Making a weapon finesse-able


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Grand Lodge

Is there a way to make a weapon finesse-able?


If you take a Swashbuckler level, you can take Slashing Grace, and then Martial Versatility if the weapon you want to finesse is not a one-handed slashing weapon.

But unless you take a level of Swashbuckler, I don't know any way to make a non-finesse weapon finessable.


RumpinRufus wrote:

If you take a Swashbuckler level, you can take Slashing Grace, and then Martial Versatility if the weapon you want to finesse is not a one-handed slashing weapon.

But unless you take a level of Swashbuckler, I don't know any way to make a non-finesse weapon finessable.

How does that work?

Slashing Grace turns a one-hand slashing into a one-hand piercing. (You also get DEX to damage.)

Martial Versatility allows you to take a single-weapon combat feat and apply it other weapons in that group.

Weapon Finesse applies to light weapons (not slash vs. pierce). Finesse and Grace both apply to a class of weapons, and not just one weapon.

Am I missing something here?


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Swashbuckler Finesse wrote:
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons
Martial Versatility wrote:
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Slashing Grace wrote:
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

So, when you take Slashing Grace, it makes a one-handed slashing weapon count as a piercing weapon, at which point Swashbuckler Finesse applies to it. Then by taking Martial Versatility for Slashing Grace, all weapons in the weapon group of that one-handed slashing weapon now count as one-handed piercing weapons, so Swashbuckler Finesse applies to them.

So, it's a little convoluted, but any weapon that it in the same weapons group as a one-handed slashing weapon (including any axes, heavy blades, light blades, or flails) can be made finessable.


RumpinRufus wrote:
...

Thanks. I missed the fact that this is not Weapon Finesse but Swashbuckler Finesse.

Grand Lodge

Any weapon in particular?


So, if I'm following correctly, and if my searches are correct, a Human Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 4 would be able to Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace with their choice of any weapon from the following fighter weapon groups:

Axes, Heavy Blades, Light Blades, Flails, Monk, or Spears

They wouldn't be able to do ALL of them (without lots of feat investment), but they would have their pick of weapon from any of those groups, which is what most builds do anyway.

EDIT: Also, I guess more importantly, he can wield any weapon from that group as a one-handed weapon.

RE-EDIT: Actually, I stand corrected. Slashing Grace wording states that you have to be wielding the chosen weapon one-handed. So you would have to have a way to wield a two-handed weapon (of your size; so no using a small one) in one hand.


If it is only about making it finesse-able one way to use a smaller version of it. Once it reaches "light" it becomes finesse-able.

Scarab Sages

I think the best one is a Swashbuckler 1/Phalanx Soldier 3 using a Fauchard and buckler. You can one hand all polearms and get dex to damage with them.


I'm not sure if a Swashbuckler 1/Phalanx Soldier 3 would qualify for Martial Versatility.

You have to be a 4th level Fighter. Swashbuckler doesn't gain the "Swashbuckler levels are considered Fighter levels for the purpose of meeting Combat feat prerequisites" ability until they get their first bonus feat at 4th level.

Scarab Sages

I suppose you could take the fourth fighter level, but I think you would be better in the long run by going back to swashbuckler and wait for Swashbuckler 4 to pick up martial versatility. How many different polearms is one person going to carry around, anyway?

Another option that is nice is Slashing Grace (urumi) and then use martial versatility with flails. Urumi is a great primary weapon for a swashbuckler, and Morningstars are a great backup weapon due to being B AND P instead of B or P.

Grand Lodge

Sibat is a good choice for Slashing Grace/Martial Versatility.

Dex to damage with all Spears is decent.


Imbicitus, blackbloodtroll, that's basically what I was getting at with my last post. The various weapons in the various groups I listed could make for some interesting, possibly niche, possibly broken, builds if done correctly.

The way the feat is worded, if you wield one of the weapons one-handed, you get to treat it as a one-handed weapon. This means that, even f the way you find to wield a two handed weapon in one hand would incur penalties for doing so, you wouldn't take the penalties after applying this feat, because now you get to treat it as a one handed weapon.

As has been mentioned, Phalanx Soldier can do it with spears. There is also Lighten Weapon, though that is 3rd party. I cant think of any others off the top off my head, but Im sure there are more ways to wield a two handed weapon in one hand. This could lead to wonky builds, like dual-wielding greatswords.

