Majuba |
RAW supports this with the minimum starting age of characters. RAW also supports a dumb fighter to change to Wizard after a day of fighting, assuming that nets them enough XP. This has nothing to do with good or bad roleplaying, logic, smart class choices, or anything else.
The rules/circumstances for leveling up are in the GM's control, including multi-classing. The GM can allow leveling the moment a creature dies and you gain exactly enough XP to level, or require you to rest the night, or require you to take a day/week/month/year off to train, or require you to be trained by a master of your class... there is no rule saying "you can level in whatever you want instantly".
How about Voltron as a concept?
Broken Zenith |
I would dare say there are a ton of concepts that can't work as a re-flavoring of core rules. But, I welcome others to prove me wrong. Let's try:
Spellcaster who can only cast spells immediately after swallowing a mouthful of soil.
Fighter who's power wanes and waxes with the cycles of the moon.
Mage who can only harm enemies with birthdays in January.
Shapeshifter who gains control of individual's minds if they use him as a hatrack.
A virus.
A planet.
You wanted wacky and outlandish? I would be thrilled if people could re-flavor existing mechanics for these.
Nothing?
Eltacolibre |
Fighter power wanes and waxes with the cycle of the moon, is probable. A Lycanthrope would be a good place to start changing your stats significantly during lunar phases. The trait child of the moon would give some bonuses during lunar phases as well.
Moonlight Stalker line of combat feats to fight the enemy at night, where you get more bonuses to your attack rolls and damage etc.
Mysterious Stranger |
Mysterious Stranger wrote:The show "Hercules" is in no way the model of a standard campaign, nor a standard character. The problem is to give the player what he wanted, not only did it require a modification to the character, it required a mod to the campaign as well. You need to change things such as recovery. I'm somewhat mystified why he could not have done this through Mystic rules. A Champion Dual-Pathed to Guardian should have pulled it off relatively easily with a bit of development.The biggest problem I have encountered is not that a concept cannot be done, but that it cannot be done in a manner that satisfies the player. This mostly happens when someone it trying to recreate something from a TV show, or movie.
I know a player that is constantly trying to recreate the TV version of Hercules. The biggest problem is that the TV show version has the equivalent of around a 45 point build. He is also a very high level character and the player gets frustrated not being able to do what he thinks his character should do. He also does not want to rely on magic items because the character on TV did not have any magic items. While the mythic rules and the new ACG help they still cannot meet the player’s expectations.
Unless you are running a solo campaign Pathfinder is a group experience. While absolute balance of the characters is almost impossible to achieve, game balance is still important. Most people do not want to play clearly inferior characters just so one person can get what he wants. Some concepts no matter how cool just don’t work well and should be avoided.
That was kind of my point, is that he had a concept that did not work well in a game. His biggest problem was that his concept required a high level character and through half the game his character would not have been able to do what he thought it should be able to do. This was also before Mythic Adventures, or the ACG came out. But even so his concept had great physical stats with a minimum of 18 STR, at least 14 in DEX and CON, above average mental stats with a minimum 14 CHA. He also wanted to fight unarmed and to be able to do as much damage as a two handed fighter. Trying to do this without using magic items is impossible.
I use a 25 point buy and suggested he go for more of a classic Hercules where he dumps INT, and WIS and has an average CHA, but that was not what he wanted. As I said some concepts do not work well in a game. If I had let him have what he wanted in all fairness I would have had to give the other players equally overpowered abilities. This would have also meant I would have had to total rewrite the campaign I had planned and I did not want to do this.
RumpinRufus |
I hope the "wizard training" conversation is over, but just to clarify, this is not the "what concepts CAN be done that you think SHOULDN'T exist", this is the "is there any concept than CAN'T be done" thread. Can you make a wizard that requires years of training? Yes, you can. Conversation over.
Back on topic, I'd like to address this one:
2. An alchemist who uses alchemy to temporary enhance items (Weapon oils, Armor polish stuff like that...)
What is wrong with using a reskinned Magus for this? He needs a free hand anyway, instead of casting say that he breaks out an oil and applies it to his weapon.
Ascalaphus |
Somebody mentioned "poisoner". Now given OP's example of a psion, there is no reason why a player cannot play a sorcerer, call it a poisoner, focus on appropriate spells (sleep, daze monster, etc), only applies spells via touch, and calls the spells appropriate poison names. "Narcotic poison" (sleep), "muscle relaxing toxin" (daze monster).
In other words, any "cannot be done" is really saying "cannot be done this way", or "cannot be done and still be as good as the minmaxed synthesist", or even "cannot be done in PFS".
Did you just change psion into poisoner?
