MightyJim |
I've pulled this quote out of the blessing of Erastil thread, as it seemed too much of a diversion to fit there...
Was wondering about only 1 inflict in the spells, but it looks like there's more divine damage around in the base set here.
what are the divine damage spells? (I'm in UK, so no new cards since RotR 6)
From what I can recall, in RotR there was Inflict, Holy Light, Swipe and Sign of Wrath, and that was basically it for the whole AP.
Can anyone with S&S (or even the class decks) shed some light on new divine attack spells? I know we had one in the class deck preview article, but I'm guessing there must be more to make the new Cleric of Nethys playable.
Mike Selinker Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer |
Theryon Stormrune |
Here's the thing ... there really isn't a Divine or Arcane Attack. There isn't Divine or Arcane Damage. There are spells with the Attack trait. Also, on those spells should be Arcane or Divine or both traits. Just like Fire, Cold, Force, Mental (etc.) traits, they just flavor the type of attack they are. Just like other threads have stated, the damage they cause is Combat Damage with other traits added in.
If you think about it, the Arcane or Divine might not make much difference right now if it isn't on S&S cards, but probably for Wrath, the Divine trait might be extra damage.
I've looked at the spells that Mike mentioned. None talk about the damage they cause or that they are Divine attacks. Look at weapons ... slashing, piercing, etc. Also the Swashbuckling trait is important in S&S. So get rid of the idea of Divine Attacks.
Andrew K |
Um... no Theryon. We all understand that Divine is a trait, Arcane is a trait, and Attack is a trait. We all know (or at least, should) know that when someone asks about divine damage spells, or divine attack spells, that they are asking about spells that deal damage, and don't need to be banished if you have the Divine skill.
They aren't Divine Attacks, but they are in fact Divine Attack spells. The traits define it. A buckler is a Shield Armor. Force Missile is an Arcane Attack spell.
Also, it does matter whether they are on the cards, as there are characters in class decks that have power relying on spells with both the Divine and Attack trait, and later adds Arcane into the mix.
Arcane and Divine are very important. They also tell that there is a typo if a card has Divine and Arcane, but can only be recharged with Arcane. Most likely it was wrong and is supposed to also recharge on Divine.
Theryon Stormrune |
I think you misunderstood me when I was talking about it not making much difference that they're on the card ... I meant that it doesn't seem like the Divine trait does extra damage yet (like some Fire trait spells on Monsters or the Cold trait). But I have a feeling that in WotR, Divine might be more significant.
And I mentioned "both" for cards like Augury which have both Arcane and Divine traits and can be recharged with either.
And Force Missle is a spell that is Magic (duh), Arcane, an Attack with Force. Oh, and it's Basic. When I teach people the game, I try to emphasize that the Traits on the cards apply to what attributes that type of card is. So if it is a weapon or armor or item or spell. The traits are the attributes that apply to that type.
And while we read this as an Arcane Attack Spell, I try to make sure the player understands that all the traits are important. Because some will influence greater or lesser effects and/or damage.
mlvanbie |
So get rid of the idea of Divine Attacks.
Divine Attacks are relevant to at least two characters:
When you would recharge a spell that has both the Divine and Attack traits, you may place it on top of your deck instead.
□ Add 2 (□ 4) to your check to recharge (□ or acquire) a spell that has the Attack trait.
Alahazara Tempest does have a way to use this on Arcane spells, but it requires another feat.
Theryon Stormrune |
Theryon Stormrune wrote:So get rid of the idea of Divine Attacks.Divine Attacks are relevant to at least two characters:
Zarlova (Class Deck Cleric) wrote:When you would recharge a spell that has both the Divine and Attack traits, you may place it on top of your deck instead.
What I see is "a spell that has both the Divine and Attack traits". That's what I've been saying, it doesn't state Divine Attack.
Nefrubyr |
Here's the thing ... there really isn't a Divine or Arcane Attack. There isn't Divine or Arcane Damage. There are spells with the Attack trait. Also, on those spells should be Arcane or Divine or both traits. Just like Fire, Cold, Force, Mental (etc.) traits, they just flavor the type of attack they are. Just like other threads have stated, the damage they cause is Combat Damage with other traits added in.
If we're being pedantic, spells with the Attack trait don't cause damage at all (well, Sign of Wrath maybe). Banes don't take damage, they simply have checks that you need to succeed at. Most Attack spells tell you what to roll on your combat check.