Also, how would one-handing a double weapon work?

Grand Lodge

Titan Mauler.


It's a little questionable whether Titan Mauler would allow you to do that.

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

The ability is ambiguously worded - it's apparently not treated as one-handed for all purposes, only for purposes of "the like" of Power Attack and Strength bonus to damage. Both of those give penalties, mind you. So it would be up to your GM whether Slashing Grace is "the like" of Power Attack and Str to damage.


Choose a weapon that was finesseable in the first place. It is not a small list.


Human Swashbuckler 1/ Phalanx Soldier 4 can use his 8 feats, (that's including Swash-Finesse) to get Nodachi with Slashing Grace.

1. Swash-Finesse, Weapon Focus Nodachi, Two Weapon Fighting
2. Two Weapon Defense
3. Weapon Focus Sibat, Feat? (retrain Feat? at 4th Phalanx level to Martial Versatility for Slash Grace group?)
4.
5. Weapon Specialization, Slashing Grace (retrain Two Weapon Defense at 5th level using Retraining rules, for Martial Versatility again for W.Focus group)

Since

This will now, if you grab 2 Martial Versatility feats, to include all polearms/spears to gain Slashing Grace and Weapon Focus, also all heavy blades to also gain Slashing Grace and Weapon Focus.

Two weapon fighting can be switched out for whatever. Strap on a buckler and get your -1 on offhand attacks while dual weilding Nodachi's. Full Dex bonus damage on your offhand as well.

I think I did this right, let me know.


Eigengrau, I'm a bit confused in what you're doing. It looks like you're taking Slashing Grace with the sibat, which is a weapon that is only in the Spears weapon group. So it's not clear how you'd be using Martial Flexibility to get Slashing Grace for either Polearms or Heavy Blades.


Umbranus wrote:
If it is only about making it finesse-able one way to use a smaller version of it. Once it reaches "light" it becomes finesse-able.

Slashing grace sadly specifies must be proper sizes.

Assuming you wantes to use it with that set up.


One handed is the issue. Nodachi does not fit that category. Slashing Grace's wording is actually pretty specific. When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon.

It limits your options on what can and cannot be used on and how it can be used, and it does not actually mean it make it finesse-able unless you have the Swashbuckler finesse feature, or the weapon is naturally finesse-able.

Weapons that are naturally finesse-able and do slashing damage I think is limited to only Aldori-Dueling sword and the Bug Saber (With Exotic Weapon Prof, of course). If your ready to spend more feats into the effort (IE Exotic weapon Prof), you could use it with most of the exotic weapon one handed table (All that do Slashing of course), which opens up a list of options.

Bastard Sword and Falcata both being very interesting options imo.

I have serious doubts about the legality of martial flexing into this combo. For certain you still must meet the one handed specification regardless. Its already been posted that a piercing version of SG, will come out in October. But I would ask your GM or venture captain before using Martial Flexibility to qualify for SG.

Grand Lodge

I don't have my ACG on me at the moment, but can I TWF with swashbuckler finesse? I was wanting to use sawtooth sabres and not have it be a strength build.


Hitokiriweasel wrote:
I don't have my ACG on me at the moment, but can I TWF with swashbuckler finesse? I was wanting to use sawtooth sabres and not have it be a strength build.

Yes, but you do not get Precise Strike damage.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Eigengrau, I'm a bit confused in what you're doing. It looks like you're taking Slashing Grace with the sibat, which is a weapon that is only in the Spears weapon group. So it's not clear how you'd be using Martial Flexibility to get Slashing Grace for either Polearms or Heavy Blades.

Argh. I was so tired when I wrote that.

I had mistakenly confused Tiger Fork and Sibat. I was thinking that Sibat was Polearm and Spears group like the Tiger Fork. It'd take to long to explain what I was trying to do, which is wrong anyway. Sorry.

However with the following build I should be able to use a Nodachi with Slashing Grace. Nodachi is a Heavy Blade and a Polearm. Phalanx Soldier at level 3 can use any polearm as a 1-handed weapon while using a shield.
So strapping on a buckler and taking a -1 to hit w/my off hand attack, I could dual wield them both.

Swashbuckler 1 / Phalanx Soldier 4 Human.

