Something I should mention, there is a new feat in ACG that makes an intimidating paladin silly. Disheartening Display.

If you ever come across a large mob, it takes 2 rounds to disperse them with a moderate intimidate check. Who needs magic?

Heck, with this combo, you could send a 12HD enemy running scared at level 6! It is a skill check, they get no save... but expect GM to send retribution.

Sugoi.

So strong.

Lantern Lodge

Raphael Valen wrote:
The only idea i can think of is playing a agathion blooded aasimar and taking the trait to play NG or N wich opens it up alot but im still very curious on how folks portray their paladins and what Lawful good means to you all :)

When you said agathion blooded aasimar, do you mean the Enlightened Warrior trait? That trait only allows you to play a NG or N Monk. Paladins are still restricted to LG.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It also helps to remember that it is your character that has to follow the code, not everyone traveling with them. This can be a vital point if you are playing in PFS. Don't try to make others follow your code, it is your own actions that you are responsible for.


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Secane wrote:
Paladins are still restricted to LG.

At this point I'd like to point out that Paladins are not restricted to LG.

They are LG. It's not a restriction, it's part of their essence.


Oh no. What have you done.


Most paladins talk too much.

Click on this alias to see some favorite quotes for my paladin.....


Personally, I recommend playing an inquisitor. Then you avoid the omnipresent arguments of "A paladin would / should / must / musn't / can / can't / ..."
I get so tired of those arguments, that I have seriously considered banning the paladin from my games.


We've had more clerics fall than paladins, lol.


In My Humble Opinion wrote:
You play them like this. This story has defined paladin morality and behavior for me.

Was that paladin named Dirty Harold?

Shadow Lodge

wow aalot of awsome advice lol, and yes i was a bit sleepy and blanked out about enlightned warrior being monk only lmao XD oh well


One really good way is to figure out why you are a paladin and work from there. There is a difference between, say, a peasant who felt called to the paladinhood to defend the helpless, and a noble who took up the mantle because of noblesse oblige.


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This guy, right here, is pretty much the definition of Lawful Good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork_City_Watch#Captain_Carrot_Ironfou ndersson

He never actually lies in any book, but it doesn't mean he isn't occasionally deceptive. I remember one book where he was ordered not to hurt a captured prisoner, but he needs to get information out of him. So he states that if the prisoner doesn't talk he's going to "have to carry out his orders, to the letter, despite very much not wanting to." He never said his orders were to not hurt the individual/let them go, but seriously implied via flexing his muscles, etc, that they were to beat the living bejeezes out of the individual.

He's also charismatic as all get out, believes in every single archaic law that he can read, and every other paladin staple short of casting spells and channeling energy.

Plus, researching him is an excuse to read Pratchett, which is always a good idea.


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From the same series, here's another example of LG, but from a totally different perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vimes

A grumpy, mistrusting, gritty SOB, but he follows the law and orders even when he hates them, usually punching holes in walls, etc, when he disagrees. Vimes is a great example of a less traditional LG type.


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I once played a Paladin, LG, as you'd expect, who's soul purpose in life was to hunt, and slay, dragons. The paladin had no deity, but a philosophy that simply stated that "All Colored dragons are inherently evil, are incapable of being reasoned with, and should be purged on sight in as efficient a manner as possible. There are no exclusions to this rule."

The fact of the matter is that the Paladin lived and breathed the art of hunting down and slaying dragons. White, Reds, you name the color and he found it. The issue was that he could, by any means neccessary, get information about them. Anyone who withheld information about the dragons in the local area was considered a traitor of that philosophy, and could be dealt with accordingly.

The ultimate result is that you get this dark, gloomy guy who hunts creatures out of pure, undeniable rage from his traumatic, dragon-glazed past, who's only purpose was to walk around in full plate armor, buy as much energy resistance and evil protection as he could, forge every weapon he could get his hands on into a dragon bane, and hunt them down with such fury and intensity and so much joy in the act of killing them, and he could still be considered LG, because his end result followed his laws to the letter, and he always pursued what he considered to be the right thing.

