Logic behind Monk's Unarmed Damage. Why?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I don't understand the math behind the Monk's Unarmed Damage progression. Soon their damage catches up to the damage of regular weapons and at level 10 they start doing Greatsword damage with each "hand", that if they don't do anything to increase that damage before that.

I'm not questioning the pattern of how it increases (btw, it's around 50% with every size category larger), I wanna know why did they make that base damage increase so much, why not stop it before, like at 1d10? TWF with Bastard Swords and only -2 penalty seems pretty good to me.

It makes me feel like a Fighter or Ranger will never be able to have weapon damages as good as those.

AND, the real problem lies with increasing size and using other spells to buff that up to bizzarish 12d8+ base damages.

Also, I always thought the Monk's Unarmed Damage increased because of his "Kung Fu", and I don't see how that adds up to size increase. His Kung Fu skill won't matter much when he's crushing your whole body with his colossal finger.

You should not be able to use that crazy base damage with other size increases spells and other abilities, the math is just broken, and I wanna know why did they do it this way.


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Because the Monk isn't just using Kung Fu, he's using crazy internal magic to project an ungodly amount of force from every inch of his body. It's the whole idea behind 'Ki' for them. It makes as much sense as their eventual ability to walk around the Ethereal Plane, heal themselves (badly, yes), talk to any living thing, or any of the other crazy things they do.


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Part of the logic is that it is a lot harder and more expensive to enchant your fists. You also don't really get a choice to -not- use your fists as the entire class is based on it.

You also don't get the increased damage that other classes do using power attack with two weapon fighting, your BAB being unable to use power attack that effectively(or while flurrying) and you being unable to wield a fist with two hands. (Unless you detached your arm and beat someone over the head with it in which case it would actually only do 1d4 damage as an improvised weapon and you would be better off just punching them or using a dagger).

It is higher damage than a normal weapon, but the lack of high strength additions and additional cost to enchant makes up for the damage.


Well the size thing is just a way within the system to show their skill. their fists aren't actu ally going up. It's like the difference between a amateur boxer and a professional (or use MMA ). The more experience you build up using your body and figuring out your own way of fitting to the form, you hit harder and harder, and you learn to hurt yourself less and less.
That's just inthe real world. For monks they're adding a quasi special energy to themselves too. (dunno brawler's fluff)

The reason for their damage being higher is because of the difference in game mechanics. It is by far easier to enchant weapons, and have them made out of different materials. Monks don't have that option (they can only pay extra, and overcome material types by the +ehancement modifier). They also lose the ability to really have armour. So they give up those and a few other things in exchange for harder hits.

At higher levels it isn't as noticable due to having a large amount of money (usually) but at lower levels the fighter might have weapon blanchs, or ever carrying weapons of different material types. The puncher? He can only punch harder to overcome the DR issues.

In practice, it really equals out (well in most cases the unarmed guy lags behind for various reasons)


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Yeah, the core monk will, under equal optimization, never out damage a core barbarian, fighter, paladin, or ranger (the last of which becomes really strong with the Instant Enemy spell).

May well out damage the rogue, though, but that's a whole 'nother conversation, and one I'm not optimized enough to give you answers on.


Things might change a bit for him if he was able to simply use Piranha Strike and had a real Dex-to-Damage option to help with flurry of blows other than Agile, but hey, that might make them more functional without having to Archetype the bejesus out of them, and we can't have that.


Ok, let's say you're doing 2d8 "Ki" damage on your attacks. If you've grown to a Huge size, shouldn't you now be doing 2d8 Ki damage + Huge size punch damage?

The way this scales doesn't feel right. It's like using Claws of the Beat + Expansion, I feel like I'm cheating.


You're doing Bludgeoning damage (usually), backed up by crazy internal magic making you hit like a freight train.

If you're already a size category larger than Medium, you're already tossing out bigger punches normally, so, it has pretty much the same effect as if you were to use an appropriately sized weapon.

Dark Archive

Considering the majority of your damage will be coming from static bonuses and NOT from the XdX you roll, it's really just throwing Monks a bone. They're not good at hitting stuff outside of Flurry, so let them keep their ability to kinda sorta hit stuff hard if they can manage to connect.

