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So I was looking at the reincarnate spell and this question occurred to me.
If charisma is altered by physical appearance, why doesn't reincarnate change it?
You could literally be the most hideous scarred troglodyte on earth and come back as a fairly normal looking elf, body's not marred or broken as its brand new. Yet your charisma would be the same.
In the same vein, you could be the most beautiful person in the world, come back with a completely different body and expect.... to still be incredibly beautiful?
I think of charisma as an overall stat that may include beauty but definitely not defined by it. In my opinion, the basis of your argument if flawed.
Hitler had a very high charisma but he was not attractive.
Jessica Simpson, to many, is attractive but she does not have a high charisma.
Natalie Portman has a high charisma and is attractive.
The list is unending.
PS feel free to swap in any names you prefer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.
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cute, hot blooded loudmouth girl = high charisma in my book. There is more than one road to attractiveness than standard "hot".Personally I would say I am a shining example of hwo CHA is not tied to physical stats xD.
I am small, petite, and quite honestly more "cute" than anything approaching "intimidating" or "beautiful" but out of my group of friends I am usually the one taking charge... I've been called... rather assertive more than once xD. And I was student body president in high school and I am current president for the junior class in my University... so my "charisma" comes more from me being able to mentally beat people down (and the fact that I took 3 years of debate probably helps a little bit! XD) more than any level of being "the hot girl in school" or "being the big person in school to scare people into voting for me"
Daw thanx xD.
But yeah, pretty much I would say I am the typical Diplomamancer (dumped Str, high Cha) but focused more on intimidate, despite my physical features not screaming "beautiful" :P
Thats another issue people assume intimidate means you have be "freaking huge/scary" to intimidate people. Really its about attitude, leverage, and power all of which can be used by anybody. Someone puny with high CHA just has a nuanced understanding of intimidation.
Thats another issue people assume intimidate means you have be "freaking huge/scary" to intimidate people. Really its about attitude, leverage, and power all of which can be used by anybody. Someone puny with high CHA just has a nuanced understanding of intimidation.cute, hot blooded loudmouth girl = high charisma in my book. There is more than one road to attractiveness than standard "hot".Personally I would say I am a shining example of hwo CHA is not tied to physical stats xD.
I am small, petite, and quite honestly more "cute" than anything approaching "intimidating" or "beautiful" but out of my group of friends I am usually the one taking charge... I've been called... rather assertive more than once xD. And I was student body president in high school and I am current president for the junior class in my University... so my "charisma" comes more from me being able to mentally beat people down (and the fact that I took 3 years of debate probably helps a little bit! XD) more than any level of being "the hot girl in school" or "being the big person in school to scare people into voting for me"
Daw thanx xD.
But yeah, pretty much I would say I am the typical Diplomamancer (dumped Str, high Cha) but focused more on intimidate, despite my physical features not screaming "beautiful" :P
Haha true true. Another example I like to give of that is Ciel from the Anime Black Butler
Now I feel sad, charisma is my dump stat. :P I got Int followed by Con as my main stats, with wisdom and charisma dumps.
Lol don't worry, I have Wis as my HARDCORE dump stat xD...
I can't make a sense motive check for the life of me and I tend to get caught with my foot in my mouth a lot xD.
Oh and I got like... maybe 9 con xD... I don't get sick but I really don't like pain xD
Wis dump here, though my Cha is likely not impressive. And yet every character personality quiz on the entire internet continually pegs me as a cleric.
Worst. Array. Ever.
lol Every test I take tells me to be a barbarian
*looks into the mirror*
-.-.....
I find I funny sometimes how I am going to try and be a shrink and I have the anger problem xD
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I dont relate charisma to appearance or beauty or even personality at all.
I relate it to 'force of presence' or
That ineffable quality when a person walks through the door and the room goes quiet.
People just 'know you have *arrived*'
Horrible thing for a thief or assassin to have.
Where a person with low charisma might be a gorgeous person who kicks the door in and announces to the room that he has finally graced them with his presence... and thus it might be tough to ignore him but his arrival doesnt really have any significant impact, a practitioner of shadowmagic could gracefully swish in the door trying his best not to make a sound or even be noticed and keep a low profile, but everyone in the room cant help but feel a sort of 'whoa...' who's that guy?
