You filthy power-gaming munchkin. Begone from this place before you besmirch it even more with your wicked ways! How dare you question the old ways?!So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
so, a human fighter with 3 feats can throw 3 daggers in 6 seconds at 1st level, but i can't play Altiar, Aladdin, Indianna Jones, or Sherlock Holmes and actually not suck past level 3. let alone level 10 or even epic levels.
so, a human fighter with 3 feats can throw 3 daggers in 6 seconds at 1st level, but i can't play Altiar, Aladdin, Indianna Jones, or Sherlock Holmes and actually not suck past level 3. let alone level 10 or even epic levels.You filthy power-gaming munchkin. Begone from this place before you besmirch it even more with your wicked ways! How dare you question the old ways?!So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
Next thing you'll be wanting that "weaboo fighting magicz."
The dex to damage options are VERY craptacular. Your classic fencing weapons are out but bastard swords are in... Not exactly viable imo for a LOT of concepts.Have you read their Precise Strike ability? What other class gets their level to damage?
Ok, sorry for derailing, this isn't relevant to the thread. Carry on.
How THAT has anything to do with dex to damage being comparable to strength WITH actual fencing weapons, I don't know...
Next thing you'll be wanting that "weaboo fighting magicz."so, a human fighter with 3 feats can throw 3 daggers in 6 seconds at 1st level, but i can't play Altiar, Aladdin, Indianna Jones, or Sherlock Holmes and actually not suck past level 3. let alone level 10 or even epic levels.You filthy power-gaming munchkin. Begone from this place before you besmirch it even more with your wicked ways! How dare you question the old ways?!So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
a series of high cinematic martial arts techniques is not to be called "Weeaboo Fighting Magics". there is nothing magical about the book of 9 swords, it is merely a book of martial disciplines i think every martial class should get unlimited use unrestricted access to for free, and even then, couldn't keep up with spellcasters.
a series of high cinematic martial arts techniques is not to be called "Weeaboo Fighting Magics". there is nothing magical about the book of 9 swords, it is merely a book of martial disciplines i think every martial class should get unlimited use unrestricted access to for free, and even then, couldn't keep up with spellcasters.
You don't think a series of DBZ-esque actions is magical?
so, a human fighter with 3 feats can throw 3 daggers in 6 seconds at 1st level, but i can't play Altiar, Aladdin, Indianna Jones, or Sherlock Holmes and actually not suck past level 3. let alone level 10 or even epic levels.You filthy power-gaming munchkin. Begone from this place before you besmirch it even more with your wicked ways! How dare you question the old ways?!So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
Hmm, I dunno, I think I could wrangle up all of those concepts with a bit of work.
With the ACG in play, Altair and Sherlock are pretty easy (a Slayer and an Investigator with minimal Extract use respectively), Indiana Jones is well represented by an Archaeologist Bard, or something like a Slayer with some whip Feats and more focus on social skills, and Aladdin is a Commoner with lots of Acrobatics ranks.
Go with sickles if you prefer a less outlandish example.
Sickles are simple, light weapons that offer Trip. And they look cool as part of TWF. I like sickles. :(
Aladdin is a Commoner with lots of Acrobatics ranks.
Or he's a Summoner with a really overpowered third-party archetype.
By the way, how does the human fighter get the third dagger?
a series of high cinematic martial arts techniques is not to be called "Weeaboo Fighting Magics". there is nothing magical about the book of 9 swords, it is merely a book of martial disciplines i think every martial class should get unlimited use unrestricted access to for free, and even then, couldn't keep up with spellcasters.You don't think a series of DBZ-esque actions is magical?
You show the action that can blow a planet, and I'll agree that those are DBZ-esque...
a series of high cinematic martial arts techniques is not to be called "Weeaboo Fighting Magics". there is nothing magical about the book of 9 swords, it is merely a book of martial disciplines i think every martial class should get unlimited use unrestricted access to for free, and even then, couldn't keep up with spellcasters.You don't think a series of DBZ-esque actions is magical?
the book of 9 swords has nothing that truly resembles that or that can't be given a more martial flavoring if desired. the most magical discipline is probably shadow hand, which has very few overtly magical abilities. but most of it is more batman type stuff than anything Goku would use.
desert wind has a few controlled friction based manuevers, but most of the stuff you could find in a high cinematic action movie, superhero comic book, or ancient myth.
all it takes to sunder a mountain is enough strength to deal enough damage to break it, the use of the strength itself isn't magical, but the strength could either come from a magical source, or from from pure training.
there is nothing resembling a turtle destruction wave or spirit bomb in the entire book, the closest thing is shadow garrote, which is one of like 5 blatantly magical abilities in the shadow hand discipline and one of less than 20 blatantly magical abilities out of like 250 manuevers.
Aladdin is a Commoner with lots of Acrobatics ranks.Or he's a Summoner with a really overpowered third-party archetype.
By the way, how does the human fighter get the third dagger?
Two weapon/quick draw/rapid fire.
Aladdin is a Commoner with lots of Acrobatics ranks.Or he's a Summoner with a really overpowered third-party archetype.