1. Swashbuckler Finesse, Weapon Focus Nodachi, Two weapon fighting
2. Two Weapon Defense
3. Any 2 Feats here (these feats will be retrained at level 5)
4.
5. Martial Versatility (W.Focus), Slashing Grace.

So at level 5 I retrain my 2 feats that I got at level 3 and my 2nd level feat to Weapon Specialization and Martial Versatility (Slashing Grace), and Martial Versatility (W.Specialization). This will now get me Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace & Weapon Specialization with every Heavy Blade & Polearm.

So if I did dual wield Nodachis, I'd be at a -1 to hit on my offhand due to wearing a buckler. However I'd be happy with that due to getting my full Dex bonus on damage with my offhand, where a STR based person could not.

Now none of this is possible without Phalanx Soldier of course. I think I got it better explained this time.


No where in the Slashing Grace Feat does it say that you need the Swashbuckler's Finesse version of Weapon Finesse.

Quote:


Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing
weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your
chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a
one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and
class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a
swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can
add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be
one appropriate for your size.

If the feat required Swashbuckler's Finesse it would say it in the Prerequisites instead of standard Weapon Finesse.


Zwordsman wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
If it is only about making it finesse-able one way to use a smaller version of it. Once it reaches "light" it becomes finesse-able.

Slashing grace sadly specifies must be proper sizes.

Assuming you wantes to use it with that set up.

The OP only asked about making a weapon finesse-able. That is what I answered to. That the threat was derailed to a slashing grace discussion has nothing to do with it.


I think the point of swashbuckler's finesse was that it applies to a whole hell of a lot more weapons than weapon finesse does.
Weapon finesse applies only to light weapons and like 3? none light ones.
Swashbuckler finesse applies to all one handed and light piercing weapons. I haven't looked but there are probably a few light weapons that aren't covered by swash finesse though.

The thread was asking about making various weapons finesseable, and that opens up a lot more weapon trees for that versatility feat.


ngc7293 wrote:

No where in the Slashing Grace Feat does it say that you need the Swashbuckler's Finesse version of Weapon Finesse.

Quote:


Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing
weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your
chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a
one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and
class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a
swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can
add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be
one appropriate for your size.

If the feat required Swashbuckler's Finesse it would say it in the Prerequisites instead of standard Weapon Finesse.

Swashbuckler Finesse and all its variants (Daring Champion etc) specifically says it counts as weapon finesse for the purposes of feat requirements.


Eigengrau wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Eigengrau, I'm a bit confused in what you're doing. It looks like you're taking Slashing Grace with the sibat, which is a weapon that is only in the Spears weapon group. So it's not clear how you'd be using Martial Flexibility to get Slashing Grace for either Polearms or Heavy Blades.

Argh. I was so tired when I wrote that.

I had mistakenly confused Tiger Fork and Sibat. I was thinking that Sibat was Polearm and Spears group like the Tiger Fork. It'd take to long to explain what I was trying to do, which is wrong anyway. Sorry.

However with the following build I should be able to use a Nodachi with Slashing Grace. Nodachi is a Heavy Blade and a Polearm. Phalanx Soldier at level 3 can use any polearm as a 1-handed weapon while using a shield.
So strapping on a buckler and taking a -1 to hit w/my off hand attack, I could dual wield them both.

Swashbuckler 1 / Phalanx Soldier 4 Human.

1. Swashbuckler Finesse, Weapon Focus Nodachi, Two weapon fighting
2. Two Weapon Defense
3. Any 2 Feats here (these feats will be retrained at level 5)
4.
5. Martial Versatility (W.Focus), Slashing Grace.

So at level 5 I retrain my 2 feats that I got at level 3 and my 2nd level feat to Weapon Specialization and Martial Versatility (Slashing Grace), and Martial Versatility (W.Specialization). This will now get me Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace & Weapon Specialization with every Heavy Blade & Polearm.

So if I did dual wield Nodachis, I'd be at a -1 to hit on my offhand due to wearing a buckler. However I'd be happy with that due to getting my full Dex bonus on damage with my offhand, where a STR based person could not.

Now none of this is possible without Phalanx Soldier of course. I think I got it better explained this time.