The awkward part about calling your spells poisons is that there are already poisons in the game with their own rules and countermeasures, such as Antitoxin, Delay Poison, druid's/alchemist's Poison Immunity and so forth.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:That was kind of my point, is that he had a concept that did not work well in a game. His biggest problem was that his concept required a high level character and through half the game his character would not have been able to do what he thought it should be able to do. This was also before Mythic Adventures, or the ACG came out. But even so his concept had great physical...Mysterious Stranger wrote:The show "Hercules" is in no way the model of a standard campaign, nor a standard character. The problem is to give the player what he wanted, not only did it require a modification to the character, it required a mod to the campaign as well. You need to change things such as recovery. I'm somewhat mystified why he could not have done this through Mystic rules. A Champion Dual-Pathed to Guardian should have pulled it off relatively easily with a bit of development.The biggest problem I have encountered is not that a concept cannot be done, but that it cannot be done in a manner that satisfies the player. This mostly happens when someone it trying to recreate something from a TV show, or movie.
I know a player that is constantly trying to recreate the TV version of Hercules. The biggest problem is that the TV show version has the equivalent of around a 45 point build. He is also a very high level character and the player gets frustrated not being able to do what he thinks his character should do. He also does not want to rely on magic items because the character on TV did not have any magic items. While the mythic rules and the new ACG help they still cannot meet the player’s expectations.
Unless you are running a solo campaign Pathfinder is a group experience. While absolute balance of the characters is almost impossible to achieve, game balance is still important. Most people do not want to play clearly inferior characters just so one person can get what he wants. Some concepts no matter how cool just don’t work well and should be avoided.
The moral of the story is that sometimes the limitation is not due to the game system but the campaign itself. You can't build a demi-god using the ruleset for a standard mortal.
KestrelZ |
The existing rules have a good deal of flexibility, yet some concepts fit better with a different rule system.
Yes, Pathfinder can be applied to high fantasy, and just about any variation of fantasy genre. It can also be applied to any action adventure type of roleplaying for contemporary or science fiction settings.
Superhero RPGs tend to need a very different rule system as such characters commonly have the strength to juggle cars, become bulletproof, and are still expected to slugfest with other super powered beings for a few rounds of combat. To simulate this, a very different rule set is usually required to simulate what happens in comics.
It may also become difficult to simulate Mage the Ascension's "Lathe of heaven" treatment of magic without a radical change in the system.
It is also somewhat inadequate for highly humorous roleplay, such as Toon or Teenagers from Outer Space. It can be done, yet a lot of house rules are needed.
In short, it does what it is supposed to do well. There are some genres that are still more suited to another rule system, much like trying to use a hammer to fasten a screw otherwise.
Eltacolibre |
Edward Elric?
Nowadays this concept is somewhat easier to make:
Edward Elric big deal is being able to transmute stuffs, spontaneous alchemy might as well be spellcasting, his automail legs and arms.
Edward Elric - Human Male Eldritch Scrapper (this gives martial flexibility), Arcane Bloodline to represent the knowledge gained through the gate of knowledge.
Automails: Cybernetic arms and legs from the technology guide, add in implanted weaponry for the dagger in Ed arm.
Only con: you won't be able to play this concept from level 1 due to the cost of cybernetic stuffs.
Lanitril |
Clumsy genius wizards can be done but don't work well in Pathfinder.
I'm not sure that that's accurate. Define Clumsy... Seems to me that it's basically a Wizard with maybe low Wisdom and Dexterity? You'll miss the Dex to AC, I guess, but really, you don't even need to dump Wis and Dex to be clumsy, you can just roleplay yourself as clumsy.
LazarX |
I think we can settle on the following.
Pathfinder can do some things very well. It can do other things reasonably well. And there will be those that can't be done at all unless basic assumptions on how the game is run are changed.
Malwing |
Things that I've gotten third party for, because I cant replicate it in Pathfinder proper (excluding science fiction type things)
A 'scholar' or smart guy that doesn't use magic or alchemy but most of his prowess comes from knowing stuff.
Kevin Sorbo Hercules.
Kamen Rider/Mahoshojo
Magical Iron Man was too late level for my tastes.
A transmuter alchemist.
Captain Boomerang.
Rynjin |
Rynjin wrote:Non-magical guy who overcomes level appropriate challenges without magic of any sort.Not much more likely than a wizard who is also deprived of all his gear.
WBL affects casters just as strongly as it affects non-casters.
It doesn't, really, though it does heavily affect them.
But whereas a caster can muddle through and at least have a CHANCE (if a small one) of beating encounters throughout the level ranges with no gear, a non-caster (a true non-caster, like the Fighter, or a Barbarian with no Su powers) does not. Any incorporeal creature is insurmountable, creatures with DR Alignment or Magic effectively increase their HP exponentially, enemy casters can easily have save DCs that put them in the "Only pass on a 20" range. and so on.
This game requires magic to progress past a certain point, or houserules emulating those magical effects.
Artanthos |
Artanthos wrote:Rynjin wrote:Non-magical guy who overcomes level appropriate challenges without magic of any sort.Not much more likely than a wizard who is also deprived of all his gear.
WBL affects casters just as strongly as it affects non-casters.
It doesn't, really, though it does heavily affect them.
But whereas a caster can muddle through and at least have a CHANCE (if a small one) of beating encounters throughout the level ranges with no gear, a non-caster (a true non-caster, like the Fighter, or a Barbarian with no Su powers) does not. Any incorporeal creature is insurmountable, creatures with DR Alignment or Magic effectively increase their HP exponentially, enemy casters can easily have save DCs that put them in the "Only pass on a 20" range. and so on.
