Animal Companion as trap activator ?


Advice


So,my player have Inqusitor with domain granting him animal companion. Great fun, but I have issues with treating his big cat as trap activator ( detect magic usually give him answer about school of magic, evocation= fireball-like trap),cause improved evasion.

So, is this kind of trick reasonable? Animal have INT of 3..


Depending on the complexity of the trap, certainly.


I'm looking for complex advice, I know that RAW this is possible.


Advice on what?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Is the problem a concern that the character is mistreating his pet?


I think that putting his pet into every single trap is a form of mistreating and endangering life of pet. Henchmens/cohorts/pets IMHO should't be treated as cannon fodder. But before I will speak with my player I would be glad hearing opinion about that from fellow gamers. because maybe I'm wrong in this case.


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If proper steps are done to ensure that it is a reflex save (and you indicate that that is happening) and the AC has very little chance of being killed then I don't think it is a very severe case of mistreatment.

Basically, if a PC with similar abilities would do that (and I think it is reasonable), then I don't think it is wrong for a player to expect a companion to do it. Frankly it isn't any worse than hauling them into fights with bloodthirsty monsters. Yes, they might get hurt, but that is the job.

Now, sending an unskilled henchman down the hall just to see if there is any trap is an entirely different thing. It is also different if a PC has better numbers for the save (and improved evasion), but the AC is being sent in just because they are the AC.

Bottom line, if the AC is the best creature in the party to accomplish that job, and doing it that way is the most efficient way the party has to get past an obstacle I would except that.


He has or should have animal handle skill. Plus tricks that his AC can do. None of them has anything to do with being fodder for traps. Now that's not saying he cant use set pet to set off traps. Well first thing i would do is make traps that reset so the pet setting it off does nothing for the rest of the party. Any good DM should be adding some anyhow. Second i would be forcing him to do handle animal skill check to push the pet to be fodder. Its not something anyone creature with or with out intelligence is going to do willing. So that's how i would handle it. Tho to be honest i would talk to him out of game and tell him his pet is getting pissed off as being used as fodder and will leave you soon and the same thing will happen if you get another AC. But that's what i would do.
If your not for that. Do the skill check for pushing your animal and traps that rearm themselves. Or just make a trap that outright kills the AC. I mean just because it gets evasions doesn't mean its going to say oh yes me now wanna trigger all traps.

Lantern Lodge

Well... I have an countered a rogue who relies on his evasion to avoid most traps. He usually "disables" a trap by repeatedly triggering it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What trick is he using for "Set off this trap"?

Deliver might work, as might fetch, assuming there is an item in the correct area.

If the animal detects something they think is a trap, they would hesitate to go into it. If they keep getting hurt after doing the same trick, I think that would be reasonable to require a "push" animal handling check.

The character is risking his animal companion getting killed. If it does die, his replacement animal companion doesn't come trained.

The god who gives the animal domain may not be pleased, depending on how it was done. On the other hand, you can give the animal an order to Guard and (with proper training) it will fight to protect the person indicated. The trap may be less dangerous than combat.

Scarab Sages

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While Seek and Detect can both move an animal into trap blasting range, Druids local 704 highly opposes this practice. We especially enjoy it when we dominate the animal companion into attacking its owner to liberate the poor thing, and it doesn't even bother to resist the spell.

Sovereign Court

If the player intends to make that his standard procedure then I'd make, at minimum, the inquisitor teach his AC a special 'trip trap' trick via handle animal and make it count against the cap on that companion's known tricks.

I'd also work in some plots about having to work to retain the trust of the critter he keeps trying to get killed.


Flutter wrote:

While Seek and Detect can both move an animal into trap blasting range, Druids local 704 highly opposes this practice. We especially enjoy it when we dominate the animal companion into attacking its owner to liberate the poor thing, and it doesn't even bother to resist the spell.

Is it against Ranger local 302, or Cavalier 904, or Mad Dog Barbarian 114, or Divine Commander Warpriest local 1211, or any class using Animal Ally, or Chivalry Inquisition Inquisitors...

Well, frankly I could go on for a while...

A lot of people have pets that AREN'T hippies and don't mind using them as fodder. It probably will nix you being a good alignment, but I doubt there's much more penalty than that.