Only characters take damage (causing you to discard cards), and the type of that damage is determined by the bane you just failed to defeat. I don't know of any spells or weapons that affect the type of damage that a bane deals to you.
Actually that sounds like a fun bit of design space: "If you fail the check, the bane deals an additional 1d4 Fire damage to you". That'll teach you to set stuff on fire.
Orbis Orboros |
In the S&S base set (I don't have the add-on yet) here are the divine spells that can make combat checks (the gist of them anyway):
Fireblade x2
Fire Trait
Divine die +2d4
Inflict x1
[I forget the name, but something like Icy Blast] x2
Arcane / Divine
Cold Trait
Divine or Arcane die + 1d6
When that monster deals damage, reduce it by one.
Hydraulic Push x1
Divine die + 1d6, 2d6 instead if it's an aquatic bane.
Holy Stone (I think it's called) x2
Roll your Divine, Wisdom, or Ranged die + d6+1
[EDIT: Thanks, Mechalibur] Burning Sphere x2
Arcane / Divine
Fire Trait
Display when you encounter a monster, discard at end of turn.
You may roll your Arcane or Divine die + 1d6 for your combat checks; you may discard this card to add another d6.
Orbis Orboros |
The fire one is Burning Sphere I think... it's pretty sweet! Sort of like a better version of Scorching Ray from the RotRL set.
It's better in every way (except perhaps recharge/acquire).
Best of all (to me), it's Divine as well as Arcane! :D
Orbis Orboros |
And your skill die +1d6+1 isn't all that great anyway. I'd rather have skill +2d4, and that's basic (fireblade)...
Orbis Orboros |
Yeah, it's... not very good. Maybe if like, Lirianne happens to acquire it (she has d12 wisdom, so it's not that unlikely) she could maybe use it to beat an easy enemy.
And then it gets banished. It seems steeped in mediocrity. I don't know, maybe when new characters come out... but it's in S&S, so that design doesn't make a lot of sense.
Oh well. The others please me greatly. I was very annoyed at how few Divine attack spells there were in RotR. Two of them that were basic (and mediocre at that)?! Come on!
Orbis Orboros |
Well, how many Divine attack spells are there in the RPG? Divine is generally not attack-oriented, hence the limited numbers and "mediocrity" (I prefer to think of it as "accurate representation").
I understand that Divine attack spells should be fewer and more limited than Arcane spells. I never complained about Inflict being much weaker at skill +1d6 than the basic Arcane spells at skill +2d4. What irked me is that there were two force missles, two lightning touches, two acid arrows, two scorching rays, and two frost rays (10) versus two inflicts and two holy lights (4). That's just silly, especially when they started making characters like Alahazra and Zarlova. Weaker and fewer is fine, just give us enough at decent enough strength to get by (which S&S is doing).
Orbis, the other missing spell name is "Frost Bite," I believe.
That sounds right. I can't edit the post though since it's been an hour.
nondeskript |
I think the Divine casters in RotR didn't really need as many attack spells, though. Kyra and Seelah both start with Melee +2 on a d8, Lem has Arcane spells and Lini will start with 2d4 or d6+d4 99% of the time. Ezren and Seoni start with a d6 and a d4 respectively. And every Divine caster can get (or already has) weapon proficiency. Neither of the Arcane exclusives ever can.
JBiggs78 |
I was reading through the Paladin spell list this morning for the RPG and they did not have access to a single attack oriented spell that I could see in a quick run through in the core rule book. I could have possibly missed inflict, but I didn't see it. I have yet to really make my way through the cleric list as I haven't messed around with creating one. I have read that Oracles are generally better suited to support roles in the RPG, but I haven't really gone through their spell lists either.
Now... when you go through the wizard/sorceror spell lists... arcane casters have damage dealing spells all over.
I think that stating the spell breakdown for RotR was accurate to the abilities of divine casters in general in the RPG would be a fair assessment. If you want to cure light wounds, call your divine caster... you want to blast somebody in the face with fire... look for a sorcerer.
JBiggs78 |
The thing is that in the ACG, there's less of a story and more of a game - if your cleric is just there to heal and stuff, they don't get to play much. They're just not similiar enough to do things the same way. Divine casters need their attack spells too.