If you sat down at my table I wouldn't let that fly. Phalanx solider says nothing about making all polearms counting as one handed weapons. It just says that you can use one in your primary hand as a one handed weapon when your carrying a shield. That does not make a polearm in your offhand count as one handed weapon


However, the combination of Martial Versatility + Slashing Grace allows you to apply Slashing Grace to all the weapons in a weapon group. Slashing Grace says that while you are wielding that weapon one-handed, you get to treat it as a one-handed weapon. So, since Phalanx Soldier allows you to wield a spear/polearm in one hand, Slashing Grace then allows you to treat it as a one-handed weapon.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
ngc7293 wrote:

No where in the Slashing Grace Feat does it say that you need the Swashbuckler's Finesse version of Weapon Finesse.

Quote:


Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing
weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your
chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a
one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and
class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a
swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can
add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be
one appropriate for your size.

If the feat required Swashbuckler's Finesse it would say it in the Prerequisites instead of standard Weapon Finesse.

it just so happens that weapon finesse and the weapons you can apply slashing grace to don't really overlap at all unless your a swashbuckler.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
RaizielDragon wrote:
However, the combination of Martial Versatility + Slashing Grace allows you to apply Slashing Grace to all the weapons in a weapon group. Slashing Grace says that while you are wielding that weapon one-handed, you get to treat it as a one-handed weapon. So, since Phalanx Soldier allows you to wield a spear/polearm in one hand, Slashing Grace then allows you to treat it as a one-handed weapon.

you only treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon.


Bandw2 wrote:


it just so happens that weapon finesse and the weapons you can apply slashing grace to don't really overlap at all unless your a swashbuckler.

I can play Barbarian, and use a Longsword and take the feats, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus and later Slashing grace and I don't need to be a Swashbuckler for this to work.

Slashing Grace is not Swashbuckler specific.


Except that Weapon Finesse wouldn't work on your Longsword


RaizielDragon wrote:
Except that Weapon Finesse wouldn't work on your Longsword

Point taken, but if nothing in this feat makes sense then this thread didn't make sense from the start ;)

From there I don't think anyone (or me) should be trying to give advice on a book that makes no sense! my two cp.


RaizielDragon wrote:
However, the combination of Martial Versatility + Slashing Grace allows you to apply Slashing Grace to all the weapons in a weapon group. Slashing Grace says that while you are wielding that weapon one-handed, you get to treat it as a one-handed weapon. So, since Phalanx Soldier allows you to wield a spear/polearm in one hand, Slashing Grace then allows you to treat it as a one-handed weapon.

Martial Versatility doesn't come into play in that part.

I agree if you follow the the exact wording of Phalanx soldier you could get away with applying Slashing Gracing to a nodachi as it is a polearm, as it would be counting as a one handed slashing weapon assuming you had Swashbuckler finesses or its equivalent. But that does not mean you can suddenly duel wield them. It simply means that you can do it with one. Now I admit SGing a Nodachi is pretty good trick. But pulling it off take you until 5th level so I'm not overly concerned on the topic.

If your trying to use Martial Versatility to somehow make all polearms one handed nothing in ether the wording of the feat or the archetype indicates that to me. I could very be miss understanding what your saying, if so please explain.


It's basically because of the RAW of Martial Versatility.

You get to apply certain feats to all weapons in the same group, So since a Nodachi is both a polearm and a heavy blade you could apply SG to all of those weapons in both groups. However I'm on the side of the fence that says you'd best have a way to wield said weapons in accordance with Slashing Grace though.

@ ngc7293 Sure you can take the feats you mentioned to get Slashing Grace to work on your longsword and you'll receive DEX to damage only. You'll still have to use STR to hit with it unless you take a level in Swashbuckler or the Cavalier archetype equivalent to gain the Swashbuckler Finesse feature, which allows you to use any light or one-handed piercing weapon with DEX to attack rolls.

These posts were just exercising some theorycrafting revolving around the feat Slashing Grace.

I doubt I'd ever dual wield Nodachi's in this manner.


Eigengrau wrote:


@ ngc7293 Sure you can take the feats you mentioned to get Slashing Grace to work on your longsword and you'll receive DEX to damage only. You'll still have to use STR to hit with it unless you take a level in Swashbuckler or the Cavalier archetype equivalent to gain the Swashbuckler Finesse feature, which allows you to use any light or one-handed piercing weapon with DEX to attack rolls.

These posts were just exercising some theorycrafting revolving around the feat Slashing Grace.

Swashbuckler's Finesse only works with one-handed piercing weapons and Slashing Grace needs you to select a one handed slashing weapon.