You can actually just not use abilities that make you larger sizes and leave it at that. You don't have to make your Monk Huge-sized and then Strong Jaw cast on you. You can just hang tight as a normal Medium-sized monk.


The thing is, more damage dice isn't that much more damage. At 12th level they gain an avg 7 damage per punch. And they can flurry 5 attacks on a full round, making it 35 avg damage if they can hit with all 5 attacks, one which has a BAB of 0. That's nothing at level 12.
The high damage output mostly comes from high damage modifiers.

EDIT: Even if enlarged, they have 10,5 avg damage per punch, avg 52,5 damage if they hit with all 5 attacks. Still nothing at level 12.

(This is without damage modifiers, but that's just in the monk's favour. Since monks are MAD and fighters/rangers aren't, monks won't have as high damage modifiers as them by default)


Ever play Chrono Trigger?

Spoiler:
Remember the segment just after the Ocean Palace where they were captured by Dalton and taken aboard the airship and all their gear was taken away? Without weapons, no one could attack... except for Ayla since she was, essentially, a Monk.

That's the real purpose of a Monk... the guy who keeps your party able if you're ever deprived of all your nice magic gear. You walk into an Antimagic Field, and BAM, all your magic gear shuts off. That nice +3 Holy Greatsword you're so fond of? It's just a MWK Greatsword now. Sure, the Monk's AoMF shuts off as well, but, while other martial classes beat out a Monk when both are optimized with magic gear, the Monk evens out when the magic gear is taken away.

Silver Crusade

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Kchaka wrote:

I don't understand the math behind the Monk's Unarmed Damage progression. Soon their damage catches up to the damage of regular weapons and at level 10 they start doing Greatsword damage with each "hand", that if they don't do anything to increase that damage before that.

I'm not questioning the pattern of how it increases (btw, it's around 50% with every size category larger), I wanna know why did they make that base damage increase so much, why not stop it before, like at 1d10? TWF with Bastard Swords and only -2 penalty seems pretty good to me.

It makes me feel like a Fighter or Ranger will never be able to have weapon damages as good as those.

- The reason? Because they lack really Any damage increasing abilities and feats, much like a Fighter gets with ease. They also have 3/4ths BAB, though it is Full BAB for Flurry -2(which is exactly the same as a Fighter using two Light Weapons). Also, they don't get Armor or Shields for the extra, very much needed, AC. Compensation. It's as simple as that. It doesn't really compensate much, but it's a start.In a way, the Unarmed Damage makes up for the lack of static damage, being as the Average damage you gain using Dice equates to almost the same. They still fall short, regardless, of almost every other DPR class. At the same time, their defenses are just poor.

Kchaka wrote:


AND, the real problem lies with increasing size and using other spells to buff that up to bizzarish 12d8+ base damages.

- It's well deserved, and the sacrifice is usually big to get there. Much like a sacrifice for any other class combo. Also, Monk's can only really hit Colossal if they are also at least 4 levels of Druid. Anyone who increases in size, has increased Melee damage. Then there are spells that can combine with that, like Lead Blades, to bump them up further. Every martial class aside from maybe Rogue will have the Monk beaten in Static damage to boot.

Kchaka wrote:


Also, I always thought the Monk's Unarmed Damage increased because of his "Kung Fu", and I don't see how that adds up to size increase. His Kung Fu skill won't matter much when he's crushing your whole body with his colossal finger.

You should not be able to use that crazy base damage with other size increases spells and other abilities, the math is just broken, and I wanna know why did they do it this way.

- It's a mixture of the internal Ki he is pushing through his body, along with technique, precision, placement, and strength. That's just how it is, so get used to it :)

It's not broken by any means, generally to reach those levels of damage it requires great sacrifice.


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Truthfully?

Because it seemed like a good idea in the late 1970s.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pupsocket wrote:

Truthfully?

Because it seemed like a good idea in the late 1970s.

That answer can be literally applied to the creation of D+D itself.

Grand Lodge

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Kazaan wrote:

Ever play Chrono Trigger?