I get where you're at with it and I realize that the card game does not, and is not intended to perfectly mirror the RPG proper, but I don't think it makes sense to make divine casters something they are not either. From what I've seen you can definitely make a cleric a little more attack oriented, but I would hate to see them ramp it up to where there was little difference between a wizard and a cleric. If you do that, then you might as well give wizards and sorcerers readily available healing as well.
Andrew K |
At the same time though,this is based on the RPG. Yes,they're dissent games,but they can't stray too far or else it isn't Pathfinder. Especially when they're using the iconics. Kyra is Kyra, Valeros is Valeros, and Seoni is Seoni. They can't take someone who does nothing but heal and all of a sudden say "You know what, you're going cast spells that do a bunch of killing, because this is the card game".
Flat the Impaler |
That's just silly, especially when they started making characters like Alahazra and Zarlova.
You're using characters created after RotR to justify the need to for more in RotR?
As nondeskript said, there didn't need to be more divine attack spells in RotR because the characters in the box weren't as reliant on their spells. On the Arcane side, this wasn't true, which is why there are ton of basic Arcane spells (which is also true of the RPG spell lists).
In S&S (and later), there are more characters whose divine magic is their primary means of fighting; the need is greater now so we're getting more now.
nondeskript |
It may be my background with the RPG, but I feel that Arcane and Divine Magic should feel different in this game. One of my misgivings about S&S thus far is that the distinction between the two doesn't feel as sharp. Perhaps later APs make the two 'schools' diverge a bit.
I sometimes wish Divine Spells & Arcane Spells were distinct card types (ignoring the huge amount of hassle that would create with setup, location lists, cards that are both etc.) It is odd that, because they are both the same type of card, if your Arcane caster ends up banishing one of her spells (such as to close a location) and the only spell acquired in the game was Divine, she is stuck with a Divine spell that she'll have to banish in the next scenario.
Having said that, I think the way it was designed works better overall for quite a few reasons, but that one thing always bugged me.
Orbis Orboros |
I guess the difference is that I put gameplay before everything else. Everything.I don't care how ridiculous a thing sounds, how stupid it looks, if the game needs it, it should get it. AFTER that is covered, we can look at making it match up with the lore.
I also think I'm (mostly if not completely) right to assert that there was a need for more divine attack spells in RotR. It was supposed to be designed so that any 4 (or even 6) characters could play together. I don't think that there were enough divine attack spells to begin with for Lini, but there certainly wasn't enough if you played her with another divine caster who might have wanted an Inflict themselves.
Now this point I certainly see being arguable, but I don't think it would have been too hard to foresee the addition of attack oriented divine casters to be released later. Several people already played Lini that way, if nothing else - no, actually, I retract this statement. I'm looking at this given what I know now; when RotR came out, they didn't know it was going to be a hit. I concede this point.
It may be my background with the RPG, but I feel that Arcane and Divine Magic should feel different in this game. One of my misgivings about S&S thus far is that the distinction between the two doesn't feel as sharp. Perhaps later APs make the two 'schools' diverge a bit.
I wanted to reply to this specifically. IF we take for a moment it on faith that there needs to be a reasonable amount of Divine Attack spells for game balance, then look at it this way - combining some of the attack spells into Arcane/Divine both allows them more room for other, cooler spells. Again, I see this as a worthy sacrifice for the sake of the game.
Personally, I think as long as the better support cards are saved for Divine and the better attack cards are saved for Arcane it's all good. In this respect I think the only thing they did wrong so far in S&S was make Fireblade (just as bood as the basic Arcane attacks, instead of worse like Inflict) and Burning Sphere should probably have been Arcane only. That said, I'm happy to see them anyway like they are because I like playing Divine casters AND killing stuff.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
Well, lore-wise, druids can use a lot of attack spells, just not quite as many as a wizard/sorcerer. It's really clerics and oracles that have very little in the way of magic attacks. And bards - the bard spell list is almost all support. But finely distinguishing things to that level would be impractical.
Most druid attack spells use fire or lightning. Both Fireblade and Burning Sphere have their druid equivalents in the RPG. From a game PoV in Runelords all the divine casters had other ways to fight - Kyra and Seelah have Melee, Lini has wild shape and animal bonuses, Harsk(if you even give him spells) has Ranged. Spells were meant to be a backup, at least in combat.