I like all of you guys thinking. They all sound great to me. I didn't think what trick would work but fetch would seem to be the best one i would guess.
A human would get tired of being used as a trap setter offer, why wouldn't your animal companion?

Sovereign Court

thegreenteagamer wrote:

A lot of people have pets that AREN'T hippies and don't mind using them as fodder. It probably will nix you being a good alignment, but I doubt there's much more penalty than that.

It's up to the GM to draw the line, but there are lines you can't cross if you want to keep your AC. You can't torture it and expect to keep it, for example. Most would agree you can't amputate parts of it for eating and expect to retain the loyalty of the animal. Some would say "how would it know that it's own leg you're eating!?!" But, for sanity's sake, most GMs would say that if you're a big enough douche to treat your AC that way, it'll come across in your personality and the AC will sense it and abandon you.

Is using your AC as a landmine detector on par with using it as a walking larder? I'd say yes, but my table isn't everyone else's table. Draw your lines where you will.


deusvult wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:

A lot of people have pets that AREN'T hippies and don't mind using them as fodder. It probably will nix you being a good alignment, but I doubt there's much more penalty than that.

It's up to the GM to draw the line, but there are lines you can't cross if you want to keep your AC. You can't torture it and expect to keep it, for example. Most would agree you can't amputate parts of it for eating and expect to retain the loyalty of the animal. Some would say "how would it know that it's own leg you're eating!?!" But, for sanity's sake, most GMs would say that if you're a big enough douche to treat your AC that way, it'll come across in your personality and the AC will sense it and abandon you.

Is using your AC as a landmine detector on par with using it as a walking larder? I'd say yes, but my table isn't everyone else's table. Draw your lines where you will.

I would draw the line at my table as well. It just doesn't sit right with me. Maybe its because i love druids and would never think of doing something like that to one of my AC. But i want to give the best advice i could on how one could let it happen in there game. Maybe i was way off but i thought i came up with some ok idea's

Grand Lodge

You know... that big cat may not like being mistreated if it ever became awakened. Which may result in a dead inquisitor.


Why would you do this to your friend?! I thought animal companions were best buddies that go on adventures with you and you care about them. If you're just going to abuse it then your alignment should change.


Malwing wrote:
Why would you do this to your friend?!

I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of an animal companion, special mount, or other pet type that says they are your friend.

I could easily see a NE druid that USES nature for his own gains doing this.

Sovereign Court

thegreenteagamer wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why would you do this to your friend?!

I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of an animal companion, special mount, or other pet type that says they are your friend.

I could easily see a NE druid that USES nature for his own gains doing this.

And yet at the same time, what's the AC's motivation to run around with some humanoid? It isn't to be used as a tool for the humanoid's ends.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why would you do this to your friend?!

I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of an animal companion, special mount, or other pet type that says they are your friend.

I could easily see a NE druid that USES nature for his own gains doing this.

Why would you do this to your asset?! I thought animal companions were supposed to be useful minions that go on adventures with you and you care about what they can do for you. If you're going to abuse it then you're just wasting potential and not revering the forces within your power.


deusvult wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why would you do this to your friend?!

I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of an animal companion, special mount, or other pet type that says they are your friend.

I could easily see a NE druid that USES nature for his own gains doing this.

And yet at the same time, what's the AC's motivation to run around with some humanoid? It isn't to be used as a tool for the humanoid's ends.

Simple Classical Conditioning and Operant Conditioning. The thing is, quite simply, trained to do so. Guard dogs aren't friends of the owners of the buildings they protect. They are trained to do so. Whether it is through reinforcement of desired behavior or punishment of disobeying, the thing has learned what behavior is expected of it.

Oh, I'm sure the majority of ACs are "friends" of their owners, but my summary is that such a thing is not necessary. The relationship could be a simple slave/master paradigm, especially in the event of an evil druid, ranger, cavalier, etc.

When you can simply summon another in 24 hours and train it in a week's time, if you're evil, it's quite frankly a disposable asset.

Sovereign Court

thegreenteagamer wrote:
deusvult wrote:

And yet at the same time, what's the AC's motivation to run around with some humanoid? It isn't to be used as a tool for the humanoid's ends.