** spoiler omitted **

That's the real purpose of a Monk... the guy who keeps your party able if you're ever deprived of all your nice magic gear. You walk into an Antimagic Field, and BAM, all your magic gear shuts off. That nice +3 Holy Greatsword you're so fond of? It's just a MWK Greatsword now. Sure, the Monk's AoMF shuts off as well, but, while other martial classes beat out a Monk when both are optimized with magic gear, the Monk evens out when the magic gear is taken away.

Ayla was my favorite character. Marle and Ayla were pretty much constant, as that's how you got all the cool stuff. Like magic pants, you wear on your head.

Sovereign Court

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Unless you're rolling a large amount of dice static damage is often much more favourable to have over-all.

Even if you're "punching with greatswords" you aren't doing the same effective greatsword damage. A character actually wielding a greatsword will have higher damage from strength bonuses, a better critical range and more bonus damage from feats like power attack than someone unarmed striking. Add to that it is very likely that character invested more into their strength score on average then a monk character and it makes one or two extra attacks from the monk is more to help them keep up than something to worry about.

If we're bringing logic into the question a better question might be why do people feel the need to makes characters that want to punch people in full suits of steel armor or creatures with inches of thick hide like dragons. Though that can be taken further too.


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If we're bringing logic into the question a better question might be why do people feel the need to makes characters that want to punch people in full suits of steel armor or creatures with inches of thick hide like dragons. Though that can be taken further too.

Because it is awesome. I think that sums it up really.


Kchaka wrote:

Ok, let's say you're doing 2d8 "Ki" damage on your attacks. If you've grown to a Huge size, shouldn't you now be doing 2d8 Ki damage + Huge size punch damage?

The way this scales doesn't feel right. It's like using Claws of the Beat + Expansion, I feel like I'm cheating.

The monk is in the lowest tier of PC classes; I'd say second worst class in the game. You're not cheating; you're not even keeping your head above water.


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I'm sure you've heard the story but...

Spoiler:
A young boy in China left his poor village in the country to apply to become a monk at the famed Shaolin Temple.
He was interviewed and tested by the senior monk and was finally accepted as a junior monk. His first night at the temple the boy could hardly contain his excitement. He dreamed of learning fabulous sword forms and acrobatics...he couldn’t wait for his first lesson the next day.
When the next day finally arrived, he was ordered by the chief instructor to carry a large wooden pail down the mountainside to a stream, fill it with water, and bring it back up to the temple. The boy did as instructed. “Good,” said the instructor. “Now stand beside the bucket and with your palm slap the surface of the water. Repeat that until there is no water left.”
The boy again did as instructed. He felt perhaps he was being punished, or tested to see if he had the perseverance and discipline to train as a Shaolin monk. After just a few minutes his palm was red and burning from slapping the water but he continued until all the water was gone.
“Good,” said the instructor. “Now go get another bucket of water and do it again.”
This went on all day, and to the boy’s horror the next day, too. Then the next day, and the next... and soon weeks and months were going by and all the boy did was carry the big bucket of water and slap all the water out of it.
After a year the Buddhist holidays arrived and the head monk called the young boy into his office. “Young man, you’ve been here for a year. Now I want you to take a break and visit your family for the holidays. I’ve notified them that you’re coming, and I’ll expect you back here in two weeks to resume your training.”
When the villagers got word that the young Shaolin monk was returning they were overjoyed and decided to hold a big celebration in his honor. When the boy arrived at his village he discovered a huge banner over the main road welcoming him home, and he found that the villagers had roped off an area in the village square for a celebration in his honor. His pride at returning as a Shaolin monk quickly faded as he realized they wanted him to demonstrate his martial arts skills in the roped off area.
He told the excited villagers that he preferred not to but they insisted and wouldn’t take no for an answer. The humiliation grew in the young boy: Indeed he had been made a fool of by the head instructor. In a whole year he hadn’t learned any martial arts at all. Now he was about to lose face in front of his entire village.
The villagers dragged him to the head table and yelled and shouted and urged him to show them some real Shaolin kungfu. He stood motionless with tears welling in his eyes and his face reddening, ashamed to tell the villagers that he had learned nothing. Finally the frustration grew to be too much.
“Leave me be,” screamed the boy as he slammed his hand down on the table.
Everyone stood silent and wide-eyed for several moments... and then they all broke out into a loud applause. When he slammed his hand down he had broken the thick stone table right in half!
Copied from http://www.thepeacefuldragon.com/lessons/patience.pdf

A greatsword can't break a stone table in half, even in most legends, but the legendary features of most shaolin monks get quasi-mystical with their abilties, just as legendary ninjas do, with the invisibility, water walking, water breathing, etc.

