Technically, Roc is not a legal choice of animal companion for Rangers which is where you appear to getting the animal companion from.
Also, how are you going to reload your crossbow. It may be a free action, but still requires two hands as far as I know. You would need to drop one weapon to reload the other, and now that weapon cords are a move action this makes it much more difficult.
Also, should probably remove the energy damage enhancements. It inflates DPR, but at this high a level many things are likely to be immune or completely resist the energy damage you have listed. For what it's worth, everyone should just ignore it really (if they are gong to post competing builds).
Essentially all you've done here is build a gunslinger that abuses crossbows instead of guns. Now that bolt AC is a thing, I think crossbow are actually good, but does require 5 level of Bolt Ace. Otherwise, they still stink.
I'm hearing a lot of stuff that only makes this viable at level 20, or at least not until very late levels.
What about a build at level 12? What happens then? This gives us an idea of what it could do in PFS?
What about at level 16? This is where most Adventure Paths end. What does it's stat look like then?
Also, lets abide wealth by level rules as presuming crafted items are universally available is probably a bad idea.
Looking at the original build...
Furious can only be placed on melee weapons.
One thing to keep in mind is that Gravity Bow, Haste, and Instant Enemy eat up 3 rounds of doing damage. It can take 3-5 rounds post-buffing to make up the damage lost during a buffing round. For example, since Gravity Bow only nets you 1 more point of damage per round, you're better off not casting it at all. (Going from 1d6 to 1d8 is never worth losing a round of full attacks.)
With your feats tied up in combat, I don't know how you plan to train in master crafter and get a high enough caster level to make your custom magic items.
I will take that on Claxon.
The questions I am trying to answer is "Does bolt ace make a viable crossbow build?" "Can they be as good as an archer?"
I will say that for the first 4 levels then answer is a clear no to both but I am not sure it is so bad it can not be played through. I think by 12 is will be a very solid build.
Dropping the AC will help on WBL.
For the 12 level build I think I would want G5/R6/F1. 3 more fighter and a barb for the 16.
I went twf since bows can not as a way to get more attacks but Monk archers get stupid.
I think if you make a Bolt Ace (who doesn't dual wield) you can still be every bit as competitive with DPR as an archer who can't dual wield.
Dex to damage is a big deal, stacked with deadly Aim should give you very viable damage. A ranger would potentially have more since he can get FE bonus, but if you only go Bolt Ace 5 and then go Weapon Master with the gloves that enhance Weapon Training you'll catch back up some and will have less situational DPR. Not to mention you can ignore strength altogether and focus on just pumping up dex instead. Alternatively, you could join in at the rangers game and take levels in ranger. You wouldn't catch up, but you could close the gap. Only problem being that only the 16th level build would get access to Instant Enemy (other than a wand) so for the 12th level build ranger is probably bad since that damage will be too situational.
I think the highest I saw was a Zen-Archer Evangelist of Erastil that got to add wis to attack and damage within 30ft but I can't recall the amount and couldn't find it in this thread, but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
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Bows are for wussy elves who look like girls and probably can't digest red meat without throwing up. Crossbows are a man's weapon.
They're just...terrible.
With Haste, rage and favored enemy his full attack looks like
+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27 for 1d6+4d6(elemental)+50.
Assuming this is true, though there are some flaws in the build (WBL, other stuff), I will calculate your DPR for you.
A CR 23 encounter (epic for you) has an average AC of 40. Let us use the following formula:
he damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
h vs AC 40 is 0.95 for the first three attacks. 0.9 for the 4th and 5th. 0.7 for attack 6 and 7. And 0.45 for the 8th.
d is 54.5
s is 14
t is 0.2
c is 2
First three attacks: 3(0.95(54.5+14) +0.2*2*0.95*54.5)= 257.355
Attack 4 and 5: 2(0.90(54.5+14) +0.2*2*0.90*54.5)= 162.54
Attack 6 and 7: 2(0.7(54.5+14) +0.2*2*0.70*54.5)= 126.42
Attack 8: 0.45(54.5+14) +0.2*2*0.45*54.5= 40.635
Total DPR= 586.95
Pretty close to your calculations. Losing +2 from Furious on hit/damage will lower that substantially, by 61.99 to a dpr of 524.96.
This is just your build as you posted it, havent checked anything else (legality etc).