Simple Classical Conditioning and Operant Conditioning. The thing is, quite simply, trained to do so. Guard dogs aren't friends of the owners of the buildings they protect. They are trained to do so. Whether it is through reinforcement of desired behavior or punishment of disobeying, the thing has learned what behavior is expected of it.

Animals that are mistreated stick around only because they don't have any other choice. An evil druid in Pathfinder isn't keeping his wolf penned up in a dogfighting kennel. It'll leave the second it wants to if it's not treated sufficiently well. Animal Companions are not magically compelled to stick around and take mistreatment like a summoned critter is.


deusvult wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why would you do this to your friend?!

I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of an animal companion, special mount, or other pet type that says they are your friend.

I could easily see a NE druid that USES nature for his own gains doing this.

And yet at the same time, what's the AC's motivation to run around with some humanoid? It isn't to be used as a tool for the humanoid's ends.

I see this trap business as no different than using your animal companion as a mode of transportation.

Sovereign Court

That's fine for you. Like I said, draw the lines where you will. Perhaps an AC that always makes its saves vs traps finds the ordeal fun whereas a horse ridden nearly to death would like less the idea of being a mount.


deusvult wrote:
That's fine for you. Like I said, draw the lines where you will. Perhaps an AC that always makes its saves vs traps finds the ordeal fun whereas a horse ridden nearly to death would like less the idea of being a mount.

I still prefer the good ol' Kobold on a leash tactic anyway.


Herbatnik wrote:
I'm looking for complex advice, I know that RAW this is possible.

My solution, Its definitely evil, the PC is willingly putting a creature that is loyal to him in harms way with the animal not immediately being aware or believing it is fighting for its master.. The animal may not stand for it and attempt to leave so the player may be forced to chain the animal up when needed. I wouldn't see the player may need to constantly convince the animal that the trick he is using isn't always harmful otherwise the handle animal check may need to be increased steadily to force the creature to perform the trick.


I don't think it is necessarily a terrible thing outright.

Is the Inq. good, neutral or evil? If good, I would expect him to be somewhat hesitant in the least.

Does he use the cat for only traps that are reflex, if he knows about it, to save and the cat have an exceptional ref save? If yes then its not terrible.

Does he show compassion for the AC afterwards, providing rewards?

In North America hunting dogs would be used to go after larger mammals, sometimes even a puma or black bear.

Like I said, not the worst thing in the world. At least he isn't strapping an alchemist's bomb to it....

Scarab Sages

Herbatnik wrote:
Animal have INT of 3..

If it has an ability score like INT 3, its smart enough to know being misused by its handler, in its head its probably made the connection of "When handler send me out, I get hurt, I don't like being hurt". Many animals tend to have an INT of 2. A single point into INT makes it so it can learn feats and skills that are normally far too "complex" for its mind; think of a primate animal companion learning Rapid Reload, seems silly but it is something that a primate could learn with INT 3. It could also learn "complex" martial arts styles, skill focus feats, among other things. If the player has been kind afterwards to the animal companion and is only doing it for reflex-based traps, I suppose the animal companion could almost see it as a "game".

I could understand if the Inquisitor has done it a total of three times within fifteen sessions if he was given no other option. However if this is regular habit, it might be seen as "evil".

As a GM, if you are not comfortable with the behavior make it harder for the player, as it seems as though the handle animal checks are getting "strangely" harder to make like the animal companion is becoming weary of its handler. If that subtle push doesn't get the player's attention, you may want to start a tally system to see how many "evil" vs "good" actions that the player has done to see if an alignment change is in order.

I am not familiar with your player, so I cannot say if their actions are "good" or "evil".


Pro:
1) Animal Companions are replaceable. You can get a new one every day.
2) They can be seen as tools
3) There are some deities that don't mind. If the AC dies, then it was too weak to survive.

Con:
1) Most deities are protectors of animals when they grant the domain.
2)Int 3+ is smart enough to break conditioning.


Why bother teaching the animal tricks? Just get a smaller one and throw it.


Actually why bother using your AC at all, buy a bunch of goats or something?

Scarab Sages

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Nature is neutral as well. If you're telling it you don't care about it, its going to stop caring about you.

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