Skull&Shackles has a divine caster who is supposed to fight with her spells. So she needs to be at least as effective at it as an arcane caster, and the available cards need to be able to support that playstyle.
nondeskript |
And it is important to remember that while all of the characters are compatible with all of the sets, there are some who are clearly not going to be very good in certain sets. Any Divine caster who needs attack spells for damage won't do particularly well in RotR because there just aren't that many Divine Attack spells there. Just the same as how Jirelle won't be very good in RotR because there aren't any Swashbuckling cards or ships making two of her base powers completely useless. Lirianne won't have any Firearms in RotR making her much less useful. Damiel won't have many good Alchemical cards, making him much less useful. I suspect when WotR comes out, some of those characters won't work well in RotR or S&S as their powers will be more focused on those sets.
So even if they knew there would be more attack oriented divine casters released later, that doesn't mean they needed more Divine Attack spells in RotR, any more than they needed Firearm or Swashbuckling or better Alchemical cards. Just because you can use any given character with any set doesn't mean you should :)
JBiggs78 |
Well, lore-wise, druids can use a lot of attack spells, just not quite as many as a wizard/sorcerer. It's really clerics and oracles that have very little in the way of magic attacks. And bards - the bard spell list is almost all support. But finely distinguishing things to that level would be impractical.
Most druid attack spells use fire or lightning. Both Fireblade and Burning Sphere have their druid equivalents in the RPG. From a game PoV in Runelords all the divine casters had other ways to fight - Kyra and Seelah have Melee, Lini has wild shape and animal bonuses, Harsk(if you even give him spells) has Ranged. Spells were meant to be a backup, at least in combat.
Skull&Shackles has a divine caster who is supposed to fight with her spells. So she needs to be at least as effective at it as an arcane caster, and the available cards need to be able to support that playstyle.
I think I would actually like to see the distinctions to become a little more fine and to match the lore a little bit more. Maybe have upgrading your deck work a little closer to what organized play does or have class specific boons.
As I was going through the Druid spell list in the core rulebook, there really wasn't much in the way of spells in RotR that matched their spell list. You really couldn't make a full fledged Druid with a corresponding matching spell list really... other than cure and restoration. Some nature magic, the fire and lightning and etc... would have been cool... or earthquake.
Maybe after another AP or two we'll have enough in play that you could set your own box with guidelines for how many boons of each type and at each level that should be included so you could kinda set up an AP for your tastes that would more closely match the chosen classes... thinking out loud.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
At the risk of making Orbis' head explode, druids in the RPG don't even really get restoration. They get the lesser version, but that would be like an adventure 1 spell. Based on when Restoration the card starts coming up, it's the more advanced version that druids don't get.
Scrying is a thing druids get though. They wouldn't get any of the anti-undead attack spells like Holy Light.
But breaking down each spell into its own spell list subcategory should probably stay firmly in the realm of houserules.
Besides, once you delve into the RPG, there are all sorts of ways to mix up your class spell list. Some are obscure, and some are right in the core rules. For example, one could make an argument that the oracle should treat all spells with the Fire trait as divine or something like that. I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a version of her that has that.
Orbis Orboros |
At the risk of making Orbis' head explode, druids in the RPG don't even really get restoration. They get the lesser version, but that would be like an adventure 1 spell. Based on when Restoration the card starts coming up, it's the more advanced version that druids don't get.
OMG NO WAY FOR REALZ
...
Just kidding. Restoration doesn't do the same thing in the RPG (how can it - there aren't cards to draw!) so that doesn't bother me. Being a card that draws two cards is what I like about Restoration, nothing more. No, the only way that would bother me is if, when they get around to making the Druid Class Deck (crosses fingers), they didn't put Resto in it for that reason.
Although, to be honest, it's probably S&S Lini with Toad that would stop that. Although I feel that's the only worthwhile thing about her at the moment. But that's off topic.
Flat the Impaler |
No, the only way that would bother me is if, when they get around to making the Druid Class Deck (crosses fingers), they didn't put Resto in it for that reason.
For that matter, why not put Restoration in ALL of the class decks, even the for non-Divine casters? What does theme matter in a thematic game anyway. ;)
Orbis Orboros |
Orbis Orboros wrote:No, the only way that would bother me is if, when they get around to making the Druid Class Deck (crosses fingers), they didn't put Resto in it for that reason.For that matter, why not put Restoration in ALL of the class decks, even the for non-Divine casters? What does theme matter in a thematic game anyway. ;)
I just want it in one of them!