He believed so much in his own philosophy that it granted him the miracles needed to slay said dragons, and he never once broke convictions.

The biggest argument broke out when we found an egg cluster after we defeated a white dragon. The thing died in it's own cave and audibly said "My children, my children! I know of you! The render! The seeker. I know what you do and what you've done! You are a holocaust of rage who punishes those who had nothing to do with your past... In our eyes, you are the evil, but please... my children have... done nothing..."

And then ALL EYES ON PALADIN, who immediately coup de graces the white dragon, and walks to the top of the dragon horde and stares directly into the welps eyes. There were 6. Much to the horror of the white dragon bloodlined sorcerer, the paladin looked at them for a moment, and then plainly said 2 words.

Great Cleave

His last phrase before he went back to the city was "The World is Gray"


What I do when I roll up a Pally is ask myself one question: to be Lawful or Good? Basically, this means if the GM decides to do the whole "Kill this possessed child who's only crime is being possesed or let 10,000 people die lol either way you fall" bullcrap that would normally leave said GM with a free mascara treatment sans makeup at that point, I can justify it to have the Pally avoid falling. Just...make sure your character is willing to compromise with the neutrals in the group or else you could end up stranded in the woods and killed by bears (true story). Basically don't be inflexible and if your GM wants to be a tool, prepare to justify until you're blue in the face.


Duboris wrote:


The biggest argument broke out when we found an egg cluster after we defeated a white dragon. The thing died in it's own cave and audibly said "My children, my children! I know of you! The render! The seeker. I know what you do and what you've done! You are a holocaust of rage who punishes those who had nothing to do with your past... In our eyes, you are the evil, but please... my children have... done nothing..."

And then ALL EYES ON PALADIN, who immediately coup de graces the white dragon, and walks to the top of the dragon horde and stares directly...

Love this ... and kudos to your GM for giving you a nice dramatic opportunity.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
In My Humble Opinion wrote:
You play them like this. This story has defined paladin morality and behavior for me.

Thank you for sharing this. That was magnificent. I want that guy in my gaming group!

Hmm


Duboris wrote:

I once played a Paladin, LG, as you'd expect, who's soul purpose in life was to hunt, and slay, dragons. The paladin had no deity, but a philosophy that simply stated that "All Colored dragons are inherently evil, are incapable of being reasoned with, and should be purged on sight in as efficient a manner as possible. There are no exclusions to this rule."

The fact of the matter is that the Paladin lived and breathed the art of hunting down and slaying dragons. White, Reds, you name the color and he found it. The issue was that he could, by any means neccessary, get information about them. Anyone who withheld information about the dragons in the local area was considered a traitor of that philosophy, and could be dealt with accordingly.

The ultimate result is that you get this dark, gloomy guy who hunts creatures out of pure, undeniable rage from his traumatic, dragon-glazed past, who's only purpose was to walk around in full plate armor, buy as much energy resistance and evil protection as he could, forge every weapon he could get his hands on into a dragon bane, and hunt them down with such fury and intensity and so much joy in the act of killing them, and he could still be considered LG, because his end result followed his laws to the letter, and he always pursued what he considered to be the right thing.

He believed so much in his own philosophy that it granted him the miracles needed to slay said dragons, and he never once broke convictions.

The biggest argument broke out when we found an egg cluster after we defeated a white dragon. The thing died in it's own cave and audibly said "My children, my children! I know of you! The render! The seeker. I know what you do and what you've done! You are a holocaust of rage who punishes those who had nothing to do with your past... In our eyes, you are the evil, but please... my children have... done nothing..."

And then ALL EYES ON PALADIN, who immediately coup de graces the white dragon, and walks to the top of the dragon horde and stares directly...

Hey, hey! Dragons don't get to use the holocaust for their own ends. Damn time-travelling dragons.

Grand Lodge

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From a less traditional angle, there is Michael Carpenter from The Dresedn Files. Skin Game should be required reading for anyone wanting to play a Pally. A good man of unshakeable faith and unending patience.