This game requires magic to progress past a certain point, or houserules emulating those magical effects.
The monk would like a word with you.
Rynjin |
Rynjin wrote:The monk would like a word with you.Artanthos wrote:Rynjin wrote:Non-magical guy who overcomes level appropriate challenges without magic of any sort.Not much more likely than a wizard who is also deprived of all his gear.
WBL affects casters just as strongly as it affects non-casters.
It doesn't, really, though it does heavily affect them.
But whereas a caster can muddle through and at least have a CHANCE (if a small one) of beating encounters throughout the level ranges with no gear, a non-caster (a true non-caster, like the Fighter, or a Barbarian with no Su powers) does not. Any incorporeal creature is insurmountable, creatures with DR Alignment or Magic effectively increase their HP exponentially, enemy casters can easily have save DCs that put them in the "Only pass on a 20" range. and so on.
This game requires magic to progress past a certain point, or houserules emulating those magical effects.
The Monk has magic Su powers.
LoneKnave |
Rynjin wrote:The monk would like a word with you.Artanthos wrote:Rynjin wrote:Non-magical guy who overcomes level appropriate challenges without magic of any sort.Not much more likely than a wizard who is also deprived of all his gear.
WBL affects casters just as strongly as it affects non-casters.
It doesn't, really, though it does heavily affect them.
But whereas a caster can muddle through and at least have a CHANCE (if a small one) of beating encounters throughout the level ranges with no gear, a non-caster (a true non-caster, like the Fighter, or a Barbarian with no Su powers) does not. Any incorporeal creature is insurmountable, creatures with DR Alignment or Magic effectively increase their HP exponentially, enemy casters can easily have save DCs that put them in the "Only pass on a 20" range. and so on.
This game requires magic to progress past a certain point, or houserules emulating those magical effects.
1. The monk is chock full of SU abilities.
2. He's not any closer to the original goal (if anything he's farther away, Monks need a bucketload of magical items to function).LazarX |
If you want to play a Tolkien style elf you run into the same problem, since those are by flavor superior in just about every aspect to every other race.
Not superior to the Dunedain, which is where you'd draw your PC hero Humans.
Rynjin |
Artanthos wrote:Rynjin wrote:The monk would like a word with you.Artanthos wrote:Rynjin wrote:Non-magical guy who overcomes level appropriate challenges without magic of any sort.Not much more likely than a wizard who is also deprived of all his gear.
WBL affects casters just as strongly as it affects non-casters.
It doesn't, really, though it does heavily affect them.
But whereas a caster can muddle through and at least have a CHANCE (if a small one) of beating encounters throughout the level ranges with no gear, a non-caster (a true non-caster, like the Fighter, or a Barbarian with no Su powers) does not. Any incorporeal creature is insurmountable, creatures with DR Alignment or Magic effectively increase their HP exponentially, enemy casters can easily have save DCs that put them in the "Only pass on a 20" range. and so on.
This game requires magic to progress past a certain point, or houserules emulating those magical effects.
1. The monk is chock full of SU abilities.
2. He's not any closer to the original goal (if anything he's farther away, Monks need a bucketload of magical items to function).
Hmmm, well, sorta. The Monk is 1000000x better off than any other martial with zero magic in play. But in a normal game, yes, he gets less mileage out of each individual item he has.
thegreenteagamer |
These are ones I actually think should be easy, but can't quite see how they could be done.
Man with intelligent chicken.
Warrior, who rides an Unicorn.
Intelligent chicken seems like it'd fall under "familiar" category. Unicorn riding seems like it could be covered under the leadership feat.
blackbloodtroll |
blackbloodtroll wrote:Intelligent chicken seems like it'd fall under "familiar" category. Unicorn riding seems like it could be covered under the leadership feat.These are ones I actually think should be easy, but can't quite see how they could be done.
Man with intelligent chicken.
Warrior, who rides an Unicorn.
Ah, but there is no chicken familiar, or even chicken stats!
Eltacolibre |
I wanna make a magical little girl with Kyubey as a familiar. Can I do it with existing rules without houserules? To keep it 'High fantasy', I'll limit my magical little girl to using a bow. A pink one.
A summoner with an Eidolon looking like kyubey essentially, would probably be the easiest way. You might consider picking up Eldritch heritage line of feats to get some bloodline powers that could look like your magical girl powers.
thegreenteagamer |
thegreenteagamer wrote:Ah, but there is no chicken familiar, or even chicken stats!blackbloodtroll wrote:Intelligent chicken seems like it'd fall under "familiar" category. Unicorn riding seems like it could be covered under the leadership feat.These are ones I actually think should be easy, but can't quite see how they could be done.
Man with intelligent chicken.
Warrior, who rides an Unicorn.
A simple reflavoring of another creature type. Given it's stats, flying squirrel works remarkably well as a chicken. Clumsy flight, tiny size, etc.