Player problems(GM problem?)


Advice


i am a newer DM/GM whatever, and i have a campaign that is both faction based(3 factions) and my players really wanted to be on different factions so i let them(perhaps im not very smart) but my groups have very different approaches. one is very martial based. controlling what they do is very easy when they get out of hand. tho i almost never have to worry about them. my other group however has someone who is bound and determined to try and break the game. hes casting spells with scrolls and such that his class cant learn/isnt a high enuff level to directly learn, using his ridiculous charisma to forcefully avoid fights but still want exp, every enemy he DOES defeat hes raising as skeletons or ghouls, and worst off i REALLY want people to choose a faction and stick with it, but hes determined to use this faction to get alittle ahead and build contacts and whatever then take over the faction himself/make his own faction.

TL:DR so my questions are do i raise the difficulty of someone whos using spells higher then his level/outside his class, and do i raise the difficulty for this person with an army of undead?

and how do i punish/slow down/stop someone who is abusing his overly high score? am i allowed to?

i feel like maybe some of my players are taking advanatage of the fact that im newer and im pretty nice and lenient


As a GM, and given this instance, I would say you have two options.

1) Mea culpa. Straight up admit you've made some mistakes in how this campaign has progressed and admit you don't like the direction it's going. Inform them that you want them all to be in the same faction. Outside of the game, talk to the player who is power gaming and ask him to tone it down or scale it back. Do remember that you control access to items and gold, so the only reason he can cast from a scroll is because you gave him gold and a place where he could buy it. If you need to tell him the scrolls of those level aren't accessible, or cost more than he can afford (which they probbaly should if he can't afford to cast them yet, or least he shouldn't be able to use them repeatedly).

2) Basically do the same thing, but hide it and be sneaky. Instead of telling the players you would prefer them to work together make an external power that will destroy them if they don't work together. Or perhaps the weaker character(s) are some sort of mcguffin of some ritual and if they are not present to defeat the Overwhelming Evil the whole world will Perish!


he has the idea in his head he can just keep copying the same scroll to cast the spell


the scroll of animate undead

Scarab Sages

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Deathunseen wrote:
he has the idea in his head he can just keep copying the same scroll to cast the spell

Then you should have the idea in your head that you'll enforce the rules.


Copying a scroll would cost money. And requires the Scribe Scrolls feat. Not to mention, that you are required to know the spell before you scribe it. He does not know spells of levels higher than he can cast, so he cannot make them.

Quote:

Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)

You can create magic scrolls.

Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.

Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.

So, if he is endlessly copying scrolls and using them either he doesn't understand the rules, or is taking advantage of your lack of knowledge about the game system.

If it is the first, then it is somewhat excusable. If it is the second and he is taking advantage of you, then I would audit everything he does and keep careful check on him since it seems that he is not a reliable or honest player.

As Duiker says, you need to enforce the rules.

Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. It cost 375 gp to purcahse a scroll of it, plus it must be made with an expensive material component that isn't covered in the normal cost of a scroll, a onyx worth 25 gp per HD of creature(s) to be raised. Also keep in mind the scroll cost is based on the lowest caster level available to cast the spell which is 5th level caster. Also Animate Dead creates creatures based on the caster HD, and the total number you can control is based on caster level too. If he start creating too many undead the become uncontrolled and will no longer obey his commands.

You're caster is either ignoring the rules or is ignorant of them, and that is why he is so overpowered.


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It sounds like your player has maxed out use magic device and diplomacy.

You don't mention what level, but the DC for use magic device is 20 + caster level of the scroll, so even with a pretty good UMD, it is often a tough check. If you are not calculating the DC correctly, that might explain the problem. The other question on this is where is he getting all these powerful (and expensive) scrolls? It is possible you have given out too much treasure for their level, which can skew and encounter.

For diplomacy, pay attention to the diplomacy skill. To change someones attitude towards you takes a minute. If they aren't hostile you can request they listen to you (as a standard action) but if they are hostile, you can't do that.

Animated dead usually aren't a huge problem, Ghouls (did you actually mean Zombies?) can only be created with Create Undead, not animated dead, and unlike animate dead that spell requires a separate means of controlling them.

I'm not clear on your factions. It seems to me that a character that uses a faction to build contacts, get ahead, and wants to eventually advance to control it isn't being unreasonable or doing anything unexpected.

The fundamental issue though is that obviously what this player is doing is reducing your fun. It isn't clear if it interfering with the fun of the other players or not, but regardless it is an issue. Absolutely don't try and punish them in game. You can, and should, apply the rules correctly and fairly in game, but punishing a player is not the GMs job.

You should instead talk to the player. Try and explain why you are having issues, and ask the player for ideas on how they can be resolved. If you can get the player invested in improving the game with the vision you have for it you will have a much better chance of success then if you try and force the player to act the way you want.

Finally, if all else fails, there are people who simply don't game well together. I have some friends who I like, but don't game with because the styles and games we like are different. I have other friends I game with in certain types of games, but not others, and friends I enjoy in any game. It is better to not game with someone than to feud with them over a game.


Let me start off by saying this really is an "advice" section question rather than "rule questions" section.