I reckon it would be hard to beat this build, except using a 1-level dip in paladin as an Archer inquisitor to get Litany of Righteousness (and bypass DR on smite), or possibly a straight paladin with the same spell.
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At this point I think it is all legal. I readily accept WBL is gained in very cheesy way that has no place in any real game.
Thanks for the DPR calcualtion!
How much more do I lose for the loss of gravity bow. That is 1 damage per hit. I would guess about 7 points.
The main point is that the extra 7 points from Gravity Bow costs you one round of full attacking. Instead of taking that round to increase your damage by 7 points, you could have done 500+ points of damage.
Is there a guide for what kind of DPR a damage dealer should shoot for?
Depends on the game. That's the kind of question that only your GM can answer.
Two other notes:
1) Don't forget to subtract the Furious bonus from your attack rolls, too.
2) Since you don't have Improved Precise Shot, assume that you're taking another -4 to hit (for cover) on every shot. (Unless you're playing by yourself, someone is going to get into melee with the guy you're shooting at.)
A glove of storing allows you to produce a single item. You can only have one glove of storing. How does glove of storing help you reload?
Presumably by using a lot of juggling the two crossbows between your hands as a free action.
Another thread on the first page where somebody posted a fighter build that could do 300 DPR.Level 12 archers can do around 300 DPR. Taking it to 20 will increase DPR by about 100, so 400 DPR or so.z
Where do you get this number? Does it account for miss chance against a CR appropriate average AC? Or misfire if you are talking about a gunslinger build?
Ok I found it, that's nuts. Legit, accounts for miss chance and crits, whole shebang.
To be fair his will save is abysmal though.
Yea, fighter... If it was an actual game then steps would be taken to fix that.
The questions I am trying to answer is "Does bolt ace make a viable crossbow build?" "Can they be as good as an archer?"
I dont think this answers that at all. You have shown what they can scale too but is a character like that even playable? Normally when I test things like that I make a level 4 and 8 version. If these are playable then you can do it.
Just my personal numbers. I "feel" all builds should be viable around 4 or you are just a strain on your group. I do level 8, cause that is a good point for PFS and APs to see where you stand "2/3's" or "halfway" respectively into your career.
Also, how many rounds of rage does he have?
What is his DPR when not against his favorite enemy?
For free hands recharge bow/crossbow:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/endless-ammunition
I don't think free reloading, but at least reduce it by one step, like Rapid Reload does.
It doesn't even do that. It just creates magical ammunition so that you don't have to buy bolts or arrows. That's it. It is also incredibly overpriced for what it does.
endless ammunition
Price +2 bonus; Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single nonmagical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon's wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.
If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired.
My comment was to Zwordsmans comment about how he felt Endless Ammunition should allow for a free reload.
I was aware that the ability did not shorten the reload, but I was agreeing that it should, like Rapid Reload. Just not completely free reload, since you still need to re-cock the crossbow.
I minunderstood then. I thought you were saying that it worked by reducing it like rapid reload. Not that you thought that's how it should work, but know that it doesn't.
I agree that it would be a semi-useful enchant then if it did. At least for crossbow. You could forgo rapid reload, or pickup the enchant and rapid reload and be able to use a heavy crossbow effectively (though 1d8 vs 1d10 isn't really a big deal). It would still remain largely useless since reloading a bow is a free action.
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A glove of storing allows you to produce a single item. You can only have one glove of storing. How does glove of storing help you reload?Presumably by using a lot of juggling the two crossbows between your hands as a free action.
Doesn't work by my reckoning, but if it works for you guys, more power to you.
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I posted a build here for a crossbow user who does more then 600 DPR. This assume no crits and no misses. Since he uses a (17-20/x3) weapon I think crits will more then counteract misses but I am not sure.
Sub signature deed for improved critical and keen for seeking.
Add bracers of flacon's aim for better crit multiplier.With Haste, rage and favored enemy his full attack looks like
+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27 for 1d6+4d6(elemental)+50.AC of 55(64 with bodyguard)
Fort 32 Ref 38 Will 20
Can move and full attack every round due to roc companionRoc has 60 AC with combat expertise and defensive fighting.
Saves are mid 20s for fort and ref and a measly 13 for will.Will saves are an issue.