By the way, how does the human fighter get the third dagger?
2 Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw and Rapid Shot
Ah, I forgot two-weapon fighting. Always see it as a melee deal.
A knight who rides a dragon, with whom he communicates telepathically.
Appropriately built Eldritch Knight (maybe use Cavalier), Dragon from Leadership or Special Mount, permanencied Telepathic Bond spell with Dragon.
Done.
The dex to damage options are VERY craptacular. Your classic fencing weapons are out but bastard swords are in... Not exactly viable imo for a LOT of concepts.Have you read their Precise Strike ability? What other class gets their level to damage?
Ok, sorry for derailing, this isn't relevant to the thread. Carry on.
Paladins and Cavaliers, for starters.
shadow garrote, the most blatantly magical skill in the entire book of 9 swords, is exclusive to the swordsage, which is essentially a ninja monk hybrid
in fact, with the 3 disciplines that possess supernatural talents, 2 of them are exclusive to the swordsage and 1 of them is shared by the swordsage and the crusader, the crusader essentially being a paladin and the swordsage being the only base class with access to all 9 disciplines off the bat. the crusader gets like 4 disciplines and the warblade like 5. all 3 can use iron heart surge, which can cure any hindering conition, including a vampires chance of sunlight induced death.
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In BECMI I could play a fighter ace with a magic airplane. In 2e I could play a character who has his own spaceship. And in 5e I can play an agility-based fighter that's every bit a match for a strength-based fighter of the same level. How do I do any of these in PF?
Talk with your DM. Seriously. He'll probably give you an intelligent magical dagger slayer of demon doom.
This dex based discussion, is pretty funny on paper but we all know, in practice DM enjoys accommodating people even playing the weakest mechanical concepts because of the rule of "cool". I have seen it happen plenty of times.
Also, the classical "magic drains your life energy" style Mage. We've tried a house rule with non lethal damage with multipliers based on spell level, or some kinda point system...but nothing fits.Vampiric Touch?
No, I mean the act if casting is damaging for the caster, this more ow earful the effect the harder they are hit by it. Need to teleport the party out of here ASAP? Sure, but you'll take a bunch of non lethal and might pass out from the strain if you try doing any other powerful magic.
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No, I mean the act if casting is damaging for the caster, this more ow earful the effect the harder they are hit by it. Need to teleport the party out of here ASAP? Sure, but you'll take a bunch of non lethal and might pass out from the strain if you try doing any other powerful magic.Also, the classical "magic drains your life energy" style Mage. We've tried a house rule with non lethal damage with multipliers based on spell level, or some kinda point system...but nothing fits.Vampiric Touch?
That's mostly a setting thing...you should check out dragonlance campaign setting, that's basically how magic works in that setting.
No, I mean the act if casting is damaging for the caster, this more ow earful the effect the harder they are hit by it. Need to teleport the party out of here ASAP? Sure, but you'll take a bunch of non lethal and might pass out from the strain if you try doing any other powerful magic.Also, the classical "magic drains your life energy" style Mage. We've tried a house rule with non lethal damage with multipliers based on spell level, or some kinda point system...but nothing fits.Vampiric Touch?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/bloatmage
Bloodsurge, in particular, seems to cover that niche.
the magical assassin i mentioned, as well as the elemental leeching vampiric-lite martially inclined warrior, are both concepts that can be made, but are complete trash at the levels they can be made, because they are lesser than the few concepts the game does support at that level. specifically high level full progression spell casters.
telling me that you can build a decent spellcasting assassin at epic levels or telling me you can build a highly competent non-magical rogue, but it will suck after level 3, means you can't really build those concepts, because if you tried to at the levels you could build them at, they would still be outright useless.
i wanted to build a competent assassin who can fill the assassin niche competently while using spells to support that, not an incompetent 20th level character that is outright inferior to a 7th level wizard in everything except hit points, saving throws and bab.
There is a simple solution.
Play a different system.
It would be easy to create said character in Hero system. It would be a little more work to do it in GURPS and I don't recall if they define any elemental leeching ability like you describe.
Neither of those games have classes or levels. Makes it a lot easier to mix and match abilities. Group balance is then one of making sure you have the wanted abilities within the group. It is also much more typical for every character to have some mundane first-aid ability.
Pathfinder is a class and level based system. That carries with it the baggage of having certain stereotypes central to it. Fighting those stereotypes generally isn't going to work.
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No, I was specifically referring to dumping dexterity. With heavy armor you can leave it around average, but only an oracle with one of three certain mysteries can get away with a dexterity of 7.Clumsy genius wizards can be done but don't work well in Pathfinder.I'm not sure that that's accurate. Define Clumsy... Seems to me that it's basically a Wizard with maybe low Wisdom and Dexterity? You'll miss the Dex to AC, I guess, but really, you don't even need to dump Wis and Dex to be clumsy, you can just roleplay yourself as clumsy.
... I manage just fine, thank you very much.
Also, the classical "magic drains your life energy" style Mage. We've tried a house rule with non lethal damage with multipliers based on spell level, or some kinda point system...but nothing fits.