When the gorgeous low charisma 7 foot barn door shaped bearded guy in the bar switches into 'mean drunk mode' and knocks over the table with a 'how DARE YOU!'... all he does is start a bar fight. When someone cops a feel on the high charisma quiet homely unassuming barmaid and she wheels around on clicked heels, clenches her tiny fist and pipes out a fiendish 'how DARE YOU!' the whole bar shuts up.
I dont think its purely a matter of 'the boisterous loudmouth is always the one compensating for his lack of charisma while the quiet ones are the ones with powerful presences...' but charisma to me is the 'feeling' that no matter how small or homely... if you 'decided' it was time for you to own the room it wouldnt take anything more than you simply standing up and having intent... people would just 'know' that it was 'you time'. And even the boisterous loudmouth would get the hint.
And when the high charisma character is feeling engaging and comfortable and happy and gregarious like the loudmouths... the charisma is the difference between a guy you enjoy watching make a fool of himself and the guy you REALLY enjoy listening to and hanging out with. In comedians its the difference between a guy who just thinks he's funny and you're kinda laughing at him, or a guy who you'd really wanna hang out with because you just 'get that inimitable feeling' that he's a genuinely cool and funny guy.
A low charisma person can hold your attention, but it is abjectly through concerted effort. A high charisma person can snatch your attention away from all distractions, simply by a gestureless noiseless willing of you to notice. If the charisma gets high enough even 'intent' and 'will' is no longer necessary or relevent... You might not be able to help noticing them even if they dont want you to.
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I dont relate charisma to appearance or beauty or even personality at all.
I relate it to 'force of presence' or
That ineffable quality when a person walks through the door and the room goes quiet.
People just 'know you have *arrived*'
Horrible thing for a thief or assassin to have.
Where a person with low charisma might be a gorgeous person who kicks the door in and announces to the room that he has finally graced them with his presence... and thus it might be tough to ignore him but his arrival doesnt really have any significant impact, a practitioner of shadowmagic could gracefully swish in the door trying his best not to make a sound or even be noticed, but everyone in the room cant help but feel a sort of 'whoa...' who's that guy?
*ding Ding**ding ding* Assassin, Cheliaxian empire, arriving *stinger*
i'm a tiny little girl who missed puberty just like Noireve here, but i'm not very confident, i have a minor cult following and generally leave a lasting impression, despite not being able to speak, but i'm not a trained diplomancer, i'm more like your typical fantasy wizard, just with carmendine monk levels instead of spells
i use intellect for everything i can, using application of precision and my 179 IQ to quickly learn and apply a way to use my intellect in place of the desired attribute
as a carmendine monk 1/otaku 2 with the imporverished adult lolita archetype, i have learned to use with time, my intellect on a diplomacy check by coming up with a reason to justify my case instead of persuading and coming up with clever remarks on the whiteboard for my boyfriend to read.
Just to add to the conversation, you can see how Charisma plays out really well in professional wrestling. Yeah, I said it. Hear me out...
For example, you can see how the different wrestlers carry the presence of their characters. The guys with high charisma are much more convincing of their character, and get a much stronger reaction from the crowd, despite how attractive/ugly they are. The biggest names in wrestling all have major charisma; Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, and newer guys like Bray Wyatt; when they talk, the crowd listens. When they taunt, it's much more genuine. They get noticed, for good or ill, no matter what they do.
You can also tell who has very little charisma, again, despite physical attractiveness/ugliness. You might see a "jobber"(wrestler who is there to lose and make the other wrestler look good) who out on the street would be a very attractive person. But, their personality is very bland, there words do very little to stir the crowd(if they even get a chance to talk), and by the time the match is over, you almost forget they were even there.
I know I'll probably get chided for admitting to being a wrestling fan, but I am one. When you get past the knowledge of it being scripted, and really start to follow it for the stories involved, it's very entertaining. As far as RPG's go, wrestling is a great resource for showing character development, portrayals of comparisons for things like how different size/types of characters might do combat; dexterous type-cruiserweights versus strength-focused heavyweights, etc. I draw a lot of gaming resources from wrestling.