Neither of these work together.

Or are you going to use the Dervish Dance idea that James Jacobs came up with that Weapon Finesse as a Prereq made sense?

Grand Lodge

Slashing Grace, is literally designed to be used with Swashbuckler's Finesse.

It allows you to use the selected weapon with Swashbuckler's Finesse.


What BBT said. Since Phalanx Soldier allows me to wield the Nodachi one-handed, it now is a one-handed slashing weapon... Since Slashing Grace lets you use any one-handed slashing weapon and treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon for ALL FEATS & CLASS ABILITIES that require the use of a one-handed piercing weapon and allows me to use DEX on damage, then the Swashbuckler Finesse now lets me treat it for DEX to attack as well.


Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for feat prerequisites, so a Human Swashbuckler 4 can take Martial Versatility. Sorry if this has been said already or if the conversation has moved past this point.


3 levels of Phalanx Fighter would definitely allow a Swashbuckler to finesse certain polearms, but it does not qualify a polearm for slashing grace.

I also don't believe Marital Versatility applies to Slashing Grace the way many people are claiming. If you take Marital Versatility you get Slashing Grace applied to all the one-handed slashing weapons in the group, but not other weapons.


Sgt Arpin wrote:
Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for feat prerequisites, so a Human Swashbuckler 4 can take Martial Versatility. Sorry if this has been said already or if the conversation has moved past this point.

I forgot about this part. However I still need to take 3 levels of Phalanx Soldier in order to gain the use of one-handed polearms.

It could be argued that since it only mentions that Swashbuckler levels count as fighter levels for feat qualifications in the "Bonus Feats at 4th level" paragraph for Swashbuckler, that you must be a 4th level Swashbuckler to count your levels as fighter levels though.


@ Hawktitan
I believe it would allow a polearm to be used with slashing grace.
Just like having a feat to make a bastard sword be used one-handed to apply. Just like having a feat to make katanas apply. It works.


Katanas and bastard swords are 1-handed slashing weapons, so yes slashing grace can apply.

A nodachi is a 2-handed weapon, which can be made finessable with 3 levels of phalanx fighter and 1 level of swashbuckler, but not dex to damage with slashing grace, with or without martial versitility.


Eigengrau wrote:

@ Hawktitan

I believe it would allow a polearm to be used with slashing grace.
Just like having a feat to make a bastard sword be used one-handed to apply. Just like having a feat to make katanas apply. It works.

The difference is, those weapons are listed in the rulebook as one-handed weapons. Whereas nodachi is listed as a two-handed weapon, and your character has a special ability that allows him to wield the two-handed weapon with one hand. It is not clear that having the ability to hold a two-handed weapon with one hand, makes that a "one-handed weapon" (and hence a weapon that Slashing Grace would apply to.)


Well until and even then, it's up to each individual GM to rule what he wants in his/her games.

Scarab Sages

You may be right about phalanx soldier. However, in that case you can simply take Titan mauler 2. You have a -2 to hit penalty, but Jotungrip specifically say you treat the weapon as a one handed weapon for feats and str bonus.


Imbicatus wrote:
You may be right about phalanx soldier. However, in that case you can simply take Titan mauler 2. You have a -2 to hit penalty, but Jotungrip specifically say you treat the weapon as a one handed weapon for feats and str bonus.

This was discussed earlier in the thread - Jotungrip says "and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like." Keep in mind, the listed effects apply penalties to using the Jotungrip. And it doesn't say that it is treated as one-handed for all purposes, only those of "the like" of Power Attack and Str bonus.

So, it's not clear from RAW whether Jotungrip + Slashing Grace works, it's up to the GM to decide if Slashing Grace is "the like" of Power Attack.

Grand Lodge

Daring Champion Cavalier is another option to pick up Swashbuckler's finesse. You get Precise Strike (and a bunch of other deeds) at 4th level, and Challenge 2/day for another +4 Damage. Flurry of Blows with a Monk weapon let's you get two weapon attacks without running afoul of Precise Strike's "no weapon in the other hand" clause.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Slashing Grace, is literally designed to be used with Swashbuckler's Finesse.

It allows you to use the selected weapon with Swashbuckler's Finesse.

The feat is counter intuitive and so is the swashbuckler ability when used with that feat. The only good replacement for slashing grace was fencing grace.

As with all things, it's up to the GM.

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