Besides, everyong should read Skin Game,

if only to find out that:
HE named his dog Spot.


Glewistee wrote:
From a less traditional angle, there is Michael Carpenter from The Dresedn Files. Skin Game should be required reading for anyone wanting to play a Pally. A good man of unshakeable faith and unending patience.

An excellent example.

Skin Game Spoilers:

We see several applications of faith -- and lack of faith -- through the book. I think paladin players could study several characters, actually.

Murphy gets a Sword of Faith broken because her faith and intent are not pure at a key moment.

Michael plays paladinhood to the hilt. The villain is able to manipulate Michael at certain key moments precisely because Michael is devoted to safeguarding the innocent. But at the climax of the book, Michael offers mercy and forgiveness to the big bad guy. The bad guy specifically refuses that offer ... and then Michael moves into full-on, no-holds-barred combat to stop the big bad guy.

Butters, at the end of the book, does what a hero should do. Butters is relatively a normal, with very few powers or abilities, yet armed with the barest magical defenses, he chooses to battle the big bad guy, knowing he could be defeated, but also knowing he could buy some time for help to arrive. His faith is rewarded.

Grand Lodge

pennywit wrote:
Glewistee wrote:
From a less traditional angle, there is Michael Carpenter from The Dresedn Files. Skin Game should be required reading for anyone wanting to play a Pally. A good man of unshakeable faith and unending patience.

An excellent example.

** spoiler omitted **

To go further;

On faith:
Uriel has such faith in Mike that he entrusts him with his Divinity, knowing that if Mike were to fall, he would cause Uriel to fall with him, adding an Archangel to the legions of Hell.


Come now, not only do we not need specific books on our reading list to play a paladin, the real issue is chatting to your dm about how they see them and falling, so you know whether you are heading into fun times or a battleground of pain.

For instance I will allow my paladins some leeway (grimdark is possible, genocide of evil is a-okay - and your god prepares you a special suite in the afterlife), but there are specific things in the rules that will cause a fall. There are also some amusing points to consider on lying. I was quite surprised when I found a thread the other week indicating paladins can't use sarcasm as it is often lying. There are some grey areas that need the dm to clear up with you (feinting paladin) so everyone can play on and not have an issue.


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Just play him like you would play Captain America really, honest good guy who follows the rules and always puts others before himself!!!!


DM Under The Bridge wrote:
For instance I will allow my paladins some leeway (grimdark is possible, genocide of evil is a-okay - and your god prepares you a special suite in the afterlife), but there are specific things in the rules that will cause a fall. There are also some amusing points to consider on lying. I was quite surprised when I found a thread the other week indicating paladins can't use sarcasm as it is often lying. There are some grey areas that need the dm to clear up with you (feinting paladin) so everyone can play on and not have an issue.

I tend to go with this, especially in consideration of your principles or your deity's. Some gods just don't give a f%@* if you put your boot heel in a goblin baby's head, but some are horrified that you would seriously consider shooting and eating that deer. Same way that if you are a paladin that preaches compassion you may find some inner turmoil if you have to end one life in cold blood to save thousands, but your buddy the paladin of vengeance whose family was murdered by soldiers of the Kingdom of Evil has no issue when he beheads 50 captured soldiers from said area. Now if he decided to let them go in good will and forgive...

So yeah, different fall conditions and different principles to live by depending on a variety of factors, but I just tend to let it ride for small to moderate things.


I would agree that Carrot Ironfounderson, Karen Murphy, and Michael Carpenter are all LG.

Vimes? Not so sure. It depends on which book you are reading. In a couple he is at best NG and edging pretty close to CG.
I think I would say Vimes is NG with CE tendencies. So he tries to force himself to behave as if LG to keep from losing control and becoming one of the bad guys.

I would not call Butters necessarily LG. Fighting his fear and becoming heroic certainly. But I don't think we've seen enough of his decision in ethical dilemmas to really say if he is L, N, or C.