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It's cool man.
I really liked the wrestling RPG that came out a while back.
Sports entertainment is really just a soap opera.
Exactly. I get a lot of weird looks, and the inevitable "hurdur, ya know it's fake, right?" all the time. It's scripted, but a lot of the actual moves are real. The slams hurt. Sure, they go to great lengths to reduce injury, and much of the action is choreographed, but it's not as "fake" as people like to make it out to be.
A lot of stuff happens spontaneously that drastically alters the story, on the spot. Just over the weekend, one of WWE's biggest, up-and-coming guys(Roman Reigns) had to have hernia surgery, which throws off the story in a major way(he was on his way to being a title-contender). It's interesting to see how the story adjusts and works everything in.
When the action is scripted like that, Charisma is HUGE. Careers live and die by how well someone can grab the audiences attention.
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^^^ true story.
Granted I started falling out of wrestling after WWE became a thing (after the WWF had to change its name for the pandas...)
For every person that misses that stat, there's between a hundred and a thousand who are more than glad that this, along with Unearthed Arcana's other bad ideas, such as the barbarian with a fixation on destroying magic items, never saw print again.In the 2nd edition rules, there was a seventh stat within the pages of Unearthed Arcana, Comeliness. I was disappointed that it didn't make the cut in the next edition when Wizards revived it.
The 1985 edition of Unearthed Arcana was for AD&D 1st Edition. It had the distinction of being Gary Gygax' last hardcover before being forced out of TSR.
I was of the opinion that the book was kind of a stinker. The book's options included quite a few things that were greatly overpowered, and I knew a lot of GMs that basically banned the book at their tables. (I was one of them.)
And, honestly, I thought the Comeliness stat was the least useful part of the book. I don't recall any subsequent AD&D hardcover that used that stat, and I was just fine with that.
The next time I encountered a hardcover that attempted to re-introduce the Comeliness stat was in the poorly-received 2003 hardcover Book of Erotic Fantasy by The VALAR Project. It didn't really work there, either.
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The next time I encountered a hardcover that attempted to re-introduce the Comeliness stat was in the poorly-received 2003 hardcover Book of Erotic Fantasy
Then you must have missed the 2nd edition "Player's Option" book, "Skills & Powers" where the 6 standard stats were broken down into 2 sub-stats each, with Charisma having "Leadership and Appearance" as its sub-stats...
To my knowledge, there was only one module that made full use of the Player's Option books, and that was "The Gates of Firestorm Peak".
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I miss players option. I liked a lot of the concepts in that book, and I think it came out at the wrong time and was pushed to the wrong audience.
Also, loved book of erotic fantasy. Use it in my games to a limited extent when things get carnal and a roll *has* to be made.
Digitalelf: That's the first I've heard of the AD&D 2nd ed "Player's Options" book.
My group got sick of D&D and fantasy RPGs in general in the early 1990s. After our last AD&D campaign ended in 1992, we switched to GURPS, Champions, and Call of Cthulhu until D&D 3.0 came out in 2000. We only ever used the 2nd ed PHB, DMG, and some of the Complete Handbooks. (We kept using the 1st ed monster books. None of us liked the loose-leaf notebook concept for the Monstrous Compendia.)
Freehold, I agree with you re: Book of Erotic Fantasy. It has a bad rep, but was remarkably mature and sex-positive. I think many people just looked at the art (digitally-manipulated photographs) and dismissed the whole book as soft-core porn. (Or, worse, a re-hash of F.A.T.A.L.)
The problem with the BoEF wasn't that it had porn illustrations, but that the illustrations were BAD, sometimes hilariously so. The actual rules were somewhat decent, though forced into the general d20 structure of the time, meaning feats and (most annoying) prestige classes. That said, it's not a style of playing that's easy to find players for, and arguably, the book failed at what it wanted to do.
Love and Sex in the Ninth World manages in its 13 pages to do a better job, I'd say.
For me personally, my dump stat is strength. Nothing wrong with my intelligence though, and people seem to listen when I talk and turn to me when they need someone to decide something. Generally, though, I'd say 20 point buy is being quite generous.
Digitalelf: That's the first I've heard of the AD&D 2nd ed "Player's Options" book.