From a mechanics standpoint, it just attempts to keep their damage tallys on par with other martials - whether it succeeds or needs redesign is a WHOLE other topic.


The problem with the monk is that the unarmed damage dice are a mechanic that is grandfathered from earlier editions of D&D. Back in the day, with the cruel, cruel dice gods holding their reign over the land, you rolled once for stats, and you were stuck with them. So you were just as likely to get a 3 as you were to get the 18 that so many clamor for with today's point buy.

Overall though, rolls tended towards the average (about 10.5). This meant that you had no modifier bonuses to damage. As such, you could only rely upon what your weapon could do. Damage dice were the kings of that age. So adding damage dice were a great thing at the time.

And heck, in those days, being 3/4 BAB with no bonuses to attack from your class was fine, since the game relied more on tactical bonuses from things like flanking, as well as buffs and enhancing items.

But that age has long past. Later editions and PF have raised the bar, and made stat reliable enough that you could work out what to make before hand. And now, static bonuses are the king of this age. And unfortunately, monks can normally provide no bonuses to attack (which, as others has pointed out, no longer meets par without flurry, and is still 'meh' with it), and the increase in damage from damage dice is both unreliable and frankly not that impressive.

Personally, I prefer sohei archetype, which forgoes increasing its damage dice in favor for weapon training and other cool stuff. While it can flurry in light armor, this does not give it better AC over a well equipped unarmored monk after early levels (I know, odd, but 2 stats to defense, and they can use wizardy items to increase defense too, which adds up with AC bonuses at later levels)....but I still like that change since it gives you another item slot (brawling armor gives a +2 to unarmed strike attack and damage) and opens up your wrist slot (it is usually take up by bracers of armor, but sohei would rather enjoy the fighter's Gloves of Dueling since they have weapon training- that is another +2 to attack and damage).

Overall, the sohei can get a +7 to attack and damage that normal monks would not see. That gives them enough of a bonus that they can reliably hit even without flurry of blows, and it makes them even stronger than fighters while still retaining perfect saves and 4+ skill points (plus cool things with ki).

And funnily enough, comparing the average damage of the basic unarmed strike (1d6~3.5) with the level 20 one (2d10~11)....the bonuses to damage that a sohei can enjoy put them on par for damage- and they do it without the randomness of damage dice while still getting bonuses to attack rolls that make it possible to even get those hits in.

Of course, the new brawler from ACG gets true full BAB and can find similar ways to get static bonuses. I still prefer sohei, personally, since it has perfect saves and cool ki things...but that is more of a preference thing. I think they are at least somewhat comparable power-wise in the right hands.


First, let me clear up what kinda game me and my friends play. For us, RPG is a mathematical dispute to see who can defeat the other using all the rules available, so we don't really care from where Monk's Ki comes from, if it's from his soul, his mind, his body, the spirit of his grampa or midichlorians, what we do care is that it does 2d10 base damage at lvl 20 (I said I personaly don't like this base damage gets bigger when they increase in size, but that's just my opinion).

With that in mind, I still belive the monk has the potential to be one of the strongest melee warriors. It has claw like base damage, no off-hand (all attacks do full STR damange, like a monster) and full BAB when Flurry. It's like, at lvl 20, he's a naked Ranger with 2 right arms, each holding a Fullblade.

He has access to some unique bonuses that other classes will have a hard time to get while it's easier for him to acquire other static bonuses to compensate for the other classes have that he doesn't. With a good combination of prestige class, archtype, Feats and magic items, he'll have all the other static bonuses the other classes have and more.