...
I mean the act if casting is damaging for the caster, this more powerful the effect the harder they are hit by it. Need to teleport the party out of here ASAP? Sure, but you'll take a bunch of non lethal and might pass out from the strain if you try doing any other powerful magic.
Runescarred Bloodline, from "Wages of Xin" in Wayfinder #5.
I disqualified said solution because Monks do, in fact, have magic (namely, Ki Pool as a Su ability)
Supernatural is not magic. It's...supernatural. <g> Spells and Spell-like is magic.
Creating "trap" options, or options that are inferior for no other reason than that they are inferior, is the absolute PINNACLE of s$~*ty game design. Purposefully designing something...
Nope. See, first of all, whether or not various classes are "balanced" is 100% subjective opinion. In our games, our Fighter is far and away the most powerful PC. We get threads here all the time with GM's moaning about how OP their rogue is and what to do about him. I have seen Wizards who are more useless than a burnt-out match.
And then you see, some folks want to take a option that is less powerful. You call it a "trap" but since it's a CHOICE, why does everyone have to take only the MOST powerful options? Maybe MY idea for my PC includes taking the Sea Legs feat. To me, it's EXACTLY what I want, so for ME, for MY character it's not a 'trap' at all. But some might say it's a 'trap option" and thus want to take that option away...so I no longer have that option.
It's a ROLEPLAYING game, not a OPTIMIZING game.
So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
Not only can you play him, Fritz Leiber DID play him.
People have been playing great swashbuckler rogues for 40 years before they thought of Dex for damage. You dont need that to play a great fun swashbuckler.
Mundane normal guy doesn't work in PF. Now a Cyber Soldier with double WBL because he is crafting all his tech-guide material himself can be very viable.
What is missing is an Extraordinary monster, that fills his magic item slots with extraordinary mutations.
A pure martial artist just will not keep up without Ki. I have seen no literature or media where they could.
I disqualified said solution because Monks do, in fact, have magic (namely, Ki Pool as a Su ability)Supernatural is not magic. It's...supernatural. <g> Spells and Spell-like is magic.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
It seems the game designers disagree. :P
How about complete size control? Something along the lines of Ant-Man or The Atom, who can shrink down to the size of an insect or from insect back to man-size as a standard or even as a move action. And also can retain his full strength bonus to melee damage, like Ant-Man.
So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
Not only can you play him, Fritz Leiber DID play him.
People have been playing great swashbuckler rogues for 40 years before they thought of Dex for damage. You dont need that to play a great fun swashbuckler.
Did Fritz Leiber play him in Pathfinder? The disparity between an agile fighter and a strong fighter is much greater in PF than it was in 2e and earlier versions.
No, he played him as a Thief in AD&D.
I missed the entry to this subthread, but are we honestly trying to come up with a character who literally has no special abilities but is still "special"?
Ha! Like this. Very much like this.
No, he played him as a Thief in AD&D.So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
Not only can you play him, Fritz Leiber DID play him.
People have been playing great swashbuckler rogues for 40 years before they thought of Dex for damage. You dont need that to play a great fun swashbuckler.
Did Fritz Leiber play him in Pathfinder? The disparity between an agile fighter and a strong fighter is much greater in PF than it was in 2e and earlier versions.
Thieves kicked ass back then. Backstabbing damage, the only class capable of meaningful stealth, the only class able to handle traps...that was before we started just handing out abilities willy-nilly. ;D
Thieves kicked ass back then. Backstabbing damage, the only class capable of meaningful stealth, the only class able to handle traps...that was before we started just handing out abilities willy-nilly. ;DNo, he played him as a Thief in AD&D.So a 1st level gunslinger with 1 feat can load and fire a muzzle-loading matchlock pistol in 6 seconds, but I can't play the Grey Mouser because realism?
Not only can you play him, Fritz Leiber DID play him.
People have been playing great swashbuckler rogues for 40 years before they thought of Dex for damage. You dont need that to play a great fun swashbuckler.
Did Fritz Leiber play him in Pathfinder? The disparity between an agile fighter and a strong fighter is much greater in PF than it was in 2e and earlier versions.
Backstab was rather hard to get, and no-one added Dex to damage.
It was a cool class, tho.
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I'm not aware of a way to sort a list of fighter-only feats; might be easier if you name one of those many examples.A completely nonmagical warrior who has trained to the point of being able to do things that absolutely cannot be duplicated by a freaking commoner no matter what level, stats, or gear the commoner has.Take a look at the list of fighter only feats. Commoners cannot duplicate many of those, regardless of gear.
We'll start with Critical Mastery, unless there is a magic item that allows you to inflict multiple conditions on a successful critical hit.
As for the list, I suggest using this one. I'm sure you will find scads of feats no commoner will ever qualify for.
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Jedi shadow from swtor.
Two bladed sword, sneak attack, melee focused, and has psionic and necromantic attack spells as well as some shields.
Closest I can think of is bard sandman with the witches spell list up to 6th level. But that probably isn't balanced
Kensai
If you go bladebound, you can even turn your sword into a force weapon.