However, to answer your question, I dont believe in "controlling what they do" or "punish/slow down/stop" a player or a group. The simple answer is if he is creating problems in the game by depriving other players of fun encounters or situations then try talking to him about it, if not remove him from the group but if he is not hindering other pc's let him be. If he casts spells who are too strong for his level from scrolls than stop giving him access to high level scrolls, if he has so much charisma (which is your fault to begin with) that he can forcefully avoid fights put enemies that cant be negotiated with, if he walks around with an army of undead constantly then introduce undead hunters (anyway most respectable cities or towns would not knowingly allow undead within their walls). Otherwise I dont know why you would try and herd your players into playing exactly what you want, being a DM is about letting your players have fun. Rewarding a player who put a long term plan into motion (like eventually taking over a faction or creating one) with success is extremely gratifying for them, basically let players know that they can accomplish what they want EVEN if it is not exactly what you planned (If you dont want him to do it when he is level 3, which is understandable, let him know that It can be done eventually just not now. Maybe the leader is too strong, or maybe he is too loved etc...)
You have an infinite possibility of things you can do to thwart players, but you shouldn't.
It's about having fun, not putting your players in a videogame with invisible walls and then punishing them because they want to choose a different path...


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If a PC avoids a fight but still completes the encounter, they should still get XP. XP is not just for killing things. You shouldn't penalize players for solving problems a different way than you intended.

Sovereign Court

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Eventually folks will catch wind of some guy running around with corpses all the time and send a paladin after him I would think.


Deathunseen wrote:

i am a newer DM/GM whatever, and i have a campaign that is both faction based(3 factions) and my players really wanted to be on different factions so i let them(perhaps im not very smart) but my groups have very different approaches. one is very martial based. controlling what they do is very easy when they get out of hand. tho i almost never have to worry about them. my other group however has someone who is bound and determined to try and break the game. hes casting spells with scrolls and such that his class cant learn/isnt a high enuff level to directly learn, using his ridiculous charisma to forcefully avoid fights but still want exp, every enemy he DOES defeat hes raising as skeletons or ghouls, and worst off i REALLY want people to choose a faction and stick with it, but hes determined to use this faction to get alittle ahead and build contacts and whatever then take over the faction himself/make his own faction.

TL:DR so my questions are do i raise the difficulty of someone whos using spells higher then his level/outside his class, and do i raise the difficulty for this person with an army of undead?

and how do i punish/slow down/stop someone who is abusing his overly high score? am i allowed to?

i feel like maybe some of my players are taking advanatage of the fact that im newer and im pretty nice and lenient

You have two issues. 1) You have some house-rules that you don't know of, allowing your player to do some things he shouldn't mechanically. 2) You're not wanting to let your players contribute to the story. PCs don't go out of line. You don't control them. They don't have to do what you want. If their actions have consequences because that is how the NPCs would react, so be it. Viewing your players not following your faction idea as a problem is a GM issue, not a player one.


i feel like people are getting the wrong idea, i am VERY willing to let them influence the story, in fact most of the time i encourage it. the only thing to me is that its kind of propitious to believe that some sorc can bust into the scene of this 3 way massive war and hope to topple all 3 of the factions when each faction has a god helping them. this whole problem came about BECAUSE im too allowing for people to do whatever they want story wise and i dont appreciate you implying to the contrary Marcus Robert Hosler.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Viewing your players not following your faction idea as a problem is a GM issue, not a player one.

I'm not sure I agree with this. If the faction idea was part of the campaign set-up then it is the players job to create a character that wants to be part of a faction.

If I run Skull and Shackles, I expect my players to make characters that want to be pirates, not cleanse the World Wound. When I run Kingmaker, I expect my players to make characters that want to run a Kingdom, not be pirates.

However, it is important that these guidelines be clear and that the players understand the parameters of the campaign.


Deathunseen wrote:
i feel like people are getting the wrong idea, i am VERY willing to let them influence the story, in fact most of the time i encourage it. the only thing to me is that its kind of propitious to believe that some sorc can bust into the scene of this 3 way massive war and hope to topple all 3 of the factions when each faction has a god helping them. this whole problem came about BECAUSE im too allowing for people to do whatever they want story wise and i dont appreciate you implying to the contrary Marcus Robert Hosler.

See and in my head as a GM, the player should be free to try that and if that gets them killed that's just a natural consequence of role playing. The reason I GM is because I want the players to surprise me. I want them to do things I never thought of. That's my fun.

I also don't see a problem with the PCs thinking that they are special or that the world revolves around them.


If the player wants to be a necromancer then let him.deal with the consequences of it. As for him using the scrolls be sure he is following the rules. Also remember scrolls use the lowest DC possible.

Grand Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:
If a PC avoids a fight but still completes the encounter, they should still get XP. XP is not just for killing things. You shouldn't penalize players for solving problems a different way than you intended.

I agree. No boiling of Ant Hills!


Dave Justus wrote:
When I run Kingmaker, I expect my players to make characters that want to run a Kingdom, not be pirates.

Why not both?

Nothing says the king can't run around the country side taking whatever he wants from his helpless peasants with a crew of angry scalawags.


Maybe if you wanted to create a faction based game you should have asked players what faction they wanted to be part of and augmented the factions from there. I am currently in a party that has usurped the party leader after they needed to be resurrected 7 times and after the 6th time players wanted to create a union within the party to overthrow their leaders many bad decisions. Moral of the story, player characters are chaotic neutral, clever, and rowdy, so remember to rein them in when needed. Also I wanna know the deity situation in that game, are there any scorned deities the sorcerer can get sponsored by? Because that seems like it would be a great plot hook story-wise.


My general tip is to double check this character. It seems like he's doing things that can't be done. Example is the scroll thing pointed out by Claxon. And to add to that, I'm pretty sure a scroll isn't usable after being copied. Also, how did he get such a high charisma score? And he can't control undeads just because he raises them. In Animate Dead: you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.

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