Althought alot of the above can be said for any class, the one thing that is really out of balance is the possibility of increasing the base unarmed damage exponentially by increasing in size. It's not pretty, but it's available and too temptative to not use in a tough situtation.

If I'm the DM, I'm inclined to say "No, you can choose between using a weapon size increased damgae or your base Monk unarmed damage (maybe with only 1 size increase), but not both.

Someone argued that you don't have to get Big if you don't want to. I probably wouldn't, but the problem is my friend may. That's why I think, at least, you should not be able to combine this Monk's base unarmed damage with obscenely size increases.

Aside from that, some of the Monks abilities some people complain are not that bad at all. The "No Armor" thing is not a curse, it can be a blessing. My chars normaly don't use armor because I always try to buff DEX for all the bonuses it provides. The Monk can use Braces of Armor or get a spell cast on him for the same purpose and still retain both his DEX and WIS bonus to AC. The WIS to AC is awesome, since it works against touch attacks, even when you're denied your DEX bonus to AC.

The MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) can be bad, but it can also be good, since he can benefit from more stat enhancement bonuses, a Amulet of Wisdom will do the Fighter no good.

Now that the Amulet of Mighty Fists costs twice as much the enchancent of normal weapons, the price is almost even with what any othe character would pay for 2 magic weapons.

I do agree that the fact that Monks "lose" the weapon slot is a problem. I like the idea of letting Monks use a "Magical Fire" that occupies no slot and works like his weapon for the purpose of magical enhancments and speical properties, but unfortunally you don't see much of that in the books. I don't know if the Monk was designed to have one less magical slot when fighting unarmed, supposedly for balance, but that feels unfair.

For the record, a well build Monk, with at least one base unarmed damage improvement while still at medium size, be it from something like Powerfullbuild, Improved Natural Attack or wtv, with an easy increase to Huge size, would have:

Lv.8 (Normal) 1d10 = 5.5 Dmg* --> Huge -> 3d8 = +13 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 6d8 = +27 Dmg*
Lv.8 (Improv) 2d8 == 9 Dmg* ----> Huge -> 4d8 = +18 Dmg* -> Gangant -> 8d8 = +36 Dmg*

Lv.12 (Normal) 2d6 = 7 Dmg* ----> Huge -> 4d6 = +14 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 8d6 = +28 Dmg*
Lv.12 (Improv) 3d6 = 10.5 Dmg* -> Huge -> 6d6 = +21 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 12d8 = +51 Dmg*

Lv.20 (Normal) 2d10 = 11 Dmg* --> Huge -> 6d8 = +27 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 12d8 = +51 Dmg*
Lv.20 (Improv) 4d8 = 18 Dmg* ----> Huge -> 8d8 = +36 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 16d8 = +69 Dmg*

*For comparison, a Longsword (1d8) does, on average, 4.5 damage (4 or 5).

As you can see, not only it escalates obcenely, that first increase from Powerfullbuild makes a huge difference in the end, which is probably why Jason and maybe other from Paizo decided Monks can't use it.

After this debate, I think in my games I'll just limit this escalation to only 1 size increase on damage. I don't like colossal players anyway.

Thank you all for your thoughts. Have a nice day ^^.

Scarab Sages

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Khevtol wrote:
and you being unable to wield a fist with two hands.

Speak for yourself Mr. Not-Captian-Kirk!


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Kchaka wrote:
First, let me clear up what kinda game me and my friends play. For us, RPG is a mathematical dispute to see who can defeat the other using all the rules available, so we don't really care from where Monk's Ki comes from, if it's from his soul, his mind, his body, the spirit of his grampa or midichlorians, what we do care is that it does 2d10 base damage at lvl 20 (I said I personaly don't like this base damage gets bigger when they increase in size, but that's just my opinion).

That's perfectly fine; but the problem with your questioning it comparatively is that your approach is absolutely at odds with the game's design philosophy. So questioning this on the back of "why do fists ever do as much damage as a sword?" whilst saying you don't care for the background flavour make the discussion impossible. Because the flavour is entirely why it happens. Balance is just a happy accident that does (or doesn't) happen.

