My argument - allow the Buccaneer in PFS play


Pathfinder Society


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Michael Brock's stated reasoning behind banning the Buccaneer is:

Michael Brock wrote:
"Buccaneer is a great archetype but there are too many siege bonus feats that would have to be changed. If I just declared them outright banned and no replacements for the archetype, people would become even more upset."

The siege bonus feats in question are Skilled Driver, Expert Driver, Siege Engineer, Siege Gunner, and Master Siege Engineer. All of these feats have been banned in PFS play. The other feats the Buccaneer receives, "Sword and Pistol" and "Sea Legs" are both allowed. If, as I presume and as is implied above, these siege feats are the only (or at least the primary) reason the Buccaneer was banned, I argue there is no reason the archetype should not be allowed.

Archetype and Playstyle

I am not going to go into great depth defending that the Buccaneer in general does not detract from the PFS campaign setting except where the siege feats are involved. Their inclusion in the archetype fairly obviously labels the Buccaneer as intended to be a sailor/pirate style character, which is consistent with the other abilities granted and to be expected from the name. The existence of the Exchange, the Inner Sea setting, and the inclusion of the Swashbuckler, Buccaneer, and Sea Singer Bard archetypes, as well as to a lesser extent the Swashbuckler hybrid class, suggest to me that this is consistent with the setting and encouraged playstyles of the campaign, and should not warrant a ban on the archetype. This role is still supported through the deeds granted.

Siege Feats

As for siege feat replacements, I don't see that they are needed. All that has been done in removing them is preventing the Buccaneer from taking feats that detract from the campaign setting and would in most cases not be relevant. At every level changed by the Buccaneer a class feature is gained in exchange for a class feature lost - in general, each ability gained is less versatile but of comparable or slightly greater power. No bonus feats are made unavailable by the archetype, so removing the extra bonus feats simply reverts this feature to that of the Gunslinger, leaving the archetype perfectly intact for its intended playstyle.

Other Problems

The other reason I have seen cited, though not by PFS officials, is that the Grog pool mechanic is unwieldy and not thematically consistent. This I will grant has some merit, but in practice it is a combination of the grit and nimble abilities. Smart bookkeeping, e.g. a grog tally close enough to a character's AC that the dodge bonus can be easily included, largely removes the problem in game, and since the points last one hour they can relatively easily be used out of combat, thus not hindering gameplay at all. It could be said that it is a disadvantage of the archetype that the Grog pool becomes unusable when the character has no access to strong drink, but that becomes the responsibility of the player involved. If the archer runs out of arrows it is their own fault, not a problem with the system.

The only remaining reason I can think of that the Buccaneer should be disallowed is that it could create confusion with the Bard archetype of the same name, but this is hardly unique and does not seem to cause problems in other cases.

The main problem with the Buccaneer is that it could slow down gameplay, potentially introduce canon issues, and generally go against the desired theme of the campaign through the inclusion of siege feats. Since these are not allowed, and the archetype can stand relatively unchanged and unhindered without them, I would contend and request that the Buccaneer should be allowed in PFS play.

I invite further discussion and response.

4/5 *

Interesting idea, although no archetype has had feats removed and not replaced with something - to not do so basically ensures the archetype is not balanced, and to do so requires a huge amount of work since there is no obvious one-off replacement.

Unwieldy "pool"-type mechanics are the bane of many tables, though. They force the GM to do a detailed audit or just assume the player is doing it right, there isn't really a middle ground.


GM Lamplighter wrote:
no archetype has had feats removed and not replaced with something - to not do so basically ensures the archetype is not balanced, and to do so requires a huge amount of work since there is no obvious one-off replacement.

The Buccaneer archetype doesn't actually grant these feats, it just provides them as bonus feat options in addition to the grit and combat feats available to gunslingers. Removing them as options just limits customization options somewhat to keep the character within the intended boundaries of the campaign.

I'm not going to pretend I'm all that fond of the Grog pool, but I don't think it's any reason to ban an archetype outright and it's no worse than comparable abilities in other classes; the Grit system itself suffers from this somewhat.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

What? Everyone knows how much easier it is to aim when you're drunk!

Seriously, though, it could always get "un-banned" if they ever come up with other options to replace the siege feats.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

There is precedence. The Arcanist wasn't given alternatives to item crafting feats because it still had valid choices for its bonus feat slots even with the crafting feats removed.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

If the real issue is just those bonus feat options (which are notably in addition to combat and grit feats), then it should be let through. The grog mechanic doesn't sound like a factor.

For anyone who doesn't know what/where this archetype is (like I didn't), it's in the Advanced Race Guide, and it's a gunslinger archetype.


Mystic Lemur wrote:
There is precedence. The Arcanist wasn't given alternatives to item crafting feats because it still had valid choices for its bonus feat slots even with the crafting feats removed.

Thank you, I thought I had seen a similar ruling somewhere but couldn't quite place it.

This is basically my view of the Buccaneer - take out what isn't allowed and it still gives valid choices.

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / My argument - allow the Buccaneer in PFS play All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Society