There were some good things in there, some less good.
Much was considered oh-so-broken (a wizard in studded leather; sacrilegious!) and a book for min-maxers (a paladin who can use weapon specialisation; you dirty powergamer!).
It was the dawn of character customization, even if it was still pale in comparison to 3ed in terms of system mastery.
I fear we must disagree here, sissyl, although I do think with a more serious approach the book might have done better. That said, this is sex we are talking about- millions of dissenting opinions over something so very basic.
HOW DARE YOU???!!!??? You refuse to agree with me about... something? =)
Digitalelf: That's the first I've heard of the AD&D 2nd ed "Player's Options" book.There were some good things in there, some less good.
Much was considered oh-so-broken (a wizard in studded leather; sacrilegious!) and a book for min-maxers (a paladin who can use weapon specialisation; you dirty powergamer!).
It was the dawn of character customization, even if it was still pale in comparison to 3ed in terms of system mastery.
agreed. As much as I love 3.x and pathfinder, I would have liked to go further down skills and powers road. I think the min maxing and other issues in the system would have been handled admirably by the book if allowed to thrive.
Many of the stats are semi related amalgamations.
Constitution for example: I can barely walk down the street without getting winded, but can tolerate extremes of temperature, blows to the head and rarely get sick. In a D&D world they're all the same thing.
Tangent on Skills and Power; Player's Option
agreed. As much as I love 3.x and pathfinder, I would have liked to go further down skills and powers road. I think the min maxing and other issues in the system would have been handled admirably by the book if allowed to thrive.Digitalelf: That's the first I've heard of the AD&D 2nd ed "Player's Options" book.There were some good things in there, some less good.
Much was considered oh-so-broken (a wizard in studded leather; sacrilegious!) and a book for min-maxers (a paladin who can use weapon specialisation; you dirty powergamer!).
It was the dawn of character customization, even if it was still pale in comparison to 3ed in terms of system mastery.
In retrospect, there wasn't that much game-breaking power-gaming stuff going on even then. Not to the degree that 3rd ed will bring anyways. It's just that is was new.
A ranger that can climb in wilderness as a rogue? A paladin who can specialize in a weapon like a fighter? A wizard proficient with a sword? These are not even raising an eyebrow nowadays, but it was breaking the class niche for the first (official) time I guess, and for the first time players were allowed to go scratch for a +1 here for a -1 there. Basically, it was a "built your own kit" toolbox, and most of the "abuse" I heard was when S&P were added to already generous kits.
We switched back to D&D because we had a hankering for some old-school dungeon crawling, and found that D&D 3.0 seemed to strike the right balance between level-based and skill-based systems. Aside from the occasional one-short, we've been playing 3.0/3.5/PF since about 2001.
(Honestly, I'm looking took give Fate a try sometime soon.)
I think the longest lasting effect of BoEF was that it convinced other 3PPs that they didn't have to use WotC's d20 license to sell games, and just use the OGL instead.
Tangent on Skills and Power; Player's Option** spoiler omitted **
Oh my goodness yes. The myrmidon and a few other groaners were the worst examples I saw when sap was added to the mix.
For at least three editions running it was standard practice to toss an over the top book(s) out prior to switching to a new edition. Unearthed Arcana from 1e, Player Options from 2e, and the Book of Nine Swords from 3e.
For at least three editions running it was standard practice to toss an over the top book(s) out prior to switching to a new edition. Unearthed Arcana from 1e, Player Options from 2e, and the Book of Nine Swords from 3e.
Hm. Good point.
Hm. Good point.For at least three editions running it was standard practice to toss an over the top book(s) out prior to switching to a new edition. Unearthed Arcana from 1e, Player Options from 2e, and the Book of Nine Swords from 3e.
Interesting observation. Indeed, you can see much of the next edition in each of these books.
I wonder if they were "test runs" for the inevitable upcoming edition, or if a new edition became necessary after the new ideas brought by these books.
I am not sure about the first two. But a developer did tell me that the Tome of Battle was indeed a test run for some of the ideas they were going to use in 4e. It is likely the others filled similar roles.
Makes me wonder about Pathfinder and Pathfinder Unchained...