Quote:
With that in mind, I still belive the monk has the potential to be one of the strongest melee warriors. It has claw like base damage, no off-hand (all attacks do full STR damange, like a monster) and full BAB when Flurry. It's like, at lvl 20, he's a naked Ranger with 2 right arms, each holding a Fullblade.

Consider the following; does the Monk get any means to boost his chance to hit an enemy beyond BAB? Because a Ranger does. So does a Fighter. Same for Paladin, Barbarian and well, every other full-BAB class.

Before I even consider the damage bonuses, that is a huge gain. Entirely because of the fact that hitting an enemy is binary; damage is more variable. But, simplistically, if someone has a mere +1 bonus over you, that's 5% more chance to hit. Meaning that to compare damage, you should consider yours 5% lower when looking at theirs.
What makes it more impactual is that to Flurry, a monk is at full BAB-2. A Fighter will have 7, meaning he has a 35% greater chance to hit. That, on top of the commonality of DR, and the fighter (presumably) using a two-handed weapon; means that the Monk, comparing RAW damage, should probably have a multiplier of 0.6 when looked at against the fighter.
Who is, I must remind, commonly regarded as a weak class.

Quote:
He has access to some unique bonuses that other classes will have a hard time to get while it's easier for him to acquire other static bonuses to compensate for the other classes have that he doesn't. With a good combination of prestige class, archtype, Feats and magic items, he'll have all the other static bonuses the other classes have and more.

Personally, I'd like to lay down a gauntlet on this part (which argues against the above); post such a Monk.

Quote:
For the record, a well build Monk, with at least one base unarmed damage improvement while still at medium size, be it from something like Powerfullbuild, Improved Natural Attack or wtv, with an easy increase to Huge size, would have:

I have kind of laid it on thick already but I feel a need to make it explicit anyway;

You are ignoring a massive variable when you focus only on damage. Doing so really reduces the validity of the data given. It'd be like saying a car should reach X*10^3MPH due to the horsepower because you didn't account for friction.


Although monks might start out as Bruce-Lee type fighters, they very quickly move into mythical/magical tropes where they eventually transcend their mortal bodies into perfection.

Trying to apply physical logic or make comparisons to swords with that kind of concept is pointless.


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Kchaka wrote:

For the record, a well build Monk, with at least one base unarmed damage improvement while still at medium size, be it from something like Powerfullbuild, Improved Natural Attack or wtv, with an easy increase to Huge size, would have:

Lv.8 (Normal) 1d10 = 5.5 Dmg* --> Huge -> 3d8 = +13 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 6d8 = +27 Dmg*
Lv.8 (Improv) 2d8 == 9 Dmg* ----> Huge -> 4d8 = +18 Dmg* -> Gangant -> 8d8 = +36 Dmg*

Lv.12 (Normal) 2d6 = 7 Dmg* ----> Huge -> 4d6 = +14 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 8d6 = +28 Dmg*
Lv.12 (Improv) 3d6 = 10.5 Dmg* -> Huge -> 6d6 = +21 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 12d8 = +51 Dmg*

Lv.20 (Normal) 2d10 = 11 Dmg* --> Huge -> 6d8 = +27 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 12d8 = +51 Dmg*
Lv.20 (Improv) 4d8 = 18 Dmg* ----> Huge -> 8d8 = +36 Dmg* -> Gargant -> 16d8 = +69 Dmg*

*For comparison, a Longsword (1d8) does, on average, 4.5 damage (4 or 5).

This chart of yours is all wrong. First of all, you're missing the Large size category. Secondly, doubling of dice isn't ever part of the progression. A Medium monk would do 2d10. A Large one 4d8. There are no explicit rules for sizing up 4d8, but you can look at the Improved Natural Attack progression and decide it's just a doubling of the 1d10 track, so a Huge monk would go to 6d8, and a Gargantuan monk to 8d8.

The other things you're not factoring in here are the flat damage to hit and the value of attack bonus. At a minimum, the fighter (for example) at level 20 will have a +5 weapon (with +5 of other useful properties), +5 from weapon training, and +2 to hit and +4 to damage from the Weapon Specialization feats (assuming they don't take better ones). He'll also have +1 to the crit mod of their weapon and automatically confirm crits. By contrast, the monk will just have +5 from an AoMF. And that assumes both characters max out their Strength scores, which is much easier for the fighter than the monk (due to less competition for resources).