Michael Carpenter is certainly the epitome of the non-Lawful-Stupid paladin.

Murphy is not a paladin in my opinion. She goes 'off the books' way too often and easily for me to consider her a paladin.

Not sure if I would call Carrot a paladin or not. Might be just a pretty smart and highly charismatic fighter. Not sure I've seen him do anything that really screams paladin-ish to me other than following the code. But anyone could decide to really stick to the code.

I really don't think Butters is a paladin. At least not yet. But I think he would like to be. I was actually thinking that PrC from the ISWG. Can't exactly remember the name right now. Low Templar or something like that.


I am distraught good fellows, I was watching a new anime, and my favourite paladin died.

Modern Japan setting, the guy was a ghoul hunter, very dedicated. Caring and supportive towards his comrades. Truly hated the ghouls. Uninterested in advancement, only the hunt mattered, so as to put down the flesh-eaters. Extremely brutal fighter, quite cruel towards ghouls, always very honest that their death was coming. Made good use of taunting and a range of attacks to take out the ghouls, including reach weapons like a giant spiked chain.

Alas he didn't make it! Ah well.

Shadow Lodge

ooo well another paladin i think is awesome is Shiro Fujimoto from blue excorcist, lol awsome character not to mention an actual paladin in the show XD lol


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Easiest example?

Captain America.

+lots to this. He is the best example in modern culture.

Btw: it's ok to make your character nuanced, but for the love of (insert deity here) Don't make him GrimDark!

Seriously sick of LG paladins that all act like the punisher.


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The problem with "how to play a paladin" has more to do with the relativistic morality introduced once the characters are worshipping deities whose definitions of "lawful" and "good" are so vastly divergent that a paladin of Charlemagne (one of legend and not fact, mind you) would likely find one of, say, Shelyn to not only be unlawful, but arguably evil in his or her outlook.

Frankly, those who point to Captain America as a shining example of a paladin are time on target. His loyalty is not to the United States, but to God and Country, if you grok the distinction.

Simple rule: If you have to worry about constructing subtle arguments to defend your behavior to the casual observer, you're not behaving as a paladin would. Thus, torturing captives, whacking babies (even baby dragons, orcs and demons) and sleeping around, despite the fervent, desperate desire of various players and DMs to justify it (and their invariable employment of sophistry to do so), ain't the behavior of a paladin.

Note of course that the above applies only to the original concept of paladin for D&D, which owes a tremendous debt to traditional Judeo-Christian morality. If instead you're one who prefers more the "exemplars of alignment" or "animate showcases for a particular deity's ideals" take, well ... that's an entirely different story. If you're goin' that way instead, knock yourselves out.

Lantern Lodge

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

I am distraught good fellows, I was watching a new anime, and my favourite paladin died.

Modern Japan setting, the guy was a ghoul hunter, very dedicated. Caring and supportive towards his comrades. Truly hated the ghouls. Uninterested in advancement, only the hunt mattered, so as to put down the flesh-eaters. Extremely brutal fighter, quite cruel towards ghouls, always very honest that their death was coming. Made good use of taunting and a range of attacks to take out the ghouls, including reach weapons like a giant spiked chain.

Alas he didn't make it! Ah well.

I know which anime you are talking about and NO that guy is NOT a paladin.

Cruel and paladin don't go hand in hand.

Sovereign Court

I agree with almost everything Jaelithe says. I like his simple rule.

I said almost; everything except the sleeping around part. Here is where we need a little bit more detail.

A "player" paladin that talks up girls with questionable promises and leads them on with false expectations of the future - that's clearly not honourable. But if he's honest towards his partners about how he feels - no "I truly love you" if that's not the case - and if he's honest about his plans for the future, then a paladin can certainly sleep around. If he meets someone, they both have a good night, and part on good terms, I don't see the problem.

Basically, if, knowing all the facts the court of public opinion would say that he's a decent guy, then he's safe.

The aforementioned paladin of Charlemagne might have a problem with that, although that's not really our idea of a paladin either. And Charlemagne had several concubines...

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