Just one!
Preferably a class I like!
So why not hope it'll be the class with my favorite character?
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
I dunno. Maybe Restoration is the Ancestral Recall of this game, doomed to never be reprinted due to its unforseen OPness.
Honestly I was surprised when I saw what Restoration did. A closer expression of the RPG spell would be like something that lets you recover buried cards, or something that let you overcome those "all your checks are X harder this turn" effects.
Orbis Orboros |
I dunno. Maybe Restoration is the Ancestral Recall of this game, doomed to never be reprinted due to its unforseen OPness.
I don't know what Ancestral Recall is, but I get the context. This, too, is what I fear.
Although it's not TOO bad, looking at the S&S cards. Things like Magical Haversack, Tot Flask, and Call Weapon all give me hope that I'll not miss it too much, should they not reprint it.
JBiggs78 |
ryric wrote:I dunno. Maybe Restoration is the Ancestral Recall of this game, doomed to never be reprinted due to its unforseen OPness.I don't know what Ancestral Recall is, but I get the context. This, too, is what I fear.
Although it's not TOO bad, looking at the S&S cards. Things like Magical Haversack, Tot Flask, and Call Weapon all give me hope that I'll not miss it too much, should they not reprint it.
Orbis... if your background is in Magic... then Ancestral should be like your favorite card... ever... One blue, draw three cards... that's it... nothing to see here...
Orbis Orboros |
Orbis Orboros wrote:Orbis... if your background is in Magic... then Ancestral should be like your favorite card... ever... One blue, draw three cards... that's it... nothing to see here...ryric wrote:I dunno. Maybe Restoration is the Ancestral Recall of this game, doomed to never be reprinted due to its unforseen OPness.I don't know what Ancestral Recall is, but I get the context. This, too, is what I fear.
Although it's not TOO bad, looking at the S&S cards. Things like Magical Haversack, Tot Flask, and Call Weapon all give me hope that I'll not miss it too much, should they not reprint it.
Ah. I think I do remember that, although I never saw it in person. Suspend card, right? Anyway:
A) Too broken. I like to draw, and I like good stuff, but let's avoid the auto-win stuff.
B) I have a little background in Magic, not much, nothing beyond casual play with friends. It's just that other people are more likely to have a bacground in Magic, so it makes for a better example when I try to make one. My background is more Yugioh, card game-wise; the better example to give me would be Pot of Greed (almost identical to pre-errata Restoration). My current game is Warmachine (no it's not a card game but there are similarities and it is my current main nerd game).
isaic16 |
JBiggs78 wrote:Orbis Orboros wrote:Orbis... if your background is in Magic... then Ancestral should be like your favorite card... ever... One blue, draw three cards... that's it... nothing to see here...ryric wrote:I dunno. Maybe Restoration is the Ancestral Recall of this game, doomed to never be reprinted due to its unforseen OPness.I don't know what Ancestral Recall is, but I get the context. This, too, is what I fear.
Although it's not TOO bad, looking at the S&S cards. Things like Magical Haversack, Tot Flask, and Call Weapon all give me hope that I'll not miss it too much, should they not reprint it.
Ah. I think I do remember that, although I never saw it in person. Suspend card, right? Anyway:
A) Too broken. I like to draw, and I like good stuff, but let's avoid the auto-win stuff.
B) I have a little background in Magic, not much, nothing beyond casual play with friends. It's just that other people are more likely to have a bacground in Magic, so it makes for a better example when I try to make one. My background is more Yugioh, card game-wise; the better example to give me would be Pot of Greed (almost identical to pre-errata Restoration). My current game is Warmachine (no it's not a card game but there are similarities and it is my current main nerd game).
The suspend card was Ancestral Vision, which was a newer card designed to give a reasonably powered version of Ancestral Recall. The original was printed in Alpha, before anyone understood how powerful card advantage was. It was part of a cycle of cards that gave 3 something for 1 mana. Let's see if you can figure out which one isn't like the others:
Healing Salve-Prevent 3 damage to a creatureGiant Growth-Give a creature +3/+3
Lightning Bolt-deal 3 damage
Dark Ritual-Gain 3 Mana
Ancestral Recall-Draw 3 Cards!!!!!!