Can someone build something similar with a bow that does more damage?
Perception and stealth should both be pretty good.
What's the point? Seriously, what's the point?
On my archer barbarian I just used a furious/courageous gauntlet. Any weapon available to make an AOO with is considered wielded, so the bonus will count.
Ricochet shot deals with cover quite well. I do not suffer for shooting into melee itself and as long as I can bounce the shot off the floor behind him I get around cover. If that will not work I spend a grit and ignore it that way. I will probably get it back with a crit.
This won't work in many cases (flying creatures, creatures on both sides of your target, etc.), and it would be subject to GM's discretion. It's not the "shooting into melee" penalty: any creature between you and your target provides Soft Cover (-4). You would be able to pick up Improved Precise Shot at level 11 or higher, though.
For the gloves action:
Crossbow 1 in right hand and glove in left with stored crossbow.
Fire all interative attacks, rapid, and haste shots.
Retrieve cross bow 2 (free)
Swap hands (free)
store crossbow 1 (free)
Swap hands (free)
Fire off hand shots
Swap hands (free)
(Crossbow 2 starts out and 1 stored on the next round)
A couple of issues with this:
1) It's a free action to swap an item from one hand to the other. I'm not sure that is the same thing as changing hands with items in both hands. How do you swap the crossbows when both your hands are full? I suppose if you put ranks in Profession: Juggler or something, your GM might let you get away with it...2) You currently have two Hands slot items: Glove of Storing and Gloves of Dueling.
3) Your first line "fire all iterative attacks, rapid and haste shots" takes at least 5 free actions (to reload between shots). Swapping the crossbows takes 5 free actions, and your second crossbow takes another 5 free actions. 15 free actions in a single round is pretty insane. GMs are allowed to limit the number of free actions to what they think is reasonable, and 5 free actions a round is given as a guideline.
On the mount:
You need Mounted Archery or you'll take an additional penalty whenever your mount moves. Your Dex is high enough that you should be able to use Guide With Knees (Ride check DC 15) without any trouble, so at least you won't need a move action to guide your mount.
Your flying mount won't be able to use Bodyguard very often, because he'd have to be in melee range of the target to use Aid Another (which kind of defeats the whole purpose of a flying ranged fighter). You'd get more benefit spending those two feats somewhere else.
Stuff
Good stuff. I think he can get away with no Improved Precise Shot due to flying but the Free Actions do kill the build.
On my archer barbarian I just used a furious/courageous gauntlet. Any weapon available to make an AOO with is considered wielded, so the bonus will count.
I'm not sure that works Lastoth. The definition of wielding has never been effectively pegged down, and has varied between actively attacking, able to make an attack with (such as an attack of Opportunity), and sometimes even just holding.
Besides that, only the weapon's enhancement bonus is increased. So, if you have a fruoius gauntlet the guantlet would get the +2 not the bow (even if you could get away with not having to make an attack with it). The bonus to skills would apply any time the gauntlet was worn.
Courageous would work normally if the interpretation is that it is not required to attack, but you would again only reveieve a bonus based on the enhancement of the gauntlet, not the bow. Even then, I think the more reasonable interpretation is that the weapon must be used to attack in the round or else you do not benefit from it.
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Let's say you have the glove on your right hand. You start with two guns. You shoot them both. You suck the right hand gun back into the glove. You load the left hand. Now you have no way to get the right hand gun loaded and still hold the left hand gun.
You can spit the right hand gun, unloaded, back into the right han, but then don't have a free hand. There is no free action that would swap the guns and this allow storing what was originally the left hand gun in order to load the other.
This came up recently. Every instance I found of weild went back to use/attack with regard to weapone not just have&
What's the point? Seriously, what's the point?
The point is that one of the designers posted that crossbows and slings are supposed to totally suck, and likened their use to throwing water baloons at one's enemies. Ever since then it's been open season, with one group requesting that they reconsider this stance, and another group claiming "crossbows and slings are just fine." The inclusion of the Bolt Ace, if it's viable, can be seen as Paizo throwing a bone to the pro-crossbow people; on the other hand, if it doesn't actually work, it's really more of a slap in the face to them, kind of like the Crossbowman fighter archetype (who has "perfected the deadly use of the crossbow" to the point where it still flat-out sucks compared to his non-archetype pal just using a bow).