Ignoring strength and size bonuses to keep the math simple, a gargantuan fighter with a longsword would have a +32/+27/+22/+17 to hit and do 3d6+14 (19-20/x3) damage. An equivalent monk would have a +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 to hit and do 8d8+5 (20/x2).

The damage formula per round is:

The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

Assuming an AC of 36 (which is average for a CR 20 monster), h is (32-36 = -4 -> -20% -> 80% to hit for the fighter's first attack, and (23-36 = -13 -> -65% -> 35% to hit for the monk's first attack. s is irrelevant here.

Fighter: .80*(24.5)+.1*2*1.00*24.5 = 24.5 average damage
Monk: .35*(41)+.05*1*.35*41 = 15.0675 average damage

But wait - doesn't the monk get more attacks?

Fighter progression: 80%/75%/70%/65%
Monk progression: 35%/35%/30%/30%/25%/25%/20%

Plugging those in produces 24.5 + 23.275 + 22.05 + 20.825 = 90.65 for the fighter and 15.0675*2 + 12.915*2 + 10.7625*2 + 8.61 = 86.1 for the monk, who misses a lot.

If you're fighting a AC 30 monster (-6 AC), the monk does better. The per-attack damage is about even (28.175 vs 27.9825), but the monk gets more hits in (even their worst has a 50% chance of hitting).
Plugging these in, the fighter does 112.7 damage in the round. The monk does 176.505. On the other hand, if you're fighting an AC 42 monster (+6 AC), the monk may as well go home. (61.25 for the fighter, 19.3725 for the monk)

Also, keep in mind that this is without any useful optimization. The Fighter is only using his longsword one-handed. That means he's not two-handing it for 50% more strength on his four attacks compared to the monk. If they're both using Power Attack, the Fighter's not benefiting more from wielding it 2H, but benefits from the damage more because he has more attack bonus to burn. Neither one took any useful feats, and the Fighter gets many more feats than the monk.

In other words, a suboptimal fighter is at least as strong as a monk. If you think otherwise, you're welcome to enter the DPR olympics I linked.


How are you getting to gargantuan with just monk abilities?


1) It worked.
2) These are monks who use 'magic' of some kind and that damage increase was an in game representation of the genre where they can shatter stone with their fists.
3) Base weapon dice damage is only really a major factor at the lower levels of the game. Later on it static numerical additions combined with large critical thresholds and multipliers that make the real damage. Two things that it is extremely hard for a monks HTH damge to improve as easily and economically as a warrior type who can buy a new weapon.
4) When the classes were originally written, size increasing for damage die boosts was not a common or staple tactic.
5) It's cool.

Allowing 'increasing size and using other spells to buff that up to bizzarish 12d8+ base damages' falls under rule 0. If this is a problem at your game bring it up with your group and tell them how you feel and fix it along with your GM.

If you are the GM and this is a problem in your game explain why to your players and then rule so it works the way you want it to work for the game you want to play and the play balance you like.

From your post it seems pretty obvious it is not the monk damage die that is the problem, it is the unfettered size increasing that is.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
How are you getting to gargantuan with just monk abilities?

I'm assuming buffs are at work here.

Admittedly, there is a PrC, the Brother of the Seal, which is a monk/ trapfinding rogue kind of deal that got cool things like awesome blow and they are treated as a size larger for unarmed strikes. So you can get to huge just with a wand of enlarge person here.


If you've got Mythic in the work, Titan Strike causes you to count as one size larger on your dice as well.

If Improved Natural Attack worked like it used to, that would be another step as well. That'd take us up to Gargantuan without any buffs other than Enlarge Person.


Khevtol wrote:


If we're bringing logic into the question a better question might be why do people feel the need to makes characters that want to punch people in full suits of steel armor or creatures with inches of thick hide like dragons. Though that can be taken further too.

Because it is awesome. I think that sums it up really.

Tyvm for that link. I have been reading those all day so far and got quite a few years to go. :-)

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